BP substitute in 50-70 gvt question

[acder]

I am going to start loading 50-70 gvt for my NY militia remington rolling block carbine and rifle. I want to use a BP substitute and keep the smoke down as I want to shoot this cartridge in my winter league and be polite to the other shooters by not obscuring their vision with clouds of white smoke. What substitutes are recommended for this cartridge, and which create the least smoke? Any other tips in loading this cartridge are much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Black Prince]

ALL BP replica powder substitutes are going to cause lots of smoke. They wouldn't be BP replicas if they didn't since one of the qualities of BP is the amount of smoke it produces. The only way you are going to accomplish your stated goal is to use reduced loads of smokeless powder.

There may be some differences in the amount of smoke generated by one brand of replica (substitute) powder over another but if there is, you aren't going to be able to tell because it will be so minor as to not be noticable. There isn't one of them that will not cause clouds of smoke when you shoot it because if it did, why bother? Why not just shoot smokeless to begin with?

I have NEVER understood the replica BP powder business anyway. None of them clean any easier than real BP. None of them produce better accuracy than real BP. I guess I'm left wondering WHERE'S THE BEEF?

I wish you all the the best in your quest, but sometimes there are no third options and I think this is one of those times.

[Boz330]

The beef so to speak is you can't get BP just anywhere anymore. I'm lucky since I'm close to NMLRA and Deer Creek Products and they both carry Real BP. But anywhere else it can be a pain in the you know where.
Best thing is smokeless in your case. The Lyman manual has several loads that will get you where you want to go.
On second thought maybe you should sell it to me so you don't have to be put out loading for it. I promise I can give it a good loving home and feed it everything it needs to live out my final years.:bigsmyl2:

Bob

[Don McDowell]

Forget about the sub crap. Most of it smokes just as much or more than real bp, some of it (pyrodex) is just as corrosive or more so than black, and the rest of it will attack your brass , so there's going to be no short cuts in cleaning.
Most of the subs develop higher pressure than real black, so that's another consideration to take into account with your old bp rifle.
If bp isn't available local, Grafs will ship you a single pound or a case, just depending on how much you want. Powder Inc will ship in 5lb lots, both ship anywhere in the US.

[acder]

Thanks to everyone for your help. I was looking to go BP substitute because of pressure concerns. If I can indeed shoot reduced smokeless loads in the rolling blocks I suppose I need a case filler of some kind to keep the powder orientated in that big case correctly-any advise in that area?

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I don't use a filler in my smokeless loads for my NYS Militia Rifle. Unique isn't very position sensitive, I use 13gr. behind both my 334gr. 515139, and 422gr. 515141. I haven't tried my new RCBS 50-515 mold yet, will probably cut back a bit. These RB actions are much stronger than the Trapdoors, and can take hotter loads. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook shows 11.3-15.5grs Unique, for the 334gr., and 11.0-13.8gr. for the 422gr. bullet., so my loads are mild. How about some photos?
Morgan

[Don McDowell]

acder if you just can't help yourself and truly feel the need to defile those fine ol rifles with smokeless powder, please use proper cast bullet rifle powders. AA 5744 is a pretty good place to start,its specifically made for using in these big bp cartridges and usually doesn't need any fillers. Also picking up a good manual like Lyman's 48th I think has some smokeless data for the 50-70. Also writing to hogdons , Alliant, Accurate, etc, and asking for 50-70 data if they have it is advisable.

[Boz330]

That info is probably available on line as well. As Don pointed out the Lyman has some good info as well.

Bob

[Don McDowell]

One more thing , you might want to drop Starline a note and ask them about the suitability of using nitro powder in their 50-70 brass. I have quite a bit of the stuff around that I've formed to another cartridge, and its pretty thin and fragile, I get plenty of case splits with black, and I'm not real sure I'ld be comfortable loading nitro powder of any sort in it.

[dubber123]

One more thing , you might want to drop Starline a note and ask them about the suitability of using nitro powder in their 50-70 brass. I have quite a bit of the stuff around that I've formed to another cartridge, and its pretty thin and fragile, I get plenty of case splits with black, and I'm not real sure I'ld be comfortable loading nitro powder of any sort in it.

I certainly can't speak for all the lots of Starline 50-70, but the one small lot of it I have has been loaded at least 15 times with nothing but smokeless, and I have just gotten my first neck split.

I do not own a suitable trimmer, or I'm sure I could have avoided the first split with a light trim. I don't over bell, or crimp much at all, which I am sure lengthens case life.

[Don McDowell]

dubber this stuff I'm using only gets loaded with black, but does get necked down so case neck splits aren't a huge surprise at all.
I have some cases that have went a dozen or more firings and are doing fine as fine can be, yet other cases might only make 1 or 2 and there'll be a longitudinal split somewhere between the shoulder and the web, no rhyme nor reason, no set rules at all.
Of course loading straight 50-70 and only using black a persons grandkids might die of old age before one of the cases gives up the ghost.
My only thought was that checking with starline about the suitability of using those cases with smokeless, would be a good thing to do.
I did look in the Lyman 48 and yup they have a small amount of 5070 data using a 485 gr bullet, with the bold lettered warning that it should not be used in old balloon head cases, and that it should only be used in guns of modern manufacture intended for smokeless powder and not to be used in older guns manufactured for black powder.

[acder]

Thanks again for your help. My cases are Dixie and some old CCC (Canadian cartridge Co.?). Not sure if the CCC ones are balloon head or not so I might avoid using those.

I'm lucky enough to have both a NYS militia carbine and full length musket courtesy of an uncle who appreciated and cared for them for many years before passing them on. I really want to shoot them at least occasionally and your advice will help me to do so. My copy of Metallic Cartridge reloading, 3rd Edition lists a load of 45.9 grains of A2495BR behind a 425 grain boolit with 1272 fps and less then 9,500 psi pressure. this seems like a pretty safe load, pressure wise- any thoughts?

[Don McDowell]

Bring us some pictures of them iddybiddy tiny groups you get those ol darlins to shooting for you.:-D

[Razor]

Bring us a picture of the rifle too...:-D

Razor
:castmine:

[405]

Like others have said, I'd sure lean towards either 4759 or 5744. The RBs are plenty strong and those powders are good for BP substitute applications. Keep the loads near "starter" levels and have a blast. The last RB I developed a smokeless load for was a contract Argentine 43 Spanish. PB soft cast bullet (about 20:1) sized to groove diameter over light load of 5744.... presto!! Accurate, clean, mild.
ps- post photos!!

[218bee]

Ditto on AA5744 if you MUST go smokeless. I would probably not use the CCC cases, I wouldn't think they are "balloon head" but they are old

[405]

I may be all wet but I think CCC was the Connecticut Cartridge Co. from the 50s-70s (yes that's 1950s-1970s, is that old?) :) I've seen their stuff loaded in several obsolete calibers. I'd guess they were supplying the re-enactors and the relatively few BPCR shooters then that had old guns and were needing brass to re-load. Balloon head??? I'd check to make sure but wouldn't think so.... but ya never know. Dixie brass???? dunno about that stuff either

[acder]

Not a great picture, but heres the carbine.

[acder]

Here's the musket on top. The rifle under it is a Ballard .46 rimfire "kentucky" military rifle.

[Don McDowell]

Those do look nice.
Looking forwards to hearing how they shoot for you.