Lil' Gun powder in a 357 Maximum?

[fatelvis]

Looking through the powder selections on Quickload, it sure looks like Lil'Gun powder would be a winner in my 12" Contender using a 358627 GC boolit. Does anyone use this powder and like/love it? Any downsides to using it? I'm not familiar with this powder. Thanks!

[NSB]

I bought a pound of it two years ago and played with it in 357mag and 357max. It shot just "ok" , but not great. I tried a lot of different bullets with it and it never shot as well as my best loads using other powders. That's just my experience, maybe not shared with others. I ended up giving the rest of the can away to a friend and he said the same thing. Guess you'll have to try it for yourself to find out.

[44man]

It is HOT burning, 12 shots from a .357 made the barrel so hot it could not be touched. The rest of mine will be for the 410. Freedom will not honor the warranty if you use it. It will erode steel.

[fatelvis]

It will erode steel.
Really? Well that certainly is a downside to using this powder.

[dragon813gt]

Really? Well that certainly is a downside to using this powder.

Yes, FA has proven that it erodes the forcing cone. You will have lots of people say the claim is bogus. Between the erosion and heat issues I will not use it. It heats a barrel up like no other powder I've ever used. I realize all powders will heat the barrel up but I physically couldn't touch the barrel on an 1894C after a somewhat quick mag dump.

[DougGuy]

As far as the claims of erosion, gotta realize that a full house load in a Casull revolver is what is generating these reports. I have used full house Ruger Only loads in a Vaquero in .45 Colt but we are talking 30kpsi max compared to 65kpsi and that right there is a SIGNIFICANT difference. It heated up the Vaquero pretty good after just one cylinder full.

The .357 Max is safe to 40kpsi which again is a LOT less likely to erode steel than 65kpsi so I would think you are below the level of destruction witnessed in the Casull forcing cone if you want to try it.

I used LilGun to download my RF boolits in .45 Colt to about 85% of the Ruger Only max loads, something that is not quite possible to do without downloading W296/H110 below suggested minimum starting weights, and this endeavor worked out quite well. I have an accurate, clean burning hunting load that is significantly less punishing than the full house H110 loads I was using before trying the LilGun powder.

The claim to fame for LilGun, is that it gets the same velocities as W296/H110 but does so with less peak pressure. So far my experience with it is that it does do what they claim it does.

For me, it's great under very heavy boolits, it DOES like a heavy crimp, seems the added resistance of case tension and heavy crimp and a 320gr boolit gets better ignition the longer the time between firing and when the boolit actually pulls crimp and starts moving.

I'll continue to use it in my less than max loads for heavy boolits, it seems to have found a niche here, and erosion won't ever be an issue, my revolver is already Taylor throated to relieve a very severe thread choke.

[BAGTIC]

A check of my reference show that the relative heat per mass of L'il Gun is 4090 , H110 is 4110, 2400 is 4220, Blue Dot is 4380, and Power Pistol is 5515.

Any increase in gun heating is probably due not to flame temperature but to larger charges.

[44man]

My understanding is the powder has little flame suppressant coating. It does get to velocity with lower pressures but pressure is not not the same. All powders can exceed the melting point of steel but it is how and when, where. Time counts.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I've used it in .357 mag with the 358249 boolit. Works great. It may heat the barrel faster, but I usually don't shoot them that fast. For heavy boolits in a rifle or long barreled handgun, I think it is great. I have seen no erosion, but then I've only shot a few hundred. I like that it generates good velocity with lower pressures.

[sw282]

Hottest powder l have ever used.. 200 rds Hornady FTX 140GR in 357 loaded with the stuff sit on my ammo shelf now...Shooting Lil Gun loaded ammo got my S&W Model 27 almost boiling...Wont shoot any of them more.. Likely break them down or sell

[376Steyr]

I use Lil Gun in Skeeter Skelton 357 loads: 38 Special case/358158 seated long/15.5 grs Lil Gun (versus 13.5 of 2400 in the original). I've noticed no ill effects so far. I get 1200 fps with the Lil Gun loads, the same as with the original recipe. This load is less than a maximum load, though.

[Lloyd Smale]

did a test in my 50 Beowulf one day. Loaded 10 rounds up with lil gun and 10 with wc297. After 10 shots as fast as you could pull the trigger using 297 the barrel was obviously hot but you could give it a quick touch and it wasn't smoking. After 10 with lilgun it was smoking and so hot id bet you could have about lit a cigarette off of it. I wont use it in ANYTHING anymore. It might work fine in a gun like a 22 hornet bolt that's shot very slowly but id bet even in a gun like that if it could be measured, it would erode more then something like 110 or 4227.

[44man]

My SBH has exceeded 81,000 heavy loads, IHMSA, practice and hunting up to 330 gr boolits and has no measurable wear, no end shake or damage. Only the small sand blasting on the cone edges.
Only 296 all these years. It still shoots as good as ever.
I don't think I will be changing.

[Parson]

It's been several years so I don't remember everything but I used a 200gr gas checked hard cast bullet (2 parts lino and 1 part soft) heavy dose of Little Gun (don't remember how much). Out of 10 in. Contender did 1950fps, blew 200 yard chickens clean off the rail

[Gohon]

As far as the claims of erosion, gotta realize that a full house load in a Casull revolver is what is generating these reports.

