Open top Colts and clones

[44man]

Biggest junk ever. I have one that I cleaned. made in Italy. Can't set the wedge to the lip or will not turn. Zero gap and looking down the bore, it does not line up with the throats.
Walker model. Seen real Colts the same. Seen barrels pointing up. Barrels are higher then the throats. Barrel angles to the chambers are never right. No way this gun will shoot. None I owned never did either.

[Walkingwolf]

I have two uberti 51 navy conversions. Both are extremely accurate, but have tight BC gaps. With smokeless that means more consistent accuracy. My 5.5 inch is one of he most accurate guns I have.

The gap can be a problem with black powder, but the gap can be opened up by a reputable gunsmith.

[bedbugbilly]

Sooooo . how about a little more information about just what you are talking about in regards to the maker, etc.? What have you looked at that is so bad and what have you owned that is "Biggest junk ever"?

A lot of open tops have been made over the years - not only C & B but conversions, etc. ASM, Uberti, etc. To classify them all as "junk" is like saying, "I had a Ford with a flat tire and I'd never buy a piece of junk like a Ford again."

Over the past 50 + years, I have owned a lot of "open top" C & B revolvers - some good, some not so good. I own three different Ubertis now - a '51 navy which is "open top" as well as a SAA Cattleman and a Bisley. All three are excellent revolvers, high quality, good fit and finish and all are accurate. I also own some Piettas - and they are good as well.

In terms of the wedge not fitting properly . . . Uberti is known for short arbors. That tight wedge of yours and no cylinder gap is not that hard of a "fix". Neither is "tuning" one.

There are a number of members here who have and shoot Colt clone open tops - R & M conversions, 1871/72 open tops, etc. They like 'em and get good accuracy out of them. One thing that always is hard for me to understand is the criticism from someone who is used to shooting "modern" wheel guns - especially those with adjustable sights - and they get a C & B or a cartridge open top and claim it's inaccurate. Shooting revolvers where the rear sight is a notch in the hammer - or in case of the 71/72 OTs where the sight is mounted at the breech of the barrel is a whole lot different - as is a SAA. You have to learn your revolver and where it hits with you sight picture and different loads. Not to mention practicing at different shooting distances besides the normal.

But, you seem to be complaining more about the "mechanical" aspects. So please . . . be a little more explicit in just what make and model you are talking about. Did you buy it new? If so, and you were dissatisfied with it, did you return it for an exchange or warranty work? Was your "experience" with just one revolver that you have owned or have you owned more than one . . and if so . . . again, what make and model?

Not trying to get in a conflict here . . . but it's pretty easy to make a "broad remark" but not give specifics.

[Rebel Dave]

ALL Uberti Open Tops need the arbor Length adjusted, The arbors are to short. If you try and "pound" the the wedge in you are just making it worse, this will not help, you can actually tilt the bbl up doing this. After you get the proper arbor length, then you can work on barrel/cylinder gap, which is best at .003 to .008 inch. After that you can do some work on the timming. There is an ole cowboy site where there is an excellent tutorial on open top revolver arbor adjustment, and barrel cyl gap, and tuning. The site name eludes me right now, but the man doing the tutorial is named " pettyfogger". You can probably do a search for it, it will really help out. I can shoot my open tops all day with no trouble.

Rebel Dave

[44man]

Biggest problem is the throats do not align to the bore. Even with the wedge out, loose. The marks on the gun are S Marco Gardone V Brescia. Looking down the bore with a strong light shows it is far off. The Colt armies I had were the same and those barrels pointed up just slipping on the arbors.
They are not made like original Colts. The chambers are higher then the bores on the .36 and this one I have here.

[Maven]

"The marks on the gun are S Marco Gardone...." 44man

44man, Those marks = Armi San Marco, whose quality control (poor machining, soft parts) was iffy. However, there were some VG ASM guns, but yours, it seems, is not among them. If you can obtain & fit new parts, you may be able to improve of it, but it's a question of availability, cost, effort, and your time. Goon's Gun Works is an option, btw, but that's minimally $165.

[44man]

I made a bore size range rod and it clunks on the cylinder. Using a light I see more then 1/16" at one side and the bottom. might be close to 3/32".
No forcing cone so a ball would have the side sheared off. Cylinder is tight so it can't move.
I cut the barrel end to give me a .003" gap and can put the wedge in now. Been debating a forcing cone.
I sure will have to time the gun. Not sure I can move the lock that far and close it up.
Lost cause, looking it over, if I move the cylinder enough, the hammer nose will not go in the cylinder.

