New Poster...Cartridge Idea (I think)

[tcochr]

Folks,

Is is possible to create a Pistol Cartridge (brass) out of Cardboard. I have seen some rifles that use a paper bag rolled around a mandrel to build up thickness that gets a flash hole, powder and a bullet wedged into the paper cartridge. What is the risk of using the same technique to create a ...lets say .38 Short/LC/Spc/S&W cartridge? and just glue in a primer? One could use a heeled bullet from a LEE 90378 mold to get the bullet to size in the barrel (for a .36 BP/38LC barrel)

I don't know...just an idea. I know brass is cheap, but this might work...once.

LTC C-

[Jeffrey]

Sounds almost like the idea behind old paper shotshell hulls. Never heard of any that did not have at least a metal head.

[GhostHawk]

Military has been looking at caseless ammo for a while now.

Be cautious, that brass holds in most of the pressure, seals to the chamber walls under pressure.
Remove the brass and the chamber gets significantly more pressure and the bolt face/firing pin area could see a huge increase.

[dverna]

The old Activ shotshells were all plastic expect for an imbedded ring of steel for the extractor to work on. But shot shells are low pressure - under 12,000 psi in 12 ga.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

tcochr--Welcome to the forum! Caseless ammo is not a new idea. Both the US and Germans have periodically worked on the idea for a long time. The German company of H&K developed an operational system that was almost adopted. The caseless cartridge consists of an elongated pellet of fully combustible propellant pressed onto the base of the bullet and it's ignited electronically. But for some reason it's never achieved full acceptance, and long term storage of the ammunition and subsequent deterioration may be part of the problem, as well as moisture resistance. H&k's idea, as I recall, utilized completely sealed disposable plastic magazines. There would be a huge savings in both cost and weight if the brass case could be successfully eliminated, but it looks like we're not quite there yet. The idea really isn't a new one, as nitrated paper cartridges were used as far back as the Civil War where the paper was largely consumed by the firing, but in those designs gas leakage and fouling were problems.

[tcochr]

In BP chambers there is no metal cartridge. So I am not sure the logic that the cartridge contains most of the high pressure, and if that was a real issue, the brass would expand to fill up the cylinder and be hard to eject. That has never happened to my cartridge guns. ( but it could maybe).

In 94 I got to see those 7,62 caseless rounds. I think they were called 'consumable'. The gun was a bull pup design and it was at picatinny arsenal. Did not see it shoot though.


This is just a idea for cheaper, homemade cases. So, why not make (non consumable/ non nitrated) cartridges from thick cardboard ( that won't smolder). Like I said, it's just an idea. I wonder if anyone has ever tried it. If loaded very light, it may be an idea.

Or... Am I wayyyy off base.

Tim

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The old Activ shotshells were all plastic expect for an imbedded ring of steel for the extractor to work on. But shot shells are low pressure - under 12,000 psi in 12 ga.

There were also the Wanda shotshells of the 60s and 70s, which were translucent so that you could actually see the load. I don't know what use that would be, but it is interesting. They didn't include any metal except the primer, and I think they may even have preceded the plastic-and-metal cases we have today.

This is such an attractive proposition that like many others we have to ask why they aren't all doing it that way. The makers claimed they were reloadable forever, which wasn't quite true at the best of times, and I have seen pictures of old and possibly embrittled ones loaded in recent years which ruptured badly on the first firing. Only a press-in top wad needed to be replaced, and if they were reusable at all, they would have demanded less equipment than usual. They looked like they were thicker than modern plastic tubes, which would be good for anyone using shotgun slugs, who wants the bore and interior of the case to be as close as possible. If the things could plink out of a machine like plastic teaspoons, reloading at all mightn't be much of an issue. My guess is that there are plastics that would do it, but they would be more expensive than ordinary cases.

I don't believe there was a rim problem with the Wanda cases in conventional double or single guns, but I would guess that it came in with automatic or perhaps pump guns.

