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View Full Version : I think it is about time



Jumptrap
10-27-2005, 12:24 PM
That we, as a group, approach some major gun maker and request a cast bullet rifle be made.

I don't know the best guise to use in approaching them........they always...ALWAYS... consider the mass marketing appeal of anything they make.

I am not a fan of Savage, but something tells me.....a WAG....that they'd be more likely than the others to at least listen to us. Remington has their ass stuck in Magnumland and whatever will fit a 700 action...period. Ruger is a stick in the mud unless some outifut like Davidson's agrees to buy 5,000 pieces. Mossberg ventures into the rifle market everytime they need a good reason to declare bankruptcy and Marlin won't even make a 25-35 for us.

What we need is a new 30-30 bolt rifle...for starters. It offers mass appeal, is a fine cast bullet cartridge....actually about as good as it gets......and the gun, of course, can be used with factory fodder. Savage has past experience with 30-30 bolt rifles and so, the engineering should be old technology for them. The 340 rifle was an economy rig.....but the this new 200 or whatever they call it, is more or less it's replacement.....pricewise. Me thinks, in order to allay feeding problems, any maker would resort to a clip instead of modifying an existing Mauser type magazine......which is what Savage did in the 340. While a single shot bolt rifle would suit most paper punchers.....a maker would want a repeater...again, for mass appeal.

The only things we could hope for if they'd agree to make such a rifle, is a cast bullet friendly throat/leade angle and say a 1:12" twist. I'd be happy with that.

So, spill your guts and speak your mind. I feel that as a group here, we are gaining ground and if we appealed to Savage with commitments to buy, they MIGHT consider us.

StarMetal
10-27-2005, 12:26 PM
I think too that the manufacturer would have to make that cast rifle with cut rifling. Most the ones you mentioned use button rifling. Marlin does use some cut rifling.

Joe

grumble
10-27-2005, 12:36 PM
Man oh man, if someone would make a single shot falling block rifle with interchangable barrels and an exposed hammer at a reasonable price, I'd be in hog heaven. Savage could do it, but the "reasonable price" might be hard to meet.

Jumptrap
10-27-2005, 12:37 PM
I think too that the manufacturer would have to make that cast rifle with cut rifling. Most the ones you mentioned use button rifling. Marlin does use some cut rifling.

Joe

Joe, I'd be happy with whatever rifling they offered...as long as it isn't microgrooved. Nothing wrong with a buttoned barrel. But for some reason, I think Savage broaches a lot of their barrels.....which is a stepped cutter/button.

StarMetal
10-27-2005, 12:42 PM
I talked to Savage and they said they use button rifling. Hey, Marlin made that ballard cut rifling on their cowboy action rifle specifically for shooting cast. Shilen told me button rifling could be made deeper for cast bullets. Whatever, as long as it was made for cast bullets.

Joe

45 2.1
10-27-2005, 01:24 PM
The CBA tried this some years ago. They had Ruger quote them a 30-30 cast bullet rifle on the No.1. 200 rifles minimum! A new issue of the Rem 788 in 30-30 would be dandy also.

felix
10-27-2005, 01:43 PM
Nothing wrong with microgroove, provided it means 004 lands for 20s, 0045 for 30s, 005 for 40s, 0055 for 50's, etc. If they want to make 12 lands, OK, that would be great!

Or, they could add 002 to those figures above and give us rounded bottoms. That would make cleaning a breeze, such as one or two strokes before putting into the closet. ... felix

Scrounger
10-27-2005, 01:54 PM
The CBA tried this some years ago. They had Ruger quote them a 30-30 cast bullet rifle on the No.1. 200 rifles minimum! A new issue of the Rem 788 in 30-30 would be dandy also.

