Handgun accuracy issues most likely related to operator error

[Strtspdlx]

I've had my smith and Wesson m&p full size for almost a year now. I'd imagine I have well over 800 rounds through it with the majority being jacketed. From day one I've had accuracy issues at any distance that I won't necessarily fault the firearm for. As I'm a newer pistol shooter I would imagine in the most likely culprit. I was curious to see what everyone's thoughts are on most commonly seen problems with new shooters that would cause accuracy issues. I have a friend who has been trying to help me with shooting. As of now I've tried shooting on a bag. I've tried trigger finger placement and better trigger pull technique. I always have a problem shooting left and high. I've tried not manhandling the gun or being too tense. I've tried different grips with my hands and different back straps on the firearm. I really doubt it's the gun and more me. I used to primarily shoot 230gn jacketed ball. I now shoot 185gn cast swc and it's the most accurate at 20yd with about a 6" pattern. I'm going to try to make it to the range this weekend so I'd like to try out some other stuff I may not know of or may have forgotten.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The grand old men of hand gunning told us to start with a .22, move up to a 38 and the on to a .45. They told us a good trigger pull was essential and to shoot groups at specific distances with progressively larger calibers.

The M&P has a trigger that makes it difficult to shoot well when trying to focus on a sight picture.

[Paper Puncher]

Take a look at a handgun pattern chart like this one. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf

A real good technique is to have someone load a few dummy rounds in the magazine so you don't know when they are chambered. When you pull the trigger and all that happens is it goes click you will see any bad habits your developing.

[Joe K]

I agree with paper puncher, the dummy rounds will let you know how you are moving when squeezing the trigger. Also it may help to move closer. Start at 7 yards and work farther. I don't have an m&p and can not comment how they shoot. I like taking a 22 to the range while my friends have their 357 or 44 then let them shoot the 22. It is entertaining how much they anticipate the recoil. Although guilty myself.

[Lagamor]

It sounds like your getting solid advise. It can take awhile to develop a steady grip and good straight trigger pull. Don't give up, it comes with practice.
That being said a lighter trigger and better sights can help an awful lot.

[GhostHawk]

Go to Youtube, look up this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/user/CenterMassGroup

His advice about FOCUS on front sight instead of looking is making a huge difference to me.

Next, if the round consistently hits left, adjust sights to hit center. Same for elevation.
Would you hunt with a rifle that always hit a foot left and a foot high at 100 yards? No, you center the sights so the group is centered on the bull.

Last, I would recomend that you buy, make some snap caps and practice dry fire.

Start SLOW, draw, bring up to your chest, set grip, push out, keeping your strongest eye firmly on front sight push out. If you lose it, pull back and try again. Repeating an action, slowly, exactly sets up a sort of pathway. But you want that path to be smooth, so walk it slowly, watch for pitfalls.

He has some great advice for pistol shooters. Take it and him seriously.

You can do it, just take it one step at a time. Slow and steady.

I also agree about .22lr being a great place to start with its low recoil and noise.

I can consistently put 10 from my Ruger Mk III 22/45 into a golfball sized group at 20 feet. Often less.
I can normally put 8 from my 9mm into a coffee cup sized group.
My 1911 in .45acp runs about the same but it takes more concentration to do it.
My CZ-52 in 7.62x25 has the biggest groups of all. It isn't recoil, its bark. That puppy just plain barks.

All of those guns can shoot way better than I can hold. The weak link is the shooter.

Focus helps. I sort of discovered a trick while doing dry fire practice this week. I can use my right eye on the front sight. My left on the rear sight. At the same time, with practice. So both are sharp, crisp, clear.

Target is a little fuzzy but you really don't need to see the target well. Just where it is at.
Now get into a real gunfight and that will likely change. Off eye will have to forget rear sight and watch target. But by then the idea is to have near perfect automatic sight alignment, muscle memory and neural paths built and solid.

[Scharfschuetze]

Practice is great, but you must NOT practice what is making your shots wonder off from your point of aim. Bad habits are easy to reinforce, but hard to break.

The old Army eight steady hold factors that the Army rifle team beat into me apply just as well to revolvers and pistols.

1. Stance: Balanced with skeletal support and relaxed musculature if possible. A good rested or supported position will enhance you stance and reduce your natural wobble area. Shoot within your wobble area and don't try and "ambush" the target by jerking the trigger as your front sight wonders by it.
2. Grip: Hand shake firm, but light enough not to induce shaking. Pistol is held so that it recoils down your radial and ulnar forearm bones.
3. Trigger pull: straight back through the weapon without drag on either side. Stage your trigger (for DA shooting) if that suits you or pull evenly through if that is best for you and your handgun.
4. Sight alignment: Focus on the front sight. You should know it intimately and it should be centered in the rear sight. Relax your eye between shots as you breathe to maintain sharp vision.
5. Sight picture: Place your well aligned sights (#4 above) over the intended point of impact. Front sight clear, target and rear sight a bit fuzzy.
6. Breath control: You need lots of oxygen in your blood, but you want to hold your breath when letting the shot off. Breathe between shots for good concentration, eye sight and relaxed muscles.
7. Follow through: Let the gun move itself. You don't move or recover until the recoil is complete.
8. Call the shot: You should be able to tell if the shot is high, low, wide, etc before you actually check your target.

All of the above for each and every shot. It'll all work out.

Dry fire religiously until you have the muscle memory to keep the weapon steady after the hammer or striker falls. While dry firing, take all the above eight steps and repeat them until they are reflexive and and habitual.

With an accurate handgun and ammo, you can shoot a handgun accurately out to a couple of hundred yards, but you'll really need to follow the above steps to do it consistently, either at close range or long range.

I might also suggest to have a known good handgun shot shoot your pistol and ammo for you and see what he thinks. Sometimes a weapon just doesn't shoot well. I've had a few like that and they no longer reside in my safe.