In the past paper cases would be either sealing or combustible. It can't be both at the same time, and with sealing ones the problem is getting them out in their entirety. You can make a pretty good large-bore revolver cartridge with approximately shotgun pressures, and a revolver with a throat accurately dimensioned to match the bullet would reduce the harmful effect on accuracy of a bullet not entering the rifling precisely concentrically.

You will find a lot that is interesting in soft but not combustible cases if you search for "Chassepot", the French rifle of their 1870 war which did indeed outclass the Prussian needle gun by a large margin. But in those days it was still assumed that mass units would fire volleys. It is honourable to let the other 99% carry you if your gun jams, but in other circumstances you can't get 1% killed.

[tcochr]

I'm gong to redeploy home next month. I'm going to take some leave and try to tinker with a brass-like thick paper cartridge (real thick). I'll keep you posted on what I learn. This should work. ( famous words before an emergency room visit).

[NavyVet1959]

This thread probably should have been in one of the other subforums, not the Testing Area.

[tcochr]

I want to test a new cartridge. If I was wrong. Sorry.

Damn new posters. Sheeez!

[NavyVet1959]

If a firearm is designed for it, sure, it could work. For that matter, the 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships used six 110 lb silk bags of powder for their charge and there wasn't a brass casing. On a side note, the powder kernel size for those guns was 2" long and 1" in diameter. Yeah, let's see how well that meters with our powder measures... :)

[NavyVet1959]

I want to test a new cartridge. If I was wrong. Sorry.

Damn new posters. Sheeez!

No big deal... Maybe one of the admins will be around and move it to a more appropriate location. The Testing Area is for testing things like whether you can post or how to post photos -- that sort of stuff. Posts here don't count in your total post count either -- that's why even though you've made a couple of posts, your post count is still zero. :)

[tcochr]

getting it in the right forum would be nice. Thank you moderator ( if you see this).

Tim

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Say, tcochr, notice that--I guess--because this is the testing area for posts you haven't gotten any credit for the posts you've made, and still have a 0 count. Just a curiosity worth mentioning. Of course, you don't want to get too many posts because you'll be considered a veteran poster and perhaps your appearance will change to be similar to that of NavyVet1959's as shown in his avatar. ;-)

Now, getting back to the subject, you gave an example of black powder guns not having a cartridge case.
True, but in that case the combustion area of the barrel base and sides acts as a case to contain the combustion. And since it's a blind hole with no way out except up the barrel and out the muzzle, that works. But what I was trying to get across in my original answer to your question is that Gun Design will have to precede the fruition of your idea. I can't off the top of my head think of any common design in which a purely paper/cardboard case would suffice to prevent rearward exit of the pressure and gasses as is the case with a black powder arm. So I think that will be a requirement of your test gun, a completely sealed breech. Be careful in your experimentation, but good luck as well--you may be the next John Browning. Oh--an afterthought--Smith and Wesson was one of the early caseless cartridge experiments. They had a submachine gun that used the compressed pellet approach, but didn't work out.

[NavyVet1959]

Even if you came up with a design that replaced the brass with something that was completely consumed, you would still need to eject the spent primer unless you designed a completely new system that used an electrical spark to ignite the powder. The electrical portion has been done before on certain military large guns (e.g. cannons).

[mozeppa]

tcochr--Welcome to the forum! Caseless ammo is not a new idea. Both the US and Germans have periodically worked on the idea for a long time. The German company of H&K developed an operational system that was almost adopted. The caseless cartridge consists of an elongated pellet of fully combustible propellant pressed onto the base of the bullet and it's ignited electronically. But for some reason it's never achieved full acceptance, and long term storage of the ammunition and subsequent deterioration may be part of the problem, as well as moisture resistance. H&k's idea, as I recall, utilized completely sealed disposable plastic magazines. There would be a huge savings in both cost and weight if the brass case could be successfully eliminated, but it looks like we're not quite there yet. The idea really isn't a new one, as nitrated paper cartridges were used as far back as the Civil War where the paper was largely consumed by the firing, but in those designs gas leakage and fouling were problems.

i think the problem with the propellant on the back of the projectile was one of accuracy.
same as the gyrojet of the 60's

in common cased ammo today, the bullet leaves the barrel at maximum speed and slows from there.

in the case-less ammo the propellant is electrically ignited and the bullet leaves the barrel at a much slower speed then accelerates to a faster speed ....thus , worse accuracy.