Nice but expensive. The most versatile rifles around are the Handi-Rifles and Contender Carbines. With these you can get custom barrels made up to your specs very reasonably. I'm not very knowledgible on the Handi-Rifles but on the Contender Carbine new factory barrels can be had for around $200. If you order a barrel from their Custom Shop, there is a greater selection in calibers, length, and barrel weight; these could run $250 to $300. Now if you really want a custom with a certain twist, certain throat, etc, you could order from Mike Bellem or some other highly respected manufacturers. I would guess these might set you back $300, maybe a little more. There are other advanteges for going this route: Ordering 12 or 50 or whatever would probably get us a nice discount. Caliber choice would be virtually unlimited. There are several large Contender barrel dealers who would probably be interested in joining us on group purchases. There are many Contender and Handi-Rifle forums on the web who would also be interested in joining in a group buy. I think a custom order of 200 barrels would be a real possibility. And lastly, NO participation whatsoever is needed with an FFL holder.

Jumptrap
10-27-2005, 03:41 PM
I reckon I dropped the ball.

I should have stated: I think it is about we approached a major maker and asked for a cast bullet BOLT ACTION rifle.

You can buy all the H&R Topper shotgun spinoffs you can haul in a container ship.

If you want High Walls and Lo-Walls and their pseudo types, they exist too.

BOLT ACTION...............BOLT ACTION.............BOLT ACTION....cast bullet rifle wanted in 30-30....or anything else built on the 30-30 case.

Oh, did I mention, BOLT ACTION?

grumble
10-27-2005, 03:53 PM
"...BOLT ACTION...............BOLT ACTION.............BOLT ACTION....cast bullet rifle wanted in 30-30....or anything else built on the 30-30 case..."

FALLING BLOCK.............FALLING BLOCK........................FALLING BLOCK...

<ggg>

Seriously, mostly we're just talking about a barrel, right? The Savage 110-series has interchangable barrels, so for cast boolit use it could be a "CB only" rifle with your choice of barrel. Same with the break actions. It would only be the falling block guns that would have to be designed as a gun, instead of just a barrel.

Junior1942
10-27-2005, 04:43 PM
Here's the one I want: http://www.savagearms.com/10fple1.htm

That heavy 20" barrel ought to be a cast bullet dream. All Savage would have to do is chamber in 30-30 instead of 308. And leave off the extra sling stud.

Oldfeller
10-27-2005, 05:06 PM
Not to confuse them excessively, but you might mention the next rifle run you planned to make in the Savage/Stevens model 200 would be the .358 Winchester.

Ask them to put out a standard model designation on the two guns so we can order them through our local Wal-Marts. They don't have to advertise, we will take care of that for them. Just put the Stevens 200 rifle number in their system and communicate it to Wal-mart.

They will likely get quite a few orders for the .358 Winchester ...... not just from us.

Oldfeller

Ed Barrett
10-27-2005, 06:26 PM
You are going to make me start saving my money again to buy one of these guns. I like the savage due to the ballel change setup. if you got a 30-30 a new barrel could make it into a 38-55 and several other sizes that share the 30-30 casehead. It just keeps sounding better and better.
There is a company that makes replacement barrels for savages complete with a barrel nut wrench ect. , could they be talked into making a cast friendly barrel to meet everyones needs?

Just some thoughts.

Blackwater
10-28-2005, 12:43 AM
I think Oldfeller has a decided point. The .35's would be better for deer with cast, IMO, and a .358 would be a real dandy choice in that caliber, and as he said, there'd be quite a few folks who'd fight over rifles so chambered.

However, with the popularity of the .30's and the selection of moulds available, it's hard to beat a .30, and in that realm the .30/30 would be my choice as well.

Jump, great idea!