[243winxb]

This-
4. Sight alignment: Focus on the front sight. http://www.bullseyepistol.com

[mcdaniel.mac]

Can I recommend "dot drills" as a tool? Grab a roll of 1" pasties, start at 10ft, and slow-fire a maagzine into a pasty. Any round that does not go into you pasty, you stop, reload, put up a new pasty, and start again. When you get an entire magazine, either move it back, or put up a time limit, starting with 2 seconds per shot. Every time you make an entire maagzine, you either change distance or shoot faster. It's good practice

[DerekP Houston]

Take a look at a handgun pattern chart like this one. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pistol_Shot_Analysis.pdf

A real good technique is to have someone load a few dummy rounds in the magazine so you don't know when they are chambered. When you pull the trigger and all that happens is it goes click you will see any bad habits your developing.

I have used both that target and the dummy round techniques...they do indeed show you when you are anticipating the shot. (at least for me). If you always use a set # of rounds in your magazine try changing it up. When it goes click instead of bang and your hands still move, you've found the issue (I did it!). For wheel guns it works the same, I load 5 live and 1 dead, rotate the cylinder and see how I do.

[cainttype]

Practice is great, but you must NOT practice what is making your shots wonder off from your point of aim. Bad habits are easy to reinforce, but hard to break.

The old Army eight steady hold factors that the Army rifle team beat into me apply just as well to revolvers and pistols.

1. Stance: Balanced with skeletal support and relaxed musculature if possible. A good rested or supported position will enhance you stance and reduce your natural wobble area. Shoot within your wobble area and don't try and "ambush" the target by jerking the trigger as your front sight wonders by it.
2. Grip: Hand shake firm, but light enough not to induce shaking. Pistol is held so that it recoils down your radial and ulnar forearm bones.
3. Trigger pull: straight back through the weapon without drag on either side. Stage your trigger (for DA shooting) if that suits you or pull evenly through if that is best for you and your handgun.
4. Sight alignment: Focus on the front sight. You should know it intimately and it should be centered in the rear sight. Relax your eye between shots as you breathe to maintain sharp vision.
5. Sight picture: Place your well aligned sights (#4 above) over the intended point of impact. Front sight clear, target and rear sight a bit fuzzy.
6. Breath control: You need lots of oxygen in your blood, but you want to hold your breath when letting the shot off. Breathe between shots for good concentration, eye sight and relaxed muscles.
7. Follow through: Let the gun move itself. You don't move or recover until the recoil is complete.
8. Call the shot: You should be able to tell if the shot is high, low, wide, etc before you actually check your target.

All of the above for each and every shot. It'll all work out.

Dry fire religiously until you have the muscle memory to keep the weapon steady after the hammer or striker falls. While dry firing, take all the above eight steps and repeat them until they are reflexive and and habitual.

With an accurate handgun and ammo, you can shoot a handgun accurately out to a couple of hundred yards, but you'll really need to follow the above steps to do it consistently, either at close range or long range.

I might also suggest to have a known good handgun shot shoot your pistol and ammo for you and see what he thinks. Sometimes a weapon just doesn't shoot well. I've had a few like that and they no longer reside in my safe.

This is "Shooting 101", and is worth framing and hanging on your reloading room's wall. :)

It is not uncommon to find newer shooters struggling with dominant eye issues. They generally see an immediate improvement after they understand the problem and are given simple options to help.
It's worth checking if you haven't already.

For anyone unfamiliar with this; Keep both eyes OPEN... raise your strong arm's index finger at full-arm's length and point at an object across the room (or in the distance outside)... Now, while steady pointing close only one eye, then open it and close the other... Only one eye will keep your finger on the target, that is your dominant eye.
Newer shooters with a dominant eye opposite their strong side (shoot ride-handed but are left eye dominant, for instance) often struggle until the problem is diagnosed.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

All good advice, we neglect to state the most obvious: Regular range practice.

[Texantothecore]

Dry firing is the key to good shooting. With snap caps in the gun, aim and pull the trigger. Gun should be pointing at the same spot after the shot and before the shot. If you have trouble moving the the gun during the trigger pull slow the trigger down until the gun stays steady.

Practice at that speed until you are consistent, maybe 300 to 600 cycles, then you can speed up. If you begin to screw it up slow down again for a while.
I try to place the trigger into the back of the trigger guard and hold it there for a short time maybe a second or less. That approach has had a big effect on my accuracy.
4. I have trained myself to disregard recoil as it does not have any effect on accuracy. It happens after the bullet leaves the barrel. I just control the gun so I don't lose my grip. It eliminates anticipating the recoil. Huge effect on trigger pull.
5. I have found that shooting at 15 yards is quite helpful. You get better quickly


Like you, I have been shooting pistols for only a year. At the moment, I am putting. 20% of my shots in a six inch circle at 15 yards. The gun is a Bond Cowboy Defender with a .45/410 barrel shooting a 255 grn soft lead bullet. The gun is more accurate than I am and will continue to be so for a while but I am loking foward to moving out to 25 and then 50. Maybe 100 just for laughs.

The dry firing will also develop consistent grip. Your correct grip will obvious.

Keep track of the number dry fires you do. I have 10,000 cycles on the Bond and will contunue to dry fire for those times when I can't get to the range.

Good luck and keep shooting and dry firing.

The dry firing will do several things:
1. Strengthen your trigger finger. Sounds ridiculous but your the finger generally is not very strong as it is for fine work, I fixed that by dry firing. My trigger pull is now smooth and quiet.
2. Dry firing gives you muscle memory without recoil. Very important and productive.
3. If you are shooting a revolver bend your arm a bit. The elbow will absorb very large amounts of recoil. Huge difference in shock to the hand.