That's pretty much it in a nut shell. I've proven to myself that Lil'Gun does burn hotter than most powders but I don't buy that the heat is what is eroding steel. What FA doesn't tell you is they were were using max loads behind light for weight bullets. In effect it was a sand blasting effect of the ball powder eroding the forcing cone. Think about it...those shooting the 357 magnum or 357 maximum in rifles never report this kind of problem.

I load a lot of Lil'Gun in the 22 Hornet and sometimes for the 357 magnum rifles but I use other powders in the Maximum because of better accuracy.

[44man]

We used 180 gr bullets/boolits in the .357 at less then max loads. Working with any combination of weights showed HEAT. Sandblasting is just not the same thing.
What ruins a .220 Swift or other high volume capacity cartridge? Heat erosion. Barrel life gets short.
The best I found for the max is the 4227's but I hate it in a .44.
Fact is plain, extruded powder or ball powder in a revolver still has powder pushed that is not being burned until past the cone. Both will sandblast. Not happening in a rifle or single shot but heat still melts steel. Throats are shot out so a rifle shooter seats longer until the barrel needs replaced or set back.
Use what you want, But my guns cost much and I can't replace or fix them. They must last my lifetime.

[Gohon]

Of course heat melts steel.....that's how the barrels are formed. But rapid shooting never comes close to reaching those temperatures except maybe with a belt fed machine gun. The temperature at which a human feels a burn to their hand is 150-170F. Here is a test where 100 rounds were shot in rapid succession and the highest temperature recorded was 229F after five 20 round clips. http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/0611.htm So two 20 round magazines rapidly shot from a Mini14 or AR15 may hit the 150 degree mark and burn ones hand but it won't be melting steel. I suspect though that accuracy will go to pot until the barrel cools back down. Not trying to argue but just think the term "heat melts steel" is misleading and inaccurate for this subject. I still think the main contributing factor to throat erosion in a pistol or revolver is the sandblast effect of some powders with heat being a less factor. Just my opinion....

BTW...I don't think FA's claim is bogus but I do think they may not be tell everyone the full data.

[dragon813gt]

The temperature at which a human feels a burn to their hand is 150-170F.

Boy are you off on that one. 130 will cause a third degree burn in fifteen seconds. 156 will cause a third degree burn in one second. Stick your hand under some hot tap water. Even at 120 a good portion of people will pull their hand out immediately. It's a response we can't control. Our instincts kick in to protect our body.

[44man]

Just about every powder exceeds the melting point of steel but exposure is so short, no damage is done, even a paper wad will not burn or plastic melt, boolits do not melt.
But if it builds up faster then the barrel can shed heat, you have a problem. Lil'gun seems to get hot right fast and concentrate heat too much. It is like passing your hand through a flame or holding it in the flame.
It is said lower pressure for the same velocity---WELL so what? You try to protect your gun from pressure when our guns are so strong, so you over heat them, doesn't make sense.

[Gohon]

Boy are you off on that one. 130 will cause a third degree burn in fifteen seconds. 156 will cause a third degree burn in one second. Stick your hand under some hot tap water. Even at 120 a good portion of people will pull their hand out immediately. It's a response we can't control. Our instincts kick in to protect our body.

No...I'm not really off the mark. Never said someone could or would hold onto something that was less than 150F. But I probable should have said the temperature at which a person would receive a severe burn if the object is held onto. Nevertheless those temperatures are not melting any steel and that was the point being made.

"Human skin burns to varying degrees of severity as the applied temperature rises. Humans begin to feel a burning pain when skin temperature rises to 111 degrees Fahrenheit, with first-degree burns developing at 118 F. More severe burns occur at higher temperatures. An applied heat of 131 degrees Fahrenheit causes second-degree burns on exposed skin. Pain receptors overload and become numb at a temperature of 140 F. At 162 F, human tissue is destroyed on contact. The entire range of burn temperatures, from the first appearance of pain to instant destruction, falls well below 212 F, the boiling point of water."

[Hang Fire]

When Ruger came out with the .357 max in the Super Blackhawk. it would erode the top strap. The powder used for loads was what many laid the blame on.

[44man]

Powder and bullet weight did not matter. I shot 200 gr rifle bullets and 4227 and had the slot. Ruger found it only got so deep and stopped.
It was due to extreme high pressure through a small gap. Like they cut steel today with high pressure water jets. It was a mechanical cutting, not heat.
S&W had a problem when they made the funny alloys and put a steel insert in that could be replaced.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive damaged forcing cones from excessive use of hot loaded ball powders so I KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN. If you don't think so well then your probably not shooting enough or are shooting low pressure stuff. Bob Baker has actually seen gun wear from lilgun powder. Yes the 454 is an extreme case in its own because of pressures but its happened in other calibers too. Use what you want in your guns. Me I think its silly to even bother with lilgun. You can get the same ballistics and accuracy with other powders so why would I even want to TAKE A CHANCE that I'm going to screw up a 2000 dollar gun and have the warrantee voided. Or for that matter even screw up a 500 dollar ruger that I will be without for months while its getting rebarreled?
Of course heat melts steel.....that's how the barrels are formed. But rapid shooting never comes close to reaching those temperatures except maybe with a belt fed machine gun. The temperature at which a human feels a burn to their hand is 150-170F. Here is a test where 100 rounds were shot in rapid succession and the highest temperature recorded was 229F after five 20 round clips. http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/0611.htm So two 20 round magazines rapidly shot from a Mini14 or AR15 may hit the 150 degree mark and burn ones hand but it won't be melting steel. I suspect though that accuracy will go to pot until the barrel cools back down. Not trying to argue but just think the term "heat melts steel" is misleading and inaccurate for this subject. I still think the main contributing factor to throat erosion in a pistol or revolver is the sandblast effect of some powders with heat being a less factor. Just my opinion....