[mozeppa]

p.s.

black powder does not compare to smokeless
if you use smokeless powder in a bare cylinder like it was a cap & ball gun ....you may just end up dead.
pressures are way different...and rates of speed at which they burn are equally different.

be safe!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Even if you came up with a design that replaced the brass with something that was completely consumed, you would still need to eject the spent primer unless you designed a completely new system that used an electrical spark to ignite the powder. The electrical portion has been done before on certain military large guns (e.g. cannons).

Electrical ignition and ignition by a jet of compression-heated air (the latter, I think, only likely to work with black powder) were both done well back in the nineteenth century. I've seen a drawing of a gun with a Leyden jar in the butt.Electricity, in particular, offers the chance of a peculiarly good trigger-pull, but that was never enough to overcome the advantages. I forget which major manufacturer tried to reintroduce it a few years back, but despite modern electronics it never caught on.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This thread probably should have been in one of the other subforums, not the Testing Area.
I moved this to "case forming"

[17nut]

In BP chambers there is no metal cartridge. So I am not sure the logic that the cartridge contains most of the high pressure, and if that was a real issue, the brass would expand to fill up the cylinder and be hard to eject. That has never happened to my cartridge guns. ( but it could maybe).

In 94 I got to see those 7,62 caseless rounds. I think they were called 'consumable'. The gun was a bull pup design and it was at picatinny arsenal. Did not see it shoot though.


This is just a idea for cheaper, homemade cases. So, why not make (non consumable/ non nitrated) cartridges from thick cardboard ( that won't smolder). Like I said, it's just an idea. I wonder if anyone has ever tried it. If loaded very light, it may be an idea.

Or... Am I wayyyy off base.

Tim

Lets see:
A 38SPL case will set you back @14 cents a pop and they will last at least 30-40 reloadings so thats under ½ a cent for every firing. Tell me how you can make paper cases cheaper than that and please take into account that you could pull an extra hour of work to pay for that brass instead of fiddling with cardboard and Elmers glue.

[tcochr]

the whole 'someone else's cases are cheaper makes the most sense' argument is not why I got into this hobby. But is is cheaper in the sense of making your own case, without owning a ammunition factory. I'd try this because I can. I just hope there aren't any medical bills.

[victorfox]

You should read about the Voere electric rifle and there a 10-22 conversion to electric muzzleloader.

I think a shotshell in a break barrel action might be feasible for what you want. Bulleted cartridge? No so much, just take a look at the foil 577/450 failure.

[NavyVet1959]

The way I understand how the powder bags were made for the 16" guns on the Iowa class battleships, on one end of each powder bag was a section of black powder that was quilted to the end. Originally, there was some sort of mechanical primer that ignited these that could be manually replaced in the event of a misfire. I seem to remember reading something about an electrical primer being tested at one time -- probably after the ship had been brought out of mothballs and refitted with more modern gear.

[NavyVet1959]

Electrical ignition and ignition by a jet of compression-heated air (the latter, I think, only likely to work with black powder) were both done well back in the nineteenth century. I've seen a drawing of a gun with a Leyden jar in the butt.Electricity, in particular, offers the chance of a peculiarly good trigger-pull, but that was never enough to overcome the advantages. I forget which major manufacturer tried to reintroduce it a few years back, but despite modern electronics it never caught on.

