Blackpowder & 243, 308, 223, 30-30 case capacity, velocity is it working?

[AJG]

Hi all,

I plan in starting Trials for my Black Powder again with lab grade KNO3 and activated Carbon for charcoal.
Now I am loading it (if it works) into my 38 spl and 357 Magnum cases. 357 mag seems to have about 27 grains of water capacity. 223 rem seems to have 31 grain water capacity and 243 win and 308 win has about 54 grains of water capacity. 30-30 Win has about 45 grains of water capacity (30 grains should be normal as states as well the Name of the caliber).

Which one will lend itself best for use with Black Powder (considered normal weigth bullets for each caliber)? I am Living in Southamerica and can not buy any powder for reloading.

I would think the biggest case volume is best for Black Powder. Is that rigth? Can I fill any of them rigth full with Black Powder wihtout blowing up the gun?
223, 30-30 has the best gun I am interested in (future gun buy for use with Balck Powder and reloading) but have small case capacities.

Which velocities do you guys get with Maximum Charge of Black Powder in each above or similar calibers?

[rfd]

i do believe that black powder likes reasonably straight walled cases over easily identifiable bottle neck cases.

[Vann]

I'd say that your best bet will be the 30-30.

[AJG]

why would be the 30-30 win the best of These for Black powder?
Have you PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with it?

I read some article and post they state with 30-30 win full of black powder they get up to 1300 fps velocity. That is slow. I would want about 1800 to 2000 fps with Black powder for reasonable energy Levels (1300 fps seems to be an energy Level of about 563 ft-lbs energy or similar as an 357 Magnum full power). I would want to ask for an energy Level of about 900 ft-lbs.

ANYONE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IN REAL LIFE?

[victorfox]

Man, a .30 170gr lead boolit with the SD it possesses @ 1300fps would pass tru a deer lengthwise (I might be exaggerating... 1600 would be best), but it's not weak by any means. A regular 44-40 is 200gr at 1100fps and have killed a bunch of men and animals alike.

Energy means very little in real life. If it was so, the muzzleloaders wouldn't kill anything. Or the .22lr...

Also, case capacity of the 30-30 is larger so BP would be very feasible, a full case wouldn't damage the gun. The .223 on black powder would work too, but then a small bullet in a small case... You would get maybe 22 magnum performance?

[country gent]

Most of the black powder cartridges were running in the 1200-1400fps range as originally loaded. "Power" was increased by increasing bullet weight at the same velocity. Black powder takes more increase to see a change in velocity than smokless does. On the 38 spl I would expect velocities in the 600-700 fps range. The 357 700-800 fps. The 223 may get 900-1000 fps. The 243 and 308 are posibbly in the 1300 fps range if you can get compression right thru th smaller neck shoulder. The 30-30 has a less defined shoulder ( more in line with the BP bottle necked cases a longer neck to work with and a decent capacity. Getting coarser granulation of powders to flow thru the smaller necks may be a chore also. As stated above a 170-180 grn bullet at 1300 FPS will be very effective. Issues loading the bottle necked cartridges will be compression ( the plug will be much smaller than the powder column) On the 223, 243, and 308 the short neck may leave alot of bullet below the neck / shoulder. And Air space in the case due to this. Start very conservative and work up slowly be safe

[AJG]

Victorfox

Have you PERSONAL (no hearsay) experience in reloading 44-40 Win with Black powder?

44 is the 44 caliber bullet and 40 stands for 40 grains of Black Powder.
So 44-40 filled with Black powder gets to 1100 fps? That gives you with an ballistic coefficient of about .224, bullet is 200 grain an muzzle velocity of 537 ft-lbs. So about the same as a 30-30 Win will have at an max Black Powder velocity of 1300 fps and bullet is 150 grain.

It is still ONLY in the power Levels of an 357 Magnum.

If I have a rifle I want to shoot 1000 meters. 1000 meters is medium range here and the most Minimum is about 400 meters.
Calculating: 200 grain bullet with ballistic coefficient of .224 and 1100 fps you have an Maximum range of about 210 meters and by that distance you are at 5 mil dots on such an rifle scope already and at 210 meters you have an energy of 375 ft-lbs (about a strong 9mm energy Level) and a bullet drop of 39". It is very short range but retains very good the energy and is suitable for home defense but ONLY SHORT RANGE HUNTING.

[AJG]

ANYONE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE LOADING Black Powder in 223, 243, 308, 30-30?

REAL LIFE experience please.

[mcdaniel.mac]

Victorfox

Have you PERSONAL (no hearsay) experience in reloading 44-40 Win with Black powder?

44 is the 44 caliber bullet and 40 stands for 40 grains of Black Powder.
So 44-40 filled with Black powder gets to 1100 fps? That gives you with an ballistic coefficient of about .224, bullet is 200 grain an muzzle velocity of 537 ft-lbs. So about the same as a 30-30 Win will have at an max Black Powder velocity of 1300 fps and bullet is 150 grain.

It is still ONLY in the power Levels of an 357 Magnum.

If I have a rifle I want to shoot 1000 meters. 1000 meters is medium range here and the most Minimum is about 400 meters.
Calculating: 200 grain bullet with ballistic coefficient of .224 and 1100 fps you have an Maximum range of about 210 meters and by that distance you are at 5 mil dots on such an rifle scope already and at 210 meters you have an energy of 375 ft-lbs (about a strong 9mm energy Level) and a bullet drop of 39". It is very short range but retains very good the energy and is suitable for home defense but ONLY SHORT RANGE HUNTING.

Ah, i see you meant 100m.

You're getting too wrapped around energy numbers and disregarding the experience of people who kill with low-energy rounds and even bows. Arrows have very low muzzle energy!

Black powder is low-energy and has a slow burn rate. The burn rate determines how fast you can push a pressure wave, which determines your acceleration, which determines your velocity. That's physics. You don't get around the physics. Newton is your daddy.

Energy does not kill, it's merely one sliver of the equation along with shot placement, bullet design, and physiology that determines what happens upon impact.

[Harter66]

Your asking for a lot from BP in any of the cases mentioned.

Depending on what your 30-30 platform is will make a big difference in what you can do with it . The NOE 314-230 might work very well with the 30-30 if you have enough twist . It will raise the BC dramatically. Based on my calculations a start velocity of 1550 would carry over 1000 ftlb just past 100 meters . (Strelok calculator ) my 30 WCF doesn't have enough twist to do this consistently.

With BP I think there is a reason for the straight wall cases . I think it has to do with the shock wave of the powder burn . This I expect would lead to bad things in 223 and 243 . The 30 WCF looks like a scaled down 45-70 by comparison.

If we all have a 48th ed Lyman book you can find that within its trap door working limits the 45-110 with an extra 10" of bbl will match the 458 WM with the 405 JSP. I think chasing 1000 metres with BP in less than something on par case wise with the 40-65 and up is going to be less than satisfactory.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It may be that you mean activated charcoal, which just means charcoal with an intricate pore structure to permit easy absorption of chemicals it is desirable to remove from liquids. That sounds like it should be good, although I don't know if that structure would be better than ordinary charcoal after the process of extremely fine grinding and incorporation of the constituents, which undoubtedly is necessary. But I can't see it being worse.

You can't make really good black powder with pure carbon, if that is what you mean. Essentially gasoline etc. takes the oxygen for combustion or explosion from the air. Smokeless powder has it in the same molecule as the fuel elements, and black powder has it in other molecules in the mixture, i.e. the sulphur and charcoal take oxygen from the saltpetre.

But while the formulae we see read KNO3 + S + C, this doesn't actually work at the speed required of a firearm. It seems like ignition depends on other elements within the molecules of the charcoal.

Revolver and shotgun cartridges can work extremely well with black powder. In the 1930s, when the single action Colt was the standard way of firing the .45LC, the most powerful commercial load was a black powder one. With shotguns the only snag about not using smokeless powder are the smoke, which doesn't matter except maybe in organised shoots of driven game, and a slight increase in recoil.

But in a rifle it is different. A large case capacity will greatly increase fouling, and above a certain level you could make it as big as a Tabasco sauce bottle without increasing velocity. What a heavy charge does rather better (though also just up to a point) is enabling you to use a heavier bullet for the calibre. But a heavy bullet requires faster twist rifling, and that increases the tendency of the bore to foul. With black powder the slowest rifling twist that will stabilize the bullet is far more important than it is with smokeless.

If black powder is really important, you will very likely want to use cast bullets as well. For those a bullet with a long cylindrical surface engaging the rifling is best. The .223, for example, will be nearly limited to a small game rifle, and in this case a .22 Hornet would probably be better. The .32 Winchester Special, with its slower twist, had the reputation of being better with black powder than the .30-30, but I don't know if anyone makes a new rifle in that chambering now. I'd call a black powder .30-30 better for small deer or other game than large (Capybara, maybe?) For anything large, and most especially dangerous, I would rather trust a .45-70 or .444 Marlin.

