Recommend a .308 mold

[Silverboolit]

Hi.. I am shooting a Howa .308W and using an Accurate 175 gr mold. It throws beautiful boolits, however, I have a problem. I am running out of lube about 8" in from the throat. I went to clean the barrel, and it is rough and leaded about that far in from the chamber with no lube ring at the muzzle. I am assuming that is the problem with poor accuracy that gets worse the more that I shoot the rifle. I am using 2500 for lube.
The Accurate design has only 1 lube groove and is a bore rider design. Anyone have a similar experience, or a go to mold? The Howa has 1/10 rifling and I assume that a heavier boolit would work better than a lighter one.

[Butchman205]

Ever considered powder coating the boolits?
I've had good luck with them running up to @2300-2400 fps.
Since I'm running them fairly slow, I like the big heavies as well. My fav is a 198gr from an NOE mould. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160819/3be84b4d3d82bc6d0d756cd9f6236d9c.jpg

-Butchman

[HangFireW8]

You could try tumble lubing in LLA in addition to the groove lube. Also try pre-lubing the bore after cleaning. If those don't work, you need another mold.

[OptimusPanda]

Can I ask what lube you're using? I was having all kinds of trouble with .357 and 30-06 until I changed from the "barry darr lube" to "satan's lube".

[dubber123]

It very likely is a rough bore. With a quality lube it takes a lot less to make the trip up the bore than is often believed. By all means, try all other avenues, but don't discount the benefits of firelapping.

[Silverboolit]

I do PC all of my pistol bollits with great success, just haven't tried it on the 308, yet. I DID try it once, and found that they are hard to do without falling over. Maybe have to try again.

I will lap the bore, although it looks very good.

Thanks for all of the replys. It gives me somewhere to start.

[Outpost75]

No discussion here on bullet diameter, alloy or load. If bullet is undersized, and does not fit throat, it will lead. If load is too heavy for alloy strength it will lead. K.I.S.S. principle.

You mentioned 2500 lube, not familiar with it. Maybe somebody else can help.

[RKJ]

You might try some of Ben's Liquid Lube (BLL) if you don't want to PC. It's very easy to make. If you'll check the stickies you'll find the recipe. Just Johnson's Liquid wax (the petroleum based wax) and Alox. It does a dandy job.

[Ben]

Hi.. I am shooting a Howa .308W and using an Accurate 175 gr mold. It throws beautiful boolits, however, I have a problem. I am running out of lube about 8" in from the throat. I went to clean the barrel, and it is rough and leaded about that far in from the chamber with no lube ring at the muzzle. I am assuming that is the problem with poor accuracy that gets worse the more that I shoot the rifle. I am using 2500 for lube.
The Accurate design has only 1 lube groove and is a bore rider design. Anyone have a similar experience, or a go to mold? The Howa has 1/10 rifling and I assume that a heavier boolit would work better than a lighter one.

So much of this " puzzle " is left out.

What is the bullet dia.
Exactly which bullet are you shooting.
What load are you using.
Gas check or plain base.
What alloy.

So much left out.
Not much of a chance of answers without more information.


Ben

[Outpost75]

Thank you Ben! No gold star for the pontificators who blather when there in insuffcient data to ogentltly address the OP.

[Silverboolit]

Bullet dia...310, Al gas check, accurate 175 gr FP, 13 gr red dot, 30 gr h335, 16gr 2400, 15bnh hardness, bore slugs at .300, groove is .308, LC brass, win LR primers, light crimp. Sorry for leaving these details out.

[Ben]

Have you ever shot .311 cast bullets in your rifle ?

Have you ever shot a lube other than 2500 ?

Have you ever shot a cast bullet style other than the one that you describe ?

How do you flare your case mouths ?

Are you certain that your bore is copper free and totally clean of lead. When you put a tight patch in the bore , what do you feel as it travels down the barrel ?

[Outpost75]

Groove diameter does not determine cast bullet sizing diameter. Throat or ball seat diameter does. Sized diameter of. 310-.311 is correct for most .308 and .30-'06 rifles. A very snug, new target barrel might need .309" but this is highly unusual. A worn military barrel which has been shot alot and shows throat erosion will need .312-.313"

[Silverboolit]

Have you ever shot .311 cast bullets in your rifle ? no, but could try

Have you ever shot a lube other than 2500 ? Yes, carnuba red

Have you ever shot a cast bullet style other than the one that you describe ? yes, LEE 180 gr.

How do you flare your case mouths ? M die

Are you certain that your bore is copper free and totally clean of lead. When you put a tight patch in the bore , what do you feel as it travels down the barrel ? clean until about 1/2 way up the barrel. Never had a jacketed bullet down the pipe

[Outpost75]

My best educated guess is that your leading is being caused by an undersized, and probably too-hard bullet which is unable to upset and seal the throat upon discharge. Powder gases are leaking past the bullet at high pressure and lancing lead off the surface of the bullet and depositing it onto the bore surface during initial acceleration. The leading you described fits this condition exactly.