[Texantothecore]

A bit out of sequence. Sorry about that

[contender1]

A LOT of EXCELLENT info above.
I will add one other thing not mentioned.
Seek out a professional handgun instructor to assist you. If none are near you, then maybe a winning competitor in one of the gun games,,, like USPSA. (Pick a winner,,, as he's already overcame any issues & knows what to do right.)
And a training tool is a video camera on YOU & the gun as you shoot & dry fire.

But I'd back off & get a 22 as well to start over with. As noted, it's harder to break bad habits than it is to learn good habit from the start. (BTW; I'm a firearms instructor myself.)

I also see you are from New Jersey. I know a good shooter/hunter from NJ. If you PM me,,, I can see about hooking you two guys up.

[stu1ritter]

Trying to learn how to shoot a handgun with a .45ACP will do nothing more than deeply bury bad habits (jerking, pulling, heeling, all in anticipation of recoil) that are very hard to break. As everyone is telling you, learn on a .22 where you can concentrate on learning how to shoot and not recoil management as trying to do both at the same time is a sure way to learn neither. How can you tell if you are concentrating on the front sight when every time you pull the trigger, that thing in your hand explodes? You have to be able to call your shots with the .22 before you move on to recoil. Read the US Army Advanced Marksmanship Guide at http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm and absorb all you can. I still study it.

Stu
teaching handgun for 55 years

[Moleman-]

The dummy rounds will help a great deal as will the other suggestions. Here's one I may of missed reading through these suggestions. With your gun unloaded of course, have a buddy place an empty case on your front sight while you're in your shooting stance. Now practice until you can pull the trigger without knocking the case off. You should be able to pull the trigger and reset without the case falling off of the site. I could do it with a S&W 5946 and a Glock which have a similar trigger pull to the MP.

[MT Gianni]

Practice is great, but you must NOT practice what is making your shots wonder off from your point of aim. Bad habits are easy to reinforce, but hard to break.

The old Army eight steady hold factors that the Army rifle team beat into me apply just as well to revolvers and pistols.

1. Stance: Balanced with skeletal support and relaxed musculature if possible. A good rested or supported position will enhance you stance and reduce your natural wobble area. Shoot within your wobble area and don't try and "ambush" the target by jerking the trigger as your front sight wonders by it.
2. Grip: Hand shake firm, but light enough not to induce shaking. Pistol is held so that it recoils down your radial and ulnar forearm bones.
3. Trigger pull: straight back through the weapon without drag on either side. Stage your trigger (for DA shooting) if that suits you or pull evenly through if that is best for you and your handgun.
4. Sight alignment: Focus on the front sight. You should know it intimately and it should be centered in the rear sight. Relax your eye between shots as you breathe to maintain sharp vision.
5. Sight picture: Place your well aligned sights (#4 above) over the intended point of impact. Front sight clear, target and rear sight a bit fuzzy.
6. Breath control: You need lots of oxygen in your blood, but you want to hold your breath when letting the shot off. Breathe between shots for good concentration, eye sight and relaxed muscles.
7. Follow through: Let the gun move itself. You don't move or recover until the recoil is complete.
8. Call the shot: You should be able to tell if the shot is high, low, wide, etc before you actually check your target.

All of the above for each and every shot. It'll all work out.

Dry fire religiously until you have the muscle memory to keep the weapon steady after the hammer or striker falls. While dry firing, take all the above eight steps and repeat them until they are reflexive and and habitual.

With an accurate handgun and ammo, you can shoot a handgun accurately out to a couple of hundred yards, but you'll really need to follow the above steps to do it consistently, either at close range or long range.

I might also suggest to have a known good handgun shot shoot your pistol and ammo for you and see what he thinks. Sometimes a weapon just doesn't shoot well. I've had a few like that and they no longer reside in my safe.
re #8: While refereeing summer biathalon a few years back I was surprised to hear members of the US Olympic team say to shoot after exhaling or in the last few seconds of the exhale. It gives a calmer pulse than a held breath. They also shoot prone with the chest off the ground slightly as they have been running and a strong pulse will effect the gun.
I realized the same situation will be in a self defense mode so if you practice for defense learn that memory.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Some good ideas above but only one actually gave you the correct answer.

Without trying to belittle you,,, You simply haven't been taught how to run or shoot your gun. Nobody is born knowing how to do this.

I went to my first Front Sight Class full well expecting to be teaching the class by noon the first day. I had been shooting pistols for my entire life and figured I knew what was doing.

Luckily I am not completely stupid and figured out after about 30 minutes,, that maybe I didn't know ANYTHING about shooting a pistol.

In that first class I finished 39th out of 40 people and the person I beat was the woman I was coaching who had never fired a gun in her life!!!

In short I had to unlearn everything I thought I knew about the subject and start from scratch, because I didn't now how to do what I thought I knew how to do in the first place! I am not alone here!

Your M&P is a nearly perfect gun to learn on (It's not a Glock, but it isn't that much different) You can still only do 3 things with it,,, insert mag, rack slide and pull trigger.

First however you need to learn how to insert and remove the mag so that you can do it without thinking about it. Then locking the slide open is the next thing. Learning these two things, which you can practice in front of the TV at night until you get them down, are the basics of running the gun. They must be rote.

After that your presentation to the target from your holster will be next.

After your presentation is solid, then you will concentrate on the two secrets of accuracy which are "SIGHT ALIGNMENT, AND TRIGGER CONTROL."

All of this will be covered in the first 2 hours of any Decent Defensive Pistol class given by a recognized school. I mentioned Front Sight, and I personally consider them to be the best and the fact that they run 80,000 people a year thru classes is the reason why. However you live in Jersey so going to Nevada might be a long drive, but there are other really good schools nearer to you that you can attend.

You will practice what you learned in the class and hopefully return often until you achieve the desired result. I can assure you that the accuracy will be there.

I can't stress this next point enough.

If you are not Recent Ex Military, Law Enforcement, a Competitive Shooter, or been to a recognized school like Front Sight, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Sig Academy or others of similar stature,,,

You don't know how to shoot a pistol !