BTW...I don't think FA's claim is bogus but I do think they may not be tell everyone the full data.

[dtknowles]

ive damaged forcing cones from excessive use of hot loaded ball powders so I KNOW IT CAN HAPPEN. If you don't think so well then your probably not shooting enough or are shooting low pressure stuff. Bob Baker has actually seen gun wear from lilgun powder. Yes the 454 is an extreme case in its own because of pressures but its happened in other calibers too. Use what you want in your guns. Me I think its silly to even bother with lilgun. You can get the same ballistics and accuracy with other powders so why would I even want to TAKE A CHANCE that I'm going to screw up a 2000 dollar gun and have the warrantee voided. Or for that matter even screw up a 500 dollar ruger that I will be without for months while its getting rebarreled?

So could this forcing cone damage occur with H110? I guess it is good that I have Dan Wesson revolvers, a barrel change takes 5 minutes and I can repair a forcing cone in less than 30 minutes and in less than a hour I can turn an 8 inch barrel into a 6 inch barrel. Is their a forcing cone geometry that is less susceptible to this damage?

Tim

[MT Gianni]

When Ruger came out with the .357 max in the Super Blackhawk. it would erode the top strap. The powder used for loads was what many laid the blame on.
This was generally attributed to ball powders and 110 and 125 gr bullets. Many powders put a groove behind the top strap. Several well known writers were of the opinion Bob Melik caused the whole shut down because he was so invested in the 30 and 357 Herrett cartridges he could not stand the heat of another high speed 35 piston in a revolver no less. The problem fixes it self when the groove hits the depth that the gasses have cooled below erosion temps. It is also fixed with sticking to bullets weighing 165 gr+. Darn shame Ruger didn't stick with the gun.

[dtknowles]

This was generally attributed to ball powders and 110 and 125 gr bullets. Many powders put a groove behind the top strap. Several well known writers were of the opinion Bob Melik caused the whole shut down because he was so invested in the 30 and 357 Herrett cartridges he could not stand the heat of another high speed 35 piston in a revolver no less. The problem fixes it self when the groove hits the depth that the gasses have cooled below erosion temps. It is also fixed with sticking to bullets weighing 165 gr+. Darn shame Ruger didn't stick with the gun.

My Ruger Single Six has a groove on the inside of the top strap at the cylinder gap. Could it have been caused by gas cutting from .22 Mag.

Tim

[Lloyd Smale]

yup light bullets and ball powders tend to wear on forcing cones. Lil gun is much worse the 110/296 but 110/296 or aa9 will do it too.
This was generally attributed to ball powders and 110 and 125 gr bullets. Many powders put a groove behind the top strap. Several well known writers were of the opinion Bob Melik caused the whole shut down because he was so invested in the 30 and 357 Herrett cartridges he could not stand the heat of another high speed 35 piston in a revolver no less. The problem fixes it self when the groove hits the depth that the gasses have cooled below erosion temps. It is also fixed with sticking to bullets weighing 165 gr+. Darn shame Ruger didn't stick with the gun.

[44man]

Yes you will get sandblasting on a cone. It is powder not ignited yet that hits the edges. But it does no damage in the cone and mine is still smooth and shiny when cleaned. I found it does not hurt how the gun shoots at all.
The cut is from gas pressure, My .44 has no marks on the top strap. My loads are just short of brass sticking. Same in every caliber from .44 to .500.
A bullet hitting a cone off center will eat the throats oblong, eat the side of the cone and enter into the rifling. NOT the same as heat either.
The cut in a top strap is 100% mechanical pressure. So is most leading.
To melt steel is another thing.

[fatelvis]

After reading all the responses, I take it that Lil Gun is not good for revolver use, but seems that it would be OK in my contender. Am I wrong?


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[44man]

Might be but is still hot. Why would a gap in a revolver make it worse? I would not use it.

[BAGTIC]

This sounds like the same problem the .357 Maximum had in Ruger's Blackhawk handgun way back when. Heavy charges behind light bullets.

[BAGTIC]

Where and when are the temperatures being measured. The inside of the bore will be hotter than the outside of the barrel and the temperature while combustion is still continuing wil be higher than after pressure has already begun to decrease.

