British Smallbore Rifles.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Are these British smallbore rifles common in the USA. I managed to buy this left handed International Mk 2 complete with target sight which is a mirrored reverse of a RH one!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/BSAMk2B.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/BSAMk2B.jpg.html)

20 shots over a bench at 50m on an air pistol target!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/1807T4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/1807T4.jpg.html)

[Artful]

Not common in my experience - very cool and accurate rifle - congratulations

[UKShootist]

I have one, also a left hander. Superb rifles and make good bench rest shooters. I've a few others also.

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/

[robg]

Guy a t my club has the same lh model .has a scope mount on it, Australian made ,.amazingly accurate past 100 yards( shooting in a tunnel range) 8oz trigger .

[UKShootist]

Here's mine.

174509

And here's my favourite. A Greener made around 1920-1930. Bog on accurate, sweet as a nut.

174510

And a BSA Model 13 lightweight.

174511

[Wayne Smith]

I have a BSA MK III and a MKV - sights on the III and a external adjustment scope on the V. Both of mine right handed.

[Reg]

Not real common but there are a few of them out there, did see one on table in Colorado Springs on Saturday.
Used to use one in competition in a 50 foot indoor club until they disbanded a few years back. Incredibly accurate and will just drill one ragged hole off the bench at fifty yards all day long with about anything you would put through it.
Now and then you see or hear where one is converted to center fire and they work as well as any small Martini which is usually very good.
Nice rifles.

[dverna]

Shot one when I was on the university rifle team....45 years ago. What a great gun it was.

[Scharfschuetze]

I've always enjoyed the Lee Enfield training rifles in 22 LR. They are often very accurate. When I instructed marksmanship to Cub and Boy Scouts they really liked shooting them too. I have different length butt stocks for them so I can tailor them to the age of the shooters or to myself.

Here is a No 2 and a No 7:

[1Hawkeye]

The left handed models are few & far between and they get snapped up fast. But the right handed ones are a lot more common. If I decide to get another BSA Martini it will be a international. I already have a #8 and a 12/15 both with Parker Hale sights. I got them from a shop not far from me who imported them from a gun club in the UK. They still have some various model internationals left but they need wood because the club cut down the stocks. After shooting those BSA's all my other target .22's went bye bye. I'm getting groups like yours with the cheap ammo someday i might see what the do with match ammo. Congradulations on your find.

[jcwit]

I've seen BSA .22's used in the NRA National Small Bore Matches in the last few years.

National Matches held in Bristol, Indiana.

[Buckshot]

..............I too have a Martini Match rifle. If anyone could tell me what model number it is, I'd appreciate it :-)

http://www.fototime.com/0D9C2F993D188A9/standard.jpg

The barrel is 28" long and the muzzle OD is 0.745"

http://www.fototime.com/D6A6951083C897D/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/F17FA8B5ADF90FC/standard.jpg

The rifle came with a somewhat wide adjustable cloth or canvas sling with with longish 'hooks' on each end. There are no swivels but instead round balls with a hole through them on a threaded stud. There are 2 swivels on the rear of the forend, and one on a plate attached to the underside of the barrel about 2" ahead of the forend. None on the buttstock. At the rear of the forend is an inletted brass container (the knurled cap is visible) and this contained a bunch of blued steel front sight inserts. The hand stop on the forend will move about 6" farther forward. The rear sight is a Parker Hale #7, and the aperture front is also a P-H but marked 'FS 22'. At the rear of the forend you can see a couple of those sling attachments. I don't have a photo of the sling.

