Backpacking and 25 yards hunting handgun 45 ACP, 45 Super, 10mm?

[huntersdog]

For a backpacking handgun for defense against possible black bear, and a 25-yard maximum deer Hunting handgun, would you go with the 45 ACP, 45 super or the 10mm? All ammo will be reloaded ammo.

For reloading what bullet would you choose to fit the bill on the above calibers?

Not interested in other calibers.

[Outpost75]

.45 ACP with proper load will do the job. 9 grains of Blue Dot and 250-grain cast lead flat-nose exceeds .45 Colt factory load. You can do better than a "Cowboy Bullet" there are LFNs designed for .45 ACP!

174936

Big advantage is that .45 ACP ammo is common and sold everywhere, not so for your other choices.

[Paul_R]

I only have 45 ACP. It would do IMHO but a +P load would remove any doubt.

[Shawlerbrook]

I voted 45ACP, but I would pick a 4" 357 mag. revolver.

[huntersdog]

.45 ACP with proper load will do the job. 9 grains of Blue Dot and 250-grain cast lead flat-nose exceeds .45 Colt factory load. You can do better than a "Cowboy Bullet" there are LFNs designed for .45 ACP!

174936

Big advantage is that .45 ACP ammo is common and sold everywhere, not so for your other choices.

Thank you very much for the load and bullet suggestion.

[huntersdog]

I only have 45 ACP. It would do IMHO but a +P load would remove any doubt.

I had read the advantage of some 45 ACP guns is if you fix your gun up with the little bigger recoil spring and that you can shoot 45 Super out of it, as the brass is the same size. I don't know what the reliability would be converting The Gun and shooting a 45 super out of it.

[Mk42gunner]

All three calibers would be suitable for the close range scenarios you list. I have not shot a .45 Super, but have lots of experience with the .45 ACP and 10mm.

The .45 advantage is projectile weight, probably not necessary for 25 yard whitetail, and it is easier to shoot.

The 10mm advantage is a round or two extra in the magazine, and longer range potential.

I would pick the one you shoot best.

Robert

[Bigslug]

230 grain flat point in the GI pressure/velocity range or slightly hotter. The LBT LFN is a great shooter, and will penetrate well enough. The 230 grain Ranch Dog tumble luber we've got a group buy going for at NOE is one I've got on the line to fill the same role without the need to size.

Too many possibilities for KABOOM with the .45 Super for my comfort. I dabbled years ago and concluded that this sort of thing belongs in the arena of the revolver.

10mm - good round, if logistically a bit challenging.

[ole 5 hole group]

1911 45 ACP with properly fitted oversized FPS, proper recoil spring shooting 230 to 265 grain bullets ahead of a safe quantity of VV N-350. For the 230 grain, not much equals the 230 grain Gold Dot - if you can find it, as a loading component.

[Outpost75]

Thank you very much for the load and bullet suggestion.

Speer Manual has data for 260-grain JHP in .45 ACP which can be used as a guide:

9 grs. Blue Dot 837 fps
6.9 grs. Herco 847 fps
6.4 Unique 822 fps
5.1 Red Dot 817 fps.

These all are standard pressure loads with jacketed, so you have some "wiggle room" to substitute a proper fitting cast bullet so as probably not to exceed +P.

[Hickok]

RCBS makes a real nice 230 FP 45 caliber mold. The meplat is large. It feeds well in my Kimber.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/images/product_images/044-82308/044-82308.jpg

[Paul_R]

I had read the advantage of some 45 ACP guns is if you fix your gun up with the little bigger recoil spring and that you can shoot 45 Super out of it, as the brass is the same size. I don't know what the reliability would be converting The Gun and shooting a 45 super out of it.

There's only one way to find out. I don't know anything about 45 Super but there is plenty of load data for 45ACP+P and at least with a 1911 it just requires a recoil spring change.

[Dan Cash]

.45 ACP is my go to pistol but---- for your stated purpose, and assuming brass is available, I would go 10mm with a 200 grain cast bullet driven like the early Norma round. Bullet does not need to be crazy hard and surely not hollow point. A good flat point/truncated cone that will feed 100% would be my choice. Failing that, I would use my standard 230 TC cast bullet in any of my 1911s.

[ReloaderFred]

Having seen a moderate sized blackbear (about 250 pounds guesstimated) shot with numerous rounds of .45 acp GI Ball ammo, it wouldn't be my first choice. Most of the rounds were found not far under the skin and penetration was very little. The bear was finished off with a .357 Magnum to the center of the skull.

The only reason the bear was shot with the .45 was the hikers were on the side of a slidehill, traversing across the face of the slide, when they came face to face with a blackbear that refused to retreat and wouldn't let them back down the very narrow trail. When they tried to back up, the bear became more aggressive for whatever reason, and they felt they had to shoot it, or fight it. The lead hiker was the one with the .45, and the trail was just wide enough for one person, so he emptied 3 magazines into the bear, with little visible effect. The second hiker was carrying a .357 Blackhawk, with 158 gr. Magnum SWC loads, and that's what finished the bear off. They peeled back the skin after the encounter to find out why the bear kept coming, and were amazed at how little penetration they got with the .45's. I came up on them at that point, and I was also amazed.

I live in blackbear country, and have encounters with them every summer right behind our house. We can't put out the trash the night before because of them and the raccoons...... I've seen a bear killed with a 9mm, shooting 147 gr. Black Talons, but it took 4 rounds and the bear still went about 150 yards before it bled out.

When I walk the dogs now, I carry either a .41 Magnum or a 10mm, with 200 gr. bullets loaded fairly warm. We've been trapped by a bear within 1/4 mile of our house before, and if you've never seen a large boar bear "posture" back and forth in front of you from about 20 yards, you haven't experienced how small a 9mm can feel in your hand, which is why I carry something bigger now.

Bears can be unpredictable and move really, really fast. The more power the better, but if you don't have to shoot one, that's even better. They don't always give you the choice, though, especially one that has lost it's fear of humans.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Artful]

The two main calibers are both good choices - I played with 45 Super years ago when Dean Grennell first introduced it to the world.

But for the money a Glock 10mm is hard to beat for what you describe, the more ammo on tap the better and Glock's 15 rounds would be comforting. While I'm not a Glock person in this case it is my advise to you.

The main thing is your bullet selection, on a black bear you need some penetration, Even more so if you run into something like a Hog. If you get caught up with something thinner skinned like a human or rabid dog you want expansion. I'd probably handload
10mm .400 180 gr HP XTP®http://www.hornady.com/store/10mm-.400-180-gr-HP-XTP/
http://www.hornady.com/assets/images/products/bullets/cutouts/bullets-XTP-cutaway.jpg

[35remington]

The suggestion that the 45 ACP can barely push a nonexpanding bullet to break a black bear's skin layer is, I will suggest, quite mistaken.

Color me unconvinced by the "story."

Having shot a fair amount of "stuff" including deer, with a 45 ACP, I know ball ammo is not "under penetrative" on human sized 250 lb critters. The anecdote makes a nice story, but story is all I consider it to be based on what I know. Sorry, but when a "story" I cannot personally verify comes out that is so utterly opposed to what I know.....I go with what I know.

Just how it is. My "story" is the 45 is not under penetrative with nonexpanding ammo. 250 lb bears included.

[jeepyj]

I voted 45ACP, but I would pick a 4" 357 mag. revolver.
^^^^^
i agree with this!

[Artful]

http://cj.supraspeed.com/Pics/Weapons/PistolPowerComparison.jpg

[KYCaster]

If you're gonna go into the woods undergunned, you may as well choose the one with a reputation for reliability and longevity, rather than one with a reputation for breaking parts.

45ACP

Jerry

[ReloaderFred]

35remington,

You can choose to believe my story or not, but I was there and you weren't. These were all frontal shots, and there was a definite lack of penetration.

As to bullet performance, I've seen many, many bullets removed at autopsies during my career, and despite what they do in water jugs, ballistic gelatin, etc., they're not predictable in the body. There are too many variables to contend with, for one thing. Clothing, bone, articles in pockets, muscle, etc. are just a few.

I worked a case where a suspect was killed with a .22 Short after knocking the **** out of his girlfriend. She shot him with what she had, which was that little pipsqueak of a gun, but he died all the same about 2 hours later. I've seen suspects shot numerous times with .38 and 9mm hollowpoints in the chest and upper torso and never loose consciousness. I've also seen one die from a full metal Jacket .32 acp bullet in the abdomen, again not an instant death, but dead all the same hours later. That's just a few that I've seen in person, but some of the bullets removed at autopsies were from cases I didn't handle, but as the former range master for our department, I was sometimes consulted by the Coroner's Office.

Like I said, it's a free country, and you can believe what you want, but predicting what a bullet will do in uncertain circumstances isn't an exact science.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[DougGuy]

There was the same discussion over on another forum about using the .45 ACP to hunt hogs. And I was like wha???? Why would you want to take a 1911 after a hog when there are so many more powerful rounds in a revolver that just doesn't make sense.

And now for your bear scenario, almost the same questions and answers. The .45 ACP is a GREAT manstopper. END OF STORY!

.45 Super marginally more powerful than .45 ACP+P, .460 Rowland much more powerful than either of those, this would be better bear and hog medicine but you have to convert the gun to the caliber for it to work right and be safe.

If you were shooting at a treed bear, and you had clear midsection shots, the .45 ACP will bring him down soon enough. Head on, charging bear, more muscle and bone between the muzzle of your gun and his boiler room, totally different scenario. The same 250gr WFN boolits loaded as hot as you can load them which get full broadsides penetration become much less effective once tables are turned.

I would not go into bear country armed with a 1911 as my primary sidearm no matter how hot it was loaded. Ruger revolver in .45 Colt, .44 magnum, yes. 1911 no.


Not interested in other calibers.

Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.

[JHeath]

I once shot a badger in tall grass with a Series 70 Gold Cup and 230 fmj, from about 70 feet. The badger then charged at me. I kept shooting, he slowed at about 20' as I fired the last round and the slide locked back. He collapsed about 10' in front of me. I didn't skin him, but counted at least 4 and probably 5 entrance wounds. This was a 25lb animal at most. There is no magic in the .45 acp. I would not care to face a 400lb bear with one, with any bullet type. The Danish Polar/Greenland services reportedly issue 10mm Sigs as last-ditch defense from polar bears. Personally if concerned with black bears I would look at a Smith M327 TRR8 and a heavy Keith type boolit.