[44man]

Well, it is not mine so money will not be spent.
The navy has no markings at all, not even the caliber, no idea who made it.

[Three44s]

I guess if I ever go to the black side, I envision a top strap with the 1858 Rem being at the top of that heap?

There are just some designs that are better falling through the cracks of history ........ just my opinion.

Best regards

Three 44s

[44man]

I can see them being good if machined right.
The .36 is better but has strange measurements. I slugged the bore at .3725" and the slug will not enter the throats, should be lapped.

[Wayne Smith]

I guess if I ever go to the black side, I envision a top strap with the 1858 Rem being at the top of that heap?

There are just some designs that are better falling through the cracks of history ........ just my opinion.

Best regards

Three 44s

The very best, I understand, was the Rogers and Spencer - late war and never issued. My Euroarms copy is very good indeed.

[Beagle333]

I have a bunch of open tops. ('cause I don't like Remmies) Some are great, some needed timing or cleaning up some edges or burrs, but my Uberti Walker is wonderful. Never had any problem with it and never had to adjust a thing. Been shooting it since 1990. 8-)
I had a few ASM pistols, but I always got em in bulk deals and never shot any. I always traded em off. But I do like the Pietta and Uberti open tops. Everybody makes a lemon sometimes though.

[45 Dragoon]

I believe it's what you have to start with and what you want done. If you have a good revolver that has the ability to be put in spec., you can have an open top that can easily hold its own with any modern cartridge S.A.

Thank goodness all cars aren't judged by a Yugo!!

As far as my service is concerned, ( thanks for the mention Maven!!) it's $165.00 and it's quite a bit more than just an "easy" tuning!! If my name was Eddie Janis, it'd cost you about a $1,000. (be glad it's Mike!! Lol!!)

Mike

[Paul_R]

Mike is the man. Working his magic on my Uberti Walker and Pietta Sheriff as we speak!

[joatmon]

Mike is the tune up the same for a cartage type open top convertion??
Thanks Aaron

[rondog]

I had an Italian made Dragoon once that was like that. Cycling the cylinder from chamber to chamber and looking down the barrel with a bore light, it was freakin' SCARY! I never tried to shoot it, not even with just powder and wads for blanks.

I ended up giving it to a guy that had one of those "Old West" photo studios to use for a prop. I warned him in no uncertain terms that it was unsafe and to NEVER, EVER try to shoot it. That's why it's free.

I now have two Pietta 1851 Navies and an Uberti Walker, and honestly, I plan to just shine 'em up and put 'em on the wall in shadowboxes. Shooting C&B pistols is very disappointing to me, and far more of a PITA than I ever dreamed it would be. Just ain't my thing. I'm sure glad I'll never have to fight off a bunch of Injuns, Rebels or Yankees with one, I'll tell ya that!

[44man]

They are fun to shoot and hunt with and if I ever buy another it will be a known brand.
problem is not many are cleaned properly if you get used.
The Ruger Old Army was packed with powder residue and RUST, could hardly cock it. It is a blue one and took a long time to clean up.
Grip panels should be removed and the whole gun washed out after use. Then spray it out with Barricade or such. Lube pins, etc.

[rondog]

They are fun to shoot and hunt with and if I ever buy another it will be a known brand.
problem is not many are cleaned properly if you get used.
The Ruger Old Army was packed with powder residue and RUST, could hardly cock it. It is a blue one and took a long time to clean up.
Grip panels should be removed and the whole gun washed out after use. Then spray it out with Barricade or such. Lube pins, etc.

Another reason I'm not terribly enthused about them, I HATE cleaning guns! And these especially. Can't hunt with C&B revolvers in CO either, illegal.

Oh well, they'll look good in shadowboxes on the wall someday.

[bedbugbilly]

I think your biggest issue is the brand that you have. ASM was very iffy for a long time and as mentioned, internals wee soft and they were know for it. Not that they wouldn't work, but over time you could have issues with them. On the other hand, ASM did make some very nice revolvers as well. I just sold a 1861 Navy that was an ASM - it was NIB and one of the nicest C & Bs I've seen - great fit and finish, great wood, great timing and a nice crisp action.