I am sorry to come off this way but it is a simple fact and I see it everytime I go to the range.

I ran into a woman the other day who had just paid some turd $5400 for a Security Evaluation on her house. The Individual who we are trying to locate is a member of my gun club and took her and her husband to our range for a two hour course on shooting a gun which included such topics as loading the revolver, pointing it in the general direction fo the bad guy,,, and pulling the trigger.

Neither had ever fired a gun in their lives! They only fired 10 rounds a piece from their brand new Snub Nosed Revolvers!

He also showed them where to hide the guns in their house so that they could get at them on a moments notice.

These people actually think they know how to defend themselves with a gun. They are perfect examples of people who can legally own a gun,,, but shouldn't!!!

Go to a school and get trained. it will solve all of your accuracy problems. I guarantee it!

I could talk about the fine points but until the rest of the stuff is in it is a waste of time.

Randy

[DerekP Houston]

fair enough Randy! I do need to attend one of those schools. Thanks for the recommendations.

[Drm50]

To many new people buying 1st handgun for personal protection, are jumping right into the game
with handguns that are equal to the task, but not really practical learning guns. Most of these
pistols are not bulls eye guns to begin with. There are guys with tuned guns of almost any model
that can do some really good shooting with them. The common person getting a pistol for home
defense is not going to Gunsite, ect. They need practical instruction, before they are run into
these "combat drills". They aren't going on missions with the Seals, their mission is to protect
themselves and family. This is why they call it "Defense", for some reason it seems to me, this
robotic, shoot and scoot, is offensive tactics. Which is OK, but novice has a lot of things to learn
before this point. Most new shooters need just a period of firing to get over fear, noise, ect. Then
they can learn to "shoot" will 22, before trans. to CF pistols.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Drm50: All of the well known schools teach from a Blank Slate level including Gunsite. They teach on a gradient that most everyone can duplicate. They also have more advanced classes as well but they aren't accessible to you until you can show you are competent at the basic levels.

You are right that Most people don't go to these schools right after buying a gun for SD. However that doesn't mean that they shouldn't. They are not in any way competent to use a gun for defensive purposes with no training. Problem is many don't realize this and think they are safe. Most would drop the gun if confronted by a real threat just like we see on TV all the time.

Any local instructor who is not training Basic Cooper Doctrine is not the type of guy you want. We have several instructors in my club and I will end up being one as soon as I get the certs to prove I know what I'm talking about. They all have gone to Front Sight or another High End school to get instructor training. Standardization of the basics is mandatory, and all this stuff has been fairly standardized since about 1990. I see minor differences here and there but nothing that detracts from the basic concepts of gun handling.

Basic range work is all about gun handling. It is not about tactics or mindset which are the things you have to learn to survive a confrontation after you know how to shoot. You can learn tactics from people who have been there and done that. Mindset can be taught as basics,,, but the individual has to develop the "Willingness'" to fight and win. You can't teach that, the individual must make the conscious decision to use his tools to survive. This may include killing somebody, and that's no small thing.

Some do,,, some don't, but all of those decisions had to have been made far in advance of needing to execute. You won't have time to ponder the Universe when you are being shot at.

All of these schools I talk about have lectures given at Lunch Time or whenever covering things like the Combat Mindset, Conditions or Levels of Awareness, and other topics about the Mental Aspects of Self Defense. However all they can do is make you aware of these topics, it is up to you to apply them to your life.

If you did no shooting at all and just learned the Mental Aspects from one of these classes you would be way ahead of the average person on the street, who walks around in a Cell Phone induced coma. I see this as a sad testament to our society when people are so ensconced in Pokeman that they walk out in traffic and get ran down by a bus!

Lots to learn at schools. I only wish I'd started 40 years ago, but there weren't really any schools running back then was there? Now there's a school for everything.

My Son bought a new C7 Z06 Corvette last year. It has 680+hp! Luckily GM gave him a coupon to a Corvette Driving School in Nevada.

He can now safely drive that car,,, fast if he wants. He was scary before the school because he didn't understand the basic of driving a car fast. Now he does, and he just left a while ago on a practice drive which he does every few days to keep his skills sharp.

Randy

[dverna]

Get a good revolver with adjustable sights and load with light loads. There are two things you must master. Trigger control and sight alignment. The revolver will function with light loads and is easier to dry fire

Dry fire every day if you can. BTW, make sure there is no ammo in the room you use for dry firing. Pull back the hammer, squeeze the trigger. See where the sights are after the "shot". Repeat. Repeat etc.

At the range, shoot for groups. Only shoot slow fire and single action until you are proficient.

[LAH]

Dry firing is the key to good shooting.

The 3 things that helped me most was trying to keep my eyes open during the blast, pretending the front sight is being pulled back through the rear sight notch as you pull the trigger, & dry firing. My Ruger Single Six & S&W M-17 have been dry fired many thousands of times, same for a couple other handguns I have.

And you need a 22LR handgun. Start at 7 yards with a small dot. Don't move back till your groups are small & round.

[dverna]

LAH

For most, it is less expensive to shoot a .38 with light loads than. .22

[LAH]

LAH

For most, it is less expensive to shoot a .38 with light loads than. .22

No flak from me. The last few years that's what I've done. Many ways to figure this but a 6 cent bullet, 2.5 cent primer, add powder & you're under 10 cents. But if you have to do 3.5 cents for primers you right against a 10 cent 22LR round.

BTW I use the 6 cent bullet figure 'cause I wouldn't sell one regardless of weight for less than 6. BTW 2: I'd love to see Northern Michigan.

[Strtspdlx]

This was shot at 10yds with my 185gn lead H&G #130 over 5.8gn of unique. I think it's a little better then what I was shooting before.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I came out of the military still shooting shotgun patterns with handguns. Good enough to qual, not much more, despite being an Expert with an M16 and M4!