[huntersdog]

There was the same discssion over on another forum about using the .45 ACP to hunt hogs. And I was like wha???? Why would you want to take a 1911 after a hog when there are so many more powerful rounds in a revolver that just doesn't make sense.

And now for your bear scenario, almost the same questions and answers. The .45 ACP is a GREAT manstopper. END OF STORY!

.45 Super marginally more powerful than .45 ACP+P, .460 Rowland much more powerful than either of those, this would be better bear and hog medicine but you have to convert the gun to the caliber for it to work right and be safe.

If you were shooting at a treed bear, and you had clear midsection shots, the .45 ACP will bring him down soon enough. Head on, charging bear, more muscle and bone between the muzzle of your gun and his boiler room, totally different scenario. The same 250gr WFN boolits loaded as hot as you can load them which get full broadsides penetration become much less effective once tables are turned.

I would not go into bear country armed with a 1911 as my primary sidearm no matter how hot it was loaded. Ruger revolver in .45 Colt, .44 magnum, yes. 1911 no.



Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.
My buddy just took a 7 SQ AK interior grizzly last night with his 40 S&W XD with Sig hollow points. 3 shots, 1 full penetrating at about 40 yards. He was hunting, not self-defense.

[35remington]

Fred, that's great as a story. But the fact of the matter is that 45 ACP ball regularly out penetrates center fire rifle soft points well known for easily penetrating black bear.

I also find it rather curious that a bear would just stand there, neither attacking effectively nor fleeing while someone reloaded twice (three magazines) to pump twenty plus rounds into said bear. Then I suppose you did an on the scene autopsy to determine all of the wound tracks? Does not seem likely.

Just doesn't pass the smell test as a believable story, both as to penetration claims as to what the 45 actually can do, nor to the actions of the animal involved. Sounds more like a story from someone with an agenda

[W.R.Buchanan]

I am a big fan of the .45 ACP and that is what I voted for. However If you don't already have one and your intended usage is a woods gun then Why not go with a .44 Mag Revolver?

If you look at Arts very cool chart, that he posted above you will see that there is a 400 ft lb. increase in power from the 10 MM to the .41 mag and another 60 to the .44's, and a 750 ft lb increase over a .45 ACP. Even a .44 Special can be loaded up to about 85-90% of a .44 Mag, and as far as reliability is concerned a Revolver can't really malfunction. If you choose a DA revolver the speed of follow up shots is as fast as any Auto Pistol. If you learn how to run a SA revolver it is pretty fast as well.

My point here is if your intended usage is what you state, I think you'd be better of with a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 Mag or .45 LC which can exceed the .44 Mag when loaded to higher levels. There are also Ruger Redhawks and S&W Mountain Guns to look at as well.

I am a big fan of auto pistols and have several, however if venturing into the woods, a .44 Revolver would be my gun of choice simply because of the power and reliability which exceed all of the choices you offered originally.

My .02

Randy

[ReloaderFred]

35remington,

I said I didn't see the bear shot, but rather came upon them while they were skinning the front of the bear to find out why the bear just kept coming. They said it just kept walking towards them, just like it wasn't being hit, but it was.

I don't pretend to know what goes on in a bear's mind, but like I said before, I live in bear country and have to deal with them all the time. They are not predictable at all. I'm pretty sure Lincoln isn't overrun with bears, but around here you give them wide berth because they are so unpredictable.

The hikers were simply cutting open the bear's chest area to find out why it didn't stop when they shot it, and most of the rounds were in the front section, not too far into the muscle. A bear has a lot of muscle and bone in it's front section when it's down on all fours and it's a relatively small and moving target. The two rounds that did hit the head just skinned off the side of the skull and evidently kept going into thin air, but they weren't center hits by any means. The .45 shooter said he was backing up as he shot.

You can choose to believe it or not, since I don't really care. I know what they told me and I know what I saw. If you choose to have the last word, it's yours. I'm done.......

And I don't carry a .45 acp when walking in the woods behind my house. I carry either a .41 Magnum or 10mm, since bears aren't up to conversations about which rounds are the most effective on them, especially when they're stomping their front paws and popping their jaws at you..... Been there, done that. Don't want to repeat it........

Fred

[Don Fischer]

For back packing I'd carry my 32 L. For the bear I'd carry a rifle! I doubt there is any handgun more effective or as effective as a 30-30! But I read a lot about this. Most guy's want to know which one to carry on a bear hunt, up to grizzly's. I always want to ask if they get charged, are they gonna throw their rifle o n the ground and grab their handgun? Really?

[buckwheatpaul]

Not trying to tell you to go to a "J" word bullet but I did shoot a 300# sow with a 230 gr. Hydra-Shock standard velocity a couple of years ago.....dropped her in her tracks so.....IMHO you do not need a +p load just a good soft bullet at standard velocity.....I was about 10 yards from her and was using a 4" Kimber......

[Earlwb]

For Bear Country you need some serious firepower. If a bear charges you, you are in serious trouble. You may not even have a chance to do anything. But I carry a BFR .45-70 in bear country. Now it still feels small though. But there are only about 4 other caliber handguns that might out perform it. I think that a .45 ACP would just piss the bear off even more.

Now then maybe those Lehiegh Defense Penetrator rounds with the special Penetrator bullets might work Ok in a .45 ACP. At least the bullet has a better chance of reaching something more important inside a bear. But the bear may still kill you and do die off somewhere else.

[huntersdog]

Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.
The .460 Rowland had caught my eye in the last few months. In real life scenarios, how many people can shoot and hit a moving target like a cougar or bear multiply times with a magnum handgun (I couldn't). I've shot the 44 super redhawk in the past and the recoil was pretty harsh to get another round on target quickly, that is why I was looking for something in a semi handgun. In a defense situation in the wild, even with wolves, they never give you the perfect shot like they do in the movies. I've had black bears and wolves, follow me from the side and from behind, that is how they hunt unless you stumble across a mom bear and cubs. I've had a rifle at the time on logging trails, but in the woods, they would have the upper hand.

[huntersdog]

Having seen a moderate sized blackbear (about 250 pounds guesstimated) shot with numerous rounds of .45 acp GI Ball ammo, it wouldn't be my first choice. Most of the rounds were found not far under the skin and penetration was very little. The bear was finished off with a .357 Magnum to the center of the skull.

The only reason the bear was shot with the .45 was the hikers were on the side of a slidehill, traversing across the face of the slide, when they came face to face with a blackbear that refused to retreat and wouldn't let them back down the very narrow trail. When they tried to back up, the bear became more aggressive for whatever reason, and they felt they had to shoot it, or fight it. The lead hiker was the one with the .45, and the trail was just wide enough for one person, so he emptied 3 magazines into the bear, with little visible effect. The second hiker was carrying a .357 Blackhawk, with 158 gr. Magnum SWC loads, and that's what finished the bear off. They peeled back the skin after the encounter to find out why the bear kept coming, and were amazed at how little penetration they got with the .45's. I came up on them at that point, and I was also amazed.

I live in blackbear country, and have encounters with them every summer right behind our house. We can't put out the trash the night before because of them and the raccoons...... I've seen a bear killed with a 9mm, shooting 147 gr. Black Talons, but it took 4 rounds and the bear still went about 150 yards before it bled out.

When I walk the dogs now, I carry either a .41 Magnum or a 10mm, with 200 gr. bullets loaded fairly warm. We've been trapped by a bear within 1/4 mile of our house before, and if you've never seen a large boar bear "posture" back and forth in front of you from about 20 yards, you haven't experienced how small a 9mm can feel in your hand, which is why I carry something bigger now.

Bears can be unpredictable and move really, really fast. The more power the better, but if you don't have to shoot one, that's even better. They don't always give you the choice, though, especially one that has lost it's fear of humans.

Hope this helps.

Fred
Thanks for sharing that! I would rather not shoot any critter, if I didn't have to. In the past, I've walked and followed trails to fishing streams and rivers and have walked upon bear bait stations just along the trails, and seen bear scramble, I was unaware of the bait sites. You have critters running and crashing through the brush and I didn't feel comfortable with my 9mm.

[9.3X62AL]

I share Reloader Fred's opinions on the bear-stopping potential of handgun rounds, and was co-participant (no firing by me) in a couple bear encounters that influence my views. I also share a similar background to Fred's in terms of wound ballistics phenomena.

My vote was for the 10mm. I'm not a raving fan of the caliber, but have some experience with it. A lot of printer's ink and bandwidth has been expended on comparisons to both 357 Magnum and 41 Magnum. It is a mid-point between those two chamberings, probably closer to the 41 than to the 357 when loaded to its full potential (it often isn't). I did away with the caliber due to administrative limitations imposed on its carry by my CCW's authorizing agency. A few weeks ago, most of those restrictions were rescinded--so I need to re-evaluate my position on the 10mm as felon repellent and bear dissuader. The caliber does a number of things pretty darn well for a back-country traveler, and is no slouch for urban vermin.

[35remington]

Given that 45 ACP penetration exceeds that of softpoint rifle rounds that easily pierce a skinny 250 lb black bear, it still don't smell right as a conclusion. Bullets likely were mistaken as to location and penetration.

Much much more more likely what was interpreted as lodging just under the skin on the impact side was actually end of travel on the opposite side of entrance.

Anyone that has an actual working knowledge of 45 ACP ball penetration would not believe only a couple of inches penetration on a body shot on a skinny 250 lb bear. I am one of those guys with such knowledge.

Thus my commentary. Could not help but comment on such a story. The bear would have to be made of well seasoned oak for such a thing to occur. They are nowhere near that dense.

[9.3X62AL]

One of those 2 bear-involved incidents WAS a shooting, just not by me. The officer engaged the bear as it ran at him pretty much full speed across a back yard with a Colt 1911A1 x 45 ACP using 185 grain STHPs. It took all 8 rounds to bring things to a halt, and all 8 rounds connected in the K-zone (jaw to brisket, roughly). Shooter was a former Navy SEAL, and had refilled the mag well and run the slide forward as the bear skidded to a stop a few feet from him. There was no on-scene necropsy, but the hits looked pretty darn good to me, esp. in very subdued 0245 hours lighting.

[35remington]

Can't speak as to hollowpoints and advisability as I would figure otherwise. In Al's example he had to attend the party with what he had. My own preference would be toward a nonexpanding bullet for such things but preferably a 45-70 or a 12 gauge with slugs given my druthers. Apparently hollowpoints that are widely known to penetrate much less than ball sufficed in this instance.

