Tight Ball and Patch

[jjarrell]

I have a question. To preface let me say I've heard many talk about a hunting load for patch and ball that can be started with thumb pressure. I have NEVER used a patch and ball that was that easy to start. There has to be blow by around the ball. I have always used the short nipple of the starter to get in in the bore. Then the short 6" portion of the starter to take it a little further down the bore. Then the ram rod for the rest of the way. Now to the question. Can any of you start a ball with thumb pressure? In my .54 I use a .535 ball and .020 linen patch with 90gr of Olde Eynsford and get 1" groups at 50 yards from a 36" barrel. A .530 ball with the same patch and charge delivers almost as tight a group, with no noticeable difference in loading. A little easier but not much. With that said. People talk about a fast follow up shot. First. I don't shoot anticipating a follow up shot. I know mistakes happen and everyone is human so it's a possibility. But when I fire, I do so full well believing I know exactly where the ball is going before the hammer drops. I take pride in that. Second. Even if I miss clean, I've NEVER had a deer stand there and wait for me to reload a front stuffer. They are making tracks leaving the country. I guess I've never been in that much of a rush when I hunt with black powder. I keep my booger hook off the bang switch till its time.

[mooman76]

Personally I have never tried with my thumb. I don't usually shoot a real tight patched ball and can usually start without the shorts starter and straight to the ramrod. I still use the short starter anyway but that's with my slow paced target shooting. The ball still shoots very good but that also is with light loads. I also think getting a second shot, no matter how fast you reload is slim to nun.

[jjarrell]

Ive never needed a mallet to start a ball and patch, so I don't guess they are super tight in my bore. I do need to give it a good whack with the palm of my hand but nothing extreme. I don't have to beat on the ball. Once they are in, they load very smoothly with a steady push down the bore with mink oil as a patch lube. I guess my thing is this. If I fire while hunting, of course I reload. I'm just not capable of reloading quickly enough to get another shot before it's gone. I've never had one take a round ball and wait around. They have either dropped right there or took flight with a pass through. I just wondered if anyone uses a loose patch/ball combo to facilitate faster reloading in the field under hunting conditions, and if so do they achieve the same accuracy?

[RU shooter]

Maybe if the muzzle was coned like was the practice waaaaay back when that would be able to be done but even with a .010 patch I've never been able to thumb start a ball in any rifle I've shot . That said as others have said a second shot at game is pretty much a moot point so having not to short start is also moot .

[triggerhappy243]

My patch/ball combo requires stout effort to get started, and I say uuhh while getting it started. I doubt a loose fit combo would have any accuracy.

[dromia]

Back in the day men were real men and seating a tight patched ball was a nothing to their tough fingers, in fact I've been told they just used to seat the patch and ball by blowing it down the barrel

[jjarrell]

LOL. Dromia that made me chuckle.

[rfd]

this topic comes up at least a few times a year. most folks might find an increase in overall accuracy from employing a tightly patched ball. it will take a bit of experimenting of both patch thickness and ball diameter (and maybe powder, too) to see what works best. it will always require a short starter and sometimes even a hammer to get the patched ball both down the tube and seated well on the powder. if this is yer cup of tea, have at it. not for me. i thumb seat patched balls that i push down past the muzzle with a patch knife handle and then cut off the excess patching, no short starter or hammer or range rod needed, i almost never wipe the bore, and my collective guns' accuracy are better than my old eyes. enjoy and ymmv.

[Good Cheer]

The rifling pattern does much control what is going to work.
Some need a tight patch, such as with narrow lands or with very shallow grooves.
And sometimes narrow lands work well with looser patched ball if you are shooting relatively lower powered loads.

[smilie=s:
Whatever works is what works.

[rfd]

whence seeking some kinda ml "optimization" or improved accuracy, it will ALWAYS come down to personal testing experimentation! wheeee! [smilie=p:

[Buckshot Bill]

I use a short starter because I have never gotten acceptable accuracy from a B/P combo I can just shove in the muzzle with my finger. That said I have also started balls with the handle of a patch knife, or some other solid object to get it in the mouth of the muzzle, after that I can usually ram them home with the rod without needing to use the 6" section on a ball starter. Most of the time I just use a ball starter because it's purpose made for the job unless I manage to forget it at home.

[jjarrell]

I prefer a tighter p/b combo. It just seems to shoot better. I have no need for a combo that has to be started with a mallet. Seems like a PITA, not to mention I'd end up starting my thumb down the bore with the mallet......lol. Some like it, I don't, I've tried it. A whack on the starter with my palm is all I need to get it going. Then I use the 6" section mostly because its there and that's just how I've done it for 30 or so years. I could load without using the 6" section, I just don't. Its mostly habit I suppose.