44man . . . is there any chance (if you know the history of the one you are talking about) that the cylinder is not original to the pistol? Not that it couldn't have been made with the bore not lining up with the chambers . . . but sometimes folks mix and match and then sell . . . . I'm guessing though, that if there is a cobbled up forcing cone, the quality of the rest of the piece would pretty much match. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses and get something that is noted for higher quality.

I once looked at a used ASM Richards & Mason conversion. On the outside . . . it looked great . . . BUT . . .it pretty much had the same issues you are experiencing - out of time and a bore that looked like it had been bored catty wampus. No wonder it had been traded in.

Not long after I passed on the ASM R & M, I stopped in at Cabelas as I had a hankering real bad to get a Uberti 1849 Pocket Model. The Cabelas I stopped at only had one and it was in the case. Uberti had and has an excellent reputation . . . but when I checked the '49 Pocket out, it was the worst action I had ever seen in a C & B pistol . . and I have owned a lot of the over the past 50 years. The '49 felt like someone had dropped a load of travel in the action . . . gritty beyond belief. The salesman thought it was great and couldn't understand why I didn't want it and why others had passed on it (he was fool enough to tell me that). y advice to him was to send it back to Uberti and ask for another one as that one would NEVER sell. That is the only bad experience I have had with a Uberti.

I hope you can get it to at least function decently. Sometimes, it's like dressing up a pig in dress and taking her to the Prom . . . no matter how pretty she might be, when you take her home and go to say goodnight . . . you're still kissing a pig.

Good luck to you!

[45 Dragoon]

Joatmon,
Yes, the tuning is the same. The arbor problem is present with the cartridge open tops as well.

Mike

[Paul_R]

Mind if I gloat? I've been wanting one of these Pietta 1851 US Marshals for a while. I just bought the one on the right:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h312/pjriss/marshalls_1.jpg

The other one is on GB now.....

Edit: BTW, I've never had a "bad" C&B revolver.

[KCSO]

The wedges on the new guns are fitted so you only tap them in part way usually the catch won't go through till you have a lot of rounds down the barrel. This keeps them shooting longer. For target use you put a shim between the barrel and the cylinder and tap the wedge till you get the headspace you want say .004 or so. I have worked on shot or owned 40 or more cap and ball Colt clones and some are better than others but most can be set up to shoot and shoot well, 2-3" ay 25 yards. Currently in the stable I have 4 of my own and all will shoot a possible at the 25 yard bullseye target. All have been resighted to be dead on at that distance and they go hunting too.

They are different than modern guns and require a working knowledge and a different approach.

[45 Dragoon]

Hmmmm . . . . .
The wedge is designed to be tapped in (under tension) which will remove the clearances between the arbor and the arbor hole and solidly locate the end of the arbor against the bottom of the arbor hole ( this also gives you the same revolver each time you re assemble it). This is why the arbor length is what dictates the barrel/cylinder clearance. I've fixed a few more than 40 . . . . . .
If you can lock up the cylinder by tapping the wedge in "too far", the arbor is too short.
Shooting with a "loose" wedge will damage the slot in the barrel, stretch the arbor and hammer the wedge (sometimes making removal extremely hard). Also, allowing the bbl/cyl clearance to be excessive ( more than .003" in my opinion) will turn the cylinder into a slide hammer, bashing the recoil ring, cylinder and f.c. end of the barrel.


This is what happens when modern "engineers" decide cutting corners on something designed by "real" engineers is . . . . . ok. It's ok for wall hangers.


Mike

[44man]

I cut a forcing cone in the barrel, just enough for a .446 ball to go in halfway. I slugged the grooves at .445"-.446" and a .451" ball should work fine. Should be better then shearing the side of a ball. I didn't slug the chambers yet so don't know if a ball will be sized down. Have to remove a nipple to get a slug back out.
Pete picked up the other guns I cleaned and fixed but left the Walker here to shoot.
Why do they not cut a cone in them? Many have under size chambers too.174499 This is the result. I will get back after shooting. I used an 11 ° cutter and had to make a pilot bushing. Odd size bore. Made the bushing to tap in snug. Super clean cut and almost no lapping with 600 Clover.
Much to do about them but not much different then any revolver.