Do keep in mind that the 45 Colt factory load, with actual chronographed velocities very little different than GI ball and only 10 percent more bullet weight and nearly identical bullet shape is considered a good penetrator on live critters....yet somehow nearly identical 45 ACP barely bruises a human sized animal? Just what is it about skin and muscle that makes a small bear near impenetrable? Last I checked both were composed primarily of water.....not iron.

The thing that makes common handgun calibers less effective than rifles isn't penetration. It's considerably less tissue damage. Since critters that can gnaw on you generally take longer to die than you would want if you are under duress best hope you have time to react AND place a telling shot before you get chewed on.

Good luck with that.

I would say the odds of it actually happening resemble that of a lightning strike. We pontificate and debate such things with way more ink than they are worth.

[DerekP Houston]

I don't have a dog in this fight, only seen a black bear once when hiking philmont scout ranch. Personally I have a shoulder hunting holster for my gp100 in 357 and from the chart I'd feel comfortable carrying it. I don't really go for HP much other than show, I'm a bigger fan of heavy lead and heavy charge of powder. In my area that should take care of the hogs or 2 legged critters with ease.

Adrenaline is a weird thing, some guys can take a lickin and keep on tickin, others fall right over at the sight of blood. I'd rather be overgunned than undergunned in such a case.

[GhostHawk]

Voted .45 acp but like others my choice would be .357.

Artful that is a cool chart but I find some of the bullet weights to be a bit interesting.
For example 185 gr for .45 acp but 255 gr for .45lc. There are several others that if they chose a factory ammo with the "standard" for caliber bullet grain weight would be shifted up. Such as the .40SW.

I think where some of those calibers position on that chart is highly dependent on what ammo is chosen.

Still it is a cool chart and ty for posting.

[jlchucker]

Why not a 44 special? After reading the comments here, I notice nobody mentions that caliber. My favorite woods walking handgun is a Ruger new model Blackhawk, 4 3/4 inch barrel. Those 240 gr semi wadcutters seem to hit pretty hard.

[Artful]

My buddy just took a 7 SQ AK interior grizzly last night with his 40 S&W XD with Sig hollow points. 3 shots, 1 full penetrating at about 40 yards. He was hunting, not self-defense.

The largest bear shot in Oregon (last I knew) was shot dead with a 38 spl - with my friends PPC Model 10 S&W - would that have been his choice - NO, but it's what he had - So would I recommend it - NO

[9.3X62AL]

JL--the original poster limited his question to 10mm--45 ACP--or 45 Super. I responded within those parameters.

The more recent "bear encounter" involved my wife and I picking berries in the local mountains in 2002. I had along a Ruger Redhawk in 44 Mag x 5.5" barrel. We never actually laid eyes on the critter, but heard him doing that CHUFF CHUFF bit they do at very close proximity, and could actually smell him. We slowly backed out of the patch, Marie first as I covered her retreat and began backing out toward our thankfully unlocked truck about 40 yards away. No charge, no sighting, and all went well. Still scared the daylights out of both of us. That experience in concert with the 1985 bear incident in Banning caused me to start bringing a rifle with us into bear country. That Redhawk--big ol' boat anchor that it might be--just did not seem like much to stand behind during a Close Encounter Of The Furred Kind. Just my take on the matter. And not some sissy-la-la plastic rat gun, either--30/30 WCF minimum.

[DanWalker]

As a guy who does tramp around in the bear woods pretty frequently and hasn't been eaten yet, I'll give my 2 cents. I'd suggest you carry whatever you can make repeated fast hits with. I don't know of many handgun rounds that will do the job with just one shot. I carry a Kimber ultra carry 45 when I backpack in the black bear country. I carry a heavy loaded 45LC in Grizzly country. Both are more psychological comfort than anything else. I had to hike 3 miles back to camp in the middle of the night once( in a nasty thunderstorm) in grizzly country after a horse tried to kill me. I had my 45LC and a flashlight. I am under no illusions when it comes to handguns for bear defense. In the highly unlikely even that I ever have to use my 45's to defend myself, I will most likely be shooting the bear OFF me. Pistols just don't kill fast enough. Their main advantage is that you ALWAYS have them with you and they are better than fighting bare handed. We keep 12 gauges in camp and close at hand when camping in grizzly country. We've had them camp and it's not fun. Too many people, I think, have an incorrect scenario in their heads of how a bear encounter would go down. They are ambush predators. They nearly always see you before you see them. It will happen VERY fast and at very close range. You won't have time for much precision shooting. The one guy I know that killed a griz in self defense did it at 3 FEET with a 300 win. Bear landed at his feet. He fired his remaining rounds down through the top of its head. The biggest problem with backpacking is weight. No one wants to haul around an extra 4lbs of hand cannon, so the pistol gets left at home. Whatever you decide on, practice a LOT. Get it out fast and make fast repeated hits on a dinner plate sized target at about 3-4 feet. For handgun hunting, any of the calibers you mention will get it done. I've been intrigued by the 10mm for a long time, but it's an itch I haven't scratched yet... My 45's keep working, so that's good enough for me. Please understand, I am no expert when it comes to bears. I hope I haven't come across as someone trying to act like an expert. I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions, nothing more. Take them for what they are, just freely given and shared words.

[ole 5 hole group]

Both are more psychological comfort than anything else.

Carry what gives you "psychological comfort". I totally agree with 35remington's comments, as 45ACP hardball is a penetrator of man & beast, make no mistake about that! Shot placement rules the day as to instant death, death due to bleed-out or death due to infection - or no death due to misses or minor wounds that heal nicely.;-)

I'm not a big fan of muzzle energy, as I don't believe a word of it. Just think about this for a nano-second. Energy is scalar, strictly a measure of magnitude without vector or description. Take your 44 magnum cannon - 240 grain cast flying at 1500 fps at the muzzle. Math says it has about 1,200 ft/lbs of "energy". Now lay that muzzle against the side of a 150 pound deer and you should move him roughly 9 feet!! Ever see that happen?

If you are ever so unfortunate to experience a real bear attack at close quarters - you will need real, and I mean real fast reflexes to bring your firearm to bare on the incoming threat. You may or may not get a shot off - unless you make a CNS strike, you will get knocked to the ground and unless the firearm is tethered to your body - it (the firearm) will go flying to a location probably never to be seen again for the duration of the encounter. You will get chewed on but unless you are real unlucky and suffer a deadly bite or the attack is predatory in nature - you will survive to get a few stiches in your hide.

The 1911 45 ACP loaded with your reloads consisting of 255 to 265 grain hard cast skipping along at 950 to 1,050 fps will be every bit as deadly as your 44 magnum or 45 Colt loaded with the same bullets going the same velocity. Now, speed the bullet up several hundred feet per second in the 44 magnum/45 Colt and you might get a tad more penetration but penetration is all you'll get over the slower 45 ACP. If you don't reload - Buffalo bore produces a mighty fine 255 grain cast 45 ACP round. The 230 grain Gold Dot will expand to 50 caliber or a tad larger but will maintain 90% or better of it's weight but because it expands, penetration will suffer some - how much? depends again on shot placement.

When you hear of a LEO or anyone else blasting away at some animal with the 1911 using 230 grain hardball and experiencing minimum effect - just think poor shot placement. ;-)

[Petrol & Powder]

Of those 3 choices, my decision would be driven more by the gun than the cartridge.
The Glock chambered in 10mm or 45 ACP would be fairly lightweight for the caliber, have a decent capacity, be very reliable and most of all - be very resistant to hostile weather conditions.

The 10mm might have a slight edge in power but I'm not convinced that's terribly important.


If we go to a LW Commander style 1911, we're solidly back in the 45 ACP category all by itself.

The weight of the pistol becomes a factor if you're backpacking and I'd like to have a different choice in cartridge selection beyond 45 ACP, 45 Super and 10mm.

If I was worried about bears that might eat me I wouldn't pick a big semi-auto cartridge or even a handgun. That's a job for a pump shotgun with slugs or a .45-70 lever action.

If my threats were more likely the two legged type, I would want a kit gun. Something that was accurate and light but could also serve as a SD tool.

[charlie b]

What fun stuff!! :)

Me? I am a pretty good shot but I have not been in a situation to test my skills under such duress as a close range bear encounter. So, if going into bear country I'd have a 12ga with slugs or a .45-70 lever gun.....and bear spray.

I have read a lot of stories about encounters and most end up with one factor, using a good penetrating round and good shot placement. Kinda like Bell. He killed most African big game with a 7x57 mauser, frequently at close range (most of the time he also had folks with backup weapons). Perfect shot placement will do that. Yes, a .32 can kill a grizzly, if the shot is placed just right. But, if one is charging you what do you have to shoot at? Are you going to hit it in an eye? Would that even slow it down? How many of you even know where the vulnerable spots are on a charging bear? 250lb bear? What if you run into a 400lb one?

.45 ACP is one of my favorite self defense cartridges, as is the .357 Mag. Shot deer dead with .357. Would not depend on it for a bear. I am just not that good enough to hit a critical spot. Side shot when hunting, yeah probably ok. Head on charging, no.

So, of the three listed I'd pick the 10mm with a solid bullet and as flat a point as would feed reliably, but, carry bear spray if you really encounter one.

[Suo Gan]

44 magnum is the sane choice. If a bear was on the attack you ain't going to kill him quick enough with a 45 pistol. Those rascals are tough. Don't give me your stories about how they aren't. They are my friend. I used to think they weren't. They can be damn vindictive when they are wounded to boot. Go with enough gun in my opinion. Odds are in your favor that nothing will ever happen even in high bear population areas. You'll have odds in your favor. Go light. Carry a 2" Jack knife. Carve that nasty bear up. Haha

[jonp]

Of the choices you gave I picked the 10mm for the combination of power and capacity. Myself, I will always choose a revolver.

[white eagle]

There was the same discussion over on another forum about using the .45 ACP to hunt hogs. And I was like wha???? Why would you want to take a 1911 after a hog when there are so many more powerful rounds in a revolver that just doesn't make sense.

And now for your bear scenario, almost the same questions and answers. The .45 ACP is a GREAT manstopper. END OF STORY!

.45 Super marginally more powerful than .45 ACP+P, .460 Rowland much more powerful than either of those, this would be better bear and hog medicine but you have to convert the gun to the caliber for it to work right and be safe.