[waksupi]

I start mine with my fingers, but I have big hands, with quite a bit of strength in them. Some others can't load my rifles, as it does take a rather determined push.
Take a load that requires a short starter, and one that doesn't. Shoot for group at a given distance from a benchrest with both loading methods. The tighter load will probably group a bit better.
Then, stand on your hind legs, and shoot groups again off hand with both combinations. I'll bet you don't see any difference.
In our group, I can't think of any old timers that use short starters.

[johnson1942]

i wish i was like you and your group. never could get good groups unless i used pure linen and a tight roundball and tapped it just below the surface of the muzzle and cut it off with a razor. got tack driving groups that way, often thought maybe the deep deep grooves was the way to go but never tried them. i envy you guys who shoot good that way. however if i can get a little extra cash soon im going to reline a barrel with just that kind of set up. real deep grooves and then ill give your way a try.

[rfd]

... Then, stand on your hind legs, and shoot groups again off hand with both combinations. I'll bet you don't see any difference. ...

and therein lies the big difference 'tween range bench shooters and woods walkers/hunters. :)

[johnson1942]

dont know what that ment, dropping a deer with a round ball at 175 yards and 125 yards may qualify me a little bit more than a bench shooter. was a fence post to rest on a disqualification? i did that with one of them and sorry, my knees on the other.

[rfd]

during a woods walk, and in at least some, or maybe more than some hunting situations, yer long gun is supported by yer legs and resting in yer hands.

[johnson1942]

yer a better man than i. come to think of it i did that once. qualified with a perfect 50 round score with the US Marines with a handgun. all 50 in the black and rested on nothing. forgot about that one, got my man hood back.

[rfd]

yer a better man than i. come to think of it i did that once. qualified with a perfect 50 round score with the US Marines with a handgun. all 50 in the black and rested on nothing. forgot about that one, got my man hood back.

way to go, SO happy for you!

[Omnivore]

The answer is; whatever works for you and your rifle.

I've taken a follow-up shot on deer on three occasions. In all cases the deer had received a killing shot, but just hadn't died yet, and was not ambulatory. Since you may not know for sure how good your first shot was, taking that second shot will seal the deal. In no case was there a need for a fast reload, and so I don't see reloading speed as an issue here. Also I carry a ML season legal BP handgun, which would provide a very fast second shot within its effective range, but have never needed it.

By the way; you should be testing your groups at 100 yards, first off of a bench and then standing unsupported, and do your practice both unsupported and kneeling (you’ll not likely ever get a shot from prone if there’s any underbrush) and other improvised positions. You don’t often get to bring your shooting bench with you on a hunt. 50 yards is for pistol and for new rifle shooters.

My hunting load is a pretty tight fit patched ball. I always carry a short starter, but there's no need for a mallet. In a pinch I could use only the ram rod, but it'd be a pain. It works well enough out to 100 yards that I haven’t experimented much after finding this load. I would rarely be presented with a shot of over 100 yards where I hunt, but for some people 100 yards is a very close shot, and they use conicals for retained energy out to 250 or more.

I shoot a deer and the first thing I do, after taking a mental read on where the deer was standing at the moment it was hit, is to reload. Doesn't matter if the animal went straight to the ground, twitched and then went still; I'm going to have a second shot ready. Last season's deer went straight down. Sweet! and then it sort of got up and started moving again. Not so sweet. All sorts of crazy things will happen out there if you do it over enough years. So I'm reloading, while out of the corner of my eye I see the deer moving on its two front legs. It wasn't going far, and it would have died shortly, but you only know that for sure after it's dead and you've had a chance to inspect the initial wound. A second shot to the head at about fifteen yards put it right down. After retrieving the carcass, I learned that the first shot had gone high and grazed the spine (the distance corresponded closely with the rifle's "midrange" trajectory high point, and I hadn't figured on that). That's what put it down; a central nervous system hit (Zap!) but it wasn't an instant kill either.

Just don't forget to unload that second shot in the event you don't use it. Then clean the rifle.

[rfd]

the good thing about most things in life is their subjectivity that allows more than one good way to skin a cat ... or deer or hog, etc.

and yep, it always comes down to personal preferences, and that's a real good thing indeed!

[jjarrell]

I cant tell much of a difference in a .530 and a .535 ball in my .54 cal. Both will hold a 1" to 1 1/4" group at 50 yards over 90gr of Olde Eynsford 3F. I use the .535 ball (mostly because it's a few grains heavier) with a .020" linen patch and mink oil patch lube. To me my rifle loads fairly easily. A sharp whack with the short starter to get it in the bore, then push it the rest of the way down with the ram rod. I love how a Joe Williams barrel loads. Don't get me wrong, it's a very tight patch and ball combo. But once the ball is started and engraved by the rifling, it loads as smooth as silk. Slicker n greased owl #@$*

[rfd]

... Slicker n greased owl #@$*

too funny! :lol:

[dondiego]

Greased eel poop is slicker! There's too much mouse hair in owl poo.

[jjarrell]

Greased eel poop is slicker! There's too much mouse hair in owl poo.
You didn't hear?! Mouse oil (mouse oil is what makes owl #%*$ so slick) is supposed to turn the muzzleloading industry upside down. It's going to be the patch lube to beat all patch lubes. It leaves No fouling, smells like steak and baked taters, turns all powder residue to non-corrosive, reduces round ball drop to 3" at 200 yards, increases velocities by 350 fps, and makes any rifle shoot under 1" groups at 100 yards, no matter the load, caliber, or projectile! They are gonna call it Slowpoke Rodriguez's Ball Love. :kidding:

[fiberoptik]

yer a better man than i. come to think of it i did that once. qualified with a perfect 50 round score with the US Marines with a handgun. all 50 in the black and rested on nothing. forgot about that one, got my man hood back.

I shot 243 out of 250 in a typhoon in Okinawa; 60 mph winds!


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[fiberoptik]

Shot a old doe left handed from up a tree with a right hand thumbhole stock. Tight patched pb.


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[Old Iron]

I have a question. To preface let me say I've heard many talk about a hunting load for patch and ball that can be started with thumb pressure. I have NEVER used a patch and ball that was that easy to start. There has to be blow by around the ball. I have always used the short nipple of the starter to get in in the bore. Then the short 6" portion of the starter to take it a little further down the bore. Then the ram rod for the rest of the way. Now to the question. Can any of you start a ball with thumb pressure? In my .54 I use a .535 ball and .020 linen patch with 90gr of Olde Eynsford and get 1" groups at 50 yards from a 36" barrel. A .530 ball with the same patch and charge delivers almost as tight a group, with no noticeable difference in loading. A little easier but not much. With that said. People talk about a fast follow up shot. First. I don't shoot anticipating a follow up shot. I know mistakes happen and everyone is human so it's a possibility. But when I fire, I do so full well believing I know exactly where the ball is going before the hammer drops. I take pride in that. Second. Even if I miss clean, I've NEVER had a deer stand there and wait for me to reload a front stuffer. They are making tracks leaving the country. I guess I've never been in that much of a rush when I hunt with black powder. I keep my booger hook off the bang switch till its time.
You'll never know if you're getting "blow-by" (or not) until you retrieve some of your fired patches and look them over.
With a good "patch-ball and powder-charge combo" you should be able to pick up and re-use your fired patches.

[jjarrell]

You'll never know if you're getting "blow-by" (or not) until you retrieve some of your fired patches and look them over.
With a good "patch-ball and powder-charge combo" you should be able to pick up and re-use your fired patches.

My patches look fine..........no holes or tears. Just a powder ring. I wasn't asking because I wanted to change anything. My rifle shoots an inch or less at 50 yards consistently. I asked because I was curious if people actually used a patch and ball combo that was loose enough to start in the bore with thumb pressure. And if so, does it shoot consistently. I wouldn't think it would be that accurate but I'm sure someone has found the magic trick to make it shoot well.

[waksupi]

My patches look fine..........no holes or tears. Just a powder ring. I wasn't asking because I wanted to change anything. My rifle shoots an inch or less at 50 yards consistently. I asked because I was curious if people actually used a patch and ball combo that was loose enough to start in the bore with thumb pressure. And if so, does it shoot consistently. I wouldn't think it would be that accurate but I'm sure someone has found the magic trick to make it shoot well.

Works for me. I've won three smoothbore world championships loading like that, and have good repeated accuracy with my rifles. As I've said before though, I do have strong hands, and whereas I can start the balls, many couldn't load my guns with out a short starter.

[jjarrell]

Works for me. I've won three smoothbore world championships loading like that, and have good repeated accuracy with my rifles. As I've said before though, I do have strong hands, and whereas I can start the balls, many couldn't load my guns with out a short starter.

The proof is in the pudding! If it works. it works.............you'll get no argument from me.

[Hanshi]

If one hunts/shoots a muzzleloader, there is nothing to recommend a "fast second shot" and very much to discourage it. Of course if you're a reenactor and shooting a musket, well, they were trained for fast reloading; but that is an exception and a potentially dangerous one. If one wants a fast second shot one should carry a modern rifle or, if indeed hunting with a muzzleloader, carry a pistol of that caliber. Hunting with a muzzleloader is a one-shot-deal; let's face it. In all my years I've never, never needed a "fast second shot" on anything. The idea is that you either make a killing shot or you miss. If you wound, well, that's your best shot, anyway and a bit of tracking could be order, or not.