I got my security license, fumbled through qual with a Model 10 before figuring it out. Then I went to an advanced pistol course with a solid instructor. Guy retired from the police, went to work security and only recently stopped shooting competition revolver.

500 rounds later I can shoot it one-handed, draw and fire quickly, and print a cylinder into a postcard at 25m. Fixed sights, BTW, all with Federal factory-loaded 130gr ball. A good instructor and a lot of ammo goes a long way!

[Dusty Bannister]

Which of the many suggestions seems to have helped resolve your problems? This could help some of the others sort things out.

[Walkingwolf]

Seems your issues have been resolved, sometimes it just takes time, and practice. That can get expensive though.

Keep in mind, as already mentioned, you can not expect bullseye accuracy from a gun that was not built for it. And that can be expensive.

[gnostic]

You've picked a hard handgun to shoot well. Try a handgun that's easier to shoot, i.e. longer sight radius, target trigger and target sights for starters.

[Strtspdlx]

Everything said helped significantly. Primarily sight picture. I focused less on lining up the dots perfectly and focused more on taking the same sight picture for every shoot. My sights weren't lined up perfect. It was more or less front sight low and right in relation to the rear. But that's just for me with this gun. I did dry fire a lot this week to see what I was doing wrong. And it seemed to help a lot. I was also told by another member to spread my feet and instead of both feet facing forward face them more or less both out with one foot being further out then the other. And when I grip do so with my dominant hand first and grip it as tight as I can. He mentioned to the point your fingers nearly turn white key word being nearly. Bring the left hand up and interlace fingers with other hand.
In al honesty for a first time shooter is recommend reading this entire thread and Atleast try everything. If it doesn't work for you that's fine. If it does work then keep doing it. I made it a point to try everything. I'm sure I can still improve and I think the key points I was missing was trigger pull, sight picture, and stance/grip. I noticed immediately when I spread my feet apart to shoulder with it was a lot easier to maintain a good sight picture and recover from recoil.

[Walkingwolf]

I have better than average accuracy with all my guns. Yes you want to grip a gun firmly. But not until your fingers turn white, IMO that will induce shaking/tremors in the hand, and at some point loss of feeling in the hand.

Stance is personal preference, what works for general you. Grip style is somewhat personal also. I usually use a one hand grip, second hand support grip. Because I may need to shoot with one hand. Shooting is like playing basketball, you can teach somebody the fundamentals of shooting baskets in 5 minutes, or hours. And the shooter without skills will still miss the basket. Some people are born with the instincts, some must learn skills.

[cainttype]

Naturally gifted will only get you so far, some will get further than others... That's Life.
Proper techniques including stance, sight picture, breathing, and grip (among others) makes the difference between gifted and highly skilled.
A gifted shooter might perform better than most, even if he has bad habits. He will never be better than solid shooters that do things properly.

Breaking the bad habits of a good shot that has been fairly successful for a lifetime can be difficult, actually impossible if the shooter thinks he knows too much already.
Bad habits are best avoided in the first place, but good coaching can improve even the best shooters.

[Dusty Bannister]

I have had a number of email exchanges with the OP over a period of time. When one is having issues like he had, it is time to make some changes and see what happens. If you adjust a scope and hit 4" left at 100 yards, do you make 6 clicks of adjustment? Hence the change is shooting position and especially the grip. I wanted to see a nice firm locked in grip to see if limp grip or limp wrist was part of the problem. I did encourage him to get the firearm well into the web of the hand and wrap the fingers tightly but I also think I suggested he relax it just a bit after seeing "white". I wanted to establish the pressure of the grip and that is hard to express in writing. There is little doubt that the OP will make other adjustments as he becomes more proficient and comfortable in the use of this firearm.

As you noted, you usually use a one hand grip. Fine, I usually shoot with either hand, just in case one is incapacitated. That all comes later. Get him on the paper, safety, competent, confident. Then worry about developing the skills. He was able to figure out the main problem, which was using the night sights in spite of all the suggestions and recommendations offered. Good job Carlo.

[Strtspdlx]

I didn't mean to say grip should turn your fingers white. It was more or less shove the beaver tail of the gun in the web of my right hand and grab it until my fingers nearly turned white and back off. Dusty had a better way of explaining it but I managed to butcher it up. The grip part helped tremendously with trigger pull and recoil management. It's seemed the muzzle wanted to rise less and it applied more pressure evenly on my shoulders verse letting the muzzle rise.

[str8wal]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/s4s4u/correction_chart_logo_small_gif_zps1ad2c2db.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/s4s4u/media/correction_chart_logo_small_gif_zps1ad2c2db.jpg.ht ml)
If left handed, flip this horizontally.

[Strtspdlx]

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/s4s4u/correction_chart_logo_small_gif_zps1ad2c2db.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/user/s4s4u/media/correction_chart_logo_small_gif_zps1ad2c2db.jpg.ht ml)
If left handed, flip this horizontally.

ill have to print that and hang it on my wall for when I dry fire

[W.R.Buchanan]

"In al honesty for a first time shooter is recommend reading this entire thread and Atleast try everything. If it doesn't work for you that's fine. If it does work then keep doing it. I made it a point to try everything. I'm sure I can still improve and I think the key points I was missing was trigger pull, sight picture, and stance/grip."

Did you try finding a school to go to?

Everything you've tried would be covered in detail at a school in the first two hours, but your 4 key points are the same ones everyone fights to learn. They are Called the "Fundamentals of Pistol Shooting."

The reason why you go to a school is to learn them correctly,,, rather than trying to understand what so many people are saying in different ways,,, Doing what you think they were saying,,, and only developing a bunch of bad habits.

Schools clarify all of this and then drill you on it,,, so you get it right .

Randy

[lightload]

From the early 1960s I taught myself handgun basics by reading and studying a manual with instructions from Blankinship,Clark, Toney, Askins, Cooper, and others. I had unlimited .22 and 9mm WW2 surplus ammo. My style was single action at bullseye targets. Later, I studied and learned double action revolver shooting, which now is the only way that I shoot revolvers. Up through my late 50s I could keep most shots fired from a 2" j frame inside the black of a 25 yard bullseye pistol target, and I could do this consistently from 25 yards. Mastering double action revolver shooting elevated me from a good pistol shot to a much better pistol shot. As stated above, unless a person learns trigger control and sight picture requirements, he will not advance. I've taught many people to shoot and had most success with those who had no handgun experience because they had not learned poor practices. My opinion is that the .22lr remains supreme as a teaching tool. Without getting long winded here, I allways insisted that the student not look at his shot placement or group until having fired 5 shots. Occasionally, I would get a guy who would stubbornly interrupt his string of 5 shots to look where each bullet hit. With two such students, I refused further instruction after the session ended and explained that I would not try to teach a person who would not follow simple instructions.

My favorite expression which is likely known by the old guys here: when you try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

[Strtspdlx]

I have briefly looked into courses I could take locally. Some aren't offered until fall but they are highly recommended by people at my range. So I think if I can't find anything else by fall I will sign my wife and myself up for the classes. Luckily they're only 10 minutes from my house but they're a two day class.


"In al honesty for a first time shooter is recommend reading this entire thread and Atleast try everything. If it doesn't work for you that's fine. If it does work then keep doing it. I made it a point to try everything. I'm sure I can still improve and I think the key points I was missing was trigger pull, sight picture, and stance/grip."

Did you try finding a school to go to?

Everything you've tried would be covered in detail at a school in the first two hours, but your 4 key points are the same ones everyone fights to learn. They are Called the "Fundamentals of Pistol Shooting."

The reason why you go to a school is to learn them correctly,,, rather than trying to understand what so many people are saying in different ways,,, Doing what you think they were saying,,, and only developing a bunch of bad habits.

Schools clarify all of this and then drill you on it,,, so you get it right .

Randy

[tdoyka]

come to think of it, back in the early '90's , i don't think there was a school that taught it. i may be wrong.

i was taught by a drill sergeant and later by an old friend.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have briefly looked into courses I could take locally. Some aren't offered until fall but they are highly recommended by people at my range. So I think if I can't find anything else by fall I will sign my wife and myself up for the classes. Luckily they're only 10 minutes from my house but they're a two day class.

If they are a two day class then they should be teaching from a Blank Page, meaning they explain which end of the gun the bullet comes out of and work up from there. We are talking the Basics which is exactly what everyone needs as a beginning. Depending on how you and her progress you can take more advanced classes to increase your skills.

Defensive Pistol and Long Gun Training are becoming more and more necessary in our society everyday. We are witnessing shooters who are far advanced from some of the turds with guns we've seen in the past who were essentially on medication or proficient Video Gamers.

You live in NJ and I don't know if you live in a big city or out in the country, but in either case the need to defend you and yours is a real possibility much the same as it is for me living in CA.

The need for proper training for Firearms is just as important as learning to drive, or any other skill that uses "Fine Motor Skills."

Those skills must be learned correctly and practiced correctly in order to be successful when called upon.

There is a saying at these schools which is really true. When the SHTF Your skills will revert to 50% of your best day on the range.

Now if you are a 90% shooter you are looking at 45% and that's not the end of the world. That's a 50/50 chance at surviving and you could win that one.

However if you are only a 50% shooter on your best day,,, you suck, and you really need to run! Cuz going into a Gun Fight as a 3:1 Underdog probably won't turn out well.

Getting schooled is the best way to advance your skills.

John MacEnrow once was asked what he spent all his money on? His reply was,,, Tennis Lessons!

You can never be too good!

Randy

[44man]

When in the army, we were given old rattle trap 1911's to shoot. I was the only one on the line to hit where I aimed. Made a small hole at center. Everyone else tore up the ground. I was versed with the .44 mag and hot loads long before, shooting to 500 yards and more.
I have always used a different procedure to teach. I start with heavy recoil and instruction until the man can control it, then I can go lighter and he is better.
I never believed in a .22 first, then a .38, etc because I see the guys think about an increase in recoil. The mind will go out of shape that way.
You can dry fire forever and things go to pot when you know a round is in there.
One day a friend brought his son to shoot, .22's and such along with a .454. I had my .500 JRH and he feared it greatly, would not touch it. Once I showed him and told him what to do, he tried and hit the little bottle at 50, big grin! He went through a lot of shots. Then took his dads .454 and busted little bottles at 100 off hand. Once recoil is managed, the smaller gun poses no problems.
I am backwards and it does work. Once your brain says "this is nothing." You will shoot better.
Had a friend here with a 30-30 and had him dry fire a few times---PERFECT, not a movement at all. I loaded the gun and it all went to pot. He dug tater grooves all over my range. The brain does funny things. I went through years of dry fire stuff but it will not help at all if you know the gun is loaded.
Even loading with a few empties can fail if he thinks the chamber is empty but if he expects the gun to fire he will flinch.
You are better off shooting a .44 mag or larger before going smaller. Tame recoil first. A nine or ACP has no recoil to speak of, you only have the heavy slide coming back.

[LAH]

You are better off shooting a .44 mag or larger before going smaller.

Sounds like a plan for my grand babies? Started my girls with a pellet pistol. Guess I was wrong. And guess I wasted & I'm still wasting all this time dry firing. Maybe I'm thinking of firearm familiarization all wrong.

[cainttype]

I'd never hand a bruiser to any novice, especially a woman (or worse... a youngster).

I have handed a "larger" handgun to a seasoned shooter who was simply out of practice.
He was having a little difficulty with a S&W 44 Mag, that we both knew he normally handled very well. After having the "It's all between your ears..." converation, "You're just rusty.", I watched as he continued to frustrate himself.
I called him over and had him shoot a cylinder full of heavy-load 454 Casull (his first time), and then told him something like, "Now... Go play with your toy." He walked back to his M29 and was much better immediatly.
He grinned as he called back, pointing at his pistol, "This is NOTHING!"
Confidence's importance cannot be overstated.

Another thing that I always do with novices is remind them to smile when they're shooting handguns... It might sound silly, but it has been very effective too often to ignore.

[44man]

Only thing to watch is who you give a big gun to. You do not want to injure someone. A kid or lady should not be given a .500. A BB gun or pellet gun is fine to teach young. I was talking about grown men. They are harder to teach then a kid and a woman can make you look silly.

[Drm50]

W.R.B. I agree with every thing you said. My point is the thousands of people buying their 1st
pistol, because of worry for their personal safety, how many of them are going to get into the gun
deep enough to go to a top shelf school? I see you are from Calf.- that's another thing, the time,
expense, and avaibility of such training. It's definitely the best way to go, but not practical for
most people. There are a lot of certified instructions to teach safety, handling, and marksmanship.
A good first step, but has nothing to do with defensive shooting. We are talking about apples and
oranges.
P.S. If you have ever been to Appalacia, you should know you will need a back load of Oil pans
for that 635 hp Vette, we always managed to wrapp 375hps around hard objects, Vetts to low
hung, to compete.

[Multigunner]

Each style of handgun has quirks you have to overcome before you can get maximum accuracy.
I can use just about any revolver and have no problem with double action or single action, lousy heavy creepy triggers have little noticeable effect compared to light crisp triggers when using a revolver, but auto loaders hit differently for me according to grip angle and width and minor differences in trigger pull are much more noticeable when using an autoloader.

If everyone could use every stock out of the box pistol well there'd be no market for custom grips, trigger shoes and gunsmithed triggers.

With autoloaders like the Colt 1911 and Browning P-35 my groups are tight but consistently low when using the sights, but dead center when point shooting at close range.
When using pistols with a more raked grip I can feel the muzzle wobbling, resulting in larger though well centered groups, unless the pistol has a grip with thumb rest.

This is when shooting one handed under more or less field conditions. I don't believe in relying on a two handed grip unless trying for extra long range shots.

The only one size fits all grip I know of is the Colt "Plow Handle" of the single action revolvers. A near perfect design if ever there was one.

Some wonder nines have grips more like grasping a table leg or 2X4.

[W.R.Buchanan]

DRM50: We are actually talking about the same thing, but from different perspectives.

The thing I see most often is guys who want to upgrade their guns with all sorts of high end parts (especially AR guys) when spending the money on a school would benefit them more.

Knowing how to shoot is senior to having a nicer gun to shoot. Especially when you don't really know the difference between a $600 gun and a $1600 gun at the beginners level.

I realize that not everybody can or will attend a big school, but with Front Sight pushing 80,000 people a year thru their facility in Pahrump NV, it is obvious that more and more people are realizing the need for more basic to advanced training.

The biggest problem that I see with the big schools is their locations. Most are out West and some are on the right coast with not much in between, so the logistics of attending a big school become a major factor preventing many from attending. I have seen 4 guys in an Escalade who drove non stop from New York to Nevada to attend a 4 day rifle class and then drove non stop back home. 99% of people would not do this.

I do feel that it is the responsibility of any gun shop worth its salt to at least have access to local NRA Instructors that can deliver a decent basic shooting class to familiarize new owners with their guns and their usage. Just letting someone go out the door with no more knowledge than loading and firing a gun is not very responsible in IMHO!

I also feel that a 2 day class (16hrs) is the bare minimum where the individual was schooled and then drilled on a range with dry fire then live fire and about 200-400 rounds used in the training. With that much firing the individual should be competent enough to be able to handle the gun safely and maybe hit what he's shooting with some degree of accuracy.

Then at the end of that class a serious recommendation to the student to seek to attend a big school could be made. All of the gun shops in my area recommend Front Sight and there are coupons available to make the first trips pretty inexpensive. My first trip was $250 and since my Bro in Law has a vacation house in Las Vegas it cut down on the lodging cost. Even so Front Sight has deals worked out with hotels in Pahrump to minimize costs for food and lodging. Flying in and out of Las Vegas with guns is not a big problem as long as you follow the instructions on the Front Sight Website that are there to minimize the hassle of traveling with firearms.

Front Sight and or Las Vegas is still a 6-7 hour drive for me so it's not like I can or want to go every weekend. Since I am a Guardian Member all my classes are free and all I have to pay for is ammo and arrange lodging. I wouldn't mind going 3-4 times a year but the weather becomes a factor as well and roasting a 100 degree plus temps is not on my list of fun things to do with a gun. So we are relegated to windows between late Feb and mid May, and then again from Late Sept to early Dec until things become uncomfortable. The other 6 months are unbearable for me, and then you have to work those times into your schedule which I was unable to do earlier this year. I am going in Oct no matter what. I need a once a year tune up every year on both Handgun and Carbine and there are other classes I'd like to do as well. all about time for me. It is fun for me as I like learning. I figured out some time back that I didn't know everything,,, so I am always working towards that goal.

The desire for training has to be cultivated at the basic levels of gun ownership, and only then will new owners really get what they paid for out of their firearms purchases.

The Vette probably wouldn't be my first choice for Dirt Road Racing in your neck of the woods. It scrapes like hell just coming in and going out of my driveway. It sure is fast! and I mean real fast! a 10 second car easily.

Randy

[Strtspdlx]

A lot of people that buy their doorstep handgun for self defense aren't shooters like me. I'm not saying I'm an excellent shooter or anything but I try to go to the range once a week and average about 200 per range session. How many first time buyers attend the range that often? The majority of the ones I've seen buy a firearm and hit the range a handful of times and he firearm never sees the light of day for a significant amount of time afterwords. So even with proper training most of that would be lost. I'm not against the trainin. But in reality for people that don't regularly shoot it's a waste. For me it wouldn't be. But most people don't have the desire to go through all that time and work. It is Ashame but you can blame instant gratification for that.