Remington Etronx...

Primers still available, but considerably more expensive... $195 / 1000...
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/831855/remington-etronx-electronic-primers-box-of-1000-10-trays-of-100

https://support.remington.com/Private/What_is_the_EtronX%3F

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=51&tocid=668

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/12/chris-dumm/electric-cartridge-primers-gone-but-not-lamented

[tcochr]

Now Artillery is something I know about. I am an active duty artilleryman. Yes Black powder is used on some older propellants (155mm Charge 8 Red Bag). The 155MM (and old 8inch gun) primer is almost exactly like a .410 shotshell (I never mic'd one) and it says MK 14 on the headstamp. Powder bags are mostly gone now (shot them all up in Iraq). Currently the Army uses Modular Artillery Charges *(MACS) and it really cuts down on 'cutting charges' and all the powder waste with the old Bag charges. The MACS charges look like Toilet paper rolls...And each charge is essentially on big fat 3 pound powder grain (not really, but you can imagine it that way). But I digress...

Back to the idea at hand.

I think you have all given me some ground rules for developing this concept:
No it is not convenient to roll your own paper .38 cartridge.- Given, understood, message received.
No it should not be consumable. - I want to reuse them if possible.
No the case volume is not the same, the thickness of the paper walls will diminish the case volume considerably.- This part I am totally unsure about, but 'should' be safer with less powder volume.
No it is not meant for rimless cartridges (or semi-autos for that matter). - Focusing on .38 here
Yes BP could be used if there is no air gap between bullet and powder. (this needs to be tested...maybe not be me just yet)- BP loads for 38 spc are all over the place...just be sure fill up the case (no air gap).
No it should not be for heavy or magnum loads. - It's paper...come on!
Yes it should be reusable (at least a few times)- Should be, we'll see I guess.
Yes you should be able to make it at home, and spend some of your valuable time doing something that a corporation does at a fraction of the cost. -That's why Americans build hot-rods right? But $0.14 is 20% the price of one Barley soda. So....personal decision here, I'll spend the money on the soda, and make a paper cartridge for fun (but not at the same time).

Tim

[NavyVet1959]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm6PEdBcQ6s

[tcochr]

Electric primers sound complicated...I never considered them. And I still don't. This cardstock cartridge would use a std small pistol primer. Either press fit or glued in.

Thank You for that impressive video! Lots of brainpower on that inventor!
Thank You

[NavyVet1959]

Electric primers sound complicated...I never considered them. And I still don't. This cardstock cartridge would use a std small pistol primer. Either press fit or glued in.

Thank You for that impressive video! Lots of brainpower on that inventor!
Thank You

From what I understand, the system that Remington used consisted of a new primer compound that was more susceptible to the electrical ignition system of their rifle. The rifle had a circuit board that took up a good portion of the rifle's stock also.

I seem to remember the Phalanx naval 20mm gun system used a sort of electrical primer. A quick Google search brought up this paper that you might find interesting.

www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA514389

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The internet is full of instructions to make a fairly tough but biodegradable plastic from corn or potato starch. I've just bought but not yet used (on eBay, which tempts me like Satan did Christ in the wilderness) what might be the same thing, described as polymorph thermoplastic. This is a misnomer, though. "Thermoplastic" sounds like it should be used for plastics which soften under heat, but in fact has come to mean those which solidify when heated, like Bakelite. The instructions for Polymorph are:
1,Simply heat the pellets in water to over 42C (Needs water that's been boiled).
2,Leave the pellets to melt in the water until they turn transparent.
3,Remove the pellets from the water and mould by hand (add color at this stage if required)
4,Allow the polymorph to cool until solid.
5,Re-heat if further molding is required.

It feels like it might be resilient enough to make sabots for round ball, that fit the inside of a plastic shotgun case. But if you must make your own cases, and if it really solidifies without leaving weakness between the pellets, it strikes me that it might be a better way of doing it than paper. Unlike a hotrod it might come acceptably close to the performance of a brass case, but won't be any better.