[Lloyd Smale]

Depends on how you use your contender. If its strickly a hunting gun and probably would see 500 rounds in its life I wouldn't worry to much about it. But if its a varmit rig that gets that many rounds shot in a year id ditch the lilgun. When I first quit it in my handguns I figured id use it up in my 22 hornet rifle but it is such a good shooting gun that my fears of destroying that accuracy made me stop that too. I ended up giving about 5lbs remaining in a keg to a buddy who loads it in his guns (that are lucky to be shot 20 shots a year let alone a 100 in one day. I told him about it and he went running off with it with a big smile on his face. To me its just wasn't worth the chance of damaging something. To many other good powders that don't have that problem.
After reading all the responses, I take it that Lil Gun is not good for revolver use, but seems that it would be OK in my contender. Am I wrong?


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[44man]

Heat is cumulative so a shot here and there with time should be OK. Like a big rifle, shoot a few and wait to cool before more. Lil'gun adds heat faster and scares me. Nobody shoots a revolver with 10 or 20 minutes between shots. Even group shooting with a Tender will not be slow enough.
The .357 we used it in was a Freedom, 6 shots and then a sight adjustment and 6 more, not fast. If you need to solder a sight on, shoot Lil'gun.

[fatelvis]

I planned on shooting silhouette with my Contender, and lots of plinking, so I'm going to steer clear of using Lil Gun.


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[44man]

I planned on shooting silhouette with my Contender, and lots of plinking, so I'm going to steer clear of using Lil Gun.


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I don't like the 4227's but they work in the Max. Best EVER in them.

[curioushooter]

My first exposure to Lil'Gun was in 357 magnum rifles. It is really and outstanding top-performance powder in such firearms, approaching 30-30 muzzle energy. It seems to need 158 grains or heavier, and to also need at least a small-pistol magnum primer if not a small-rifle primer.

My second exposure to Lil'Gun was in my 357 maximum 10" Contender. Here it is also outstanding. I had been using Winchester 296 for a long time in various cartridges for the Contender from 375 Win, to 32-20, to 357 Herrett. Lil'Gun is similar to 296, but it has a very paradoxical characteristic that makes it outstanding and unique as far as I know. It somehow is a FASTER burning powder than Win 296 yet has lower chamber pressures with the same charges and bullet weights. This gives it an edge in handguns. Even with 10" of barrel, there can be unburnt powder sometimes with 296. LG doesn't do this as bad a Win 296.

Another advantage to LG is that it seems more temperature stable to me. Win 296 can be quite alarming when you are working at the top end. It can seem to get over-max on hot days. Win 296 is actually slightly more dense that LG, too. LG is more efficient, achieving the same velocities with less powder in shorter barrels AND seems more stable.

As far as accuracy goes, I've found both powders to have better accuracy than other limiting factors. In general, I believe this is the case with all powders. Having properly fit, consistent bullets and properly weighed charges with consistent ignition are far more important factors in my opinion.

As far as revolvers go, I don't use either powder in my S&W model 28. My experience is that in any non-sealed breech firearm if pressures get beyond 40k you will start to get alarming discharges from the gap. And the velocities are hardly any better than traditional powders like 2400, Blue Dot. In fact, in my 4" barreled smith, Win 296 just shoots out the front and it goes only nominally faster than Blue Dot. In standard barreled 357 mag revolver using 158s or heavier, I really think it is hard to improve on 2400 or Blue Dot.

[Moleman-]

I use alot of it in my 357AR (rimless 357Maximum at 223 pressures) , 44x1.6" and 44x1.8" rifles. This came up last fall so I got an endoscope and looked at the leade in those rifles that had been shot the most and have been keeping an eye on them as the round counts goes up. The leades looked about the same as when I'd cut them. The 357AR and 44x1.8" are all in the 50K-60K PSI range and were shot semiauto. Not a ton of rounds, but easily at 1800+ rounds my sons 357AR rifle likely has the most rounds through it. Likely about a third of the 1800+ rounds were W296, about a 1/3 were LilGun and the rest broken up between 2400, IMR4227, Bluedot, and a couple other powders. I'm happy with it and will continue to use it.

[curioushooter]

Hey, Moleman, check out Accurate 11FS powder. It may be an even better performer vs. Lil'Gun.

[303Guy]

With Lil'Gun my hornet got as hot, as quickly, as does a 303 Brit. Even the can got hot. Then I made a loading mistake and upped the already compressed charge by .1 grain from 13.6 to 13.7 grains and the barrel stayed cool! Go figure. I figured the can was getting hot from secondary burn so why it stayed cool as well is a mystery. For the hornet, there is no better performance powder but then the charge is heavily compressed which likely slows the initial burn rate. I won't use it in my 303's - pressures go sky high very quickly, giving me a stiff bolt lift with a mere 10 grs. It's weird stuff.

[hornady308]

I use Lil Gun in a 10" 357 Max Contender, a 357 Mag Handi rifle and a 357 Mag Rossi 92. These are deer hunting rigs where the emphasis is on slow shooting and top accuracy. I fire a round, wait a minute, then fire the next. My barrels don't get hot and I don't use Lil Gun in revolvers.

[45r]

I use lil gun in 450 bushmaster.
Half inch groups at 100 yards using 225 ftx with side crimp and then taper crimp into cannalure.
Highest velocity with lowest ES and excellent accuracy.
Don't do mag dumps so will keep using it.
My tromix barrel loves 38 grains seated to 2.12 and rem 7 1/2 primers
Tracking isn't needed most of the time.
I'd use it in my max but it likes imr 4227 the best for accuracy.