Try assembling a dummy cartridge with an as-cast, unsized bullet. Mark the case neck and forepart of the bullet with a black felt tip marker, then see if this will chamber and extract freely without resistance. Any tight fitting and rubbing of the case neck means that the bullet must be sized a little to maintain safe release clearance. Light engraving of the bullet which does not result in shoving the bullet back into the case, or debulleting and leaving the bullet stuck in the throat when a round is extracted does no harm.

If unsized bullets chamber and extract freely from your rifle, try casting some of soft alloy, no harder than wheelweights, but 50-50 wheelweights and plumber's lead is fine, then just smear some soft lube on with your fingers or tumble the bullets all over with a light coat of Lee Liquid Alox, not enough to fill the grooves, but just enough to turn the bullets a light brassy color all over. Then load with 6-7 grains of any fast burning pistol or shotgun powder you have handy, Bullseye, TiteGroup, 231, Green Dot, Red Dot, Unique, Universal, all work. Below 1300 fps no GC is needed. Very cheap and fun to shoot.

A .308 gallery load uses about 1 to 1-1/2 grains less than an '06, as shown in the photos below. No filler is needed in these gallery loads with fast-burning powders.

They should shoot well and not lead. Yes, they will be quiet and subsonic.

174803174805174807

[Butchman205]

Have you ever shot .311 cast bullets in your rifle ? no, but could try

Have you ever shot a lube other than 2500 ? Yes, carnuba red

Have you ever shot a cast bullet style other than the one that you describe ? yes, LEE 180 gr.

How do you flare your case mouths ? M die

Are you certain that your bore is copper free and totally clean of lead. When you put a tight patch in the bore , what do you feel as it travels down the barrel ? clean until about 1/2 way up the barrel. Never had a jacketed bullet down the pipe

Hey Silver,

Do you mind if I ask how you are sizing and lubing the boolits? I'm not a self proclaimed pontiff or an old fart that enjoys being rude..just trying to help you out, and courteous is in my nature.

I would urge you to get that barrel smooth all the way down. Cleaning between every shot, until it's smooth throughout.

Also, I've got a couple different size moulds if you would like to try a few. That way you get in the ballpark of where your heading, without having to buy a bunch of moulds.


-Butchman

[popper]

31-175D? The nose will probably give you a problem PCd. The 31-165B has a better nose for PC. 2500 is supposed to be a good lube, I've never used it. Might try a slower powder like 4895 and harder alloy (WD?) need like >20 BHN. Basically stripping the boolit and lube is useless.

[Silverboolit]

I think that I solved the problem. Mic'ing the nose rider portion of the boolit, I have measured .304 on the larger size to .294 on the smaller. I believe that the nose of the bullet is 'tipping' in the bore and causing accuracy problems. Does this make sense? The boolit has a short length that is actually sized in relation to the entire length.

I will sort these by nose size and try a few with the larger noses and see if the problem is with the nose not being large enough.

[Silverboolit]

The mold number is 31-175R.

[Butchman205]

I think that I solved the problem. Mic'ing the nose rider portion of the boolit, I have measured .304 on the larger size to .294 on the smaller. I believe that the nose of the bullet is 'tipping' in the bore and causing accuracy problems. Does this make sense? The boolit has a short length that is actually sized in relation to the entire length.

I will sort these by nose size and try a few with the larger noses and see if the problem is with the nose not being large enough.

Sounds like you've found it man.
An old engineer friend of mine (and annoying as cr*p) was very fond of stopping everything immediately anytime there was ANY problems...and measuring/mixing everything. It ALWAYS took a while to get things running again, but he ALWAYS found the exact problem.

Therefore...I came up with a new Butchrule:
"If we aren't measuring, we're guessing. And if we guessing, sooner or later we're gonna guess wrong.-The Butchman"




-Butchman

[popper]

You might get nose slump with the smaller that could affect accuracy but not leading. You think you have a light load but your hammering the alloy in the throat. Your 2400 load is still pretty hot. Use a slower powder! PC might help with the weaker alloy. Even PCd a 185gr GC with COWW WD @ 2.2K fps started to lead, using LEverE , a slow powder.

[HangFireW8]

Groove diameter does not determine cast bullet sizing diameter. Throat or ball seat diameter does. Sized diameter of. 310-.311 is correct for most .308 and .30-'06 rifles. A very snug, new target barrel might need .309" but this is highly unusual. A worn military barrel which has been shot alot and shows throat erosion will need .312-.313"

These are not hard and fast rules, as I have broken them in '06 with success. If trying to push softer alloys fast, it is good advice.

[Ben]

I think that I solved the problem. Mic'ing the nose rider portion of the boolit, I have measured .304 on the larger size to .294 on the smaller. I believe that the nose of the bullet is 'tipping' in the bore and causing accuracy problems. Does this make sense? The boolit has a short length that is actually sized in relation to the entire length.

I will sort these by nose size and try a few with the larger noses and see if the problem is with the nose not being large enough.