[AJG]

no. I mean 210 meters according to federalpremium.com ballistics calculator. 210 meters is about max range in theory.
1000 meters (one thousand) is medium range here. We at least must reach about 400 meters here (considered short range).

[AJG]

Ballistics of Scotland,

We will continue our talk at evening. I got to get to work.

Ok.
have a nice one.

[AJG]

yes activated charcoal. In spanish: Carbono activado.
According to an chemist he suggests it and lab grade KNO3 (I do not know if Sulfur is neccesary) since supposed there is an issue with air or oxigen too much or too less (as I understood if any of those substances get air, it is oxigenized and will not work propperly).
Supposedly oxigen is the enemy of the Black Powder so it has to be sealed airtight all the time.

If there is an chemist amongst you please explain in more Details about the Black Powder issue (oxigen, water, etc eefects on Black powder).

[daschnoz]

ANYONE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE LOADING Black Powder in 223, 243, 308, 30-30?

REAL LIFE experience please.

I have loaded 308WIN with black powder.

Goex FFFg
147gr FMJ bullet (M80 ball)
Standard large rifle primer
Average velocity at 25 yards - about 1600fps


I did this for 2 reasons:

Like you, I wanted to know if it could be done, and if so, how well would it perform.
For fun - you should see the look on someone's face when I sneak one of these into the magazine (he's shooting my gun, so calm down folks).



When you load, make sure that the bullet seats on the powder. A compressed charge is not a bad thing when using black powder, so fill the case with as much powder as possible while leaving enough room for the bullet. I pretty much filled the cases to the top of the case mouth, tapped the case gently to settle the powder, then seated the bullet. It ended up to be about 50gr of powder (! ! ! BY WEIGHT ! ! !).

I haven't loaded black powder into any other calibers. 308WIN is the only rifle I have that is a bolt action. All of my other rifles are gas operated semi-autos and cleaning up after black powder in those would be ugly. All of my pistols are semi-auto as well, so I haven't tried any pistol calibers either.

[M-Tecs]

If I have a rifle I want to shoot 1000 meters. 1000 meters is medium range here and the most Minimum is about 400 meters.




no. I mean 210 meters according to federalpremium.com ballistics calculator. 210 meters is about max range in theory.
1000 meters (one thousand) is medium range here. We at least must reach about 400 meters here (considered short range).

I am throwing the BS flag on this one. 1,000 meters is 1093.6133 yards (one kilometer or 5/8 of a mile). That is hardly medium range unless your targets are large buildings.

Since you are using the Federal Ballistic Calculator compare the Federal Match 308 with the 168 grain bullet to the 175. Out of a 20 inch service rifle the 168 go subsonic at around 850 yards. The buffeting tends to make them start to tumble. With a max load of smokeless in a longer barreled bolt gun you can get 168 Match Bullets to stay supersonic but just barely. The 175 will stay supersonic at a 1,000 yards. No way you are going to get close to the velocity required with BP.

What are you shooting at that you consider 1,000 meters medium range?

[victorfox]

I'm with M-Tecs. What are going to do with these loads? If I could have a rifle, it would be a 30-30, 308 or 30-06, because ammo availability and would use them up to 300, 400 meters (doubtfully!) hunting boar. Most shots occur around 30-150 meters in practice, and in our boar case, they would be limited to about 100 meters. So why would I want a rifle? 1) accuracy 2) power to humanely kill. But in this case a 12ga shotgun with good slugs would work fine.

If you check the long distance records of target shooting using BPCR, most are shot with some sort of .45 rifle (45-70, 90, 100, 120) or larger, as Countrygent puts on post #6, with BP you need a larger projectile to increase energy. That's why they shot elephants with 4-bores (about 1" diameter) in 19th century and now a "small" .458 bullet do the job.

I never loaded 44-40 with black powder, I'm using printed historical data to point out the figures. This guy, however, does quite good at 300 meters with a BP 44-40. Check: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxXomBwzm24

As for penetration, you can check the same guy here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awnotbWMFLw

HTH

[Harter66]

With out sulphur the ignition temperature of BP increases. It becomes harder to ignite, I'm sure a magnum primer would do the job most of the time. As to it oxidizing and breaking down . Through an oversight that is a rather drawn out story of it own I left a TC Hawken loaded for 11 months with just the hammer down on the nipple . The result? Cap , raise the hammer , set trigger , hold , clack bang and cling on steel in the expected impact area . Granted my annual average humidity is 24% so that helps I'm sure .

There are some cowboy shooters that do a thing called wild bunch that involves 1911s loaded with BP .

Based on information above I'd say the 308 with the NOE 230gr might get the job done .
I just ran the calculator out to 1000 YD it says with the NOE Bullet that a 500 yd drop ,started at 1550 fps is just over 400 INCHES and 1032 INCHES at 1000 YD 955 fps and 550 ftlb at 600 yd it has to survive the drop through trans-sonic. It would appear that the 308 can do this . At least for a while.

[M-Tecs]

Wild Bunch 1911 shooters normally shoot smokeless loads. http://www.sassnet.com/wildbunch/handbooks/WB%20Action%20Shooting%20Handbook%20Vers%209a.pdf

The 45 ACP was first loaded with Bullseye but the 19111 will function with BP.

The 303 British was originally loaded with BP. Velocity claims of the day were high compared to todays chronographed results. The 303 with Goex 3fg and over compressed gave me 1575 FPS with a 180-grain cast bullet.

The 303 case has about 2.7 grains water capacity more than the 308 so I would guess velocity would be less.

[Harter66]

Admission of having half the info ..... I wonder how I got it all crossed up...... to many articles not enough notes.

[AJG]

Dear M TEC and Daschnoz,

Thanks Daschnoz. Your info is a very big help. Seems you are the only expert who has done this in real life.

M TEC. One of my fence is 500 meter Long and broad. Adyacent is another fence with another 500 meters Long and broad. And continue so 4 times more. So sometimes there are wild hogs in any of the fences. I do not want go grab my vehicle, start it and drive through 3 or 4 doors (cattle fence doors. Open Close, open Close, open Close, open Close, etc) in order to get the shot. As well we have a high water tank from which I very well would be able to set up an "snipers nest" and shoot anything from there a few miles (3 to 4 Kilometers) away. I am sure somebody will suggest to me a 50 BMG Armalite caliber rifle. So there you go. It is almost free land and you can see a few Kilometers without disturbance.

[M-Tecs]

Seeing something and hitting are a different matter. At over a kilometer misjudging yardage by 30 meters will give you a miss. Same for misjudging the wind by 1 KPH. How is your wind reading ability and what is your actual long range shooting experience? Any LR competition experience?

What bullets are you planning on using? BP accuracy and fouling control go hand in hand. How are you going to deal with that?

[nekshot]

I tried a lot of the things you are refrerencing included pull 22 lr bullet , dump the powder and fill with black and reinsert lead and go bang. It goes bang but I am sorta lazy and decided I prefer cleaning muzzle loaders rather than center fires. But, hey have a go at it and scratch the itch! That's what I did.

[AJG]

M TEC
Yes that is 100% true. Seeing is a whole other subject than hitting at that distance.
Long range experience? None.
Till now Long Range was nothing else than Long Rifle (22 LR).
I am fed up with that curvy 22 LR round at over 150 meters. That is why I went into reloading and Change the guns to reloadable ammo (till now 9mm Luger and 9mm Federal Rimmed/38 Short Colt +P+). I started this thread to see which would be for m the most feasable reloadable rifle caliber; as well in the case of SHTF I have to use black powder.
hickhock45 I believe has loaded and shot 9mm Luger out of an Glock pistol. I have an S&W SD9VE and that should work even better and safer (Standard rifling and no unsupported chamber).
308 50 BMG 223 and 7.62x39 they are slowly making illegal and I believe they can not be had anymore. That leaves me only with the 30-30 Win. I hope I can Import bullet molds so I will shoot everything cast bullets. SWC and WC with Lee Molds. As well I can reload 12 ga with Black powder since I havelots of empties from Scavenging powder and lead for reloading. It would be nice to reload Black Powder in 12 ga (since they have still the primers in them and load them with Buck&Ball (George Washington load).
Independence and ability to defend are the main intentions as well as hunting. If I can shoot and hit with the rifle (Black powder) 500 meters it will do it I guess.

[victorfox]

you should try getting a 45-70 then... For the long shots I don't know. I would get a flatter shooting caliber like 308, 30-06 and such and only use factory loads or reloads of the same power level and then practice practice...

With these alternative load "ideas" we've been talking best scenario you would have to correct some 3 meters height and struggle with windage.

Within 300 yards you would be fine with either black powder or reduced loads using scavenged shotshell powder from shotshells.

