are musket caps supposed to be so violent at the lock?

[Whiterabbit]

So, I'm trying a new nipple, got a musket cap nipple. put it on, and it seems there's a little misalignment at the hammer. No problem, just shim the lock, we are just testing here, not making things permanent yet.

So I get it "good enough", then put a cap on there and pull the trigger. Loud, loud pop, and the musket cap is pretty roughed up. Makes sense to me, priming compound is all over the inside of the cap, but the nipple has a hole that is only so large...

Anyways, it seems to me like much more violence is happening around the cap than at the dirt and leaves I point the muzzle towards when I do the barrel blockage test.

I haven't (had the opportunity yet to) test fired the rifle yet.

so, for musket cap users, is the cap supposed to blow open under fire? is it supposed to be underwhelming out the muzzle when checking for barrel blockage? Am I thinking too hard about this? Or is something "not performing right"?

[Whiterabbit]

here's a pic of a used cap. To "catch" the fire and debris or whatever comes out from around the cap, I wrapped a paper towel around the nipple when I fired, that is in the image too. Not too charred or tattered up, but there's definite release of fire.

Not sure if normal....

[Omnivore]

Yes, it is intended to be a violent explosion, though it is both small and violent. That's where you get ignition reliability in situations that are not perfect, like a long flash channel that turns a 90 degree corner before it reaches the the barrel bore. You're not getting a big blast out the muzzle because of the large volume inside the barrel-- the cap blast just need to be violent at the ignition point, and it is.

It's a bit like the difference between, say, a fire cracker and ten pounds of ANFO. The firecracker explodes at a higher velocity, but the ANFO will move tons of earth. The musket cap only needs to be violent at the flash port where it meets the powder. The powder then does the work. The priming compound, if I recall correctly, is classified as a high explosive, so the little energy it releases is released very quickly. The powder charge burns more slowly, but delivers vastly more total energy.

If you put a charge of priming compound down the bore, equal to the weight of the powder, in place of the powder, it would turn the gun into a high efficiency pipe bomb, which would explode and kill you, along with any bystanders. There's that much difference.

There are a lot of ways to explain it, and I'm already being repetitive, but here's another;
The total energy from the cap is very small compared to the main powder charge, but the cap's energy is released in an extremely short time, creating a very high heat/pressure spike of very short duration. By the time it gets out the muzzle after you snap a cap on an empty barrel, it's just a little "puff".

Even the less powerful #10 and 11 percussion caps, containing a tiny little wafer of compound not much bigger than a pin head, will nearly always split the copper cup open when fired. It's pretty awesome stuff.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Powder exerts its force by the movement of the gases it generates, but with high explosives, which primer composition is, it isn't quite so simple. A wave-front passes through the compound itself, commencing the reaction as it progresses in the true sense of the much-misused word detonation, and then through the air. It isn't as subject to changes of direction, and it doesn't build up. Double a powder charge and you get double the gas, and double the pressure if it is confined. Have a thousand waves a day hit the shore, and the water doesn't build up any higher. A seagull that sits still on the water just bobs up and down.

Wood and metal might be 3/4 inch from the explosion of the cap, and are therefore part of a sphere with its surface area proportional to the square of 3/4inch. The muzzle is part of a sphere with surface area proportional to the square of about thirty inches.

[Hickok]

Musket caps are powerful. Avoid the CCI "re-enactor" caps as they are weak.

I use RWS caps in my Enfields.

[bedbugbilly]

I've used many, many musket caps over the years . . Alan, German, Navy Arms and the list goes on. They are more powerful that what most people are used to in regards to say a #10 or a #11 . . common sense should dictate that as they are larger and contain more priming charge. It is not uncommon with some musket caps to have they either remain in one piece altering firing, to expand out equally on all wings or to have one missing a wing after firing. I never liked the musket caps that did not have "wings" - they look like a large standard percussion cap as the wings help you flick the cap off the nipple after firing if stuck. It's not uncommon to have one stick . especially when firing many rounds such as in a N-SSA match.

Perhaps the OP could be a little more specific as to exactly what he is doing? You talk about misalignment and wedging the lock - is this on an existing rifle/fowler? Are you building one? Are you trying to use a musket nipple on a rifle that is intended to have a smaller nipple? If a lock/barrel/nipple that is intended to sue a musket nipple/cap is properly aligned, there shouldn't be an issue with excessive "explosive outburst" at the nipple. When the hammer falls, the majority of the ignition should be going directly down the nipple and into the ignition chamber into the breech . . and you should get adequate movement out of the end of the barrel against leaves, etc when doing a pre-check before loading. If a hammer cup and nipple top are not properly aligned and the two surfaces meeting squarely . . then you are going to have more gasses, etc. going out around the nipple area. Again, common sense. If the hammer is eating the nipple at an angle and not falling flat - you have a space where the cap can move up to meet the hammer cup and as a result, an area for gas to escape . . and the cap will most likely be deformed to show it.For that very reason, that is why it is important, whether with a patent breech, a drum and nipple or even the case of rifled musket breeches, it is important that the inner surface of the hamer cup meets the top of the nipple squarely and in full contact with the top of the nipple.

