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View Full Version : 4500 lubesizer question/frustration



selmerfan
05-28-2008, 10:55 PM
Ok, I'm set up to go with my lube sizer, a Lyman 4500. The only complaint I have is this. When I apply pressure to the lube I end up with some leaking onto the bottom of the gas check. I tried keeping down pressure on the handle while lubing and that doesn't seem to help. It's filling the lube grooves well, but it makes a bit of a mess. I'm using Lyman SuperMoly lube, it's black and relatively soft and sticky. It the problem my technique, the equipment, or the lube? Any tips would be great. I also get some smearing on the sides of the boolit, but I can live with that.
Selmerfan

madcaster
05-28-2008, 10:58 PM
It may be that you are applying too much presure on the pressure screw or it may be the sizing die adjustment.I would think the first...

mtgrs737
05-28-2008, 11:34 PM
Like madcaster said you may be using too much pressure on the pressure screw or you may not have your press adjusted so that the boolit is being pushed far enough down in the die to get the lube holes in the die above the bottom of the boolit base. It also sounds like the boolit you are sizing may be smaller than the ID of the sizing die and lube is traveling down the side of the boolit and working it's way under the boolit. Is your 4500 equipted with a heating element? If so you may not need heat for the lube you are using as it may be too hot and thin and that is what is causing it to migrate to the bottom of the boolit base. If you are using heat try to lube with it at room temp. and see if it migrates to the boolit base, if you need heat you may need to build a reostat to control the temp of the unit so that it doesn't overheat the lube. Check the depth of the die setting first, then the pressure applied. It is probably not just one thing. You will find the answer. Good luck!

HeavyMetal
05-29-2008, 01:27 AM
If you don't have a heater I'll agree with madcaster your applying to much pressure.

Here's a suggestion: back off the pressure three full turns. Then, using justindex finger and thumb, turn the pressure screw in until you feel "slight" resistance. Then turn a 1/4 turn more and run a boolit in and out of the sizer.

Examine it for to little lube, your hopeing to find 1/2 to 1/3 of your lube groove not filled. If this is the case your sensativity is right on and you can now take that pressure down about half a turn and this shoulds lube boolits without all the other trouble. Cotinue lubing with just about the same amount of resistance on the pressure screw for each boolit or every other boolit depending on how soft your lube is.

If your grooves are full your still a little heavy on the hand, but, if you don't have the mess then your on the right track just back off on the pressure next boolit.

Thes suggestions are based on the assumption that you have the boolit going to the correct depth in the sizing die in the first place!

Depending on the boolit it should, mostly, go all the way in the die before you push the pressure wrench to add lube! Do not add pressure and then push your boolit into the die!

Calamity Jake
05-29-2008, 08:29 AM
Also, if you are using Lyman size dies they have 4 rows of vertical drilled holes for the lube to pass thru, plug the bottom holes with #4 shot. Just remove the die and drive the shot in with a small hammer the remove the lead ring that is left.
Your going to get some amount of lube on the base no matter what! Think about it, that boolet base has to pass all them lube holes on its way into and out of the die, just wipe it's little butt and be done with it.

mto7464
05-29-2008, 08:39 AM
Would magnum #4 shot be to hard to plug the holes?

selmerfan
05-29-2008, 08:41 AM
I'm not using heat and the lube seems to be flowing fine, so I'm not heating it. If I read heavyMetal right, I do NOT want my lube grooves filled? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't I want the lube grooves filled, or should they only be 1/2 or 2/3 full?
Selmerfan

MT Gianni
05-29-2008, 08:50 AM
Ly super moly is a good lube though messy as you have noticed. It will function with the grooves only half full in most applications with out leading. What I think heavy metal is telling you is to set your lube pressure so you get a 1/2 full groove then add to it. Most of my bullets are lubed with a fulll groove as I feel they are better balanced. The weight of the lube can't be much but my confidence in knowing all bullets are starting out well is a plus. Filling the groove allows me to visually ensure all boolits are uniform. Gianni

selmerfan
05-29-2008, 09:29 AM
Gianni, you named my concern with the lube grooves to the letter. I also shoot a lot of jacketed bullets and the consistency is what matters. I can't see a boolit with one half of the lube grooves filled and the other half not shooting well. It has to throw it off balance, unless the centrifugal force evens the lube out upon firing, but I'd rather know for certain that it is balanced.
Selmerfan

DLCTEX
05-29-2008, 09:32 AM
When you have it filling only half the groove, you know you don't have too much pressure. Then you crank it down another 1/2 turn, which should give you full grooves. You want full grooves, but no more pressure than is necessary. DALE

selmerfan
05-29-2008, 09:37 AM
I've tried that procedure and I still get lube on the bases. And we're not just talking about a thin coat, that I can deal with. I'm talking about enough lube that I can push the center rod out and there is 1/8"-1/4" of lube stacked on top of it sometimes!
Selmerfan

HeavyMetal
05-29-2008, 09:47 AM
Next suggestion / question: What is the as cast diameter of your boolits? Then you need to check the actual diameter of your sizing die.

My thought is your boolit is to small a diameter for your specific die.