[AJG]

Using 308 30-06 factory ammo is not an Option due to high local cost. Any rifle caliber is not an Option if not reloaded since it is prohibitively expensive.

I Need an adjustable stock for all my rifles and shotguns. None of my Long guns are anymore without adjustable stocks (they have all adjustable stocks). So yes caliberwise 45-70 Gov is the best Option as well as ammo availlability concerns (buy 'em once and reload 'em 30 times).
But as fas as I can see there is no rifle with adjustable stock. 30-30 Win gun I am looking at is Mossberg 464 SPX Lever gun and in 308 Win is Mossberg MVP Flex bolt Action (both have adjustable stocks).

[M-Tecs]

AJG

For the average hunter/shooter on large hogs (300 pounds plus) using modern 308 or 30/06 cartridges 300 meters is about the effective distance limit. With cast and top quality BP half that is realistic.

To accomplish you goals your will need a high end laser ranger finder, very high end optics and equipment that is sub MOA. For optics clarity isn't the issue. Its tracking and repeatability that is the major shortcoming of optics.

You will also need a spotter and lots experience of shooting long distance with a spotter or shoot lots of Long Range competition. Wind reading will be your greatest challenge.

Given our location, experience and lack of components in my opinion your are facing insurmountable challenges.

[dverna]

It is relatively easy to make an adjustable stock.

If I were in your position, I would get a .45/70. You cannot get high velocity using black powder so bullet weight is your friend.

If shooting. .22LR at 150 meters is frustrating for you, you will go completely crazy shooting black powder at 1000 meters. Look at the drop tables and wind drift tables.

I suggest investing in a rangefinder as even an error of 50 meters in range estimation will be a miss. You will also need to learn how to shoot and read the wind. This can be done inexpensively with an air rifle at ranges up to say 75 meters. Of course, you cannot kill larger game with an air gun, but you will wound a lot of game at 500 meters with the calibers you are considering using black powder.

[AJG]

What M TEC says seems to me realistic.
That is what I feared.

Using Black Powder or shotgun powder from scavenged shotdhells for reloading gives ONLY a glorified +P++ 9mm Luger power Level or an glorified 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum power Level if any caliber rifle loaded to top with Black powder gives just around 500 to 900 ft-lb of energy and very limited range and huge bullet drop.
That is why I am not that after getting an rifle even if I can reload it since I just do not have the propper powder for reloading.
Seems there is a reason early Lever guns where pistol caliber cartridges while using Black Powder.

Basically the 45-70 Gov seems to be the epitomy (the very best) for realoading with Black Powder. If someone makes a rifle with adjustable stock in that caliber I will be glad to go with that caliber. It seems using 30-30 Win with BP or shotgun powder there is just not a big enough difference in energy Levels and range between 30-30 win and 357 Magnum/44 Magnum for let us say 400 Yard range hunting.

Looks like I stay with pistol caliber reloading (9mm and at most 357 Magnum).

[AJG]

no messin' around with modifying stocks or "making" adjustable stock. In the USA you can just buy all accesories but here in Southamerica there is just no supplies for any modifying.
I agree caliber wise 45-70 Gov is the best Option. Just Need a propper rifle.

[M-Tecs]

What country are you in?

[AJG]

Basically what it gets down too is:
Oldtimers: deficient powder (Black powder) so they had to add a heavier bullet. - Speed + bullet size/weigth= short range
Modern times: more efficient smokeless powder so they can cut down on bullet weigth and size. + Speed - bullet size/weigth= long range

Just one Thing replaced the other.
So I will have short range, heavy bullet and big size bullet, slow Speed since I am stuck with powder Technology in the 1873's.

That is what it boils down to (powder Technology made the whole difference).

[AJG]

I am in Southamerica and not far away from Brazil (as any Country is in Southamerica).
Want to stay secret about my Location (any time Venezuelan type Situation can occur). In case of Venezuela let us paint this scenario: anybody knows you reload they may storm your house seeking to grab some ammo and kill you by the way.

[TXGunNut]

30WCF is a bit disappointing with BP but you're welcome to experience it yourself. BTW and contrary to popular lore the 30WCF was not designed as a BP cartridge. The second "30" designates 30 grs of smokeless powder. 32WS may be a better choice.

[M-Tecs]

One item I neglected to mention about optics. None of the internal adjustment scopes will have enough elevation for long range hunting with BP cartridges. You will need external adjustments to handle the amount of drop you are looking for.

What does 30/06 commercial ammo cost you per round in US dollars?

[AJG]

For your reference her in US$ actual Prices (Prices as is per round today in my Country in Southamerica):
9mm Luger 0.81$
30-06 is 3.31$
38 spl is 1.01$
44 mag is 1.93$
45 acp is 1.01$
357 mag 1.56$
So there you go. Factory ammo is not affordable less for Shooting regularly. Reloading yes here around is allways saving huge Money (I scavenge shotshells for powder for reloading 9mm Luger and +p+ 38 short Colt).

[AJG]

308 is about 2.94 US$ as are in the same ballpark 30-30 Win and 243 Win and similar. 45-70 Gov should be about 3.31$ as well similar to 30-06. These are actual to date factory ammo Prices in Southamerica (PMC, Federal, American Eagle, etc.).

[M-Tecs]

Even at those price shooting the hogs with commercial 308 or 30/06 is still going to be cheaper that the laser range finders, optics and firearm required for long range BP hunting. Use the cast and BP for close and practice.

[AJG]

M TEC,

I gently disagree.
A few Pops cost you almost as much to pay of all reloading Equipment.
Let us say all reloading equipmnt costs 1000 US$. So. 1000 US$/2.94$= 340 rounds of 308 let us say. That is not worthed.
I rather have all reloading Equipment and the ability to reload multiple calibers than Shooting those sinfull expensive factory ammo.

It is no that there are anymore that much wild hogs around here. Their Population got reduced since everybody shoots them where they are finding them. Basically there are not anymore huntable (eatable) animals around here. So the shear joy and defense purposes, governement control Evasion, ammo independence are main purpose of Black Powder and reloading.

Believe me. The governemet does not like the idea someone is reloading. They are wanting to mark (laser mark) every round what is entering the Country to trace it and know who bought it. lready now you can only buy ammo if you have an Register Card for your gun (example. If you do not have an legal shotgun you can not buy shotgun ammo. If you do not have an 243 rifle you can not buy that ammo).

[M-Tecs]

With the cost of the lasers, optics and firearm to realistically and successfully achieve the distances you are talking you are talking $3,000 to $5,000 to start with.

[AJG]

I do not know.

A 308 Mossberg MVP Flex is about 800$ in the US. + a 200$ scope should be sufficient (here you can anyways just get scope to about 400$. Rangefinder (basically any up to 1000 Yards will do it) are about 209$. Considered the gun you have anyways (regardless of factory ammo or reloads) the Long range Equipment costs you only about max 500$.
If you have an "high power" rifle a rangefinder you will have to have anyways. So basically there are no additional costs involved regardless you shoot medium range or Long range.

[AJG]

https://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Scout-Laser-Rangefinder-Black/dp/B00AMPJU4K/ref=sr_1_18?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1471319790&sr=1-18&keywords=rangefinder

[M-Tecs]

Try one on a flat surface and see how the works. All the low cost laser range finders split the beam so on flatland they have a hard time. Animals have hair and are not very reflective and again a challenge for the low cost range finders. I have built guns for some serious long range hunters. They haven't found anything that works under $2,000.00

You are stating up to 4 kilometer shots


As well we have a high water tank from which I very well would be able to set up an "snipers nest" and shoot anything from there a few miles (3 to 4 Kilometers).


with a 308 with cast using black powder????????? Your $200 scope will not have the elevation required and chances of it tracking and repeating for any length of time is slim to none.

You will need very good spotting scope for the spotter to see bullet impacts at distance. Again not cheap.

Reading the wind. You will need a wind speed monitor. Again not cheap.

A 308 Federal Match with a 175 will drop 3184 inches (265.5 feet) at 2,000 yards. Wind drift will be 446 inches 37.16 feet) at 2,000 yards. Your BP cast will be at least three times more than that.

Maybe we are talking different things. I am talking about being able to hit what you are shooting at. If you just wanting to shoot at them just use your 22. It will carry 3 kilometers and will be just as effective (at 1,000 meters plus) as the setup that your are proposing.

Ammunition accuracy. Commercial match 308 should be 1/2 MOA or better. Hunting ammo 1 MOA is normal. Some will do better and some not that good. Surplus can be good to poor. For a new caster/reloader/BP shooter 2 MOA would be very good.

Comparing 500 meters to 1,000 meters. A 1,000 meters is way more than twice as difficult as 500 meters.

I have shot lots of cleans at 800 and 900 at Palma matches. I have yet to shoot a clean at a 1,000 during an Palma match. Difficulty increase greatly as the distance increases.