[curioushooter]

I want to update some info I have learned about Lil'Gun. It is actually more effecient with lower charges in 357 Max.

I was using 24 grains to push a 180 grain XTP (yes, I still use jacketed for deer, as I have never worked with hollow point cast bullets, and my observation of cast bullets in this caliber is they pass clean through deer at even moderate velocities) in a 10" contender. Was getting 1750-1800 FPS. To use this much LG you need to seat the bullet way out well beyond what would work in even a Ruger revolver (with long cylinders). I thought this was pretty nifty, as I was approaching 357 Herrett performance with a lot less powder.

Then I came across some Data in the Hornady Guide To reloading. They maxed their contender in max at 21.5, which is 90%+ load density when you crimp the 180 XTP at the groove (they have just one groove now, formerly the groove for revolvers). I figured what the heck, crimp it even though it is no needed in a Contender (mine is actually a G2).

Well, I was quite interested to see that I was still getting 1750-1800 FPS. I use CCI small rifle magnum primers with LG. Less powder, same velocity. AND SEEMINGLY BETTER ACCURACY. I was ringing an 8" gong from pretty much any range to 100 yards. Never did any bench work though.

Another powder that seem to have potential in the max is this Alliant 300-MP. If it can do in the Max what it does in a Mag, then it would surpass LG in my estimation. Wouldn't do it in a revolver though.

[Gohon]

Seeing how Lil'Gun is a medium burning powder three or four grains of your 24 grain load was most likely just blown out the end of a 10 inch barrel un-burned. In a rifle barrel you would most likely get a complete burn with that load and higher velocities. Just a thought...

[curioushooter]

That's my conclusion...that or not being crimped allowed to bullet to fly forward with the primer instead of corking up the little gun long enough to get lit.

[MT Gianni]

I want to update some info I have learned about Lil'Gun. It is actually more effecient with lower charges in 357 Max.

I was using 24 grains to push a 180 grain XTP (yes, I still use jacketed for deer, as I have never worked with hollow point cast bullets, and my observation of cast bullets in this caliber is they pass clean through deer at even moderate velocities) in a 10" contender. Was getting 1750-1800 FPS. To use this much LG you need to seat the bullet way out well beyond what would work in even a Ruger revolver (with long cylinders). I thought this was pretty nifty, as I was approaching 357 Herrett performance with a lot less powder.

Then I came across some Data in the Hornady Guide To reloading. They maxed their contender in max at 21.5, which is 90%+ load density when you crimp the 180 XTP at the groove (they have just one groove now, formerly the groove for revolvers). I figured what the heck, crimp it even though it is no needed in a Contender (mine is actually a G2).

Well, I was quite interested to see that I was still getting 1750-1800 FPS. I use CCI small rifle magnum primers with LG. Less powder, same velocity. AND SEEMINGLY BETTER ACCURACY. I was ringing an 8" gong from pretty much any range to 100 yards. Never did any bench work though.

Another powder that seem to have potential in the max is this Alliant 300-MP. If it can do in the Max what it does in a Mag, then it would surpass LG in my estimation. Wouldn't do it in a revolver though.

A former member did a lot with 300MP and the Max. It is on this site if you search for it.

[MT Chambers]

There are many good powders in this burning range, Lil Gun gave some pressure excursions when I tested it in my .300 Whisper, so now I'm testing CFE Black, but many others have worked well: 4100 1680 300MP, etc.

[curioushooter]

1680 I would think would need a heavier bullet than 180 two work well in Max. A 200-240 grainer. Think about that fellas... A 240 grain .357 bullet going 1600 FPS or greater from a handgun! 44 Mag recoil with better external ballistics and equal or better terminal performance with expansion.
I need to get some 300 MP...there are so many complaints of this powder though.

[NSB]

1680 I would think would need a heavier bullet than 180 two work well in Max. A 200-240 grainer. Think about that fellas... A 240 grain .357 bullet going 1600 FPS or greater from a handgun! 44 Mag recoil with better external ballistics and equal or better terminal performance with expansion.
I need to get some 300 MP...there are so many complaints of this powder though.
I've got pages of data recorded on a lot of different powders and bullets used in the 357max. This year I added one more, 1680 powder out of my MGM barrel. I'm getting right around 2300fps (chrono) with 158g XTP bullets and they shoot great. They do not blow up or fragment in any of the deer I shot although I only recovered one bullet from three deer. Two were complete pass-throughs with huge exit holes. It showed outstanding expansion, totally held together, and performed as good as you could ever want it to. I'm getting right around 1moa at 100 yards for five shots. So far, it's about the best I've found for the 357max. I do have some that rival it though. Note: 2400fps on card was estimate. Actual speed was 2287-2317fps.

233363

[curioushooter]

I am assuming those are the 158 XTP FPs (the ones with the tiny hole meant for higher velocity). That is (REALLY...basically 35 Remington!) impressive velocity, but that expanded bullet looks hardly any different the regular 158 XTP out of a 357 Mag revolver, which I have put trough a few deer and many 20L saline bladders filled with water. Seems like it did the job though!

I have no problem getting 1800 FPS with 180 grain XTPs using Lil'Gun in a 10" Contender. 21.5 grains will do it!