As for my other post: the 1/2 filled lube grooves were a starting point, from there you increased pressure very gently until the grooves were full.

You also need to face the fact that the issue your having is very common with the design of the sizer your using.

I struggled with the same issue every once in a while with an old Lyman 45 sizer. Thats why it was sold and I bought a Star.

selmerfan
05-29-2008, 11:00 AM
The as-cast diameter of the boolits is .266" and it's a .266" sizing die. I wondered if that was the problem as well, but I needed to lube them. They will be shot in my M700 .260 Remington. If this is a common problem with the 4500 sizer that's fine, I do a small enough volume that it's not a big problem, I just wanted to know if I was doing something wrong. Thanks for the tips, keep em comin'
Selmerfan

HeavyMetal
05-29-2008, 01:13 PM
I think you've found the problem! Most boolits have a large( across the parting line) side and a small side.

All it takes for lube, under any kind of pressure, to get past a boolit is the smallest of air space! The reason you get the pockets of lube on the bottom of the boolits is the lube is sliding down one side and pooling at the base!


Here's a "trick" idea I tried back in my 45 sizer days.

First pan lube your boolits, trying not to get the lube higher than the crimp groove on the boolit. ( that's if you have one) Next take the center pin out of your sizing die. Now take your lubed boolits and insert them nose first into the sizing die and push them through with a flat punch. Your not lubing here just trying to make sure they are completely round. You'll have to catch each one as it exits the bottom of the die but I think you'll find these shoot much better than they may have before.

This is again why I traded off the old 45 for a Star: nose sized boolits shoot better!

This is the "experiment" I ran to prove it to myself!

selmerfan
05-29-2008, 01:58 PM
Interesting idea heavyMetal, don't make me wanting a Star, I can't afford one right now! I've thought about getting the Lee sizer set up though...
Selmerfan

Echo
05-29-2008, 02:06 PM
Yo, Selmerman - Although not nearly as experienced as the foregoing, I am going to endorse the idea of plugging the bottom holes on your sizing die with shot. Do all 3 (4?) of the bottom holes and size a few bullets. Fix it? If not, plug the next rank up, and try again. I'll bet this solves the problem.

EasyEd
USAF Ret
NRA Patron

MT Gianni
05-29-2008, 03:01 PM
Selmer, Too much pressure will cause base lube to appear. Go back to just filling the grooves and see if it goes away. Gianni

carpetman
05-29-2008, 03:24 PM
Selmer---we are talking two pressures here. The pressure on the operating handle and the pressure on the lube feed(ratchet on the Lyman). The pressure on the lube feed is ever so slight. We are talking Brylcreem here--just a little dab will do you. You may not even need to operate the ratchet with every bullet. Might maintain pressure to get couple or so bullets in between just barely bumping it. Just a very small bump is all you need. Now on the operating handle when the bullet is in the sizer and you are giving the ratchet the slight bump---you want a firm pressure on the operating handle. Not handle bending/breaking brute force---but pretty firm pressure.

Tom Myers
05-29-2008, 04:01 PM
Selmerfan,

If you are getting that much buildup of lube between the bullet base and the ejector punch, you probably do not have the ejector punch adjusted high enough to seat firmly on the base of the bullet.

Try running the bottom adjustment screw up until the top lube groove does not fill and then back the ejector rod adjustment screw down in small increments until all the grooves fill.

Remember to keep downward pressure on the operating handle while you are applying pressure to the lube with the lube pressure adjustment screw. This will keep the base of the bullet pressed to the top of the ejector punch and should help keep the lube from being squeezed onto the base of the bullet.

Also, some nose punches are deep enough so that they bottom out on the sizing die and the bullet cannot then be pressed firmly down onto the the ejector punch.

You mentioned that you had "lube smears" on the side of the bullet. It is possible that the bullet is enough smaller that the sizing die that, when downware pressure from the operating handle is released, the bullet is not gripped by the sizing die and is being moved upward by the lube pressure, thus allowing lube to migrate between the bottom of the bullet and the top of the ejector punch.

Just keep playing around with your adjustments while visulalizing what is going on inside of the sizing die and you will eventually get it right. It sometimes helps to take the sizing die out of the press and then lay the bullet along side of the die so that you can then see just how far into the die that the bullet needs to be seated in order to fill all the grooves. then move the ejector punch adjustment screw until the bullet can be pressed no further into the die than is necessary to lube everything.

Hope this helps.

Tom Myers

garandsrus
05-29-2008, 04:35 PM
I was going to suggest what Tom wrote...

Make sure the ejector punch firmly "bottoms out" at the bottom of your lube stroke and in fact stops the lube stroke. If it does not, the lube pressure can keep pushing the punch lower, with the result that the lube gets thicker on the bottom of the boolit. If the ejector punch is correctly set, you shouldn't get more than just a "smear" of lube on the bottom of the boolit.

John

selmerfan
05-29-2008, 06:55 PM
Tom and garandsrus, I have just been messing around with that stop adjustment, I wasn't really certain what it was for. I'll be that's out of adjustment. I haven't got time to check it tonight, but I'll do it tomorrow, I bet that will solve my problems.
Selmerfan