Frank46
10-28-2005, 02:52 AM
Jumptrap, some years ago I wrote to ruger about the #1 in 45/70. Heavier barrel and somewhat longer 24". And also suggested that they make up some tropical rifles in 45/70. I received my origional letter back with basically the mass market thing written on it and stating that there would not be enough of a market for these specialized firearms. But what would it take to get savage to make a run of 30-30 sized bolt heads
or an after market supplier to do the same. I have a savage 110fp tactical that with new bbl and bolt head and used as a single shot would make a dandy 30-30. Or they could use their single shot bolt action with no changes except bolt head and 30-30 chambering. Frank

45 2.1
10-28-2005, 07:05 AM
A 35/30-30 would be what was ideal. Shame its a wildcat.

Bullshop
10-28-2005, 10:29 AM
Frank46
Someone at Ruger must have been listening because the #1 you requested they came out with a couple years ago as a commemoritive model.
BIC/BS

Jumptrap
10-28-2005, 10:56 AM
I am glad to see all you fellers making comments and adding meat to the pot...already have enough beans!

The 358 would be a dandy, no fly in that ointment.

I mentioned the 30-30 because of what most of us already know concerning that case.....ideal capacity, long neck, and brass is common as dirt. Getting an action with the proper bolt head and magazine is the problem......as always. I think the 375 winchester/38-55 is a super round and so were the defunct cartridges as the 307 and 356 Win.

Keep stirring the pot.

1Shirt
10-28-2005, 01:11 PM
45 2.1 has the right idea with a 35-30/30. There are enough .357 pistol boolit molds out there to keep a man testing loads for months, maybe a couple of years even.
1Shirt

felix
10-28-2005, 01:15 PM
Yep, lets put a 18 or 20 twist in that barrel especially for these 150-180 grainer boolits, instead of the more normal 16 twist which is more suited to the 180-225 boolits. ... felix

trooperdan
11-05-2005, 02:14 PM
Do you guys think this is a possibility? Has anyone contacted Savage? I really like the idea of being able to order it from any Wal-mart! That would be a great paln if we could get done. I like the idea of the .30-30 and the .358 as well. I'd likely have to have one of each. The switch barrel concept has a lot of merit also!

Frank46
11-07-2005, 06:04 AM
Jumptrap, Methinks savage would be the easiest manufacturer to get a bolt action 30-30 cast bullet rifle from. They could use their single shot action, have a 30wcf sized bolt face and 24" heavy bbl like on the 110fp tactical rifle. The throat could be .310x 1.5 degrees included. Note that I mentioned throat. My win 94 doesn't really have a throat the rifling is just "there" where a proper throat should be. My #1 in 45/70 is the same. But the question that begs to be answered is where if at all could one have made up is a 30wcf bolt sized head for the savage bolt?. Should it be not too hard to take a 308 sized head and open it up to 30-30?. Because basically thats the stumbling block. I have a winchester 54 waction sitting in my desk that was origionally made for the gool old 30-30. Made in 1928. Been wanting to get it barrelled back in the same caliber for years. Its been well over twenty years since I bought it. Guy had a bunch of these barrelled actions sitting in a fiberboard drum in his shop. Paid $75 bucks and had a gunsmith do a bishop stock. Griffen & Howe did the bolt like a model 70. So if the idea ever gets off the ground count me in. Frank

Jumptrap
11-07-2005, 11:04 AM
Jumptrap, Methinks savage would be the easiest manufacturer to get a bolt action 30-30 cast bullet rifle from. They could use their single shot action, have a 30wcf sized bolt face and 24" heavy bbl like on the 110fp tactical rifle. The throat could be .310x 1.5 degrees included. Note that I mentioned throat. My win 94 doesn't really have a throat the rifling is just "there" where a proper throat should be. My #1 in 45/70 is the same. But the question that begs to be answered is where if at all could one have made up is a 30wcf bolt sized head for the savage bolt?. Should it be not too hard to take a 308 sized head and open it up to 30-30?. Because basically thats the stumbling block. I have a winchester 54 waction sitting in my desk that was origionally made for the gool old 30-30. Made in 1928. Been wanting to get it barrelled back in the same caliber for years. Its been well over twenty years since I bought it. Guy had a bunch of these barrelled actions sitting in a fiberboard drum in his shop. Paid $75 bucks and had a gunsmith do a bishop stock. Griffen & Howe did the bolt like a model 70. So if the idea ever gets off the ground count me in. Frank

FRANK!