Were are you coming up with "1000 meters is medium range"?

[mcdaniel.mac]

I do not know.

A 308 Mossberg MVP Flex is about 800$ in the US. + a 200$ scope should be sufficient (here you can anyways just get scope to about 400$. Rangefinder (basically any up to 1000 Yards will do it) are about 209$. Considered the gun you have anyways (regardless of factory ammo or reloads) the Long range Equipment costs you only about max 500$.
If you have an "high power" rifle a rangefinder you will have to have anyways. So basically there are no additional costs involved regardless you shoot medium range or Long range.
An MVP Flex is not stacking up 1000m cold-bore shots, nor is a cheap scope. Assuming your BP loads can be 2MOA accurate, and assuming you do everything perfectly, you're looking at a 20" spread, about a half meter, at that distance.

4000 meters is not long range. That's out of range for precision rifles. That is crew-served mortar range.

[gandydancer]

ANYONE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE LOADING Black Powder in 223, 243, 308, 30-30?
REAL LIFE experience please.

Why would anyone want to in those calibers?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

AJG

For the average hunter/shooter on large hogs (300 pounds plus) using modern 308 or 30/06 cartridges 300 meters is about the effective distance limit. With cast and top quality BP half that is realistic.

To accomplish you goals your will need a high end laser ranger finder, very high end optics and equipment that is sub MOA. For optics clarity isn't the issue. Its tracking and repeatability that is the major shortcoming of optics.

You will also need a spotter and lots experience of shooting long distance with a spotter or shoot lots of Long Range competition. Wind reading will be your greatest challenge.

Given our location, experience and lack of components in my opinion your are facing insurmountable challenges.

I think this is pretty good advice, and .45-70 or .444 Marlin are the best way to go.

In the last days of .450 and .461 match rifles in the UK they got at least as good accuracy at 1200 yards as with any of the early smokeless smallbores. The cartridges often used heavier bullets than the .45-70 and only slightly higher velocity, and were undoubtedly transonic. The important thing is that they were so meticulously loaded that they were transonic at a closely defined point on the trajectory, and the trajectory, although extremely high, was very closely predictable at an exactly known range.

On your own fields you can spend a day or two measuring the distance to various landmarks, which would be a help in extending the range, especially if you can practice on targets distributed there. I would use another of my hobbies, surveyor's theodolites which fall into the gap between modern and antique. Best of all, perhaps, would be to leave farm machinery, sacks etc. lying around, and once the local wildlife is used to them, lie under cover. I knew someone who got a couple of egg-stealing crows by becoming a scarecrow they had learned to ignore.

[nekshot]

As a sniper using black powder you won't get many shots off till they see the smoke! Why not try get some military ammo and get the powder from those rounds whatever it might be. If you have plenty of centerfire primers you could practice a lot till you feel comfortable you have the best amount of powder for given cartridge.

[country gent]

The old timers did very well at longer distances with the various 40s,45s and 50s using black powder. Using heavy for caliber bullets ( 400grn in 40 cal, 500-550 in 45 cal and not sure on the 50) they made solid hits at extreme ranges using BP loads and cast bullets. There are several here who shoot to 1000 yds with both grease groove and Paper Patched bullets. It can be done but takes alot of practice and knowing exact ranges and the zeros for same. There is little room for error when doing this. At the drop angle of the bullet at long range aiming popint may need to be adjusted slightly to get bullet to pass thru the vitals. I dont have the sight settings note books handy right now. You will need good accurate loads with a low extreme spread standard deviation. Range markers will work in place of a range finder. Out to 500-600 yds every 100yds, 500-1000yds every 50 yds, and 1000+ every 25 yds is going to be needed. One thing is that these low velocity rounds ( sub sonic) with heavy bullets dont loose velocity like high velocity rounds do. While a 308 with 168 grn bullet may go sub sonic at 800 - 900 yds a 45 - 70 or 45-90 starting out at 1200 fps may still be traveling around 800-900 fps at 1000 fps with no transition to worry about. If possible watch the ram line at a shilouetter match and see those big 45 cal bullets bounce the rams around at 500 meters. In a good spotting scope or binoculars you can see the bullets disturbance and watch it walk into the target, seeing the drop angle and or trajectory of the bullet and the impact it makes. I have done this at 1000yds with my spotting scope scoring at 1000yds in High power matches. a 308 at 2650- 2700 Has a time of flight of around 2 secs. In the scope from about 600 yds you see the trace and it looks like it will hit 10 ft high and 8 targets over then the wind catches it and drop comes into play and like running on a banked curve it walks back into the target. Seeing this really is enlightening.

[Tracy]

AJG, did you get your homebrew black powder to even work yet?

[victorfox]

It's just me, but if the pigs were a problem in my area, I'd set a stand over a nice bait of dry corn close to their path and would sit there every occasion I could and would pop them with my pump 12... If the infestation is small, that would soon thin the herd.

[AJG]

No I did not get to work the Black Powder.
I had not a Chance to try it out.

Seems the governement is Controlling KNO3 as well and has dryed out the market for it (companies do not have it).
So they try to make it imposible for People to make Black Powder.
No hogs are not that many around. They have to be chased after.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You might get it from a supplier of meat processing supplies. It is used in corned beef, a trade Argentina seems to have lost to Brazil, and sometimes on domestic hogs to make them stay pink after processing. Its additive E number in Europe and INS number elsewhere is 252.

[AJG]

KNO3 is controlled by the national gun agency.
However chemistry supplyers have Natrium nitrate availlable (that is not controlled) which is 99.5% pure as they told me. It Comes in bags of 25 Kg (and it Comes in granules not powder and is not specially airtight-vacuum packaged). I fear it will collect moisture from air since on the Internet Natrium nitrate black powder is of Lower grade (may work or not) as KNO3 based BP.

But other Option is Potassium Nitrate fertilizer but I have no idea how pure it is (it is the stuff I used to date but the bag was at open air at leas half a year already).

Argentina seems to not gotten along well with "international Iluminati-Rothschild Banking and believe-financial systems" in the past. But with new president Macri he is pro international Banking and an elitist (right wing) so he agrees to everything the international Banks tell hin in order to get international credits again.
Argentina was known to be the Southamerican United States of America and with it's pool of italian european People to be the most progressive and richest Country here. But after 1945 this dream has vanished slowly and continuously due to whatever reasons. One reason seems to me the bad relation to the anglo-american countries about the Malvinas conflict (Falkland Islands). Brasil as I have understood made good Money with the Chinese bypassing the USA and so they seems to get attacked economically by the US superpower paying their "treasonry" to Big Daddy. Obviously These are just speculations but very well may the main reason for These Events.

[victorfox]

wow man I can't see how Mr. Macri, who is trying to bring Argentina back to its tracks can be elitist, specislly when you know that old witch Christina is filthy rich and her govt had strong connections with the Latin Communist forum and also with iranian terrorists...

Macri in Argentina is about the same as Trump in America or Bolsonaro in Brazil. The only choices available to fix a liberal/communist/democrat problem. They aren't perfect but they are the current options.

Sorry for bringing this much off topic politics.

[Tracy]

If I couldn't buy potassium nitrate, I would make it. It's not that difficult; can be done in a backyard. Especially since I have chickens and a garden; my "nitrate production facility" would be a compost pile.

[AJG]

Yes tracy,

messin' around with pee, manure and lots of hope it will turn out in a year or so.
We have dairy cows and obviously chicken and garden too much. I have an tomato production facility as well (few greenhouses).

If I make my own potash it is even way more variables which can and I fear will go wrong.

First of all once I have Money i will order some activated charcoal (powder) and then buy an new bag of Potassium nitrate fertilizer. We will see how that works out.
More important however for now is to get my lead bullet molds imported.

[M-Tecs]

What are your going to do for primers?

[AJG]

primers are not a Problem.

They can be ordered directly from the US.
I ordered 10000 and reserved myself 6000 by my local gun shop.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Here is quite a bit of information on the production of potassium nitrate, and also on the use of sodium nitrate as a blasting powder. That means it has power, but less abrupt power, as the requirement in quarrying is usually to lift off large slabs of rock without undue shattering. It might be possible to load cartridges with it, possibly with quite different design in case capacity and bullet weight, and more or even less fouling. A muzzle-loader would cut the cost of finding out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

I wouldn't worry too much about its being available only in granules. No commercial grades of those chemicals, or of sulphur, is as fine as you would have to reduce them to, for black powder. Being so strongly hygroscopic is troublesome, but I think the moisture could be driven out by heat, or probably absorbed by silica gel or calcium chloride, which is so much more powerfully hygroscopic that it will dissolve itself to drops of solution. Wikipedia tells us how the moisture absorption of the powder was reduced by long-term tumbling with more graphite than usual. Tumbling glazing of powder used to make it very hot, through friction, which should help.