I bought this from Navy Arms in the 90's for $250 + shipping if my brain cells aren't lying. At the time they also had Martini Internationals for $400 if I'm not mistaken.

http://www.fototime.com/5C6112DA9EE1770/standard.jpg

The opposite side of the action is marked:

"Society of Miniature Rifle Clubs"
"15, Arundel St"
" London W.C.2"

I have not shot it in quite some time. WHen I first got it I took it to the range (I went to the range EVERY Tuesday then) to try it out with some of the various ammo I had. The range master cam by and asked what I was doing? I said I was trying out different ammo to see what this rifle liked. He said, "Heck, they don't even make half of that stuff anymore!" :-) My favorite ammo for ALL my 22's was Winchester Dyna-Points. It did quite well in all of them. One day at the range I was shooting it off the bench and one of the silhouette shooters set down a partial box of Eley TENEX on the bench and said, "Here, try these out". I fired 5 into the berm and then proceeded to put 5 into a scant .370" at 50 yards on paper. At that time the stuff was $10/50 rnds. But since I wasn't competing in 22RF matches but the accuracy was admittedly wonderous, I still stuck with the $9.85/500 round boxes of Dyna-Points :-)

BTW, if you have a chronograph, try this the next time you have your 22 rifle along with you. Fire five rounds over the chronograph. Record the data. Now fire 5 rounds, but lean over and simply blow a puff of air through the bore before loading and firing each of the next 5 rounds. Compare the data.

.................Buckshot

[1Hawkeye]

Buckshot, you have a 12/15 that someone put a international buttstock on.
Which is a clever idea. Are there any markings on the muzzle around the crown?
If so that means it's been lined no biggie some folks in the UK had it done to brand new rifles.
If you really want to have some fun see what the ol girl will do at a hundred yards.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, you have a 12/15 that someone put a international buttstock on.
Which is a clever idea. Are there any markings on the muzzle around the crown?
.

..............Thanks for the info on the model. There is nothing stamped on the crown.

.............Buckshot

[Ballistics in Scotland]

..............Thanks for the info on the model. There is nothing stamped on the crown.

.............Buckshot


I'd say it is an earlier BSA Martini of the Francotte's patent design, for which someone has copied the Martini-International stock. Probably it is a 12/15, though I don't remember at which stage they acquired thicker sides than the early ones, or the Australian Cadet centrefires.

Purely for the sort of rimfire target shooting for which they were designed, the Martini-International is hard to beat. All of them have an extremely good trigger pull, adjustable for creep, weight and overtravel. The MkII brought a trigger more easily adjustable with the action in place, which was actually an automatically cocked single set trigger. The MkIII was the first to have a fully floated forend, mounted on an aluminium hanger attached to the action. For most purposes I prefer a fully glass bedded forend, for a wide gap can let in debris, and a narrow one can make irregular contact due to sling tension, warping or water held by capillary action. But a wide gap is fine for this rifle in its intended, indoor or fair weather use.

The earlier Martinis would be my choice as a heavy or even light sporting rifle, or for any kind of conversion, or for fantasies of seeing off the Zulu hordes. The idea of the Martini-International action being weaker, or producing sideways barrel vibration with high pressure, is very likely pure moonshine - I don't know. But it would be difficult to insert a larger cartridge than .22 Hornet or thereabouts. It also has a spring-powered ejector which will kick the rimfire case clear, no matter how gently the lever is moved, which is well worth having - with the rimfire. But I don't believe they offered positive extraction by pressure of the lever, as the earlier Martini-shaped Martinis did. You might find the ejector spring isn't enough to break the adhesion of a centrefire case in the chamber, or ejection takes place before a wider rim than rimfire clears the top of the block.

http://rifleman.org.uk/BSA_Martini_International_Mks.I_&_%20II.html

[leebuilder]

BSAs are one of the finest 22s ever made. Got a bubba'ed 12/15 and a 13, both very accurate insanely accurate with the right ammo.
Be well

[ukrifleman]

Superbly accurate rifles.

This is my 1950 Mk.1 International with thumbhole stock, `Parker rifled` bore and PH25B sights.

ukrifleman.

[old turtle]

These Martini action rifles are excellent rifles. Wish i had one, but I do have 2 cadet rifles which I am lucky to have.

[Lightning22]

One of these is on my shopping list when my licence comes back from renewal.

[JMax]

There is a small gun shop near where I live that has 20 or so of these rifles. I need to stop by tomorrow and see what the prices look like.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I see someone on eBay UK regularly sells the brochure with sectional diagram, parts list and maintenance instructions which originally accompanied the MkII. I got one for £0.99, though they may go higher sometimes. Unfortunately my sole infraction on this board was for showing people an eBay auction - all very courteous, with an explanation that they knew I meant no harm (or, I suppose, profit). But it is easily findable.