If you were shooting at a treed bear, and you had clear midsection shots, the .45 ACP will bring him down soon enough. Head on, charging bear, more muscle and bone between the muzzle of your gun and his boiler room, totally different scenario. The same 250gr WFN boolits loaded as hot as you can load them which get full broadsides penetration become much less effective once tables are turned.

I would not go into bear country armed with a 1911 as my primary sidearm no matter how hot it was loaded. Ruger revolver in .45 Colt, .44 magnum, yes. 1911 no.



Interested in staying alive? Some good advice here, too bad you are voluntarily confining yourself to being marginally armed in a dangerous situation. I don't say this to be insulting, I am telling you a plain simple fact about killing dangerous things with handguns.

I agree
if you are that concerned about being confronted by a bear why would you
choose to defend yourself in an inadequate fashion when there are so many
other pistol cals better suited for that confrontation well like a 44 mag,45 colt ect.
I have a 45 acp but to walk where the wild things are would not be my first choice
if tooth and claw were on the possibilities menu

[jonp]

Folks, he is talking a black not a griz or polar bear. The odds of being charged by a black bear are worse than hitting the powerball.

[ReloaderFred]

Folks, he is talking a black not a griz or polar bear. The odds of being charged by a black bear are worse than hitting the powerball.

I'm afraid that's not true. More people are actually attacked by black bears than the others each year. It may be because there are more black bears, but my experience with them is they are unpredictable. Some people think they're cute, but living among them takes all the cuteness right out of the equation....

Hope this helps.

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

Here is some interesting documentation on bear attacks in North America:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

This only covers the fatal attacks, but not those where the victim was only injured.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Texantothecore]

.44 magnum is frequently used for hunting black bears and that is what I would use for bear defense. Might also go with .454 casull.

[flint45]

Sometimes I carry a .45 S&W 625 in .45acp loaded with cast 230 grain wfn. But if Iam going to real bear country I bring my .44 mag. 310 wfn boolits at 1250 fps :Fire:

[gtgeorge]

Once upon a time not so long ago I had a 4" .357 and a 5" 45ACP and chose the 45ACP to take to the woods hunting hogs as a backup to the muzzle loader. 230gr XTP worked just fine on charging hogs at around 200 pounds loaded to 950fps. I would not have felt under-gunned had a black bear showed up as I was getting exits on hogs even hard racking in full out run. I was happy to have a semi auto as the first couple rounds didn't always hit the mark as I was firing as soon as leather would be cleared.

[robertbank]

Fred is bang on with his comments on Black Bears. The beggers mostly see you as food.

I now carry a 12 Gauge Mossberg when off fishing. I may or may not have my GP-100 with me as back up (200 gr RN/180 gr LSWC) now carried in .357mag hard cast lead). Big guns better be short barreled if you intend to ever have to use it for bear protection. Hauling a big heavy gun out of a holster when you only have a second or two to get into action may or may not work for you as well as you think. The shotgun only works when it is in hand and ready.

Only have had four encounters to date. Three, I was armed and lucky the bears wandered off - closest was about 15 feet. Once I was unarmed and was down wind of the bear. She and her cub just wandered off. Gotta say, the heart was pumping and I really had a sudden wish and urge to be somewhere else.

Buddy of mine carries a 10MM Glock when he is out with the Rangers. They have the .303Brit as well but it is not always at hand.

Take Care

Bob

[pmer]

My premise was if I had either on hand, I voted for the 10mm and would use 200 grain WFN boolits. Check out the Ruger Alaskan, its offers short barreled heavy hitting goodness with usable accuracy. You don't have to search high and low for narrow bands of accuracy and mess with recoil springs, buffers and slide velocity and so on. YMMV but I figured it was a bad idea to push a platform harder than its initial design while trying to expect life saving reliability from it.

[Brandi]

I said .45acp but that's loaded hot of course. I have one of the Blackhawk .45acp/.45Colt convertibles that I have no doubt would sling a well thought out .45acp bullet plenty hard enough to take out most critters in the 25 yard range regardless of their temper and/or intent. I do have a Glock 21 that I've wanted to pair with a 10mm top and I'm sure it would work in the scenario.

I don't have any experience or useful knowledge of the .45 Super so I couldn't say where it would stand.

I've always figured that if I were in that situation I would carry my S&W 629 V-Comp .44 mag just because I prefer the DA just a bit over the SA in the case of bear defense since, from what I've researched, you rarely get more than a second or two before your handgun style/caliber becomes a moot point. That said, my Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt would be second choice and then .45acp. I've just gotten the .45acp dies for my new reloading set up and haven't got to explore the potential of the acp in a strong gun yet but I suspect it can do pretty well.

I really need to read up on the .45 Super.

[lar45]

Several years ago I read about the 45-08 being used in Canada for bear protection.
Basically they take any 308 sized case, cut it down and inside ream to fit a 200gn SWC. Then load it to 1300fps. The reamed cases have an incredibly strong and thick web area and have a H2O capacity of 24.1gns vs 27gn for a fired WW 45acp case.
I don't remember everything that was required to convert a 1911 to fire it.

There is a little bit if info here, from 2013, on the subject that might be worth reading.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?223145-45-ACP-P-45-Super-and-45-08-Heavy-Boolit-Load-Data

[dualsport]

I've seen video of Black Bears fighting. The speed, power, and visciousness is stunning to watch. I mean fast and brutal. Good luck with your pistols. If you're unlucky enough to be attacked you'll wish you had a .500 S&W.

[robertbank]

Several years ago I read about the 45-08 being used in Canada for bear protection.
Basically they take any 308 sized case, cut it down and inside ream to fit a 200gn SWC. Then load it to 1300fps. The reamed cases have an incredibly strong and thick web area and have a H2O capacity of 24.1gns vs 27gn for a fired WW 45acp case.
I don't remember everything that was required to convert a 1911 to fire it.

There is a little bit if info here, from 2013, on the subject that might be worth reading.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?223145-45-ACP-P-45-Super-and-45-08-Heavy-Boolit-Load-Data

I run a 22 # recoil spring in my Norinco Bush Gun 1911. No buffer is necessary but can be used. Recoil is similar to a .357Mag. Advantage of the auto is you can get six shot off faster than you can with a revolver, the 1911 only weighs 43 oz empty, and reloads if necessary can be done so much faster. I get just over 1300fps using a 200gr LSWC and 10.5gr of Longshot. This cartridge is very popular among some of the bear guides over in Pr. George where the cartridge was developed. I am told some of the fellows over there used the old Para LDA. I just use a Norinco single stack.

Take Care

Bob

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bob: What is the deal with pistols in Canada? I thought they were outlawed?

But there are some that are OK?

or is it Province by Province?

What gives?

Randy

[ghh3rd]

Just be sure to wear bells to alert the bears that you are nearby, so you don't surprise them!

[ghh3rd]

Oh oh! I just did a search about how to identify bear scat.


Bear scat varies tremendously, given the variation in bear diets. ... To identify bear scat, look closely in scats and in many cases you will find little bells, thereby determining the likelihood that it is in fact bear scat.

[robertbank]

Bob: What is the deal with pistols in Canada? I thought they were outlawed?

But there are some that are OK?

or is it Province by Province?

What gives?

Randy

Handguns with a barrel length of =<105MM are prohibitive. Over 105MM they are restricted primarily to range use. At last count there were approx. 800,00 restricted firearms registered in Canada. You have to take a course to get a Possession and Acquisition License. Each and every time you purchase restricted firearm a current background check is made. I have approx. q5 assorted handguns, all of which are registered. The Firearms Act is Federal Legislation and is administered by each of the Provinces.

For more detailed information Google :Canadian Firearms Act or go here:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

Handguns are not outlawed in Canada. Their use though is pretty much restricted to range activity. There are a few exceptions. Handgun ownership is not widespread in Canada, nor has it ever been. Firearm ownership is widespread and growing as is handgun ownership.

I suspect you probably wish you had not asked. :>)

Take Care

Bob

[Ramjet-SS]

I love these threads.

Black bears are fast I regularly encounter them where I live. In fact I have treed and pepper sprayed several,of them to discourage them from coming back into the yard. Many have said how fast they are and I will tell you they are lighting fast and are faster than Mr. Bolt in a short fast sprint. Generally they are not looking to fight or attack and will with discouragement usually retreat. Not always.

Awareness
Avoidence
Flight
Fight

In that order.

Those comparing the effectiveness of the 44 vs the 10MM in a Glock?

I Own both I shoot allot, I mean many thousands of rounds in SD drills and can tell you that for me I can put more rounds on target faster with the model 20 Glock than I can with the Ruger Back Packer 44 snubby. Now loading the 44 with a 180 grain XTP helps allot to calm down the snubby and make double action fire more manageable. But give me the 14 round magazine vs 6 any day. The 10mm is no slouch with 200 Grain hard cast loaded over a good dose of Longshot or AA #7 is a decent penetrator. As is the 200 grain XTP.

I have had had several bluff charges from Black Bears and I know they were bluff because I am typing this. But in one case the encounter involved surprised mother BB three Cubs and my Mountain Bike. Believe me when I say they are fast and just really are no more interested in fighting than you are. Stay calm be smart and in this case Imused my Mountain Bike as a defensive tool. Yup no gun!!!!!! I sure wish had one but my awareness is what helped divert an ugly encounter.

No gun works if you do not make the shots and total disruption of the central nervous system is what's incapacitated any mammal so shots on target is important if no other options are available.

Carry ry on like I said I love these threads ....... !

[robertbank]

Ramjet you bring up an interesting point. A few years back my oldest son, 6'2" and I were off fishing salmon. On our way we had to cross CN train tracks. As we crossed,. up wind about 100 yards or so rose a sow with a cub. She was up on her legs with a nose searching the air. I am sure se saw us but could not make us out. I had Gord stand behind me and raise his hands high. I stood in front of him with my hands out to my sides. I figured if we looked as big or bigger than she was she might just leave us be. After a couple of minutes of blind mans bluff she sat down on all fours and wandered off. There is no healthcare in the wild and faced with a larger opponent I suspect she figured she might be better off not challenging us. In this case it worked. Who knows? I do know that was the last time I have gone fishing without my Mossburg 12gauge in hand with something less effective with me as well. I presently do not have a Wilderness Permit for an handgun. ;-) If the bear attacks because they are hungry well, larger might just mean a bigger meal.