A reaction used to produce potassium nitrate in industry is as follows. As it is all done in solution, I doubt if it requires dangerous temperatures, catalysts etc. But I don't know how they separate out the sodium chloride afterwards. Sodium chloride melts at a much higher temperature, so if slow evaporation produces pure crystals, it might be that you could melt one and filter out the other. But there may be an easier chemical method.

NaNO3 + KCl → NaCl + KNO3

There is also a reaction which ought to be very easy, but dangerous and probably expensive, by the reaction of potassium hydroxide and nitric acid. It is a strongly exothermic reaction, and I should recommend a small valve and a long string. It has the merit that when litmus paper indicates neutral, you have nothing but potassium nitrate solution. In the UK potassium nitrate is easy to get, but nitric acid has recently been banned for private users. I use it for etching steel, but I have enough to last a while.

KOH + HNO3 → KNO3 + H2O

The gunpowder industry eventually became extremely good at what it did, but 99.5% purity of ingredients would once have seemed like an impossible dream. In the seventeenth century the British government had its saltpetre man, with authority to dig up stables and cellars, and having once been 100% of my university's eighteenth century French literature class, I know a thing or two about staff toilet facilities which would explain the latter. But he was notorious for exaggerating his powers in order to extort bribes. Queen Elizabeth I got all she needed by a secret deal to exchange arms with the Sultan of Morocco. Nothing really changes.

http://www.researchvault.co.uk/index.php/ammunition/41-saltpetreman

Yes, the story of modern Argentina has been a tragic one. It was once not only the wealthiest country in Latin America, with natural resources wisely exploited, but had some of the most civilized values until power-politics became too seductive. There has never been animosity in the UK against individual Argentinos, who have at times been seen as ineptly exploited. It was largely British management and capital that built the Argentine beef industry, and although a lot of that was sold off to finance the Second World War, there were expropriations as well. It was all so unnecessary, as a steady flow of immigrants were taking Argentine nationality, and native ownership could just as easily have happened in the course of nature, as it did in Colorado.

[scattershot]

1000 yards medium range? 3-4 km from an elevated stand with BLACK POWDERin a case not designed for it? I can't help but think somebody is pulling somebody's leg around here.:bigsmyl2:

[ofitg]

But other Option is Potassium Nitrate fertilizer but I have no idea how pure it is (it is the stuff I used to date but the bag was at open air at leas half a year already).



According to this website, "pure" KNO3 fertilizer is graded 13.8-0-46.5

http://www.haifa-group.com/products/plant_nutrition/multi_k_potassium_nitrate_fertilizer/


A few years ago, another forum member told me a great way to synthesize KNO3 -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?197885-Igniting-the-Matchlock/page2

Does your government restrict ammonium nitrate and potassium carbonate?

[AJG]

Very interesting Ballistics of Scottland,

You must have a few University degrees according to your knowledge (as I do myself as well).

Interesting the salpeterman stories and I did not know the Queen herself "sold herself majesty Soul" to the infidel arabs. I allways thought only the german Kaiser Wilhelm made a treaty with the Turks and called himself "protector of Islam"
What the heck those croocks.
I did not know foreign capital (specially british) built the argentinian Beef industry. Same Thing happens now here were I am located: more and more "Frigorificos" (slaughter houses) of international capital and firms are being built. The actual local head of state seems to be the drug Boss of his own cartel since his Cousin sits in Jail in Uruguay for trafficking cocain (he was a drug Pilot).

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Moroccans are mostly Berbers, and dealing with them was nowhere near as like soul-selling, and poor value for money in it, as some more recent international arms deals. Of course it happened a century or so before the British royal family acquired a small admixture of the blood of Mohammed, via a king of Portugal and the daughter of a Barbary corsair sultan. The British and most especially the Scots (I can't imagine why) have always enjoyed a harmonious relationship with tribal and preferably violent savages, and considerably admired the achievement of the Rifs in the 1920s, who inflicted on Spain the most disastrous of all defeats of a First World army by a Third World one.

Here is Sean Connery in a partly-true story from the days when a hostage-taking Islamic terrorist could be relatively respectable. Although the real-life Raisuli's treatment of the rude occasionally verged on Hannibal Lecter's, he liked his captive Sir Harry Maclean, thirty years a government-approved mercenary for the sultans of Morocco, and let him go without ransom. Of course Sir Harry knew a lot of good stories, and played the bagpipes. He would probably have done the same for Theodore Roosevelt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wind_and_the_Lion

[AJG]

The only Thing I know about that period of time is that the USA had to pay at least 1/4 of ist annual Budget for Tribute to the Sultans of Algier, Morocco and I believe Lybia. They paid that till the US built their Virginia Oak battle ships of which 3 of them arrived at the Sultans and from then the western world had peace from the arabs till basically the World Trade Center attack.
That is why I say: NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER WITH THE INFIDELS. No commerce whatsoever and battle them wherever you find them.
Hitler was an "innocent" compared to the "peacefull" islamic Takeover of the western world Happening right now before of our eyes.
Islam is allways "peacefull" if they are in minority. Once they are in mayority they force other minorities to their believe System.
Just read the carta of the Sultan of Algier which he sent to the United States at ist time. The kur'an says said the Sultan in that official letter to the USA (in my own words): "If in minority Camouflage; once in mayority kill the others with the sword".
Enough said!

[RoyEllis]

1000 yards medium range? 3-4 km from an elevated stand with BLACK POWDERin a case not designed for it? I can't help but think somebody is pulling somebody's leg around here.:bigsmyl2:

At 4km he'd be lucky to hit anything besides dirt, esp. since plunging fire would be necessary at that distance with what he proposes to use....my Barrett M99 is direct fire limited to 2600 meters, after that it's "mortar lobbing guesswork".

[AJG]

Dear Ballistics of Scottland,

As I was for a few years living in an Country in Northamerica I was actually renting togehter a house (housemate) with an Berber of Algeria. The guy was a ****ed up Person to say the least (I will not hold him as the best example of his People but...). He told me Islam in his Country is they are officially Saints but in their Basement they have their drinking room and alcohols stored (islamics are forbidden to drink alcohol). As well they visit regularly whores (obviously officially they do not exist). Soon as it darkens they steer clear into Basements and start drinking and Smoking pipe (whatever stuff is in the pipe. We have to remember that Marijuana is known in Germany as Haschisch which is an direct Translation from the Northafrican word Hashish which is Marijuana). The first terrorists originated in the near orient and during crusader time were known as Hashishim because they stuffed themselves full of Hashish and attacked the crusaders and cirstians by knife (stabbing). "The old from the mountain" was known as their (hashishim) Boss since they had their Headquarters on an mountain from which he sent out his assassins (there the word "assasin" Comes from since it is a resemblance of hashishim).

[perotter]

Yes tracy,

messin' around with pee, manure and lots of hope it will turn out in a year or so.
We have dairy cows and obviously chicken and garden too much. I have an tomato production facility as well (few greenhouses).

If I make my own potash it is even way more variables which can and I fear will go wrong.

First of all once I have Money i will order some activated charcoal (powder) and then buy an new bag of Potassium nitrate fertilizer. We will see how that works out.
More important however for now is to get my lead bullet molds imported.

Activated charcoal may not be the best way to go. A large part of what makes a good charcoal for black powder is the chemicals that are in pores of the charcoal. They are similar to creosote. If they aren't in the charcoal, the powder won't be good.

A very good study was done on this was done by the British government in the 1920-1930 era. They would remove these chemicals from the charcoal with acetone, make powder and test it. Then they would add the chemicals back into the charcoal, make powder and test it. Makes sense because you powder using creosote and no charcoal.

In one of the DIY powder threads here I provided a link to this study. I don't remember which one. You can go thru those threads and find it while you waiting for the other need supplies, etc.

FWIW. I don't know why the British were spending money studying this after black powder had become of limited use by the military.

[AJG]

dear perotter,

Are you sure you are not talking about making anti sunburn oil (medicine) from creosote branches?
If you are sure to talk about black powder than maybe the british recommended cresote Wood for charcoal?

For creosote I understand is a medicinal plant as stated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb6STdpDxNI

I just want to make sure we are talking about black powder making (charcoal selection).

[AJG]

what about just mixing KNO3 with higly flammable oil (oil for fuel and KNO3 as oxidizer).

[Tracy]

Perotter is one of the most knowledgeable about chemistry and black powder guys on this forum. You really need to read this thread, since it has become obvious that you haven't already: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103852-My-homemade-black-powder

[AJG]

Ok. I did not want to belittle anyones knowledge about BP.
Just I am a bit fed up with bad experience (my own bad experiences about BP) with BP and so I start to distrust any Youtubers recommendations since they seem to be Flops.