I don't doubt there have been developments in target rimfires in the last fifty years which bring a very slight edge to a tiny minority of top-class target shots. The 12/15 and earlier, perhaps not, but they easily equal 99 of the rimfires sold new. I think I know one current .22 which is a classic case of advertising revenue bringing editorial mentions, editorial mentions bringing popularity, popularity bringing after-market mods and accessories, and mods and accessories bringing... pretty much what lucky amulets used to.

[saleen322]

I have two international MKIIs. This one was rebarreled by Eric Johnson, supposedly one of the last ones he did. It is a tack driver.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/saleen322/Martini/Martini1.jpg http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/saleen322/Targets/505279b2-7dca-48b8-ac58-f3a48446fdb3_zpsdc2b923c.jpg

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Local gunshow today I purchased a BSA 15 complete with all front and rear sights and the little thumbnail attachment with 5 interchangeable elements (needs a reblue) but at $AU200, I could not let it go to a unappreciative home!

[dromia]

Don't forget the small bore Vickers Martini actioned target rifles, as accurate as the contemporary BSAs

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Don't forget the small bore Vickers Martini actioned target rifles, as accurate as the contemporary BSAs

They can be, although the Martini[Jnternational isn't their contemporary. In fact in there there lurks just about the same action. But I believe the action takedown screw is also a stock attachment screw, and that seems like a source of inconsistent bedding.

[dromia]

The Vickers were only made during the inter war years, no one said they were contemporary with the Internationals.

They certainly seemed to hold their own in competitions of the time and were a match for the BSAs regardless of the "flaws" that some attribute to them. Another thing that was supposed to make them "less" than the BSAs was the receiver and barrel being one piece but as always in shooting there is the theory and then there are the results on the target.

I have dozen or so Vickers in my collection and they certainly give up nothing to the BSAs of the time when I shot them both competitively.

[knewmans]

They are certainly much more accurate than I am. My MkV International has the original factory test group of 0.56" at 100 yds.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Just the same, although people may be right in saying the .22LR has had more development work than any other cartridge, this shows how those who say it is the most accurate are mistaken. I don't think we would be happy with .59in. at 100 from a heavy centrefire target rifle of similar sophistication. Factory centrefire ammunition makers have improved a lot through being prodded on by the work of the private benchresters. But I don't think the best .22LR target ammunition has improved much since the 1960s.

[robg]

Shot one in our club a lh mk11 I think ,as a lefty it was a joy to shoot in our tunnel ,accurate to 150 yards ,didn't try at 200 .want one ,always loved the action.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I had a BSA small bore barreled by Eric Johnson for Al Freeland. It was one of Johnson's five star barrels It had Vaver sights front and back but it had a left hand stock and I don't shoot from that side. A friend of mine just had to have it so I let it go. He took the rifle, jumped into his truck and took off for Victorville where he sold the rifle for a nice profit to a fellow who right away sold it to someone else. I am sure he made a profit also. I do have a BSA INTL MATCH which I seldom shoot because it is so heavy.

[1066]

Just the same, although people may be right in saying the .22LR has had more development work than any other cartridge, this shows how those who say it is the most accurate are mistaken. I don't think we would be happy with .59in. at 100 from a heavy centrefire target rifle of similar sophistication. Factory centrefire ammunition makers have improved a lot through being prodded on by the work of the private benchresters. But I don't think the best .22LR target ammunition has improved much since the 1960s.

I quite agree there. The sole result of the last fifty years from the Eley R&D department seems to have been to clip 1/8th inch off the tip of the bullet. It might be fashionable but I can't see it has had any measurable effect on accuracy.

[UKShootist]

I quite agree there. The sole result of the last fifty years from the Eley R&D department seems to have been to clip 1/8th inch off the tip of the bullet. It might be fashionable but I can't see it has had any measurable effect on accuracy.