Take Care

Bob

[W.R.Buchanan]

Handguns with a barrel length of =<105MM are prohibitive. Over 105MM they are restricted primarily to range use. At last count there were approx. 800,00 restricted firearms registered in Canada. You have to take a course to get a Possession and Acquisition License. Each and every time you purchase restricted firearm a current background check is made. I have approx. q5 assorted handguns, all of which are registered. The Firearms Act is Federal Legislation and is administered by each of the Provinces.

For more detailed information Google :Canadian Firearms Act or go here:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/

Handguns are not outlawed in Canada. Their use though is pretty much restricted to range activity. There are a few exceptions. Handgun ownership is not widespread in Canada, nor has it ever been. Firearm ownership is widespread and growing as is handgun ownership.

I suspect you probably wish you had not asked. :>)

Take Care

Bob

No I am always interested in how my Bros in the north are getting along with their insane liberal govt. Too bad that the big cities pretty much run everything but that is not peculiar to Canada. We have it here in California and New York and Mass and IL and more everyday.

I was watching Bill Mahr's show one night and he had the new Minister of the Interior on his panel,,, this was right after Trudeau took over.

Mind you Bill Mahr is a pretty liberal guy, but even he was taken back by this women's ideas on how things needed to be. She literally wanted to take in millions of Syrian Refugees and finally he was making faces at her as the stuff coming out of her mouth was so Batship crazy even the audience was reacting. This is no conservative show, and in fact it is considered to be pretty far left so she was out there in la la land.

It is good to hear that the gun ownership is increasing. You guys live in a sportsman's paradise and the idea that you can't carry a sidearm for a backup when hiking in bear country is kind of over reactionary and I would love to see the country swing back to the right a little more, as I have entertained thoughts of living there.

But that probably ain't gonna happen either cuz right now I have lived my entire life 200 miles away from snow and am typing this in shorts and flip flops.

But I would like to visit. Too bad I can't bring a pistol,,, but maybe they would let me in with my #4 Mk1*Long Branch since it is Canadian.

Randy

[robertbank]

Randy you would be more than welcome. You can bring your gun in for competitions but that is it. None of the Provinces allow handgun hunting anymore so that is out now. For competitions the gun still has to have a barrel length over 105MM.

Yes we will have Turdo and his wife the Duchess of Canada for at least another 3 years. Hopefully it will be a one term wonder but I fear he may be around for two terms. I hated his father and the son is even worse. Oh well, the country will survive one way or another. Politicians are just that, politicians and they are the same on both sides of the 49th. As soon as their lips start moving they are lying. Choose what you like hearing, but don't expect much beyond that.

You want to come up and do some salmon fishing take a look at the Skeena river in July.

Take Care

Bob

[Piedmont]

I was watching Bill Mahr's show one night and he had the new Minister of the Interior on his panel,,, this was right after Trudeau took over.

Mind you Bill Mahr is a pretty liberal guy, but even he was taken back by this women's ideas on how things needed to be. She literally wanted to take in millions of Syrian Refugees and finally he was making faces at her as the stuff coming out of her mouth was so Batship crazy even the audience was reacting.
Randy

Gee, Bill Mahr is a pretty liberal guy? And I have been thinking he is a satanic ***. Go figure.

[JHeath]

The OP is set on an auto pistol. I prefer autos generally.

But re some of the comments, revolvers allow large meplat boolits with heavy crimps. And revolvers don't have FTFs, don't stovepipe, and move right past a misfire.

Autos limit meplat size and bullet weight, and headspacing on the case mouth can complicate crimping heavy loads or cast boolits. Heaven forbid one gets in a wrestling match with any animal, but pull the trigger on an auto when the slide nose is against something (the animal, the ground when you stumble, etc.) and out of battery, or if your jacket etc obstructs the ejection port, and you get a stoppage.

In town I wouldn't carry a revolver, don't like the bulk and figure I can make a middling power pistol work.

I spent 3 months in brown bear country, only saw one but it's a lonely feeling when you're out of contact and the nearest help is a long hike and 40 minute skiff ride away. I'm disinclined to play games in that situation. I would lean toward 6 of heavy .44 SWCs rather than pumping umpteen 10mms at a bear that might have just stepped out of the berry patch 6' from me, for the same reasons I would lean toward 5 rounds of .338 or even .30-06/220 over a magazine full of 7.62x39.

But there are arguments for both sides.

[robertbank]

JHeath what you have to think about is you are not hunting generally when you find yourself in this situation. While I carry a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with a slug and three balls, you need something you can get into action in about 2 seconds up here. I would suggest, as some have found out to their peril, (two Elk Hunters in central BC) that long guns are to clumsy when time is the essence, rifle was found with a jammed round in the breach with one round fired - a miss.

Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter. That said, one of my friends carries a 5" 460 revolver, a gun that has dispatched a Grizzly in the Yukon. The bear was a camp bear and not one charging out of the bushes. He had a Wilderness Permit due to his Bush Pilot occupation. Another friend here dispatches Black Bears, about one every two years with his SKS. Again bear in his chicken coop, not a charge. Those bears get buried quietly at the back of his property. Personally I would carry the 10MM Glock over my GP-100 or 45Colt IF the local Chief Firearms Officer would allow autos on a Wilderness Permit and if I owned a 10MM Glock :lol:

There is only .051 hundreds of an inch difference between the 10MM and 45 Colt assuming both are loaded with hard cast lead bullets and I would expect the 10MM would penetrate deeper. Both would do, but I suspect you could empty 10 rounds of 10MM into a bear twice as fast as you could six rounds of 45 Colt and you will unload the gun before you play tag team with the bruin.

All of this is just speculation because most of us will never be in a position where it matters. Bear threads are fun though.

Take Care

Bob

[pmer]

The 10mm has the advantage of sectional density over some of the 45 ACP style boolits. I think you have get into the 270 grain territory for 45 cal to match 220 grain 10mm in density.

Here is a moving target you guys might get a kick out of. It rolls down a hill towards you like a charging critter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUPWi9krro

[JHeath]

Robert, I wasn't suggesting carrying a rifle instead of a handgun. I was only saying that -- like most people -- if we were talking rifles, I would opt for a powerful bolt rifle over a less-powerful semiauto rifle and more rounds.

Which is analagous to the revolver/auto choice.

I totally share your preference for flatter, lighter pistols. I have zero interest in humping a 4-lb revolver, and a Glock 20 that's on your hip is infinitely better than the Redhawk back in the tent.

I handled a 329PD the other day and am interested. I wouldn't load it full-house, but it will feed big, flat bullets that autopistols won't handle, and it's very light.

(BTW, I've had dunno how many stoppages with semiautos. I'm trying to remember when something comparable happened with a revolver. I never had one jump the crimp).

Conventional hunting wisdom is universally in favor of a smaller number of more-effective bullets. You can't legally take an SKS to hunt the big five in Africa, or argue that better shot placement means you should be allowed to hunt Cape Buff with your .25-06 rather than the mandatory .375+

You can't get one of those giant 310gr flatnose boolits out of an autopistol. The flatter the bullet, the more you increase the odds of an FTF. A revolver will feed any shape bullet, every time.

An autopistol with equal power to a revolver looks like a Desert Eagle, because it is one. At some point if you keep driving up the horsepower, crimping will become an issue esp. with boolits.

But I totally understand the reasoning behind using a 10mm or .45-08 and it appeals to me a lot. There are arguments on both sides. But the default in confronting dangerous game has pretty much always been for power over volume of rounds, and there's probably a good reason for that.

[Chapo]

My experience backpacking comes from Alaska. I would never leave the house without my 44 magnum revolver!

[35remington]

Crimping is not an issue with auto loader rounds. Forces of recoil do not affect cartridge integrity as with revolvers. Suggesting crimp is a factor with auto loaders for that reason is a mistaken assertion.

[robertbank]

Crimping is not an issue with auto loader rounds. Forces of recoil do not affect cartridge integrity as with revolvers. Suggesting crimp is a factor with auto loaders for that reason is a mistaken assertion.

Yes but if the crimp applied does not eliminate the belling applied to the case prior to the taper crimp being applied an auto can quit functioning in a hurry. Not the same issue as sometimes found in revolvers though. I do a lot of practice and every once in a while, and it is rare given the amount of shooting I do, the crimp applied does not completely remove the belling and a jam occurs. I always check my competition rounds but practice,,,not so much.

I have had my Blackhawk choke when loading 45acp due to a barb on the rim of a case. This happened early on right after I bought the gun. Since then I keep all my 45acp brass used in the revolver separate from my auto brass. No issues since.

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

As I said, power levels in autoloader rounds aren't affecting the need for crimp as was implied. It is a feed reliability thing in the need to crimp but power has nothing to do with it

[jaydub in wi]

Of the choices given, I voted 10mm. That being said, I'm a revolver guy. After seeing the results of the 357, 41, and 44 mags, my comfort level is at 41 on up. When I am hiking in northern Wi or Michigan's UP, I carry my 41 or 44 mag with cast loads. When not in bear country, I carry my 357 because the worst thing here are raccoons. I'm no authority on anything, but those are my thoughts.

[Ramjet-SS]

Of the choices given, I voted 10mm. That being said, I'm a revolver guy. After seeing the results of the 357, 41, and 44 mags, my comfort level is at 41 on up. When I am hiking in northern Wi or Michigan's UP, I carry my 41 or 44 mag with cast loads. When not in bear country, I carry my 357 because the worst thing here are raccoons. I'm no authority on anything, but those are my thoughts.

Well except the habitants of mobile meth labs and Mary Jo grow operations. Plus Black Bears are just giant raccoons ..... :D

[JHeath]

As I said, power levels in autoloader rounds aren't affecting the need for crimp as was implied. It is a feed reliability thing in the need to crimp but power has nothing to do with it

A Smith 329PD weighs 1.6lbs and can launch a 310gr bullet at about 1100fps.

If you could launch a 310gr bullet from a 1.5lb autoloader at 1100fps, would bullet setback of the bottom rounds in the mag be a potential issue? I think it would.

At some point, power:weight will make crimping an issue in autoloaders with boolits. Because you can't roll crimp due to headspacing, and taper crimping could swage down the boolit, or be insufficient to prevent setback.

I don't know that crimping is an issue for a fact. And I don't think you know for a fact that it's not an issue, unless you have tested a 1.6lb autoloader with that kind of power.