Hopefully your measurements are accurate, but a mold from Tom Ellis at Accurate Molds with a nose that is .010 out of round is hard for me to believe.

Heck, Lee makes a better mold than that.

I believe Tom would want this one back if this mold is truly casting a bullet with a nose dia. that is .010" out of round.

Ben

[Ben]

You say :

I will sort these by nose size and try a few with the larger noses.

I'm not certain that I'm clear on what is going on here ? ?

You say :

I have measured .304 on the larger size to .294 on the smaller.

Are you saying that some of your nose diameters are large and some are small ? Or are you saying the nose is oval and out of round ?


I'm sorry, but I'm confused ? ?

[Silverboolit]

The noses ( bore riding part) are round, not oval. When measured, they vary in diameter. Some are tight in the muzzle while others are loose, as in they 'wiggle' quite a bit. Tom does excellent work and does not reflect in any way how the mold works.

[Ben]

Something is going on here................ ? ? ?

If the mold is closing properly each time, you should not be seeing more than .0002 - .0003 variation in any 10 bullets that you pick up at random when they are measured for nose diameter.

You say :

When measured, they vary in diameter.

If I understand you, some of your nose diameters are .304" while some are as small as .294 " in diameter? ?

Hold a good set of dial calipers up and set them on .010". That is A LOT of variation in nose diameters of cast bullets that all came from the same bullet mold.


From my end here, I cannot figure out what is happening ?

[Ben]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted byOutpost75 - Today 08:51 PM



I'm not the guy measuring bullets, but bullets having parallel bore riding surface MUST be large enough to be engaged by the rifling. Test a bullet by poking it nose first into the muzzle. If the nose enters easily up to the first driving band without resistance so as not to be engraved by the rifling you will never get accuracy from an unsupported nose, you may as well melt them down.

If the bullets enter with light resistance and engrave, but can be forced in and pulled out by hand pressure only, showing visible marking, this is ideal. For most .30 cal. rifles you want a bore riding forepart on a parallel-nosed bullet to be 0.001 larger than the bore diameter measured at the tops of the lands.

But where you really want to fit the bullet is the THROAT, that being the unrifled portion of the chamber ahead of the case mouth before the rifling starts. This is normally a TAPER and you want the nose tapered to fit. You don't want two stacked cylinders, one being groove diameter and the other too loose too be engraved by the rifling, as this bullet will not be supported during initial shot-start and you cannot get accuracy, it is a physical impossibility. Ideally you want the nose and forepart of the bullet to be as large as will chamber and extract freely without jamming into then rifling, forcing the bullet deeper into the case, or debulleting a loaded round upon extraction.

Tapered bullet light engraved upon chambering is fine.

[Outpost75]

A rifle barrel and throat is not two concentric cylinders, it is a taper.

You want the bullet to fit the tapered throat, the unrifled portion of the chamber ahead of the case mouth before the rifling starts. This will be a conical section, not a cylinder. Two-diameter bullets having a cylindrical shank of approximately groove diameter, and a parallel sided "bore riding forepart" which is not large enough to be actually engraved by then rifling, will slump in the bore upon initial shot-start and cannot deliver anything resembling normal accuracy.

Take your bullets and try to poke one nose-first into the muzzle. If it enters easily all the way to the front driving band melt them down for fishing sinkers and save yourself frustration. If they enter with some resistance, but can be pushed in with hand pressure only, and can be withdrawn from the muzzle and show engraving by the tops of the lands, NOW we are getting somewhere.

But two-diameter, stacked cylinder bullets cannot fit a tapered throat. Physically impossible. Throat diameter driving bands and parallel nose about 0.001" over BORE diameter (not groove) will work.

Ideally you want a mold with a tapered nose of angle which is a close match to the forcing cone of the chamber. Chambered and extracted rounds should look like this:

174869

[Ben]

My friend Jason will fire 100 rounds or more of this load.
When he has fired 100 rds., he will push a single dry patch through the bore , hold it to the light and look through the bore and it shines like a mirror.

____________________________

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/IMAG0678.jpg

[Ben]

Outpost :

Everything you've said is true.

But what are your views on his bullets having nose diameter variations of .010 "

[Outpost75]

Outpost :

Everything you've said is true.

But what are your views on his bullets having nose diameter variations of .010 "

Mold is scrap metal.

[Silverboolit]

Gentlemen: Thank you for your input to this problem. I have taken all suggestions to heart and will do the following, one at a time, and figure out where I end up.
First, and easiest, is to PC some of the boolits cast this morning. This should support the nose a little better.
Second, I will use some slower powder that I have on hand.
Third, a new mold has been ordered that has a better supported nose and is heavier.
Fourth, harder alloy can be used, and will be, but for now, I need to change small things first to find the problem.

As far as the nose diameters go, It is possible that some of the boolits cast earlier this year may be out of different alloys. The ones cast this morning, using one alloy only, also show the diameter differences.

I will keep posting on results after testing has started. Thanks for all of your input as it is greatly appreciated!!!

[Ben]

Good luck.