Large naval guns depend on a permanent or partly-permanent obturatinng pad in the breechblock, which I don't believe could be duplicated in a small firearm, or added to an existing one.

[labradigger1]

Not a totally new idea. Look into daisy/heddon VL rifle from the late 60's

[NavyVet1959]

Large naval guns depend on a permanent or partly-permanent obturatinng pad in the breechblock, which I don't believe could be duplicated in a small firearm, or added to an existing one.

Might as well do a cap-and-ball type revolver that could use smokeless powder instead. :)

[big bore 99]

yes on the Daisy prototype. I think the original Volcanic rifle used something of that sort too. Also the original .58 cal. Gatling guns.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I believe Hunt's rocket ball was used in only two forms, the very rare Jennings rifle with a separate cap and nipple, and the Volcanic, with a primer incorporated in the bullet. While Hunt may have thought of compressed air ignition, it wasn't claimed in his patent, and I doubt if it was ever used.

Both Hunt's ball and Jennings's rifle are classic cases of something valuable arising from ideas that didn't actually work. The rocket ball contained such a small powder charge that it was miserably ineffective. Some assailants could be deterred by the notion of needing anything at all surgically treated to avoid pre-antibiotics infection, and others couldn't. But it sealed the bore extremely well, and the powderless base-cavity bullet was developed by Henri-Gustave Delvigne in the same year, and perfected by Claude-Etienne Minié.

Oliver Winchester, a shareholder, probably engineered the demise of the Volcanic company and got his toggle-joint design from the debris, along with the right to use future developments by Smith and Wesson, who were probably desperate to sell. That gave him the .22 short rimfire, which he and Tyler Henry simply doubled up in size for their rifles.

The rocket ball wasn't really a rocket, but the modern or nearly-modern Gyrojet pistol used a rocket projectile, with a guide rail rather than a barrel. Rocket propulsion did indeed keep the elongated projectile from tumbling, and its extremely brief burning was probably short enough to clear you of charges for transfixing an assailant with a burning incendiary projectile. But it was very inaccurate, and depended on acceleration after discharge. Defensive pistols may be used at a range of inches, at which distance the Gyrojet would administer little more than a sharp poke.

[Walter Laich]

wonder how hard it would be to stiffen the base so the primer wouldn't be pushed in rather than ignited when the firing pin hits it?

could see a bit of round dowel with a hole drilled glued in the base to support the primer; after all wood is nothing more than pre-paper. :D

I can see some fool like me trying this out. might start with a .38 Sp case cut down and using cardboard for the case walls to see what happens to them then graduate to less brass and more paper in development.

also thinking mouse-fart loads would be great to start with

[MostlyLeverGuns]

The metal case - brass, aluminum, steel functions as a high strength gasket to contain the pressure of modern propellants. It also provides an effective HEAT SINK, removing a great deal of heat from the weapon/firearm. For the military, the problem of cook-off(firing due to high chamber heat) seems to be the reason caseless or consumable cased ammunition has not been used in rapid fire weapons. There was/is a company making steel heads for cartridge brass that was supposed to prevent primer pocket expansion and allow greater pressures. Maybe a steel head case with a paper case would work, but pressure would need to be quite low. Blaclpowder arms do allow caseless shooting. Flintlocks don't even need percussion caps. They can still be effective and they are caseless.

[Mk42gunner]

Now Artillery is something I know about. I am an active duty artilleryman. Yes Black powder is used on some older propellants (155mm Charge 8 Red Bag). The 155MM (and old 8inch gun) primer is almost exactly like a .410 shotshell (I never mic'd one) and it says MK 14 on the headstamp. Powder bags are mostly gone now (shot them all up in Iraq). Currently the Army uses Modular Artillery Charges *(MACS) and it really cuts down on 'cutting charges' and all the powder waste with the old Bag charges. The MACS charges look like Toilet paper rolls...And each charge is essentially on big fat 3 pound powder grain (not really, but you can imagine it that way). But I digress...

...
Tim

The Mk 14 sounds like Navy nomenclature to me, if so I bet the primer you remember is the size of a .45-70. I never popped any of the percussion ones; but I can't count the number of electrically fired ones I popped doing prefires on a 5"/54.


wonder how hard it would be to stiffen the base so the primer wouldn't be pushed in rather than ignited when the firing pin hits it?
...

Sounds a lot like the paper cartridges used in the needle guns like the French Chaasepot.

In my opinion the big problem would be the obdurating disk to seal the rear of the chamber. Of course that doesn't go well with a reusable case like the OP was wanting.

Robert

[tcochr]

could see a bit of round dowel with a hole drilled glued in the base to support the primer; after all wood is nothing more than pre-paper. :D ...also thinking mouse-fart loads would be great to start with.

Exactly!! A wood reinforced primer vent, It could even be epoxied into the base! Only the primer needs to be a friction fit. Excellent idea! You get the credit.

Anything but a low charge gets me nervous NMT 2.2-2.3 Gr unique or 15gr BP (with filler on top) should be safe enough (famous last words). I have a drawing, but am having trouble loading it to my image directory.

As far a sealing the bullet to the case...This is making my head spin. But I think a piece of glued paper wrapped around the bullet base and cartridge lip may work ok. If I use paraffin, It acts like a lube too. Soft lead only. This is an experiment.

Tim

[tcochr]

The Mk 14 sounds like Navy nomenclature to me, if so I bet the primer you remember is the size of a .45-70. I never popped any of the percussion ones; but I can't count the number of electrically fired ones I popped doing prefires on a 5"/54.

My SGM tells me I am wrong, and my memory is failing...The 155MM primer is called a M2A4 primer, not Mk14.
I listen to my NCOs, because I am usually wrong.

Tim

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The metal case - brass, aluminum, steel functions as a high strength gasket to contain the pressure of modern propellants. It also provides an effective HEAT SINK, removing a great deal of heat from the weapon/firearm. For the military, the problem of cook-off(firing due to high chamber heat) seems to be the reason caseless or consumable cased ammunition has not been used in rapid fire weapons. There was/is a company making steel heads for cartridge brass that was supposed to prevent primer pocket expansion and allow greater pressures. Maybe a steel head case with a paper case would work, but pressure would need to be quite low. Blaclpowder arms do allow caseless shooting. Flintlocks don't even need percussion caps. They can still be effective and they are caseless.

Yes, removing some of the combustion heat in small brass bucketfuls is very important for fully-automatic weapons, and perhaps even some semi-automatic, but scarcely at all in revolvers or one-shot-per-barrel shotguns and rifles. The Steelhead cases of (I think) the 1980s were interesting, with some potential for very high pressures or for renewal of rare case bodies. But they robbed you of one of the most important indications of unwise pressures, expansion of the solid part of the case head. For load development to get plenty of power in a weak rifle they would be positively (or should that be negatively?) dangerous.

A steel head and paper body has been done. It is a shotgun cartridge, with exactly the limit on pressure you suggest. It has been used for some rifle and pistol cartridges, such as the very large howdah pistols (although these were simply large defensive pistols which always outnumbered howdahs, and the name is now applied to some quite inappropriate firearms, such as Belgian pistols for the South American trade.)

The other limitation was in central location and alignment of the bullet. That doesn't matter too much in a smoothbore ball gun, but will produce angular deflection, mathematically calculable, in anything rifled.

[EDG]

Cheaper is why we do almost all of the things we do now.
There are millions of other alternatives that you can try and all of them that actually work will probably NOT be cheaper.

Firing a centerfire cartridge with smokeless generates pressures from a low of about 24,000 PSI to a max in the range of 65,000 PSI
If your case/gun is to be successful it has to withstand this pressure regardless of what it costs. Your case could be turned from solid platinum or it could be made cheaper from paper.
Most likely your platinum case will work fine. The only problem is expense.
You might get your paper case to work once but you might have to replace it over and over meaning it is a total loss each time it is fired. You gun might be a total loss too.
The platinum case would be recyclable no doubt meaning the metal could be salvaged and remelted to make more cases.
There are major fields of study on engineering materials and semester long courses on the selection of engineering materials.
I have an older issue of this book and you would be amazed at the level of sophistication that exists on this area of engineering. If you live near a university that offers a major in mechanical engineering you can probably find a used copy of this book cheap.
There are techniques that permit you to make informed decisions for selection of engineering materials. Unless you have a significant new material, new manufacturing process or new product design there is a good chance that most ideas have already been explored and even tested. We just don't have access to the previous work done.

Engineering Materials 1, Fourth Edition: An Introduction to Properties, Applications and Design 4th Edition

by D R H Jones (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=D+R+H+Jones&search-alias=books&field-author=D+R+H+Jones&sort=relevancerank) (Author), Michael F. Ashby (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&text=Michael+F.+Ashby&search-alias=books&field-author=Michael+F.+Ashby&sort=relevancerank) (Author)

One of the criteria for successful engineering tests is survival of the experimenter.
If you cannot design a reasonable way to test your creation it will most likely fail.
That is one of the things that is so impressive about the Wright Bros. They taught themselves and the whole world how to fly and survived it too.





the whole 'someone else's cases are cheaper makes the most sense' argument is not why I got into this hobby. But is is cheaper in the sense of making your own case, without owning a ammunition factory. I'd try this because I can. I just hope there aren't any medical bills.

[tcochr]

Sound Advice Above... But

"Quand je doute, J'Attaque!~ Toujours Attaque!"

I'll let you know how it works in a few weeks. Prototype cartridge is done. Inside diameter is really small, Like less than 1/4 inch. It looks a lot like a rimmed Chassespot cartridge. No primers, bullets or powder here downrange, but I'll be home soon enough.

So it is not new, It probably wont be as safe as a metal cartridge. I may rethink this.

Tim

[NavyVet1959]

Sound Advice Above... But

"Quand je doute, J'Attaque!~ Toujours Attaque!"

I'll let you know how it works in a few weeks. Prototype cartridge is done. Inside diameter is really small, Like less than 1/4 inch. It looks a lot like a rimmed Chassespot cartridge. No primers, bullets or powder here downrange, but I'll be home soon enough.

So it is not new, It probably wont be as safe as a metal cartridge. I may rethink this.


The brass acts as a seal to the chamber. Here's an example of what can happen when the seal fails:

http://images.spambob.net/navy-vet-1959/ria-10mm-ruptured-brass.jpg

In this instance, it was a case of having forgotten that I had changed the powder in one of my powder measures after having been away from it for a couple of weeks. Although the gun (RIA M1911 10mm) and mag disassembled themselves in my hand, everything went back together without a problem. According to Quickload, 167K psi was generated.

[runfiverun]

you'll want to wax your paper and repair the wax before each use.

spend some time looking at how federal makes their paper shot shells you'll be copying them anyway.
I'd use a brass head and insert the paper case then use the primer pocket to fold inward and hold the two together.

to load I would use a slow enough powder to fill the case and insert the boolit on top till it was touching [black powder anyone] then roll crimp the case down on the boolits shoulder.
in effect making a small caliber shot shell slug load.

[Wayne Smith]

I remember reading I think in Hatcher's Notebook on the importance of that thin brass case. I believe they machined away the breach of a couple of Springfields (30-06) and continued to fire them safely until the steel breach was something like five thousands thick - about the thickness of two pieces of typing paper. That's when it let go. That thin brass has a lot to do in the chamber.