If you say no such pistol exists, that is my point. Autoloaders either are less powerful than revolvers, or more heavy, or both.



Bullet setback in the magazine is also supposed to be a potential issue with hard-recoiling bolt rifles.

I don't think anybody would chose an M1 carbine for elk over a .30-06, then argue that 15 rounds will bring down an elk.

I don't think anybody would chose an M1 Garand for Cape Buffalo over a .470 Nitro double, and argue that eight rounds and a fast reload are better than two.

So while I understand the rationale for e.g. a 10mm over a .44 or .45 revolver, and somewhat share it, I notice it is contrary to the usual rule of using a bigger gun and not relying on volume of fire.

[Plate plinker]

10MM no doubt about it.

[jmort]

"Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter."

Where do people come up with idiotic notions like this? I suppose you might say "In my opinion, semi-automatic handguns are more reliable than revolvers" if you wanted to state an opinion. "Far more reliable" - what a joke.

[robertbank]

"Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter."

Where do people come up with idiotic notions like this? I suppose you might say "In my opinion, semi-automatic handguns are more reliable than revolvers" if you wanted to state an opinion. "Far more reliable" - what a joke.

Well there seems to be no amount of idiots who think otherwise. Try firing 1K rounds of ammo through your revolver and let us know when it fails. Better yet, load a cartridge with a slight burr on the rim and see how you make out. Drop the gun in some mud or sand and try firing. Armies didn't switch to semi autos because they failed more than revolvers do. S&W Model 66 weighs in at 36oz with a 4" barrel while a Glock 17 with a longer barrel comes in at 25oz. Anything else?

Take Care

Bob

[jaydub in wi]

Well except the habitants of mobile meth labs and Mary Jo grow operations. Plus Black Bears are just giant raccoons ..... :D
ramjet,
Funny thing about the mary jane growing operations, 6 years ago a friend and I were bear baiting in an area in the Nicolet that had growing operations busted the year before. Bears may be just giant raccoons, but the 41/ 44 makes me feel better than the 357.

[35remington]

jHeath, a consultant for the firearm industry you most certainly are not.

First, there aren't any 1.5 lb autoloaders that shoot 310 grain bullets at any speed which sort of makes your whole argument moot. How does admitting they do not exist validate your point? Seen any instances of such that supports your claim? No? Neither has anybody else.

Because the whole cartridge is free to move slightly, bullet pull is not a problem as it is with lightweight revolvers that hold their cartridges in a fixed relationship to the cylinder and allow recoil forces to yank on the bullet.

Second, there is little room for cartridges in autoloader magazines to gain much speed before they hit the front of the magazine, because spring tension and frictional forces prevent the cartridge from doing so, combined with the tiny distance they are free to move. Thus they do not shorten in the magazine when fired, either.

Feel free to cite observed instances of auto loading pistols shortening rounds when fired because of magazine movement. Try to do your best not to relate relatively low powered pistols to elephant guns while you are at it. Pistol cartridges are also much smaller and lighter and have both less inertia and less momentum. Pistols also have considerably stiffer magazine springs than rifle do. All these factors conspire together to keep cartridges in auto loading pistol magazines from moving with much force under recoil.

Next time you posit a theory about a problem, make sure it actually happens in guns that actually exist.

Since you admit you don't know crimping is a factual problem, why not wait until somebody actually has a problem with it before claiming it will be problem instead of making something up that you cannot support?

[Ramjet-SS]

ramjet,
Funny thing about the mary jane growing operations, 6 years ago a friend and I were bear baiting in an area in the Nicolet that had growing operations busted the year before. Bears may be just giant raccoons, but the 41/ 44 makes me feel better than the 357.

Probably not far from where I Live if it was in the Tornado area and yes I carry my model 20 and my newly acquired 44 Ruger 2.5" snubby. Not always at the same time......:lol:

[35remington]

Once the cartridges are in the gun and the cylinder is closed, safe money is on the revolver completing the firing of all rounds in the cylinder without a jam or misfire over the autoloader finishing all the rounds in the magazine without a jam.....for the simple reason the rounds in the revolver don't have to feed, extract or eject.

They just lie there until struck by the firing pin.

Whether six rounds with more power is better than eight or ten or fifteen with less power presumes you do or do not have time to shoot six or ten or fifteen times. No one will know that beforehand.

[jmort]

I would rather have one six foot long wound channel over two three foot long wound channels.

[robertbank]

Once the cartridges are in the gun and the cylinder is closed, safe money is on the revolver completing the firing of all rounds in the cylinder without a jam or misfire over the autoloader finishing all the rounds in the magazine without a jam.....for the simple reason the rounds in the revolver don't have to feed, extract or eject.

They just lie there until struck by the firing pin.

Whether six rounds with more power is better than eight or ten or fifteen with less power presumes you do or do not have time to shoot six or ten or fifteen times. No one will know that beforehand.

If the revolver gets drop[ped in sand all bets are off. If you own a Ruger BH and load six 45acp cartridges and one has a burr on the rim you won;t find out the gun jams until the cylinder starts turning as I found out to my displeasure when I went out with my gun for the first time. The comment remains, revolvers simply are not as reliable as auto loaders. Revolvers don't have to feed, extract or eject BUT the cylinder still has to turn. In any event the issue of reliability was decided long ago in favour of the semi auto.

Take Care

Bob

[35remington]

Bob, I don't think so, certainly not when speaking of rounds in the gun. When properly fitting rimmed rounds are used it is easy to determine if the round will fire correctly beforehand. It certainly is not an unknowable thing.

My observation, shared by many others, is the transition to autoloader by police and civilians was done for firepower reasons. The issue of reliability had little to nothing to do with it.

Given the round chambers in the first place smart money is on the revolver successfully firing the rounds without a jam over the autoloader. Even the Glock fanboys admit their guns jam. Forums are rife with complaints that limp wristing jams the gun, it won't feed certain bullets, won't quite go into battery, forget to seat the magazines, gun locks open with rounds remaining in the magazine, etc (see, for example, the limp wristing thread on m4carbine.net. I am not entirely convinced all those jams are solely due to limp wristing but something is making the dern guns jam).

Can't remember the last time any of my revolvers failed to turn the cylinder when using proper rimmed rounds. Bet nobody else can either. Moon clipped revolvers are admittedly more jam prone. I don't use them for serious purposes and recommend you discontinue their use as well. Using rimless cartridges in revolvers is also a mistake in terms of reliability from my experience.

I shoot many different modern autos and revolvers as well as oldies. Across the board, new guns and old, and speaking of the rounds already in the cylinder versus those in the magazine, the revolver has a far better record of never jamming no matter what.

If your gun is in the mud the bear is already on you and you're disarmed.

I do consider myself an autoloader guy and carry one for many purposes (not bear hunting) but really, over what is now getting to be a decently experienced lifespan revolvers win this one given ammo is in the gun.

Now, given the reload, I have lots of room to jam the revolver or drop my ammo. Hope I have solved any problems before then.

I hope we are talking about the same thing as you may be talking about reliability from a different cycle of events, but give me a loaded gun to start with and odds favor the revolver over all autoloader challengers. Just my now fairly considerable experience.

[35remington]

Regarding bear encounters, anyone have any statistics on how most attacks unfold? From what I have read, and the few I've seen (not in person) having a lanyard on the pistol butt would be helpful, maybe.

If you get cuffed around and aren't immediately killed at least you still have your pistol. Even if empty it is a club. In that situation I would be glad I had a pistol of almost any caliber.

Given where I live, I am far more likely to be assaulted by a Harley than a black bear.

[Piedmont]

I just wanted to chime in and say I've had many more malfunctions with autos than revolvers, for the reasons 35remington espoused: the round doesn't have to feed and eject each time. Fewer things to go wrong. Autos have advantages, too, though.

[robertbank]

Here is a link that you can use,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America


I think the biggest issue involved is how fast you can get the gun into play. To many think in terms of hunting vs being ambushed by a bear at distances of less than 15 yards. There is a guide up here who carries and uses a 500 S&W to protect his clients. I have seen him shoot the revolver and he is very good. He offered me the opportunity to empty the gun on a bear silhouette. I fired one round and that was enough for me. He shot it about as fast as I can shoot a .357mag and remain on target. His situation is different as he would know where the bear was. In surprise encounters I suspect most would never get that gun out of the holster.

I live where bears live and car accidents will get me before any bear is likely to.

Take Care

Bob

[lar45]

LAR Grizzly in 45 Win Mag = autoloader in 44mag power range.
They also came in 357 mag, 44mag and 50AE as well as others.
They did weigh about 3#, so no, not a 1.5# 44mag auto.
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/583488000/583488432/pix121479573.jpg
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/583488432

Now as for the choice of revolvers, are we talking single or double action?
I have many single actions, but it would seem that a double might be the better way to go.
If your strong hand becomes injured, you'll still need to be able to shoot the beast(revolver) with your off hand. 50 cal revolvers? I have 3, but I don't think that I want to shoot full power 500S&W loads left handed.
So my vote is for a 4-5.5" Ruger Super Red Hawk in 480.

[cameron.fromthep]

I think the 6" 41 mag option sounds good.

Sent from my SM-T230NU using Tapatalk

[35remington]

If speaking revolvers I would have to go with a double action as well. Shooting then cocking the gun with the thumb loosens my grip on the piece when I might really need to have a good hold on it, and I personally shoot a double action revolver faster.

Still would rather have almost any gun than no gun, but those Harleys will get me before any bear does.

[garym1a2]

As a Glock fanboy that owns 4 of them I can say they do break. My G21F and G22 both had trigger return springs break. My G35 USPSA gun had a fireing pin deform and get light strikes. Those three guns are high round count guns. My biggest concern with the autoloader is the ammo. I have made defective ammo before and when its a little long you can get a slide lockup. Than you have to bang on it to clear.
My S&W686 surplus has be reliable though I only have maybe 1000 rounds thru it mostly light charges of BE or Unique. That said in bear country I would buy a G20sf since I shoot Glocks well and the biggest threats are humans.


"Autos are far more reliable than revolvers and generally lighter."

Where do people come up with idiotic notions like this? I suppose you might say "In my opinion, semi-automatic handguns are more reliable than revolvers" if you wanted to state an opinion. "Far more reliable" - what a joke.