Well, that might depend upon the shooter. But the flat tipped target rounds, Tenex, and similar are certainly more accurate at longer range. They also impact most effectively on rabbits, albeit they are a touch pricey for regular bunny bashing. Bench rest accuracy can depend upon the rifle. Another club member finds RWS R50 better in his custom bench rest rifle. My Martinis all prefer the Eley Tenex, as does, surprisingly, my old CZ style.

[saleen322]

I had a BSA small bore barreled by Eric Johnson for Al Freeland. It was one of Johnson's five star barrels It had Vaver sights front and back but it had a left hand stock and I don't shoot from that side. A friend of mine just had to have it so I let it go. He took the rifle, jumped into his truck and took off for Victorville where he sold the rifle for a nice profit to a fellow who right away sold it to someone else. I am sure he made a profit also. I do have a BSA INTL MATCH which I seldom shoot because it is so heavy.

I currently have 2 rifles with Johnson barrels, both of them are 5-star. They are getting more and more difficult to find.

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt98/saleen322/Homemade%20Rem%2037-Benny%20Action/HM-5.jpg

[dromia]

The development comparison is a bit like apples and oranges as the centerfire rounds have a plethora of handloaders experimenting and developing loads, components and techniques which has been fed back into and absorbed by the industry. The humble rimfire however is limited to the what the industry develops and what the market is happy with. Without handloaders pushing the accuracy envelope and showing what is possible then the rimfire will always be at a disadvantage development and expectation wise.

[1066]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. After a hundred years of development I think the .22lr reached it's accuracy peak about thirty years ago. If there has been any significant accuracy improvements I feel this is more to do with the use of barrel tuners etc.

I think if you were to shoot a good BSA International from a fixed rest at 100 yards with batch tested Tenex made 30 years ago and current manufacture, there would be very little difference. (Apart from the price)

[Bad Ass Wallace]

PTA came through so I picked up my $200 BSA 12/15 that I bought at the Toowoomba gunshow. The barrel & action has been extensivily rusted at some stage and it was described as "FAIR" condition.


Took it down the range today and put a few groups of CCI standard pistol ammunition through it and was suprised that most 5 shot groups could be covered by a $1 coin; this is about as good as I can shoot at 50m with open sights!


Another keeper!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/BSA%2012-15B_zpsdaxklicu.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/BSA%2012-15B_zpsdaxklicu.jpg.html)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/BSA%2012-15A_zpsuq0exhcs.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/BSA%2012-15A_zpsuq0exhcs.jpg.html)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/Test%20target_zpsq7mkhhkc.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/Test%20target_zpsq7mkhhkc.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That particular sight, although clumsy-looking on such a dainty action and requiring a specially milled receiver, is surely the best for iron-sighted target shooting on the Martini-shaped Martinis. I've managed to find a supply of belts down to 600 grit for my hand-held belt sander, and that would do a good job on the action sides if you care to reblue it.

I always think it is a pity the inside-lubed .22 Winchester Rimfire, like a short version of the .22WRM, didn't become the standard .22. It didn't achieve the accuracy of the .22LR, but with as much development work I think it could have become better.

The world would be a poorer place without the eccentrics who load the .22LR, trephine holes in their own skulls under local anaesthetic, etc. But as long as a single shot rifle is involved, I think they would do better with the .22LR uncrimped, as it was made by Stevens for its first few years.

[enfield]

I hear those Australian $1 coins are REEEEEAAALY BIG though.

[samari46]

I've only seen one International for sale and exactly 3 22rf small actioned martini for sale in the flesh. I have two, one is a 12/15 and the other is a Canadian marked one that I finally got all the lead out of the barrel. Have a BSA target buttstock that I need to fit and a stevens forend for the barrel. The stevens forend is wide and fits the Canadian marked 22 almost as if it were made for it. Frank

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I hear those Australian $1 coins are REEEEEAAALY BIG though.

Big enough to fit 5 kangaroos upon! :kidding:

[rapidfire]

Do any of you Brits have small parts for the BSA International? I want all spares and repairs....that you can spare. I am new to this forum, but I think you can P.M. me as I am not on any or all forums at any given time.

[Bigslug]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. After a hundred years of development I think the .22lr reached it's accuracy peak about thirty years ago. If there has been any significant accuracy improvements I feel this is more to do with the use of barrel tuners etc.

I think if you were to shoot a good BSA International from a fixed rest at 100 yards with batch tested Tenex made 30 years ago and current manufacture, there would be very little difference. (Apart from the price)

A buddy and I were discussing the merits of the more entry-level Anschutz 63, the Winchester 52, and the BSA match guns, and we pretty much concluded that once you find the ammo that any such rifle likes, the only real advantage to the more modern rifles is probably the ability to adjust the stock to better fit the shooter and the body position. Given that you're launching a tiny, slow, wind-prone bullet from a case that gets crushed off-center by the firing pin, one has to wonder just how much farther "up" we can take the platform.

[Reverend Al]

I just bought this take down sporter by W.W. Greener from an old shooting friend of mine a little while ago. I've had several baby Martini rifles over the years since they are relatively common up here in Canada, but I've never seen one with a windage adjustable rear barrel sight like this one. It is nicely checkered, lightly border engraved on the action, has a Beeches style front sight with a post and globe, a target tang sight, and a bakelite pistol grip adaptor. Going to shoot it for the first time tomorrow actually ...

https://i.imgur.com/enAwjN6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WIKKtEP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TQr6dxk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6TXAmLQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vs1wnYM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/T6bmTzm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rYK3hOc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eOc8GOx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jLzgBB5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZoPUNLg.jpg

[If1Hitu]

Are these British smallbore rifles common in the USA. I managed to buy this left handed International Mk 2 complete with target sight which is a mirrored reverse of a RH one!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/BSAMk2B.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/BSAMk2B.jpg.html)

20 shots over a bench at 50m on an air pistol target!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/1807T4.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/1807T4.jpg.html)I have never seen a rifle that look like this one in the USA.

[DeputyDuke]

I just bought this take down sporter by W.W. Greener from an old shooting friend of mine a little while ago. I've had several baby Martini rifles over the years since they are relatively common up here in Canada, but I've never seen one with a windage adjustable rear barrel sight like this one. It is nicely checkered, lightly border engraved on the action, has a Beeches style front sight with a post and globe, a target tang sight, and a bakelite pistol grip adaptor. Going to shoot it for the first time tomorrow actually ...

https://i.imgur.com/enAwjN6.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WIKKtEP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TQr6dxk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6TXAmLQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vs1wnYM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/T6bmTzm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rYK3hOc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eOc8GOx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jLzgBB5.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZoPUNLg.jpg
Dang I like it when I see rifles made back when companies and men cared about building fine things. I wish someone could explain how with all the advances in computers and machining and precision factories are only building ugly **** with plastic stocks, ugh!

[enfield]

100 years from now people will say , stay away from the 100 year old guns, get a 200 year old one, they are way better.

[Chev. William]

The Modern, Holding company owned, Manufacturers all seem to be 'under the thumbs' of low Imagination Accountants and Lawyers who demand Lowest Possible manufacturing costs for the Highest Rate of production possible. Fit, Trim, and Finish All add to Costs. And the accountants want the Maximum Financial return in the shortest time frame possible, **** the future.

A few family owned Custom Build Shops still exist that can produce beautiful work but it is NOT cheap and does take Time!

Chev. William

[30calflash]

I have never seen a rifle that look like this one in the USA.

Freeland imported them decades ago, was the main importer for them at the time. Very nice rifles.

In later years some model 12/15's were brought in, another very nice rifle. I got one back then, lighter barrel, with Parker Hale sights. Wish I could get some post front sight inserts for it.

[UKShootist]

Freeland imported them decades ago, was the main importer for them at the time. Very nice rifles.

In later years some model 12/15's were brought in, another very nice rifle. I got one back then, lighter barrel, with Parker Hale sights. Wish I could get some post front sight inserts for it.

Keep your eyes on eBay. They come up there fairly regularly. The post inserts are not so common but they are about. What size front sight do you have? I might have a spare.

[30calflash]

Sorry for the late reply UKS, and thanks for the offer. Been looking for posts for a while off and on. Let me poke aorund some before I check in with you.

30CF.