A Winchester 54 action? Oh man....how I'd love to have that! I was **** out of a 54 in '06 many years ago and I still haven't forgot it.

I think if any maker was to be convinced...it would be Savage. I also know that in today's Magnum addicted gun economy, the liklihood is nil, at best. I think the switch barrel concept has merit.......but using cartridges based on the 30-30. I'd love to have a .375 winchester bolt rifle...and a 25-35 as well. Might as well toss in the others too ( 7-30 and 32 spec.)..hehe!

Scrounger
11-07-2005, 11:40 AM
Jumptrap, Methinks savage would be the easiest manufacturer to get a bolt action 30-30 cast bullet rifle from. They could use their single shot action, have a 30wcf sized bolt face and 24" heavy bbl like on the 110fp tactical rifle. The throat could be .310x 1.5 degrees included. Note that I mentioned throat. My win 94 doesn't really have a throat the rifling is just "there" where a proper throat should be. My #1 in 45/70 is the same. But the question that begs to be answered is where if at all could one have made up is a 30wcf bolt sized head for the savage bolt?. Should it be not too hard to take a 308 sized head and open it up to 30-30?. Because basically thats the stumbling block. I have a winchester 54 waction sitting in my desk that was origionally made for the gool old 30-30. Made in 1928. Been wanting to get it barrelled back in the same caliber for years. Its been well over twenty years since I bought it. Guy had a bunch of these barrelled actions sitting in a fiberboard drum in his shop. Paid $75 bucks and had a gunsmith do a bishop stock. Griffen & Howe did the bolt like a model 70. So if the idea ever gets off the ground count me in. Frank

Have you noted that the .30-30 and the 6.5x55 have virtually the same diameter? An existing Savage bolt-head should be an easy modification. A '96 Swede action would work fine. Two of my friends have .30-30s on 98 Mauser actions, with Hart barrels, no less!!! They use them as single shots but it should be possible to get them to magazine feed...

StarMetal
11-07-2005, 11:43 AM
They may be ugly but any of the 303 British rifle should would too and one would think they would feed pretty good from the magazine concidering they are similar.

Joe

Scrounger
11-07-2005, 12:01 PM
They may be ugly but any of the 303 British rifle should would too and one would think they would feed pretty good from the magazine concidering they are similar.

Joe

Good point. The disturbing thought that comes to my mind (and maybe most of you are not so inflicted with 'this attitude;): is why chamber it for .30-30 when you could make it a .30-40? In my muddled mind, what makes the .30-30 great is that it fits well in the Win 94 and Marlin 336 rifles; in a totally different format with the capability of handling great calibers like the .308 and .30-06, I would have trouble limiting myself to the .30-30. The .30-06 can match it's ballistics with the proper combination of bullet, powder, and filler, and yet go on to far exceed it with other combinations. Sorry, that's my problem; if you want the .30-30, then I hope you get it the way you want it.

felix
11-07-2005, 12:47 PM
Ideally, for cast, you want to propell a boolit no faster than 2400 fps. Then select boolit weight commensurate with a twist of no more than 14 for 2400 max, 1600 min. Now, select the powder capacity needed for a MEDIUM speed rifle powder. Finally select a case design which would be commensurate with the most common actions, keeping in mind that brass can be reformed to meet the criteria. For example, it is hard to beat the 35-06 for 250-280 grainers. I personally find this caliber is too much fun for me to handle. A 35-30 would be my ideal when shooting 160 grainers. ... felix

StarMetal
11-07-2005, 01:33 PM
Art,

I call the 30-40 Krag the 30-30 magnum. You're right about it, it's a great cast bullet round.

Joe