[huntersdog]

I went with the .460 Rowland conversion and it is a really nice round with the comp on it. Shot some Underwood ammo and the gun ran like a clock and the recoil was very minimal and accurate ate 25 yards, which is about where I'll be shooting from.

[nickE10mm]

I would rather have one six foot long wound channel over two three foot long wound channels.

^^THIS.

Listen, all... I'm the biggest 10mm supporter the world has ever seen... and I voted 10mm ... but if there were grizzly bears in the area, I'd rather have a diesel powered .44 mag (even a SINGLE ACTION) revolver than a 10mm with 10-20 rounds .... here is why: You want EVER round that is fired to do MAXIMUM damage ... as you might not get more than one shot off. Make that round be a .44 mag WFN cast bullet that rips a two inch diameter hole 6 FEET through tough bear hide, organs and bone.... since the 10mm, while, they would LIKELY do the job just fine (properly loaded with WFNGC bullets at 1300+ fps in 200-225 gr loads)... would you bet your LIFE on that?

For ANYTHING other than bear DEFENSE situations, I'd go 10mm all the way (including, even, the HUNTING of black bear but not grizzly, as hunting from a stand and being able to pick your shot from safety on an unsuspecting bear is different than defending a pissed off sow...)

[Greg S]

Those wouldn't be my favorite choices just moving from AK, but outta the 3, a G20.

[robertbank]

^^THIS.

.....and being able to pick your shot from safety on an unsuspecting bear is different than defending a pissed off sow.. at 7 yards or less)

Fixed it for you.

Take Care

Bob

[OldBearHair]

Thanks Fred, You are a gentleman.

[shortlegs]

I voted 45 acp given the choices. knowingly going into bear country I would choose a 12ga with slugs or 308 or 3006 or 45-70. I have a friend that shot a 200 lb black bear that was raiding deer meat hanging on the front poarch of his cabin in a Colo. hunt. 44 mag at 3 ft in the mouth(trying to shoot down the throat) didnt penetrate but blew up in mouth. Bear bounced off a car and cabin next door and ran into woods. He found the bear later and finished it with 3006. My Marine son was home on leave and shot a 118 lb hog with 140 gr 7mm08. 140gr bullet penetrated full body length taking out heart and both lungs but hog still charged and he finished it with 22 lr pistol to the brain. It dropped instantly. He didnt shoot it again with rifle because he didnt want to destroy any more meat. Point is you have to shutdown the cns or wait for critters to bleed out and thus shut down cns or hit them so shock that the cns(central nervous system) ceases to function.

[Tracy]

The OP is set on an auto pistol. I prefer autos generally.

But re some of the comments, revolvers allow large meplat boolits with heavy crimps. And revolvers don't have FTFs, don't stovepipe, and move right past a misfire.

Autos limit meplat size and bullet weight, and headspacing on the case mouth can complicate crimping heavy loads or cast boolits. Heaven forbid one gets in a wrestling match with any animal, but pull the trigger on an auto when the slide nose is against something (the animal, the ground when you stumble, etc.) and out of battery, or if your jacket etc obstructs the ejection port, and you get a stoppage.

In town I wouldn't carry a revolver, don't like the bulk and figure I can make a middling power pistol work.

I spent 3 months in brown bear country, only saw one but it's a lonely feeling when you're out of contact and the nearest help is a long hike and 40 minute skiff ride away. I'm disinclined to play games in that situation. I would lean toward 6 of heavy .44 SWCs rather than pumping umpteen 10mms at a bear that might have just stepped out of the berry patch 6' from me, for the same reasons I would lean toward 5 rounds of .338 or even .30-06/220 over a magazine full of 7.62x39.

But there are arguments for both sides.

Good comments, and a good description of some of the reasons I prefer a revolver.
But since the OP specified auto pistol, instead of discussing which revolver I am more likely to carry in bear country I will limit my comments to which autopistol I carry, when I carry an autopistol in bear country.
I chose .45 Super. I did so because a .45 Super is basically just a .45 ACP with full case support and stronger springs. Mine is a Glock 21 with upgraded springs and a Lone Wolf 5.2" barrel. It works reliably with pretty much any full power .45 ACP ammo, as well as 255 grain flatnose cast bullets at 1100+ fps.

[Pistolero49]

Glock 21 with any type of full power .45 ACP ammo for me.

[Outpost75]

My buddy in Alaska who lives and works in bear country laughs at the notion of handguns for bear protection. Most people don't shoot them well in hot breath confrontations when your balance is upset by the rapid deposit of 2kg of feces and a pint of urine in your bibs. Their work crews keep watch with a 12-ga. shotgun loaded with 00 buck, but he said that the last two bear attacks were thwarted by loggers usjng a Stil 24" woodboss and a double-bitted axe!

[9.3X62AL]

Since my last posting within this thread, Marie and I had another Close Encounter Of The Furred Kind--a cougar this time, in the desert east of Indio and south of I-10. It was nice enough to depart post haste, so no hostilities commenced. It still got our hearts started up right well, though. The Glock 20SF remained holstered (but got unsnapped), and my rebored Win 94 in 38/55 M&B was within a few feet.

Since my carry options got expanded almost 2 years ago, the Glock 23 has become my "city/CCW gun" and the Glock 20 is now my "country pistol". 30+ years with the 10mm Auto has impressed me with its performance, accuracy, and power. I really like the caliber--a lot.

[mtgrs737]

I am a huge 45 ACP fan, but if I were to trek into bear country with only a semi auto handgun for protection it would be a Big Rock 10mm and a spare 16 round mag.

[ReloaderFred]

I'm sure everyone has heard by now of the mountain bikers who were attacked by a cougar in Washington State over the weekend. One was killed, and one was badly mauled. When the police arrived, the cougar ran off into the woods, and they were able to track it and shoot it. The riders had seen the cougar and thought they had scared it away, but when they rode on, it attacked them from behind, which is the way a cougar attacks a victim, whether it's four legged or two legged.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/19/latest-officials-say-cougar-in-fatal-attack-was-shot.html

Living in cougar and bear country has shown me over the years that wild animals are unpredictable, just like people. Whenever my wife and I leave the house, we carry a gun. We've had cougars pass through our yard on occasion, and have bears within yards of the house much too often.

Be careful out there...........

Fred

[9.3X62AL]

Yessir--there's bears in the woods, snakes in the grass--and cougars in the desert. A first for me, but since burro mule deer live there--I suppose cougars will follow to feed upon them.

[robertbank]

Yessir--there's bears in the woods, snakes in the grass--and cougars in the desert. A first for me, but since burro mule deer live there--I suppose cougars will follow to feed upon them.

Yessir and humans are just slow Burros. Easier to catch and just as tasty, I am told. LOL

Take Care

Bob

[Sailormilan2]

I have 3 45 acps that have been set up with mild modifications that allow calibers changes. Two of them are set up to be able to go from 45 acp to 10mm by switching the slide, barrel, and mag.
I consider the 10mm overly powerful for general SD work, but for hunting and/or backwoods SD, it is just fine. 10mm would make a perfectly adequate deer round out to 50 yds, if I do my part. A much better choice, IMHO, than the 45 acp.

[Ramjet-SS]

I am a 10mm fan boy and not afraid to admit it. But given a choice give me a Mossberg Shockwave in bear Country loaded with flight control Federal buckshot. Not having that choice though I prefer the 10mm 6" loaded with 200 Grain hard cast WFN. I did recent tests from my Glock model 40 and Remington R1 and got over 20" of straight line penetration in water soaked news print. It was far better than the 16" with a 45 ACP. 45 is no slouch either and has fantastic track record for stopping power. So thinking either would do the job so long as the shooter has the training and nerves to put rounds on target in a high stress situation.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I chose 45 ACP but usually in the woods I carry a 44 Mag revolver, because it'll hit harder than 230 Gr. TC boolits. I have set up the occasional large meplat round for the first round in the chamber for the 45; Just not doing it lately. And of course it's less stress to NOT have an incident.

My experience with the 1911 family is that, properly set up, and fed the right ammo, they're VERY reliable; If I feed mine 185 grain SWCers it will likely get the occasional FTF, because that's not what it's set up for. I'm a big guy so the recoil on a 45 isn't much (Also, you can teach a tiny gal how to shoot a 1911, holding it in their hand with just their thumb on the enlarged safety, and with just their trigger finger on the trigger - The weapon'll buck some as they're not holding it in their hand, but not buck out of their hand. I want to find some nice tiny gal to demonstrate that with and videotape it, it looks albit different if I do it with my Yeti size hand!)

I don't have a 45 Super or 10mm; If I did I might have marked one of those down. But, so far, I just use 1911 for city and 44 for outdoors, or carry a 12 Gauge for outdoors. You DO want to practice getting a long gun into play quickly, same as you practice draws for Self Defense, it's just YOUR life you'll be saving by practicing, so if you choose not to, it's your choice. :kidding:

[Jtarm]

[QUOTE=35remington;3751821]The suggestion that the 45 ACP can barely push a nonexpanding bullet to break a black bear's skin layer is, I will suggest, quite mistaken.

He didn’t say the .45 barely penetrated the skin, just that they were all amazed at how poorly it penetrated.

[robertbank]

Driving over to Ft. McMurray from Terrace drove by 9 bears feeding for berries along the highways. 3 sows with two cubs each and 3 boars. All were timid and moved into the bush as we drove by at 100Km per. Unless you threaten the cubs mommas just want to get along with their lives. If any of you ever come up this way PLEASE do not stop for pics or feed the bears. If you do, you have effectively signed the bears death warrant as they become accustomed to humans which usually ends bad for both.

Take Care

Bob

[Jtarm]

I haven’t seen a live bear outside of a zoo, but have considerable experience in feral hog country and handgun hunting deer.

If I wanted to drop a deer humanely, be protected from bears, or kill hogs (which are vermin in my neck of the woods), there’d be a big (.40 cal and up) magnum revolver on my hip, probably a .44 loaded with LBT 280 WFNs pushed to 1,000 FPS.

Yes, someone’s buddy dropped a grizzly with a .40 S&W, some folks regularly kill deer with their .45 ACP. In 1953, an Indian woman killed the world record grizzly with a .22 long.

Likely more bears have been killed with spears and arrows than all handgun calibers combined.

That doesn’t make any of them ideal (actually, no handgun is.)

Out of your list, I’d opt for the 10mm.

Capacity beyond five rounds is meaning less. If you need 15 rounds to drop a deer, you shouldn’t be hunting with a handgun.