The thing with my Max barrel is that it has this enormous conical (really comical) throat. I am sure it is part of the reason it doesn't really shoot all that great (compared to my 30-20 barrel and 22LR barrel). My idea is to use longer cast bullets that will snug into lands. To be that long they are going to be heavy. The NOE 360-230-RF (ranch dog) (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_360-230-RF_(GC)_Sketch.Jpg) design looks really promising to me.

Problem is I can't find any AA1680 load data past 200 grains. I sent Accurate an email...maybe they can cough up a start load for me. Then again maybe not. It seems that AA1680 is about the optimal burn rate with that heavy bullet in a relatively (for a Contender) short barrel.

[NSB]

No, it's a regular XTP, not the FP. You can get another 200fps or so using the FP but I don't see the point. It's fast enough as it is. I've been using 180 XTP's for a while in the MAX, but wanted to see what the lighter bullets would do. After this year I think I'm going to stay with the 158's. I don't see any down side to them at all.

[curioushooter]

I used the regular 358 XTPs with some regularity in the 357 Herrett. It blew them apart when I ran it at full power out of a 14" barrel. Then I switched the FP XTPs (which are actually a tiny hollopoint with a very thick jacket). They held together much better but their expaded diameter was basically the same. In fact, the expaned diameter of all the 358 XTPs is basically the same no matter what velocity. I've never tried a 125 grain, but the 140, 158XTP, 158XTPFP, and 180 all end up the same...it's just that the 180 goes much deeper potentially.

From left: 140 grain XTP from 5" 357 Mag revolver, 158 grain XTP from same revolver, 180 grain XTP from 10" 357 Max Contender. Bullets recovered from water saturated plastic "hoosier clay." It is this which makes me think that the ideal weight for 357 Magnum is between 140-158 grains. The recoil from the 140s is less despite driving it 100 FPS faster or so. I keep my revolvers to the new 35k PSI limit, so the 140s are lucky to be going 1400 FPS. THe 158s are going around 1200-1250 usually. That 180 was being pushed by 21.5 grains of Lil'Gun and clocking 1750-1800 FPS. It goes to show you how sturdy the 180s are by comparison. At these velocities the 158 XTPs were leaving the jacket behind and the core would be another few inches in the clay. The 158XTPFP would stay together. Unfortunately I do not have one to show.
233562

[curioushooter]

I am assuming you mean the member 357Maximum right? I have two questions. One where is this thread where he lists load data for 300MP in the max. And two why was he banned?

[curioushooter]

Did some follow up testing with said bullets in 357 Magnum carbine. The 158 Grain Hornady XTPHP does not hold up well at high velocites in calibrated ballistic gelatin. The 158 Grain XTPFP is much better, but even that bullet sheds 20% of its weight at 1900 FPS.
I think the 180 grain Hornady XTP is the queen of the J-word .357s for deer. It holds together at the maximum velocities achievable with a 357 Mag carbine or 357 Max contender (1700-1800 FPS). It also expands all the way down to 1000FPS. It is also capable of consistently deep penetration of over 16" across the velocity range of 1000-1800 FPS. It also expands to a slightly greater diameter than either of the 158 offerings.
One thing to keep in mind is that more velocity doesn't always increase performance. It can cause such bullets to over-expand and not penetrate sufficiently or it can cause fragmentation.
At these velocities cast boolits work quite well. I've tested two a 170 grain WFN gas check and a 184 WFN gas check. The rub with cast boolits is that they have a narrower performance window, meaning the velocity at which they will not expand and the velocity where they will either under-penetrate or fragement is narrower. It seems that with basically any boolit with flattish nose profile like a SWC or a WFN will begin to expand around 1400 FPS depending upon alloy hardness (though to prevent leading a fairly hard alloy like 91-6-3 pb-sn-sb is needed). The upper limit to velocity I am not so sure of however more boolit weight is needed to ensure adequate penetration. They do hold together better than j-words as a rule as they are monolithic in construction. The downside is that copper jacket is hard and arrests the expansion. A cast boolit wants to turn itself inside out and if it isn't long enough it will.
The biggest problem I have so far is that cast boolits do not deliver first shot accuracy like jacketed do. I tend to get a shot a bit off from the cold barrel with cast (probably lube issue). The second and subsequent are on until fouling or some other issue degrades the accuracy. Wish I could find an all-weather loob that delivered first shot accuracy.

[NSB]

I've never blown one apart and I've shot a lot of deer with the .357mag and .357max......a LOT of deer. Never drew a tag for ballistic gel. How do you cook it?

[curioushooter]

How do you cook it? It's already cooked, and if you ever made Jello as a kid its the same process basically.

My bullcrap-o-meter is also pegging because I know the performance of the XTP very well. I've put plenty of XTPs through deer too, both the .357s and the .429s and I've blown many apart at rifle velocities. There is also a situation that isn't quite blowing up but the bullet sheds a lot of material and messes up meat. I like to see 99% retention personally, and cast boolits manage this easily. IMO its their principle advantage besides cost. The JHPs struggle usually getting around 80% retention when you push them near the design limit. And and the bottom end you usually don't get very impressive expansion (like .45" for a .357).