[44man]

The catch should pop up on the other side with all fits good. They did not put the catch there to stay inside. But most clones do not have the arbor right either. Most too short. Ideal is contact at the end when seated. Not hardly!

[Paul_R]

I use a ball gauge to measure chambers. I would expect them to be undersized and tapered like any walker

[44man]

I use a ball gauge to measure chambers. I would expect them to be undersized and tapered like any walker
Never gave it a thought, thanks. used mine and got .445" -.446" and should be good to go.

[KCSO]

The catch will wear in with use or you can easily hand fit it. If the wedge is as tight as it should be the catch adds very little to holding the gun together.

[45 Dragoon]

The "catch" on the end of the wedge spring is to help keep you from loosing the wedge when you strip the revolver for cleaning or for whatever need. The spring doesn't do anything as far as holding the wedge in place. Friction holds the wedge in place.

44 Man,
They don't cut forcing cones because ball shooters typically have the rifling immediately inside the barrel. When a ball "jumps the gap" you don't want the ball to be allowed to tilt which would present a "less desirable" position. The forcing cone is best for conical bullets where the bullet would be entering the bore while still leaving the chamber.
The first gen 1860 Army I was allowed to review and photograph had rifling immediately in the bore.
Good job though on the Walker (above)!! Heck, if it's a newer one, the fast twist and the f.c. would probably make for a good conical shooter. Look into the Kaido bullets.


Mike

[44man]

The Ruger has a cone that looks exactly like the cut I made. If I remember the Remington has a cone but I don't have one here.
Why not the open top?
Yes the ball will be deformed because there is not enough cylinder movement to clock, hammer in the slot, etc. Just hoping it will form to the bore without cutting.
Interesting subject but the gun is so bad there is nothing to lose. You would think the investment in machining, steel, etc, they could do something right.
It reminds me of some Spanish guns where gnomes chiseled out rifling! Our people made rifling machines out of wood and made perfect guns.
Holy smokes, they tunneled under mountains from both ends and met in the center a few centimeters off.
I agree a brand name is best and Sam Colt would not allow a gun like this to leave the floor.

[44man]

The Remington is not perfect either. Cylinders are small and chambers are close to the gap. A boolit will be cut from the gap but a RB survives OK. But lube will be blown away.

[johnson1942]

have no idea what yours is but i have 3 opentops and one 1875 remington made by uberti and they are very very well made and will easily put a round into the center of a playing card at 15 yards off hand every time. saw none of the problems you have. i had to tighten the loading gate screws on two of them when i got them. 2 are 38 specials one is a 45 long colt and the rem is a 44/40. they come apart easily and go back together easily and every thing lines up perfectly. sorry about yours.

[44man]

This is Pete's gun and he has the Remington, long barrel buffalo hunter too and has taken some deer with it. Shoots great. But a boolit did not and is when I found they were cut so he stays with a RB.
Amazing how the old guns will kill deer. Pete gets over 1100 fps from
the Remington and I get the same from the Old Army. His because of the barrel and mine from holding 41 gr of Swiss FFFG. Have to love BP and pure lead!

[Harter66]

Trust in 45 Dragoons advice I have seen and handled probably 8-9 of his worked over guns and shot 1 . They are superb pieces. His advice is free and dead on. I don't know how many he has done but I do know a fellow that is amazed every time he gets to shoot 1 and he has probably shot 25-30.

This thread has been filled with little reminders for the new to me Dragoon that I think was only shot enough to pit the bbl from failure to store properly .

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks RB!!!

Mike

[44man]

Trust in 45 Dragoons advice I have seen and handled probably 8-9 of his worked over guns and shot 1 . They are superb pieces. His advice is free and dead on. I don't know how many he has done but I do know a fellow that is amazed every time he gets to shoot 1 and he has probably shot 25-30.

This thread has been filled with little reminders for the new to me Dragoon that I think was only shot enough to pit the bbl from failure to store properly .
Maybe so but he could not fix this without a new cylinder.

[Harter66]

Maybe .
Might be such a thing as C&B just isn't a thing that will work for you. I've run across things like that in life .
I don't like Colts (in this type) and yet for whatever reason I keep winding up with them .

ASM is tough these days parts are scarce and don't interchange well. The safe bet is to have 3-5 to keep 2 shooting. Cylinder alignment we can't do a lot about and you have probably done the best that can be done .