IMO, it is highly unlikely a bear is going to wait around while you put 10+ rounds in to him (I can testify a hog won’t.)

The far more likely scenario with a POed bear at close range is you’ll get two, three shots at most (Howdah pistol, anyone?). If, after six rounds, the bear and I are still standing, I’ll carry on the battle from atop the nearest tree.

Yes I read the anecdote about the bear taking all those .45 rounds, but that only further illustrates that more gun, not more boolits, were needed.

[rfd]

in the deep woods, always a revolver, never semi-auto, .357mag minimum, w/speed loaders handy.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I've had similar reliability with my 1911; Only owned the current one for 40 years. Borrowed my dad's before that. Friends' 9mm once jammed as he had some odd brass (I can't remember the headstamp) with a weird SHARP serrated outside rim (I have NO idea how he found such crummy brass! I'd have thrown it or ground off the serrations; we are talking a quality of 0.2 on a scale of 1 to 10 LOL) - It would catch in his firing pin hole, so he bubbaed it with a dremel to put a fillet in the top of the hole, so it wouldn't catch... That ammo would jam anything but a Contender, is my guess.

If you use bad enough ammo - You can make ANY firearm have a bad day. That's not the firearm's fault, IMO.

And I know - the 45 ACP isn't super powerful; It IS powerful enough for man-size targets. Not really enough for fast stops on a huge bear or the like, and there ARE a few Griz in WA state. It sure wouldn't improve a Grizzly's day though... Nor would a .22 LR. Just wouldn't stop it in its tracks DRT. I use a .44 Rem Mag in the woods, but if I come up against a serious threat like a Griz I don't expect a speed loader to be much help due to their speed; If it's a 2-legged threat though, one might need that. 50 rounds or so's probably enough though?

[stubshaft]

I chose the .45 ACP because I own a S&W 325 Airlite that weighs 20.5 ounces and can load it up to the point where auto's self destruct.

[35remington]

Jtarm, he did in fact say the GI Ball went “not far past the skin.” In addition, we are to believe that the bear merely stood around while “three magazines” of 45 ACP ball were emptied into it. Shoot to slide lock, fish out a new magazine, shoot to slidelock, fish out another magazine, shoot to slidelock. That’s at least 21 rounds.

The story doesn’t pass the “smell test.” I suspect that someone did not let the “story” suffer for likely detail.

Sorry. Ain’t buying that. Black bear are not armor plated. The ACP is not my idea of a bear round but the suggestion that it cannot drive a nonexoanding bullet deep enough to reach a black bear’s vitals is incorrect.

[robertbank]

I just ran into this on one of our forums up here. It was taken off of the Armco website. The author, Gunar C. is the fellow who developed the 45-08 cartridge.

"The Armco 45-08 BD

What is it?

This is actually nothing new. Enterprising shooters have been creating stronger .45ACP cases for over 80 years, using first 30-06 cases, and recently .308. The mechanism by which this is achieved has varied, with more or less usable results.
Three things were needed and have recently come to pass:
1. First, a workable, professional way to prepare the cases, as opposed to the old methods of hacksawing and trimming the cases to length and then reaming the necks by hand. This resulted in uneven case wall thickness and poor cases (and worse accuracy). We have developed a die that holds the .308 case perfectly concentric to the reamer which then bottoms in the web of the case, ensuring a consistent depth of cut and identical case volumes. This is of course necessary in order to ensure consistent, safe, accurate loads. The cutting to length is achieved at the same time, with the case locked in place in the lathe. Repeatable and achieving a reasonable cost per case.
2. The second need was a good powder. Until a couple of years ago, shooters were experimenting with Unique, Blue Dot, even very good powders like Vihtavuori N105, the one I had the highest hopes for. The pressure was not a problem for the cases, but we hit the wall with primers. Even magnum rifle ones flowed and perforated, indicating pressures well above the 60,000 psi range. Mind you, we were getting a LOT of speed! Hodgdon brought out their new “Longshot” powder, and boy did it work! All of a sudden, another hundred plus FPS was attainable, with PISTOL PRIMERS!
3. The third need was for an understanding of how to keep a 1911 running under brutal conditions. That came from the experience of pistolsmiths such as myself with the knowledge of how to keep these guns running for a hundred thousand rounds or more of full power ammo. A few hundred rounds – even a couple thousand - of this stuff is no problem for a strong gun.

How does the gun survive 200 grain bullets at 1400+ fps? Contrary to the guys touting the .45 Super (a pretty anemic round compared to this), and even the .460 Rowland (which also uses a comp to control the slide speed), we do NOT need a 28 lb recoil spring. These brutal springs introduce new problems (we’ve tried them) such as harsh feeding and bullet setback and feed failures. Ejection really didn’t seem to be any less violent. A 20 or 22 lb spring works really well, especially if coupled with the excellent .200” Red Buff by Chuck Hiett. A necessity (because of the slide speed) is good, stiff magazine springs. New ones work, especially Para Ordnance ones, but worn out mag springs WILL cause nose-up feed failures. I recommend HD Wolff ones. The rest of the gun needs no modification, except that it needs to be a good strong, tight gun, with sufficient barrel lug engagement in order to avoid barrel and slide lug battering. No AMT’s or Auto Ordnance guns need apply. No surprise to me, we have a lot of Norinco’s in the woods with these loads, and they seem to last well. Not pretty but strong as hell. Sometimes a slightly longer link is beneficial if your barrel lock-up is less than optimal. A full length guide rod is nice, but not essential.
How about the shooter? One modification that REALLY helps is a good (not a drop-in) beavertail. Recoil gets quite noticeable. I have a guy running this stuff in a stock Commander, but it KICKS! And he’s not running max. loads… All that aside, these guns really don’t hurt like a Casull, or even a .44 Magnum. Pretty similar to a REALLY hot .38 Super. Everyone who shoots one asks for another magazine…




Now, as to loads. You can run almost whatever you like because of the tremendously strong cases, but for the HOT loads, try Longshot. We start at 10 grains of Longshot and a 200 grain hard cast SWC bullet. Large pistol primer. I know it seats a little below flush, but it works great. I’ve used Winchester and CCI with good results. For some guns with small firing pins – a couple of Springfield models, for instance – we have experienced pierced primers and have gone to rifle primers. If you use rifle primers in yours, loads stay the same and they go off just great. For 230’s, start at 9.0 grains. MY maximum (I suggest you stop before that) is 12.5 grains with the 200 for over 1500 fps, and 11.0 grains with a 230 grain Jacketed flat nose bullet. My suggestion is a MAXIMUM of 11.5 and 10.5 grains for these two weights. I have not played with lighter bullets because our need here is for a bear defense load, and we need penetration above all. This is the reason for the 200 grain hard cast bullet. The flat nose cuts through clean and at 1400 fps (the 11.5 grain load), it goes a long ways through muscle and bone. At 1500 it REALLY hits hard! The 230 grain Noslers I tested at about 1300 generated more slide speed and ejection (and pressure). I like the 200’s as the energy numbers (yes, I know, I know…) are substantially higher. My own loads generate a half ton of energy, and that’s exactly what my 4” 629 does for me. And the revolver – much as I dearly love it - is a noticeably bigger gun, slower to shoot (EXACTLY half the split times between aimed shots), and holds 6 rounds compared to 11 for my Para Ordnance. AND not nearly as nice to carry as a 5” 1911, even a “wide-body”.

Shootability? We have played a lot with these guns and my best time for four A-Zone hits on an IPSC target at 12 yards was .8 seconds. That’s from the first to fourth shot for just over a quarter of a second per shot. Not a pretty group but all four were center hits. Pretty slow by IPSC standards, but my best with the revolver is double that. That’s where we justify a load and gun combination like this in Bear Country. A bear at 12 yards starts a charge. You basically have time for 8 aimed shots with the auto and 4 shots with the revolver – If you have it out and ready. Given a shooter thoroughly familiar with the 1911, he has a hell of a lot better chance of walking away.
As a point of interest, my initial testing almost two years ago was with a commander-length barrel in a Springfield Defender. It ran a 2 port compensator, and was a sweet gun to shoot with these loads. It was when I switched to a non-compensated gun that the slide speed gremlins caught up with me and I had to pop new HD springs into my old Shooting Star magazines. I don’t need to mention that the gun should have a good well adjusted extractor in it to pull these empties out reliably, but we have never had a problem getting empties out!!
To date, the threshold is caused not by pressure or gun battering, but by recoil and slide speed, as well as primer flow and blowby. Not that we need to push past that particular threshold at all. I think we have what we need. A gun that will never match a .454 Casull, but is a very viable alternative to a short, carryable .44 Magnum with more firepower, similar power, and better ergonomics.

Going further? 6” slide guns, 5 ½” barreled compensated carry guns, etc. all would make sense for Bear Carry, and would raise the bar of performance. 1600 fps with 200’s is easily attainable with the right barrel length and a comp, but do we need it?
What’s this NEED stuff, anyway J??
In conclusion, please realize that I don’t know your gun or reloading practices, and I urge you to start low and be careful. Use your chronograph. You ARE on your own. And I really appreciate feedback. I have a couple of neat videos of these loads being fired, and more would be great.

Gunnar Christensen"

Please note this was written some time ago and Gunnar has since retired from competition and gunsmithing.

Take Care

Bob

[Groo]

Groo here
I wonder if the new Novx 2 part case is as strong as the 4508?????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????

[robertbank]

Groo I am not sure of your question. The 45-08 cases are made from 308 cases, I have some made from 30-06 as well. I think any in the 30-06 family would work. The cases are pretty hefty at the webbing which seems to be the major concern. 45acp brass is relatively thin there and is the issue going to a high pressure round like the 45-08. I am not at all familiar ith the Novx2 case.

Take Care

Bob

[Groo]

Groo here
The Novx case is a 2 part case , an Alu rim and a S steel body.
Just saw a test where the 9mm case was loaded some 10 times at +P+/9mm major before showing wear.
If the 45 is built the same way, we may have a whole new level of loads for the 45+P/super/45-08 level loads!!!

[robertbank]

Groo here
The Novx case is a 2 part case , an Alu rim and a S steel body.
Just saw a test where the 9mm case was loaded some 10 times at +P+/9mm major before showing wear.
If the 45 is built the same way, we may have a whole new level of loads for the 45+P/super/45-08 level loads!!!

I'll leave that to the young and the brave and the fearless.

Take Care

Bob