[jrmartin1964]

so, for musket cap users, is the cap supposed to blow open under fire?

Yes. Just like the one in your picture.

[jrmartin1964]

Not sure if normal....

Perfectly normal. They're supposed to do that.

[scattershot]

The petals will open when the cap fires, but I never noticd anything violent or dangerous about it. You should, however, get a pretty good "puff" from the end of the barrel when it goes off. The cap should fit snugly on the nipple, and be struck squarely by the hammer. Sounds to me like you may have a blocked flash channel.

[curator]

Some "musket-cap" replacement nipples, particularly those made of AMPCO bronze have very tiny flash holes. These are designed to increase the heat/velocity of the primer charge but do result in more "flash" at the lock end. If the original lock was made with #11 caps in mind, the hammer's recessed face may not effectively contain cap fragments and allow some of the explosion to vent in various unknown directions. The tiny flash hole also reduces the "puff" of air at the muzzle when caps are popped to ascertain a clear flash channel prior to loading the first time. Using a hotter, more powerful musket cap on a rifle designed to use #11 caps does not always result in better performance unless you are using one of the very difficult to ignite BP substitutes.

[Fly]

Ya it takes a lot to fire off a 1863 sharps. Quote (Musket caps are powerful. Avoid the CCI "re-enactor" caps as they are weak.)?????
I keep hearing that & read many saying the same. But I have a box of 1000 & not had any problem with them with my Sharps???? They
say reenactor on the box. Sooooooooooooo they work for me, just saying.

Fly

[OverMax]

Shooting musket caps sometimes requires one of these thingys. Otherwise known as a >Flash Cup.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/805/1/FLASH-CUP-2-I


(https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/805/1/FLASH-CUP-2-I)

[OverMax]

If wanting to step up a traditional side lock rifles ignition from #11 to musket. Don't waste your time.
Buy this nipple adapter right from the get go and never regret the effort (link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ehUuoLfa4

[quail4jake]

I didn't catch what kind of firearm to which you're adapting a musket nipple. If it's not a repro or original percussion musket I would stick to No. 11 caps with all the permutations of improved nipples, hot shot or 209 adapters etc. Musket caps are really designed for the large, clunky locks of military arms and I've rarely seen success in adapting them to semi modern front stuffers but if you want to try...
The fired cap you show is correct, wings expanded out and cap falls off when the hammer is cocked. Free advice (worth the price paid)...use RWS 1080 caps, avoid CCIs, wear good eye protection if you're going to use up old 6 wing caps they notoriously break off wings the can fly into eyes. If the nipple you're trying is a Treso ampco bronze standard "cone" (the ordinance dep't. term for nipple) that will likely have a .028" base hole. Notice that the hole you see at the top of the nipple is large...about .078", look at the bottom (base) and notice it is small and very thin maybe .040". This is the base hole and is intended to transmit enough hot gas and flames into the flash channel of a musket to fire the main charge rapidly but limit the amount of blowback to the nipple / hammer interface. This is intended for live firing with all the breech pressures generated by the resistance of a ball, it does a few things: keeps breech pressures more consistent and improves grouping, limits the flash and gas escaping from the cap / nipple end area, helps the meticulously calculating psyche of N-SSAers reach orgasm more quickly (quite a sight to see) and other benefits.
Wow! what a great idea, why doesn't everyone just adapt all muzzle loaders to a small basehole cone and use musket caps!? Well, because in the big custard stand of life some folks like chocolate jimmys and some like rainbow sprinkles. Kind of like saying "why would anyone vote for someone who is not liberal? isn't that the ideal that to which we should all subscribe? that way we can eliminate all this disagreement and walk lock step and think the same; all get along and sing 'kum by ya' (sp.?) around the campfire of monothought!" Oh, my apologies, I thought this was the Orwell thread.
OK, back to earth. I am a Civil War reenactor who has little time for trivia and all this basehole stuff...we have a war on our hands and our blessed UNION must be save using 60 gr. charges of FFFg powder...cheap! Right. So, really, I admire our N-SSA colleagues very much but the needs of the historic reenactor are different. Our powder only blank adaptation is the drilled out cone, 5/64" drill right through the damn thing. Bad idea for live fire since ALOT od gas comes back and you can really feel it if you try a live round this way, did I mention eye protection? When you fire a cap on one of these the muzzle blast will make grass, dirt move when fired at the ground which is exactly what we do in inspection arms. We also clean muskets by pouring warm water right down the muzzle and draining through the cone the clean the flash channel, try that with a small basehole cone! Now fire that same RWS 1080 cap on a drilled out cone and you'll see how much less debris flies from around it, since it's going right down the bore.
We live in a world of gray zones and this is no different. I have found different basehole size sweet spots for all kinds of muskets...drilled out to .078" (5/64) for powder only blanks in anything, about .063" (1/16) for any significant amount of wadding used and larger powder charge blanks (for firing in parades and ceremonies to get the crowd's attention and frighten liberals), .040" for the cal. .69 smoothbore firing ball or buck & ball, and the tight .028" for any expanding (Minie) ball rifle. I have never found any good data of what original Springfield muskets had from the arsenal, I've examined original cones that were anywhere from .035" to completely cylindrical and very large bore...did they change cones for different use? I will ask Erskine Allin next time I see him! If anyone has information on this please chime in, I'm all ears.
Useful advice to those foolish enough to listen. Keep musket cones on muskets, RWS 1080 caps, try different basehole sizes, I really like Treso nipples, wear eye protection, be wary of politicians who offer simple solutions (like...think my way, it will relieve you of the burden of choice), shoot often and respect the thoughts and ways of others, don't lie to mom, close the toilet seat in house full of chicks, be British (capt. Smith of the Titanic), blaaa blaaa blaaa.
BTW you can adjust the basehole on No. 11 nipples too, maybe that would be better? I use Treso No. 11s in my 1860 Colt and get great results and those baseholes are.020"! Have fun and thanks for tolerating this rant.
On Election day, thank a vet!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