What about Tannin? It is originated in a specific local Wood in Southamerica and if it burns there is a sticky hard liquid coming out of the Wood which is one of the best Woods for burning.
Tannin substance was used in the 1900 to about 1950's for leather production (I believe to make it soft) and was essential for leather industry. Nowadays it is replaced by sinthetic chemicals.

[perotter]

....
maybe the british recommended cresote Wood for charcoal?
.....

They didn't in the report I'm referring to.

[perotter]

Ok. I did not want to belittle anyones knowledge about BP.
Just I am a bit fed up with bad experience (my own bad experiences about BP) with BP and so I start to distrust any Youtubers recommendations since they seem to be Flops.

What about Tannin? It is originated in a specific local Wood in Southamerica and if it burns there is a sticky hard liquid coming out of the Wood which is one of the best Woods for burning.
Tannin substance was used in the 1900 to about 1950's for leather production (I believe to make it soft) and was essential for leather industry. Nowadays it is replaced by sinthetic chemicals.

Just use table sugar and KNO3. Cheap and easy to get. Simple and fast process to make. Use the KNO3 that you have. It won't go bad because of having been open.

Make it tomorrow and if you have a good way to dry it, you'll be able to shoot it Monday.



Given it was DuPont, back when they were still big into making energetic materials, who did the testing and recommended it to the US government in the 1960's one has to give it some weight as to being worth a try.

[AJG]

perotter,

Which combination and how prepare KNO3 + table sugar?

I have tried it but it is a flop (does not work). KNO3 as fertilizer + table ugar all kinds of variations I have tried. It never worked. Burns way to slow and bullet allways get stuck in barrel

[AJG]

That is why I am distrusting all "Internet cientists" already since my KNO3+table sugar is too slow and not energetic at all. I ball milled it but with no good result for reloading metallic ammo.

[Tracy]

I used a 65:35 KNO3:sucrose proportion, and it works fine in my testing. Not as well as my black powder, but usable. It does need a reasonable heavy bullet and a bit of compression.
You can also add a small amount (maybe 1 percent) red iron oxide (rust, in other words) to make it easier to ignite.
Don't worry about Youtube. Read the thread. There are several guys on there who actually do what they are talking about. Would you rather listen to guys who are making and using their own powder, or your chemist friend who hasn't?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

what about just mixing KNO3 with higly flammable oil (oil for fuel and KNO3 as oxidizer).

I was just reflecting that that is one of the most intelligent and thoughtful things you have said. I think it is a theoretical possibility, but it will ignite not much more rapidly than the oil, and oil vapour ignites while the liquid doesn't. I have it on good authority, and he may be living yet, that you can extinguish a cigarette in an open drum of aviation gasoline, if your are quick enough, and you are probably considering a far less volatile oil.

Ammonium nitrate and fuel oil mixture has been much used by terrorists, but it requires a detonator like blasting explosives do.

[ofitg]

An internet forum is a strange place to seek information if a person doesn't trust "internet scientists".....

Nonetheless, there are other sources - plenty of good information in this book -

http://pyrotechnic.narod.ru/Black_Powder.pdf


Of course, a recipe is just a recipe. Useless without a competent cook.

[AJG]

Into the realm of Terrorist territory I certainly will not enter.

I read a post that said the US governement has tested already for years liquid gunpowder and till now all test seem to have failed (this info supposedly Comes from an third Party who knows a guy who works there). And they continue to plague and deal with that to no results.
If they can not do it how could I with my limited knowledge. The primer might not work neighter if it gets wet and oily as I have noticed it with a few squibs already (oily primers fail).

Rigth now I am drying my ball milled black powder (KNO3 as fertilizer 75%+Commercial charcoal 15%+5%table sugar+5%Sulfur). I heat it in an oven for about 4 hs at about 40 degrees Celsius. I made a sample of above BP recipe and regular BP (75-15-10, only it is not very fine powder since my ball mill Motor started to fail) and both got a Little quicker in burn as original but I believe it is not yet near normal burn rate (both heated at about 30 degrees Celsius and for 2 hs in oven).

[AJG]

My question is: Black powder gets cooked or just ball milled?

Yes it could be just me very well (if I fail with BP).

[AJG]

I again tested my "dried" Black powder (75% KNO3 15%charcoal 10%table sugar) and it burns quicker but not nearly as quick as normal BP. Dried it at 40 degrees Celsius for 4 hs.
I believe the sugar is Messing it up. Now I dry normal recipe BP. We will see how it turns out.

[M-Tecs]

BP test cannon/test gujns are the preferred way to test.

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/high-powered-black-powder.asp

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/10/testing-black-powder-quality.html

http://creagan.net/fireworks/blackpowder.html

[Oliver]

I've loaded a .30-30 with black powder for a lever gun. It worked okay, but I did not chronograph it. As I recall, it held just about 30 grains, but this was some years ago, so it may have been a bit more or less.

I do know, from muzzle-loader experience, that you _need_ a long barrel to get velocity. Black powder just does not burn super quick. There was good reason the old muzzle-loaders had long barrels. You may wish to factor this in when selecting a gun.

[Oliver]

Black powder is extremely hydroscopic, that is, it loves to absorb water. Oxygen is not the enemy, moisture in the air is. The companies that make black powder are a bit secretive about the exact formula. Charcoal is preferred over pure carbon because apparently it ignites easier. The "charcoal" commonly sold here in the US is actually mostly coal dust, with lots of other weird stuff in it. Get, or make, real charcoal if you are going to do this. Generally about 75% KNO2, 15% charcoal, and 10% suffer will work, but you should carefully experiment with exact ratios. To make the powder, mix each ingredient in enough water to make a sort of paste, then mix the pastes together. Add enough water to make it sort of stirrable, like wet cement or mud. Mix it very thoroughly and then pour it into a bunch of small glass or ceramic containers, an ounce or two each. I use old teacups because it pops out easily after drying.

Allow it to dry. You are now in the EXTREMELY DANGEROUS phase of this operation. Using tongs, put a few pieces in a ball mill with lead balls (non-sparking) and figure out how to tumble the mill from a safe distance; i.e. behind a heavy wall. If you survive, your gunpowder will be at least good enough for fireworks. I cannot overemphasize, however, that the odds of you killing or maiming yourself or anyone nearby are large. Do it outdoors and well away from everyone.

The commercial black powder companies coat their ground powder with graphite, as an anti-static protection. I have no idea how to do that.

Really. Buy some powder if at all possible. You will live longer and retain your limbs.

[AJG]

I do not want to make a "wet" recipe of Black Powder. Wet recipe have a big % of loss so it is not economical (I used to get about 10% of the initial weight since all other things are suspended in filter Cloth, etc.). As well the wet method is prone to burn the kitchen if you dry cook it, at least in my experience.

Ball milling is all I want to do (dry recipe). I use glass marbles for milling media. It is outside and should something happen I only make about 1 Kg (2 lbs) each time (used to make since all experiments failed).
I believe the sugar is Messing things up and in few hs we will see if the 70-15-10 recipe when dry is working any better (which I doubt).

[AJG]

Yes I believe the 30-30 will be the best Option for black powder rifle Shooting should my black powder work some day.
I like the Mossberg 464 SPX Lever gun in 30-30 since it has an adjustable stock.
As well my 38spl and 357 mag I will shoot with balck powder out of my Rough Rider 357 mag SAA.

[M-Tecs]

Actually BP is not hydroscopic but the fouling is somewhat hydroscopic. Two hundred year old BP is just as good as the day it was manufactured. Same for BP that was underwater. Just dry it and its fine.

The methods for making high quality BP are readily available. Any deviations from these method will yield lesser power. What you want or don't want doesn't change this simple fact. You want to use a substandard propellant to shoot at a stated distance the is not possible or realistic for the worlds best shooters using the finest equipment available. I don't do if you are simply trolling or if you are serious. If you are serious you need to take a very realistic assessment of what your realistic achievable goals are.

At best you may come close to equaling the power of current BP. If you can you will still be far short of your stated distance requirements.

[AJG]

just got back testing my 75-15-10 Standard formula BP after drying it for 4 hs at 40 degrees Celsius. IT DOES NOT WORK. No any better burn. It burns as slow as allways. For rocket fuel it may work well but never will propell an bullet out of the Barrel.
Ist probably the KNO3 fertilizer or wrong charcoal.

Givin' up?

[perotter]

perotter,

Which combination and how prepare KNO3 + table sugar?

I have tried it but it is a flop (does not work). KNO3 as fertilizer + table ugar all kinds of variations I have tried. It never worked. Burns way to slow and bullet allways get stuck in barrel

I use the one from the US Army TM 31-210 that you have. It worked for me from the first batch. But after that first batch, I realized that the method was nearly identical to how Ma had us kids make homemade fudge. By applying what I had learn as a kid about making fudge, the batches made after that were better.

If it didn't work for you, you likely don't have KNO3 fertilizer. If the US Army doesn't work and you can't buy KNO3, you might consider making the KNO3 directly from cold packs. The cold packs have to be the ones that use ammonium nitrate and not urea. If all you have down there are the urea ones and as far as I know, to make KNO3 from them you'll have to use the natural method of making KNO3 except you use that urea instead of urine, etc.

The US Army method won't work at all with NaNO3, as it never get hard/dry. NaNO3 is the fertilizer that is sold in the US as 'saltpeter'. Ammonium nitrate and sugar won't work either to make powder, but would with charcoal(doesn't need sulfur and has the power of smokeless powders).

[Tracy]

Don't worry about the proportions; 75:15:10 is just about right and deviating a bit makes little difference. I would start with the charcoal. Make it yourself in a retort (metal paint can works fine) of fast-growing wood. Not hardwood. Strip the bark off before you make the charcoal.

Ball mill all ingredients together dry, until you have a fine powder like flour. Then press it with a (very) little moisture in a hydraulic press. It should end up as a hard puck. Break that up and then try it. Pressing improves the burning speed.
Again, read the black powder making thread I linked. All this information is in there, including how to optimize your ball mill and what kind of media to use in it.

And the number one recommendation I can make is this: don't listen to purveyors of misinformation (on this forum and elsewhere, on and off the web) who haven't done it and therefore don't know what they are talking about.

[Tracy]

Perotter, what about the phase change of ammonium nitrate? It probably gets warm enough where he is.

[AJG]

climate is about average 95 degrees Farenheit up to way over 110 degrees Farenheit. Urea is readily availlable as fertilizer.

[Tracy]

Nope, too hot for ammonium nitrate. Urea won't work either. Looks like you're gonna have to make your own potassium nitrate.

[victorfox]

Did this DIY powder been sieved to which granulation?

[perotter]

Perotter, what about the phase change of ammonium nitrate? It probably gets warm enough where he is.

The simplest way to take care of the phase change is to use 10% of another nitrate in the mix. Without looking up the exact range, it is good down to around -40 to 180F. Also the burn rate and ignition is better. In Olin's test and method, the linear burn rate increased from around 0.95 to 1.1.

Normally one uses KNO3 for this. As one would have the ammonium nitrate, converting that into KNO3 is simple. But then, this wouldn't be black powder anymore.

[AJG]

Does not matter how that is called as Long it is gun powder and WORKS.

I granulated the powder to powder with a Hand mortar (such as you can find in Southamerica for making yuyos or stamped herbs for drinking in tea).

[ofitg]

AJG, here is another thread which might interest you -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273725-homemade-gunpowder-questions-and-ideas

As Perotter hinted, some of these topics may not be appropriate for the Black Powder Cartridge forum....

[perotter]

AJG, here is another thread which might interest you -

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273725-homemade-gunpowder-questions-and-ideas

As Perotter hinted, some of these topics may not be appropriate for the Black Powder Cartridge forum....

No shortage of ways to skin the cat when it comes to DIY propellants. Comes down to safety, desired result, availability and time.

[Col4570]

I have a 32-40 martini Rifle,1 turn in 14 inches.I load with 3f BP,it takes exactly 40 grains with a 160 grain bullet.I would imagine that 30-30 would be near to my experience.Sorry can,t give Chrono figures but it is accurate enough.http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle003.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle003.jpg.html)

[Tracy]

Nice rifle, Col!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Don't worry about the proportions; 75:15:10 is just about right and deviating a bit makes little difference. I would start with the charcoal. Make it yourself in a retort (metal paint can works fine) of fast-growing wood. Not hardwood. Strip the bark off before you make the charcoal.

Ball mill all ingredients together dry, until you have a fine powder like flour. Then press it with a (very) little moisture in a hydraulic press. It should end up as a hard puck. Break that up and then try it. Pressing improves the burning speed.
Again, read the black powder making thread I linked. All this information is in there, including how to optimize your ball mill and what kind of media to use in it.

And the number one recommendation I can make is this: don't listen to purveyors of misinformation (on this forum and elsewhere, on and off the web) who haven't done it and therefore don't know what they are talking about.

This, down to the last paragraph, is good advice. I haven't made my own gunpowder, since schooldays in the 1960s anyway, but without speaking of this thread in particular, I sometimes feel I am not alone.

The main key to successful powdermaking is very, very fine powder for all the constituents - finer than you can buy them. I don't believe there is any risk of ignition if you ball-mill them very thoroughly while dry before mixing, although I suppose there is a slim possibility that that could happen with static electricity and airfloat charcoal, as sometimes happens in flour mills. I once worked in a Saudi university where the science department was stopped from showing students how to make the dreaded flour bomb in a cardboard box, so we are talking nothing like a gunpowder explosion here. I think a grounded copper wire trailing on the outside of a plastic mill drum would eliminate any such possibility.

Then lengthy milling after mixing the ingredients is required. This used to be done while slightly damp, but not so moist as to prevent the possibility of a very fierce ignition. I believe this was much reduced by the introduction of concave iron troughs in edge runner mills, rather than rollers, reducing the tendency for any to dry out on the edge of the floor, and the need for a human attendant to be around much of the time, shoving it back again.

The advantages of making the mixture into a soft paste were obvious, and yet good powder couldn't be made that way. It doesn't matter how wet you get the charcoal and sulphur, as they are insoluble in water. But if you dissolve part of your painstakingly milled saltpetre, it crystallises into much larger crystals when it dries out.

I believe the main purpose of that much slighter moistening (besides reducing flammability) was that it was just enough to coat each charcoal and sulphur particle with saltpetre. This is what binds the cake into a solid under pressure, ready to be broken into grains, rather than just fall apart again.

What I have not heard of being done, but find an interesting possibility, would be to use steam to produce that very slight moistening of the mixed powder. This picture is a derelict powder mill near my home. Note the flimsy roof and front wall, to be blown out without major damage if ignition did occur.

175053

[AJG]

i do not know. bp seems not to work for me (it may be me).

I will try to bring smokeless gun powder packaged in 12 ga shotshells. I contacted already Alliant Powders but they did not get back to me (I asked them if they can package 8 lbs Red Dot in 12 ga shothells, fill them completely, in order to be able to be shipped).
Thanks again Ballistics of Scottland for than idea and Information!

[victorfox]

AJG, can you import fireworks (cohetes etc) directly? If so, maybe you could get some filled with smokeless, I don't know, it's just another idea.

However, I just checked our Postal service, and fireworks aren't allowed to send/receive, it would probably the same in your place.

[AJG]

yes cohetes are plenty availlable here. Made in Brazil.
The Thing is one cohete (firecracker) costs me as Much as would be the equivalent in grain of the powder scavenged from 12 ga shotshells for reloading.

Example: 1 firecracker costs 1000 Pesetas (imaginable currency to hyde my location). From one firecracker I get 1 reload of metallic let us say9mm Luger or 357 Magnum and on top of that it is lesser Quality of powder (BP vs smokeless powder) and is prone to rust. I do not know how many grains of Black Powder one firecracker has but let us asume it gets just one reload. one reload costs me like this 1000 Pesetas.
On the other Hand a shotshell (12 ga) costs about 3000 Pesetas and from that I get 5 reloads of Quality smokeless powder. So one reload costs me like this 500 Pesetas and you get Quality powder and on top lead for free.

It is more economical for me scavenge 12 ga shotshells for powder and lead instead of dealing with scavenging firecrackers for Black Powder.

[victorfox]

No, you didn't get it. I was thinking if you could receive "cooked" fireworks, loaded with smokeless, for the sole purpose of receiving it in your place, if the ammo thing failed.

[AJG]

Ok, I understand.

yes I believe so.
You mean fill 'em full of smokeless powder and ship 'em to my place.

All of this is allways Trial and Error. I do not believe I could order it from abroad. But I have no idea.

How much reales is an Pound (lbs) of CBC smokeless powder there in Brazil?

[victorfox]

Yes, take all the bombs, powder, whatever is inside, fill with smokeless, close again and send.

Almost a pound (400 grams) would be about R$ 240 (about US$ 80), but as I told you, our postal service won't accept sending either black or smokeless, neither ammo or fireworks, sadly.

[perotter]

.....
I think a grounded copper wire trailing on the outside of a plastic mill drum would eliminate any such possibility.

.........

to coat each charcoal and sulphur particle with saltpetre.

........

What I have not heard of being done, but find an interesting possibility, would be to use steam to produce that very slight moistening of the mixed powder. ........

Just a couple of points.

Given the amounts BP that members here make it likely isn't of great matter of safety nor what you suggest likely going to be a potential problem, but one needs to be a little careful about having copper around making BP. With a moist mix over time one can end up having a primary explosive. Many experts think that is what caused the explosions of the old BP mills. They say that the primary created wasn't known back then. Merely a word of caution.