I didn't see where you specify a model . Walker ,Dragoon or Army .
I'm sure the obvious has been looked at but does the frame and bbl number match ? If it does then the next step is to look at the cylinder. Dragoons and Walkers I can't help with but an Army I can take some measures on or maybe even lend it to see if it is just poor machine work on 1 side or the other .
Illfitting guns are a monumental pain and lead to frustration. ..... Next thing you know the guy you dumped it on is shooting groups and did some stupid little fifty cent thing to it.

Pm me if you want to look at a "Polish blue print".

[johnson1942]

guys, i should have said also that i shoot no bullets in my 4 uberties. i use roundballs in the 38 specials and the long colt and in the 44/40. cheaper to shoot, better penetration and again rattle snake head accuracy. that ball can be pushed and with a wad behind the ball, no leading.

[44man]

No reason an open top can't shoot but it is the hardest to make right. Hardest to fix too.

[45 Dragoon]

Ah, it ain't that hard once ya get used to it !!

Actually, once you have your "parameters", you just do the same every time.


The Ruger has one because it's a Blk.Hwk. barrel and they tell you to use a .457 ball which when loaded will have a longer bearing surface (more like a conical) to allow the faster twist of the Ruger to do its job.


Mike

[44man]

Ah, it ain't that hard once ya get used to it !!

Actually, once you have your "parameters", you just do the same every time.


The Ruger has one because it's a Blk.Hwk. barrel and they tell you to use a .457 ball which when loaded will have a longer bearing surface (more like a conical) to allow the faster twist of the Ruger to do its job.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com (http://www.goonsgunworks.com)
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
The twist on the Ruger IS a problem. Too fast for a RB when velocity is high. Shoots best with 20 gr and filler but a full chamber turns the gun into a 20-25 yard deer gun.
Bullets shoot OK but they limit powder to around 32 gr. I never chronographed a bullet. I made a mold for a bullet and my friend loves them in his 1911 too.
Mine should fit the Walker too.

[Blackwater]

A friend of mine in VA has taken a couple of deer with his Ruger Old Army. But that boy can SHOOT, and a good shot with a .22 LR will eat venison. Can't recall whether he used RB or conical. One fellow I know uses .452" SWC's in his, and likes them. Hard to seat, but he's pretty stubborn, and gets them in there. Not sure what brand he uses, but the hard ones would likely place extra strain on the loading lever, I'd think?

My own open tops are accurate enough for what they are. That notch in the hammer spur for a rear sight isn't optimum, especially with my eyes as they are now, but it's amazing what they'll do when you find the right load, lube and projectile. Very much fun guns!The front sights (pointy rods, mostly) are my bugaboo with them, but what's life without some challenges, eh?

[Texas by God]

A friend gave me a .44 brass frame C&B Navy type; the only markings are SM Black Powder Only Italy. It had ignition issues till I noticed casting lines were slowing down the hammer. Fixed that then noticed it was very accurate but sighted for 100+ yds. I dovetailed sights (shallow) into the barrel and inside 20 yds it will shoot with any handgun I own. I have taken squirrels with it - I want to use it for spring turkey. I don't know or care who made it- but it Ain't Junk. Best, Thomas

[35 Whelen]

Nothing at all wrong with this one, and it is amazingly accurate. Next time I shoot it I'll snap a few pictures of the targets.



http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Mason%20Richards%203_zpsiitgq2qq.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Mason%20Richards%203_zpsiitgq2qq.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/MasonRichards4-red_zpsc041041c.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/MasonRichards4-red_zpsc041041c.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/MasonRichards10_zps85864468.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/MasonRichards10_zps85864468.jpg.html)

35W

[45 Dragoon]

I'll bet if you dropped a small washer in the arbor hole you'd be able to assemble it. I'm not sure if Uberti - ever- made one correct (by accident maybe?). I had a '72 OT in .44 Colt and an extra .44 special cyl. Of course, I was unaware of the arbor problem back then but, I think I could lock the cylinder up if the wedge was tapped in too far. Now, I'd be surprised if any of them are correct. If one model is correct, why not all? Or most? Or at least a few? I have yet to work on an Uberti o.t. that has a correct setup.


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com (http://www.goonsgunworks.com)
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks