New to GCs - problems with my 30-30 and seating the GC - help/advice?

[bedbugbilly]

I'm new to gas checks and am having a problem that there has to be a solution to . .

Background - I'm using a Winchester Model 94 30-30 "Ranger". Buying 1 X fired brass. I'm using cast boolits.

I haven't had a lot of time to cast so bought some 118 gr plain base boolits off of a guy to get started. They were sized .309. I'm not loading those "hot" but want to get a load worked out to be similar to the old small game loads - having fun and the rifle is shooting fine with them - no leading - working my load up using Red Dot (because I have an 8 pound jug) and am gradually raising my POI as opposed to POA.

Now for my gas checks . . . I have a Lyman double cavity 311-41 that lists as casting a 173 grain gas check. I cast up about 400 today. I'm not a "high tech" caster . . been using a Lyman bottom pour dipper and a propane hot plate for 50 + years. For my pistol and 8mms, etc. - I buy "range lead" and it has always worked fine. Today . . the casting went easy and the boolits turned out very nice - full fill, etc. While I never load "max" or "hot" . . . I would like to see what these will do out of the carbine but not end up with a lot of leading - thus I'm wanting to gas check to try it and to get experience with gas checking.

Since my plain base boots work fine at .309 out of my Winnie Ranger . . . I was going to gas check a few and then start to work up a load. I use Lee push through dies. I have a .309 and a .311. I put some boolits in a tupperware bowl, swirled them in some paste wax to lube them for the sizer. I put them through the .311 first - just the bare cast boolit - base going through first and pushing on the flat nose. Then I went to slide on my Hornady gas checks and I find that the gas check base is enough oversize or out of round (we know not all molds cast perfectly round). The base is just enough oversize that the gas check cannot be seated with the thumb so the bottom of the gas check sits tight to the bottom of the boolit. A couple I put through the sizer were obviously not seated all the way down as they come out with the gas check tight on the boolit . . but it was not square with the boolit . . . i.e. it was canted.

It appears that the gas check base of my boolits is just enough oversize or out of round that the gas check will not go over it easily. So . . . .

Is there a trick to getting them over a fat base and get them to sit tight to the base so it can be put through the sizer? Or . . . should I be looking at another mold? I purchased this one off of flea-bay and I'm wondering it that is why it was being sold? I'm not adverse to ordering a Lee gas check in a similar weight and a FN with a GC base to use in the Winchester. But . . . do the Lees cast so that the gas check can be put on with thumb pressure and then run through the push through sizer to crimp it on and size the boolit and the check.

If these boolits aren't going to work, I can always shoot them up as plain base boolits so that's not a real issue. But I could sure use some help/advice to get this problem taken care or get my "thinking cap " on straight in regards to it.

Also . . just out of curiosity. If a boolit such as what I'm talking about has a gas check that is tight but not sitting square . . and it is loaded and used . . . does the gas check sitting crooked have any real effect on the accuracy or will it throw it "catty wampus" as it speeds down range?

Thanks for any help or advice - greatly appreciated.

[MT Chambers]

Noe sells an excellent tool set to seat gas checks square with your press, along with it get the piece that slightly swages the boolit's base allowing you to start the GC right. It uses std. Lyman top punches.

[PoisonIvyMagnet]

You may want to try using some different gas checks. I had the same problem when I started casting boolits from a new NOE mold I picked up for 30 cal. The gas checks I had ordered just would not slip over the base, and were crooked when forcing them in place. Go look up VulcanChecks.com. You can get trial packs of various sizes of gas checks for less than $2, and shipped free. Helped me find something that fit without spending a lot of money.
Also, NOE sells a gas check seating die that helps press checks onto boolits easier. You just need to order a top punch to fit the profile of your boolit's nose (I ended up getting a couple Lyman punches that were made for flat nose 30 cal boolits, work just fine). The checks seat squarely, and crimp on firmly after you run them through a sizing die.

Sent from my KFFOWI using Swift Reader

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Answering your last question first.
YES, a boolit with a canted GC or most any other base imperfection will be effected the micro-second it leaves the muzzle, much like a barrel crown imperfection.

Next, have you tried to install a GC, before you size your boolit ?
even if the .311 die doesn't do much, the range scrap alloy your using could be soft enough to have the base of the boolit mushroom slightly during the first sizing. In fact, this is a trick to help loose fitting GCs to fit better.

OK, if you still have an issue, we have a couple of vendors here that offer GC made of different thickness materials...a slightly thinner material should help your oversize shank situation.

Just another little thing, I've found Lee 30 cal molds have a slightly undersized GC shank....for a loose fitting GC

sagebrush7 is a vendor who I've dealt with
http://www.sagesoutdoors.com/
========

[Yodogsandman]

If you want to use the gas checks that you have, expand them a little. I've used the Lee universal neck expander spud (LG) for .30 cal. GC's and tapped the checks with a hammer to slightly expand them.

[GhostHawk]

I am pretty much in agreement with all the above.

I have in the past had gas checks that were snug that did not always want to seat flat.

A small rubber hammer tap with the bullet sitting on the gas checks left everything sitting square and solid.

I did mount a lee C type press upside down just for doing gas checks. Gravity working for you instead of against you makes a difference.

And I would install the gas check before any sizing operation. Just removes one possible variable.

Good luck!

[Dale53]

Lyman makes a gas check seater that works well with both the Lyman lube/sizer and the RCBS lube/sizer:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/gas-check-seater.php

Be sure and check out the video link on that page. It will show you exactly how you seat the checks. Basically, you use the tool, properly seat all of your checks, then remove the tool from the lube/sizer and size and lube the bullets normally.

FWIW
Dale53

[HiVelocity]

Try checking them backwards, base/check first. I this doesn't work, try a variety of gas checks.

I found aluminum Vulcan gaschecks on Facebook; worked great on my 311041 cast. Priced right too.

HV

[bedbugbilly]

Well. . . . I have had the opportunity to "play" a little more so am reporting back.

First . . . thanks for all of the suggestions - they are greatly appreciated.

I want to mention that I am using Lee push through sizers . . . I do not have a Lyman or RCBS lube sizer.

Now . . for my double cavity Lyman 31141 mold. I cast up about 400 of these boolits out of my normal "range lead" that I use . . . i.e. the alloy is not always the same from batch to batch but it does seem to be pretty close.
At first, I tried tapping the gas check on . . . not a lot of success. I tried tapping them on and running them through the Lee .311 sizer, base first and then the .309 sizer, base first. Still not real successful. So . . .

In looking at the sticky at the top of this forum, it shows that the Hornady 30 cal. copper gas check has an inside diameter (shown as "Dim. B") of .283 - 000/+003. So, using those dimensions, I can assume the inside diameter of the GC could range from .283 to .286. Unfortunately, the GC shank of my cast boolits are measuring any where from 287 to 290!

Now we all know, all Lyman molds are "not created equal". I'm not bad mouth Lyman or Ideal molds . . I own quite a few of them and have been using them for over 50 years to cast with. What I am saying is that I believe the "particular Lyman 31141 double cavity" that I own is not quit up to snuff. Taking careful measurements of the boolits I cast, I find that one cavity (out of this particular batch of "range lead") is dropping them at .3095 to 310 and the other is dropping them at .311 to .3115. Not a big issue as I am sizing to .309 for my particular rifle. But, it does create a problem in regards to the gas check shanks. It's like trying to fit a size 7 high heel shoe on a gorgeous babe who has size 10 feet! LOL :-)

Thus, my seating problems is a result of my boolits and how they are dropping out of this particular mold.

On the opposite end of the spectrum . . . I bought a double cavity mold from Al at NOE that has one plain base and one gas check base cavity to cast a RNFP that drops at around 115 grains to use for developing a load similar to the old 30-30 small game loads. My GC boolits from that mold work perfect with the Hornady .30 gas checks. I cast up 50 of each on Sunday just to get started on some load workups and I gas checked them tonight with the Lee push through sizer. It couldn't have worked any better! They cam out perfect.

So . . I am going to try the boolits I cast up from the 31141 that are out of spec without the gas check and see how they shoot. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. IF . . they shoot halfway decent, then I will probably alter the mold to cast plain base boolits. Shouldn't be a big job and since it doesn't cast well for GC, nothing ventured nothing gained.

Then . . . and I'm learning this lesson slowly . . . I will order a mold from one of the custom makers like NOE, Accurate, etc. to get a "GOOD" mold in a configuration similar to the 31141 that will produce a good GC boolit to play with. I bought this particular 31141 off of flea-bay to give it a try. Over the last 50 years, I've purchased quite a few used Ideal/Lyman molds as well as other brands and for the most part, have had good success with them. Just like a bushel of apples, every once in a while you find one with a worm. I'm thinking that the way this mold casts just might be the reason it was up for sale. But, not complaining as it's a learning experience and I'm enjoying the project. It's a good way to get in to gas checking and broaden the horizons a little! LOL

Many thanks for the kind response and suggestions . . . they are all greatly appreciated!

Jim

[w30wcf]

BBB,
I have a number of Lyman molds (older ones) and the gas check shank diameters are aok with one exception where the g.c. shank dia. is pretty much the same as yours.

To use the Hornady's on that bullet I had a small punch made that opened up the mouth of the g.c. just enough so that it would slide on the oversized shank aok.

One thing you could try is annealing the g.c. with a torch to make them a bit more elastic. You could then try pre seating them in your press by setting the bullet off center on the ram and placing the bullet nose against the bottom edge of the Lee sizing die and apply a bit of pressure.

w30wcf

[robg]

I use one push through sizer with the pusher bit in the hole ,then use the pusher peice from another sized to push on tight gas checks using the press to squeeze them straight.

[vrh]

Vulcancheck

[Retumbo]

For those tough GC I made a jig where the GC goes in the bottom and the bullet in the top, then as others have said a small wrap with a soft faced hammer

[Nose Dive]

Did you soften COPPER Gas Checks before installing? this helps soften the mistakes I often make from smelt to range...

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[Bama]

Retumbo has a good idea, I have been using this style home made seater and can seat same checks on unpowder coated or powder coated bullets with no problems. It also flattens out any little burs where the spru was cut.