[gray wolf]

I M H O
You can attend all the classes you want.
Go to all the schools
most of it will be forgotten on the way home.

Unless you practice/and standing in one place shooting at the same kind of target,
making the same mistakes over and over, will result in failure.

Practice must be done until the drill ( what ever one it is ) becomes embedded.

Self defense requires many different skills and each one is a challenge unto it's self
and each one must be mastered as an individual skill that in the end make up the whole package.

Simply put:
You absolutely do not rise to the occasion,
you will always digress to the level of training you have mastered.

Defending your life is not on the job training, it's strictly come as you are
and your expected to participate in your own rescue.

Unfortunately most gun owners new and old don't have a clue as to what a gun fight invokes, and involves.
What they have in there favor is the statistics show they probably will never have to find out,
perhaps that's a good thing for everyone Eh.

The thing about some shooters is they just simply do not know what they don't know.
Then again some people are better off left in there comfort zone.

I would never slam a person trying to learn anything,
but to go to a class, or a two or three day school and then think they are all set
is simply untrue.
It takes hours and hours of practice and ammo to develop the skills to cover the bases on the street.

I can prove this to most shooters in about 15 minutes and have done so many times.

I have seen it take multiple training sessions just to break one or two bad habits,
habits that unless broken and rectified inhibit the training needed to move forward.

Enough said

[tdoyka]

I M H O
You can attend all the classes you want.
Go to all the schools
most of it will be forgotten on the way home.

Unless you practice/and standing in one place shooting at the same kind of target,
making the same mistakes over and over, will result in failure.

Practice must be done until the drill ( what ever one it is ) becomes embedded.

Self defense requires many different skills and each one is a challenge unto it's self
and each one must be mastered as an individual skill that in the end make up the whole package.

Simply put:
You absolutely do not rise to the occasion,
you will always digress to the level of training you have mastered.

Defending your life is not on the job training, it's strictly come as you are
and your expected to participate in your own rescue.

Unfortunately most gun owners new and old don't have a clue as to what a gun fight invokes, and involves.
What they have in there favor is the statistics show they probably will never have to find out,
perhaps that's a good thing for everyone Eh.

The thing about some shooters is they just simply do not know what they don't know.
Then again some people are better off left in there comfort zone.

I would never slam a person trying to learn anything,
but to go to a class, or a two or three day school and then think they are all set
is simply untrue.
It takes hours and hours of practice and ammo to develop the skills to cover the bases on the street.

I can prove this to most shooters in about 15 minutes and have done so many times.

I have seen it take multiple training sessions just to break one or two bad habits,
habits that unless broken and rectified inhibit the training needed to move forward.

Enough said

i have to agree with you on that. i had a stroke about 4 years ago and i never picked up a pistol again. then this year i did. you can't believe what you have to do again. i went from a ruger srh with a 7.5" barrel to a ruger sbh with a 4 5/8" barrel(44 mag stayed the same). since i only have one hand, i can only go about 25 yards. after that i have to use my bog-pod. i can focus on the front sight, but my trigger pull and follow thru still need a bit. its somethin i need to do everyday(i do, both unloaded and loaded). most guys/girls buy a handgun, maybe go to a class for a couple of days and put the handgun away for years. several years later they can barely pick it up from the right end, let alone shoot it.

it takes practice, practice and more practice. and when you think you know enough, you practice some more because you don't know diddly s#@!.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I M H O
You can attend all the classes you want.
Go to all the schools
most of it will be forgotten on the way home.

Unless you practice/and standing in one place shooting at the same kind of target,
making the same mistakes over and over, will result in failure.

Practice must be done until the drill ( what ever one it is ) becomes embedded.

Self defense requires many different skills and each one is a challenge unto it's self
and each one must be mastered as an individual skill that in the end make up the whole package.

Simply put:
You absolutely do not rise to the occasion,
you will always digress to the level of training you have mastered.

Defending your life is not on the job training, it's strictly come as you are
and your expected to participate in your own rescue.

Unfortunately most gun owners new and old don't have a clue as to what a gun fight invokes, and involves.
What they have in there favor is the statistics show they probably will never have to find out,
perhaps that's a good thing for everyone Eh.

The thing about some shooters is they just simply do not know what they don't know.
Then again some people are better off left in there comfort zone.

I would never slam a person trying to learn anything,
but to go to a class, or a two or three day school and then think they are all set
is simply untrue.
It takes hours and hours of practice and ammo to develop the skills to cover the bases on the street.

I can prove this to most shooters in about 15 minutes and have done so many times.

I have seen it take multiple training sessions just to break one or two bad habits,
habits that unless broken and rectified inhibit the training needed to move forward.

Enough said


This is exactly my point, with a few exceptions.

First; going to one class and thinking you're John Wayne is fallacy. But the kind of classes I am talking about also include a massive amounts of actual shooting. In a 4 day Front Sight Defensive Pistol Class you will shoot 800 rounds over the course of 4 days. However it took me 5 of those classes before I really started to get the hang of it.

Once your Gun Handling is in then you start concentrating on Speed of Presentation and Sight Alignment and Trigger Control. Once your presentation is up to speed, you find that you have more time to actually make sight alignment and execute trigger control that doesn't influence shot placement.

This takes a significant effort on the part of the individual and requires many hours of Dry Fire Practice to engrain the Muscle Memory necessary to get consistent results, followed by Live Fire to learn to control recoil and verify shot placement.

But my main point is that going to a big school like Front Sight as a new shooter is the best way to see the fundamentals in action and get hooked on training as the best way to reach a higher level of proficiency than is achievable without direct instruction and coaching.

You may eventually reach this level on your own,,, but don't count on it. Like Gray Wolf said,,,

You don't know, what you don't know.

According to Socrates,,, That makes you a fool.

Randy