The exceptions are the 180 grain 357 XTPHP (rated to 1700 FPS) and the 158 grain XTPFP (rated to 1800FPS). These are the JHPs to use in a 357 Mag carbine or 357 Max handgun. Though I've never tested it the 158 Sierra JSP seems like it would work ok. I've found that 170 grain and heavier cast WFN boolits work well too. Their principle problem is that they have a much higher lower velocity limit. At around 1400 FPS cast boolits without a hollowpoint don't expand much or at all and tend to overpenetrate and made a very unimpressive initial wound zone. Cast hollopoints have their problem on the top side. They expand very well at low velocities but break apart at velocities above 1400 or so. 1600 seems to be certain. They don't have that jacket of hard copper keeping them together. I am going to experiment with copper-fortified boolit alloys next year.

Gel gives a much better way to compare because you can see it and it can be made deep enough to stop the bullet. It's also consistent. Sometimes you get bad data from actual kill shots on game because of poor shot placement or hitting a bone or something.

I don't understand the antagonism people have for gel. I suspect it is because they feel threatened that their pet load or projectile or caliber won't be found to be as good as they imagined and they would rather pretend it was great than actually know what is effective.

It was disappointment with performance that led me to undertake these experiments. What I have found is that much of the common knowledge regarding the matter is as erroneous.

[kingrj]

Thinking about this whole "burns too hot" thing, I am puzzled. First off the "thing" that accelerates the bullet down the barrel is pressure. That pressure curve can be short in the case of something like Bullseye or longer in the case of H110..It is the heat generated by the burning powder that creates this pressure "curve"....Looking at load data (I have never used Lil'gun my self) between Lil'gun and H110 I see charge weights very close in some cartridges with Lil'gun seeming to produce similar velocities with slightly lower charge weights but at the same peak pressures. This would indicate to me that Lil'gun has a slightlly higher specific energy level (probably a little more nitrogliycerin)..but if Lil'gun produces that much more heat than H110 for about the same charge weight the pressure generated would have to be much higher. I mean physics is physics...But the pressures and velocities are very close to those achieved with H110. So I don't get it....How can you shoot H110 in a gun all day long and the gun never get warm but a cylinder full of Lil'gun loads using the same bullet at the same velocity at the same peak pressure nearly melts the gun? I DO understand the errosion effect of powders and that was the main reason the Ruger .357 Max was taken off the market due to flame cutting of the top strap...but this heat thing is a mystery to me...I wish someone would please explain it...And if you can explain how Lil'gun violates the ideal gas law of PV=nRT then you need to start working on identifying dark matter! LOL!

[kingrj]

So..I guess nobody is going to help me out here..Look..it is ok if you don't understand physics..but please don't propogate old wives tales...

[curioushooter]

Kingrj...it's not that people don't understand physics.

There are two issues. One is that Hogdon doesn't tell us everything. Win296 (which I understand is identical to H110) and Lil'Gun are both powders I've worked with. They are pretty different too. LG is less dense, more granular, and does seem to heat up barrels for whatever reason more quickly. It was meant as a 410 shotgun powder (where I have used it and also in 357 Max and 357 Mag). I do not use it in revolvers for this reason and also because it's too slow to work well in revolvers. Win296 is on the edge of being too slow IMO. 2400 is the slowest powder I like to use in a revolver. Now in a 10" Contender LG is a fine powder and if it destroys the barrel I'll buy another one. It certainly has outperformed in velocity all other powders in 357 Max that I have tried. But it does heat them up faster...it just does. The difference is noticeable. LG is also a fine powder to use in a 410. I've not tried 300MP or Alliant 410 but LG is heads and shoulders above the slower shotgun magnum powders and 2400 in heavy loads with 3" shells.
The other issue is that there is basically no reason to bother really investigating the issue. It comes down to if you want to use LG or not given these suspicions, as it will probably take a long time to confirm if LG is really a barrel destroyer or not. I don't use it expect in 410 shotgun and 357 Max contender, which if it messes up the barrel it's not a big deal.

[whisler]

Kingrj: I think you are trying to compare the behavior of an ideal gas to something completely different; the production of a volume of gas by a chemical reaction - combustion. Just because similar weights of 2 different materials produce the same volume of gas during combustion does not mean that the heat of combustion is equal. As a matter of fact it would be rare that they were equal.

[kingrj]

Kingrj: I think you are trying to compare the behavior of an ideal gas to something completely different; the production of a volume of gas by a chemical reaction - combustion. Just because similar weights of 2 different materials produce the same volume of gas during combustion does not mean that the heat of combustion is equal. As a matter of fact it would be rare that they were equal.

Whisler I agree with you...combustion gasses are not ideal gasses but if, as you mentioned, 2 different materials produce the same relative volume (number of moles) of gas the heat of combustion AND the temp of that gas does NOT have to be the same..Unless you generate the same pressure curve and velocity for a given barrel length and bullet. If the moles of gas produced is the same and the performance of the load is the same then the temperatures of the gasses generated HAVE to be pretty much the same. What am I missing? Is there a chemical engineer in the house? I am an electrical engineer so I don't really know diddly about the bonding energy of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin but this is a very intersting problem.