yep, any exposed ignition will be nasty and scary. You should see a 209 primer on an older inline that had a slotted breech plug!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Some "musket-cap" replacement nipples, particularly those made of AMPCO bronze have very tiny flash holes. These are designed to increase the heat/velocity of the primer charge but do result in more "flash" at the lock end.

I think you are right, but nipples with minimal sized holes are also intended to allow for erosion. This is a great problem with high pressure muzzle loaders, such as the elongated-bullet .450 match rifles. As the nipple erodes, it will allow through enough powder gas to lift the hammer, particularly if the hammer is unwisely light. The flash will then become distracting and perhaps dangerous, and nipple erosion even faster.

It is an interesting point that powder gases will do this, but primer gases obstructed by that tiny hole probably won't.

[Whiterabbit]

well, turns out to be a non issue. Holy black in the barrel, nipple in place, charge isn't set off. So these nipples won't work for me.

[Whiterabbit]

If wanting to step up a traditional side lock rifles ignition from #11 to musket. Don't waste your time.
Buy this nipple adapter right from the get go and never regret the effort (link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ehUuoLfa4

overmax, any tips for spent primer extraction? I have one of those too and often times the 209 gets terribly stuck. I'd use them for everything but I can't always deprime by hand.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ger a small pair of circlip pliers, which open when you press the handles, and file or grind the tips like tiny pry bars.

[Whiterabbit]

did you mean close when you press the handles? wouldn't that provide better grip on the 209 than open-when-pressed?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

did you mean close when you press the handles? wouldn't that provide better grip on the 209 than open-when-pressed?

No, open, like you would want to remove an external circlip, fitting a groove on a metal rod. For the opposite, the circlip in a piston's wristpin hole, you would need the opposite, pliers which close with pressure like general-purpose ones do.

I positioned one of the little pry-bar tips under the bottom edge of the cap, and the other contacted the wider part of the nipple. It is handier if there is a spring to hold the handles apart until you squeeze, but you can improvise that by gluing a piece of eraser in place.

[Edward]

I shoot all afternoon with a Magspark with NO STICKING I just wipe primer with a little CVA patch grease ,given to me and has no other use except this .Takes but a moment but less time and way less frustrating than unsticking a stuck primer ! I imagine any lube would work try it .

[Whiterabbit]

I may try that, but it would be nice to have a ready-solution for trail walks where we fire 20-25 rounds from station to station.

Of course this is mostly just an irritant when on a bench at the range or if out in the field and only going to be shooting 1-2 rounds. But shooting from a bag, using this thing gets tricky.

[Col4570]

I always squeeze Top hat caps between finger and thumb prior to fitting especially on a double shotgun to avoid the second barrel cap jumping off.I usualy cap off before loading,I point the Gun/Rifle at the grass and watch for movement,a clear nipple will disturb anything light if the nipple is clear.For some time now I have Converted to top hats rather than No 11s since there is more whoomph.Plus the Larger cap is easier to handle.