Around 1" at 50 yards is great accuracy for hunting, trail walks, etc. I seldom achieve that nowadays. As for tight loads, that's the only way to go, IMHO. I get better accuracy, higher velocity and easy loading although I use a short starter. In my .45 I shoot a .440" ball - a .445" does just as well - and patch with a .022" to .024" patch with the first shot of the day lubed with Mink Oil. Muzzleloading has no place for "fast; after all, you don't have Redcoats to contend with.

[dondiego]

I think that fast is used in a different time scale when referring to ML's. Certainly not to be confused with a fast follow up shot say, as with a semiauto deer rifle .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Most rifles and loads will benefit from having it a tight fit, but if it is very tight, a few shots' worth of fouling will turn it into very, very tight - and you use the ramrod for a lot more inches than you do the ball starter. When I had a Kentucky rifle I found that about as firm pressure as I could conveniently apply with a wooden ramrod was fine.

The Rifle Brigade, who on French figures accounted for 500 French officers and 8 generals in five bad weeks in Spain, used the ramrod when the Baker rifle was clean, a mallet when it was heavily fouled, and carried a few undersized balls in case of being caught in a tight corner. A couple of those if you have the mould for it, or with much thinner patching, might be handy in case you need a followup shot on deer. Those regiments, although their functional distinctiveness has been much eroded, still refer to line regiments as "red".

[waksupi]

If one hunts/shoots a muzzleloader, there is nothing to recommend a "fast second shot" and very much to discourage it. Of course if you're a reenactor and shooting a musket, well, they were trained for fast reloading; but that is an exception and a potentially dangerous one. If one wants a fast second shot one should carry a modern rifle or, if indeed hunting with a muzzleloader, carry a pistol of that caliber. Hunting with a muzzleloader is a one-shot-deal; let's face it. In all my years I've never, never needed a "fast second shot" on anything. The idea is that you either make a killing shot or you miss. If you wound, well, that's your best shot, anyway and a bit of tracking could be order, or not.

Around 1" at 50 yards is great accuracy for hunting, trail walks, etc. I seldom achieve that nowadays. As for tight loads, that's the only way to go, IMHO. I get better accuracy, higher velocity and easy loading although I use a short starter. In my .45 I shoot a .440" ball - a .445" does just as well - and patch with a .022" to .024" patch with the first shot of the day lubed with Mink Oil. Muzzleloading has no place for "fast; after all, you don't have Redcoats to contend with.

I'm around #4 position on the food chain in this area. Good enough reason, when critters think a shot is a dinner bell!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Works for me. I've won three smoothbore world championships loading like that, and have good repeated accuracy with my rifles. As I've said before though, I do have strong hands, and whereas I can start the balls, many couldn't load my guns with out a short starter.

You speak with just authority, but rifling does complicate matters.

For me it wouldn't so much be strength, as hurting the hand. A thick leather device, a bit like a saddler's palm, might be less easy to lose or rattled than a ball starter.

Personally I have never shot any large game with a muzzle-loader, but my answer to the problem of a followup shot is to have a second gun stuck onto the first one.

175987

[OnHoPr]

I'm around #4 position on the food chain in this area. Good enough reason, when critters think a shot is a dinner bell!

Oh, Yogi won't bother you unless you have a picnic basket. Just keep a piece of chocolate in the picnic basket if Kitty shows up. I can't think of the other two above those, but just have something in the picnic basket for them as well.

[montana_charlie]

175987
I like that ebony(?) pistol grip.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I like that ebony(?) pistol grip.

No, it's horn, in the traditional style of the Germanic nations, and much less prone to cracking than ebony that age. I've worked with ebony, and wouldn't risk that shape new. The gun is by Kehlner Neveu of Prague - i.e. the nephew of the better-known Kehlner, but I think he advanced the standard. I bought the gun as a 14ga shotgun, incorrectly described as 10ga., and discovered a single set trigger for the right barrel (having that in both could be nasty) and the knob to screw into the ramrod as its own ball starter. That was what convinced me it was built as a rifle and demoted, so I sleeved it with liners made for the .50 Springfield round.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Oh, Yogi won't bother you unless you have a picnic basket. Just keep a piece of chocolate in the picnic basket if Kitty shows up. I can't think of the other two above those, but just have something in the picnic basket for them as well.

Jim Corbett the hunter of maneaters, who killed several which had eaten their hundreds, claimed that the tiger was a gentleman (or in the link below a lady), and quite inoffensive unless surprised with prey or young. The bear, though, is probably a whole lot smarter than a tiger. I would trust a well tamed one, which doesn't mean forced into circus tricks, but I think one in the wild could do anything. Polar bears certainly will. On Spitzbergen the Danes don't just allow guns, but only allow you to live there if you have one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36605503

[montana_charlie]

I like that ebony(?) pistol grip.No, it's horn.
Horn, bone, antler, ebony, or anything else suitable for being worked by hand ... I admire add-on pistol grips.

I made one for my Sharps out of scrap walnut.