[whisler]

I am a chemist. Admittedly an old retired chemist and my field of expertise was not fuel technology, but I still remember some of my chemistry.
The volume of gas produced does not indicate the number of moles because we are not talking about a homogeneous gas.(the term moles can apply to atoms or molecules or...)The volume of gas may be the same but the chemical composition of the gases themselves do not have to be the same and are dependent on the original composition of the material. We don't know the composition of the 2 materials in question or the differences in the gases produced.
And again I will state that the heat of combustion of the 2 different materials can be different and still produce the same volume of "gases" (not "gas" singular because it will not be homogeneous nor identical between the 2). If we were only heating up a gas to cause expansion, then an equal amount of expansion would imply an equal amount of heat applied to a given volume of the gas. But as I said we are not heating up an ideal gas but are generating a mixture of gases by combustion. Also we don't know how fast the peak pressure is generated which could also be a factor in the gun heating up.
I hope this helps.

[kingrj]

I am a chemist. Admittedly an old retired chemist and my field of expertise was not fuel technology, but I still remember some of my chemistry.
The volume of gas produced does not indicate the number of moles because we are not talking about a homogeneous gas.(the term moles can apply to atoms or molecules or...)The volume of gas may be the same but the chemical composition of the gases themselves do not have to be the same and are dependent on the original composition of the material. We don't know the composition of the 2 materials in question or the differences in the gases produced.
And again I will state that the heat of combustion of the 2 different materials can be different and still produce the same volume of "gases" (not "gas" singular because it will not be homogeneous nor identical between the 2). If we were only heating up a gas to cause expansion, then an equal amount of expansion would imply an equal amount of heat applied to a given volume of the gas. But as I said we are not heating up an ideal gas but are generating a mixture of gases by combustion. Also we don't know how fast the peak pressure is generated which could also be a factor in the gun heating up.
I hope this helps.

Thanks Whisler! As an EE I never took anything past chemistry 01 in college so I got a lot to learn! I also thought about the fact that even if you start with equal charge weights of Lil'gun and H110 and the Lil'gun charge does NOT burn as completely as the H110 then to produce the same pressures the Lil'gun charge HAS to burn hotter..I should have thought about that sooner before I shot my mouth off!

[Ramson222]

I have shot about a 1k rounds of 300 blackout loaded with 15grs of lilgun and a cast 155gr bullet. My 10.5 inch barrel still shoots into one ragged 1/2" hole at 50yrds when I use a 150gr Speer bullet. I dont wait much in between shot either.

[Newtire]

It is HOT burning, 12 shots from a .357 made the barrel so hot it could not be touched. The rest of mine will be for the 410. Freedom will not honor the warranty if you use it. It will erode steel.Might come in handy to warm up a shelter in a survival situation then?👹🥴. Actually, found it to be pretty useful in .357 mag. in a Rossi rifle I have. I'll check out the hot barrel thing tomorrow but so far, haven't noticed it. I'll pay close attention and bring my thermometer to check it against some other powders.

[technojock]

Before I had my 77-.22 Hornet rebarreled, I found that it would get more than twice as hot from a 3 shot group with Lil'Gun as with 2400 or 4227. I traded off all the Lil'Gun I had and I won't consider buying more...

Tony

[Newtire]

Here's what I got using after firing 10 shots .45 colt 265 gr. cast P/C bullet 19.2 gr. Lil' Gun, out of my thin barreled .454 Casull Rossi carbine. Just ahead of the chamber area said 75 degrees F. At the muzzle it was 88 degrees F. Ruger gp100 .357, 12 shots of 17.5 gr. Lil' Gun and cast P/C160 gr. Barrel was just warm. Same thing with 16 gr. 296. Don't know what to say, that's what I got.

[AlaskaMike]

Here's what I got using after firing 10 shots .45 colt 265 gr. cast P/C bullet 19.2 gr. Lil' Gun, out of my thin barreled .454 Casull Rossi carbine. Just ahead of the chamber area said 75 degrees F. At the muzzle it was 88 degrees F. Ruger gp100 .357, 12 shots of 17.5 gr. Lil' Gun and cast P/C160 gr. Barrel was just warm. Same thing with 16 gr. 296. Don't know what to say, that's what I got.

Good to see this testing--thanks Newtire.

I'm one of those whose personal experience was that my .44 mag Rossi 92 carbine barrel heated up disurbingly, and I won't use Lil' Gun for anything.

However, your testing of your lot of Lil' Gun and 296 back to back, and showing no noticeable difference temperature-wise really makes me wonder if the formulation for Lil' Gun has changed at some point. My pound of Lil' Gun is probably over 15 years old now, and I'm assuming yours may be much newer than that.

Just one thought on what might explain the difference.

[Newtire]

Good to see this testing--thanks Newtire.

I'm one of those whose personal experience was that my .44 mag Rossi 92 carbine barrel heated up disurbingly, and I won't use Lil' Gun for anything.

However, your testing of your lot of Lil' Gun and 296 back to back, and showing no noticeable difference temperature-wise really makes me wonder if the formulation for Lil' Gun has changed at some point. My pound of Lil' Gun is probably over 15 years old now, and I'm assuming yours may be much newer than that.

Just one thought on what might explain the difference.

That may well be since the Lil' Gun I have is no older than 5 years.