As for the coating, to add a bit of detail for those who a very new to making powder the inside particles of the charcoal are being coated also.

FWIW. About using steam, the state of the art 1860's BP plant that was in the CSA used steam. If memory serves, the entire mixing process was done under steam pressure. It's claimed that this was the best powder that the CSA had. I don't know how moist the mix was.

[AJG]

I understand the CSA (Confederated States of America) had a hard time to even make Black Powder (gather the ingredients for BP). As I read they scratched bird ****s in several Caves in Maryland, Virginia, Carolinas in order to get Saltpeter. Although it seems they never had a shortage of Black Powder as I now as did the Germans did in WW2 with fuel (they never had a sufficient supply of fuel) as did the Japanese (Pearl Harbor was accomplished while they had sufficient fuel and they wanted to destroy the US Navy before they run out of fuel).
Without These bird **** Caves the secession would not even had be able to start. I wonder were the CSA would have had such an state of the art BP plant since they almost did not have industries except Cotton gins.

2 of my molds have arrived. It seems like an wonder. National gun agency let it Import and I hope the other molds (9mm Luger and 38 spl) are arriving as well soon. Customs put an hefty Charge on it about the double of the Price so each mold costing in the US about 45 US$ costs here then 100 US$ (shipping and handling included. That is the endprice). Not that all bad.
I believe the 2 molds what arrived are the Lee #4 buckshot mold and the Lee 7/8 oz slug mold. At least with this I can fully modify my shotgun loads (birdshot is transformed into Buck&Ball, Buckshot or slug in a cheap way). That saves about 50% of the cost of an Buckshot vs birdshot.

[perotter]

.....
I wonder were the CSA would have had such an state of the art BP plant since they almost did not have industries except Cotton gins.......

I think it was in Augusta GA. Unsurprisingly there is a thread here about CSA powder.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?144472-History-of-the-Confederate-Powder-Works

[Malamute]

The 30-30 may work out for longer range black powder cartridge shooting, though you may need to wipe the barrel more than other calibers. If you could get a 38-55 it may help with black powder cartridge shooting. The actions on 94 Winchesters are basically interchangeable between 30-30 and 38-55, a proper barrel is the main requirement if you cant find a gun already configured the way you want.

I don't believe the 45-70 is the best of the older calibers for your purposes, the old 40 calibers of the Sharps rifles seem to do very well. In similar bullet weights, a 40 cal used about half the sight elevation as a 45-70 for 1000 yard shooting according to the user. That would be in single shot guns. The larger caliber black powder repeaters like the 1886 Winchester didn't have as much leeway for extra long cartridges or bullets (though definitely more room than the modern Marlin 1895, being based on their 30-30 action). The 40 cals originally made in the 1886 weren't designed for longer distance shooting, though it may be possible to adapt one of the 40 cals for that purpose.

I agree you may want to reconsider your distance ideas. Having known distance markers, like your fence, and other markers as someone mentioned, would help with first round hits if you have sighted in with various sight settings in practice at those distances/range markers. 500 yards isn't outrageous, but isn't exactly easy to get consistent results either.

Whit Spurzon shoots at distance with various old cartridges. Hes got a few videos on youtube of shooting at distance.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?89876-More-Fun-with-the-38-55

Best of luck with the powder issues, and in your shooting. Too bad ammunition is so expensive and controlled where you are.

I'm curious what is the issue is that requires adjustable stocks? Most of us get by with whats on the gun as made, or cutting them down or adding a pad for length as needed. Mostly they are close enough to work with. Having the requirement of an adjustable stock seems to limit the choices in guns, and the Mossberg wouldn't be on any of my lists for a rifle of known quality or reliability in any event. Parts and barrels are not likely to be very easily available.

[AJG]

I Need adjustable stock since my Trigger reach is about 10" so the Minimum of an Standard adjustable stock is rigth for me.

Even if ammo would be cheap here I prefer making my own ammo (reloading). New spanish 12 ga 1oz bird shot loads are about 0.5 US$ per round and that is ok for Scavenging shotshells for reloading.

Today I shot my homemade BP again with the Lee 7/8 oz drive key slug and it goes off but at 7 meters it makes at most a dent in an 0.5" soft Wood and 22lr like recoil which tells me there is no energy in the Black Powder (I filled the 12 ga shotshell right up full). With the 12 ga be that inexpensive I might just scavenge shotshells for powder and lead.

[Tracy]

Are you using the primers too? During the height of the ammo crunch I scavenged some cheap 12 gauge shells (which never became difficult to find, unlike most everything else) as an experiment. I saved the shot, used the powder in .38 Special and pushed out the primers to use in my H&R Huntsman .45 caliber muzzleloader. It is possible to drill out 7.62 x 54R (and probably other) rifle cases to accept shotgun primers if you keep pressures relatively low.

[AJG]

Tracy,

You have done during ammo shortage basically what I do for normal reloading: Scavenging 12 ga shotshells for powder and lead (leaving the wad, primer and hull untouched for later use).

That works not as bad is just one step more (pulling the shotshell apart).
The shotshell primers I leave untouched, stuff back the wad and the cut off crimp and store those empty hulls in it's original box for hopefully later use. Once I can have abundant smokeless powder or make sucessfull my Black Powder I am able to use those emptied shotshells for slugs. or may give them away to my workers who hunt with slugs wild small wild swine (pecari) and other deer like animals (example: capybara (Hydrochoerus hydrochaeris) which are here living wild).
Drilling and mnipulating live ammo or modifying the primer part of an metallic cartridge I do not want for safety reasons. Nor would I want to take out the live 209 shotshell primers since on of the WSP I bent a Little and it never got off (did not fire).

[AJG]

I am just glad I got my Lee 124 grain TC tumble lube 9mm Luger mold and the 7/8 oz Lee drive key slug since it is that much cheaper to shoot. I will have to make about 2500 bullets to pay for my reloading Equipment but like this I shoot way more as I used to. More molds are on the way but are quiet expensive since each one arrives her (all costs including) for about 125 US$.
Leading I can not detect more than normal. There is not lead coming out at all from the pistol or Revolver Barrel even I scrape it with an brass brush. Looks like the Texaco Marfak Lithium grease I use is working well for bullet lube. It is messy but as that I do not Need to "cook" anything and wasting time like that.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

i do not know. bp seems not to work for me (it may be me).

I will try to bring smokeless gun powder packaged in 12 ga shotshells. I contacted already Alliant Powders but they did not get back to me (I asked them if they can package 8 lbs Red Dot in 12 ga shothells, fill them completely, in order to be able to be shipped).
Thanks again Ballistics of Scottland for than idea and Information!

I don't think you would get any overseas company to participate in what amounts to smuggling, nor any private individual who isn't suffering severe mental impairment. There is a big difference in getting caught mistaking the rules, and getting caught in a deliberate deception.

[AJG]

I am not advocating smuggling. Smuggling is not an Option.

But law loopholes yes.
At least my FFL us based dealer told me gun powder is alowed locally but nobody wants to ship it.
Fully charged shotshells with powder may pass as ammunition. And ammo they will ship.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm not your supervisor, but it might be worth noting that it's not whether or not you consider it smuggling, but whether the regulating agencies do, and whether the companies you're asking to participate do.

[AJG]

Yes I agree.

That is however different from Country to Country.

In Southamerica the law is interpreted fairly relaxy.
It is a question of "Yes or No" from the shipping companies. At least FFL dealer registred in the US as well as here were I am located tell me the only issue is shipping. So they should know it. Normallt the FFL dealer is responding to the national gun agency and receives instructions directly from the governement so it is eighter yes or no.

[Ianagos]

I read the first page and saw some agree with activated charcoal but as far as I know and people who have tried it you will not get an acceptable black powder try a willow charcoal for best results.

[SSGOldfart]

Your asking for a lot from BP in any of the cases mentioned.

Depending on what your 30-30 platform is will make a big difference in what you can do with it . The NOE 314-230 might work very well with the 30-30 if you have enough twist . It will raise the BC dramatically. Based on my calculations a start velocity of 1550 would carry over 1000 ftlb just past 100 meters . (Strelok calculator ) my 30 WCF doesn't have enough twist to do this consistently.

With BP I think there is a reason for the straight wall cases . I think it has to do with the shock wave of the powder burn . This I expect would lead to bad things in 223 and 243 . The 30 WCF looks like a scaled down 45-70 by comparison.

If we all have a 48th ed Lyman book you can find that within its trap door working limits the 45-110 with an extra 10" of bbl will match the 458 WM with the 405 JSP. I think chasing 1000 metres with BP in less than something on par case wise with the 40-65 and up is going to be less than satisfactory.
Well the 38-55,and the 45-70are both goodlong range calibers
My attempts with Black Powder in a 308 didn't fair to well,plus lots of clean up was necessary to keep shooting.:violin: