Need Help!! - Breaking in a vintage Win 94

[Dimner]

Hello gang.

I recently acquired a never been shot 1969 Winchester 94 - Theodore Roosevelt Commemorative. This is the version with the 26" barrel. I'm trying to get this thing to shoot and it's just disappointing. Oh and just so everyone is on the same page, there were 50k+ of these made, and are not really collectible. This one didn't have the original box or anything. I did not buy it for collecting, I bought it because of the configuration of the 26" octagonal barrel and the lack of the barrel band.

I have high hopes for this rifle. I was hoping for a bit more speed out of the 26" barrel. I was very surprised to find that 150gr Remington CoreLokt Soft Points actually are much faster than I expected with this gun. We are talking ~2450 to 2500 fps. In my marlin 336, those loads barely make it to 2200fps.

In addition to the speed, I am looking to get increased accuracy from the rifle. I'm not looking for 1MOA or anything. Just something reasonable. 1" groups at 50 yards. 2-3" at 100 yards.

Where I am at with factory loads is 3.5" at 50yards. This is with a scope on 12x. Rock solid rest on a bench. I deal shooting conditions. Letting the barrel cool every 2 shots. So I tried some Sierra 150gr Boat tail spitzers. Yes I loaded them one at a time. Still got 2.5 to 3" groups. The reason for the jacketed loads is I'm trying to get a base line for the accuracy of the rifle before I switch to my cast loads.

My Sierra loads were at various charges of 31-33gr of H335 and 31-32.5gr of H4895 -

I have ran a little over 100 jacketed bullets through it so far. For the first 30 rounds I did the mind tormenting "clean for copper fouling" process after every round for the first 10 rounds, then after every 4 until the 30th.

So that's where I am at. I am stumped. I know this rifle can do better. How can i get it there? Is there some break in process I'm missing?

[w30wcf]

Dimner,
I have owned one of those rifles for about 20 years now. The first thing I did was to slug the barrel and found that the groove diameter was .310" in addition to having some faint tooling marks. I never fired any jacketed bullets in mine just started with cast bullets sized to .311" diameter with which it grouped aok.

I would suggest slugging the barrel to see what the groove diameter is. You might also try some heavier jacketed bullets which have more of a footprint in the barrel.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[tja6435]

May want to look into a bore lapping kit from LBT. It's done wonders for one of my 357 rifles that wouldn't shoot any bullet well.

[Dimner]

Dimner,
I have owned one of those rifles for about 20 years now. The first thing I did was to slug the barrel and found that the groove diameter was .310" in addition to having some faint tooling marks. I never fired any jacketed bullets in mine just started with cast bullets sized to .311" diameter with which it grouped aok.

I would suggest slugging the barrel to see what the groove diameter is. You might also try some heavier jacketed bullets which have more of a footprint in the barrel.

Good luck,
w30wcf


Thanks forchiming in w30WCF... When I saw this rifle up for sale, I immediately thought what you have written using the TR94 (or was it a Buffalo Bill 94). I'm hoping someday it will be near what you are getting out of yours. I'll give it another really good cleaning with copper solvent and then slug the bore.

I have about 200 test rounds loaded of 3118, 311041, and 311316 sized to .311. I had cast and sized those bullets for a previous gun. I would be shooting and testing these already but wanted to get my base line of accuracy. Maybe a baseline is not needed. I'm 100% okay with never using (any more) jacketed rounds in this gun.




May want to look into a bore lapping kit from LBT. It's done wonders for one of my 357 rifles that wouldn't shoot any bullet well.

I'll look into that if my barrel slugs out at .308. I do have some JB bore paste, perhaps I should use that first.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, for those unaware, lever guns with 2-piece stocks should be shot from a benchrest differently than rifles with a 1-piece stock.

While YMMV, I obtain optimal accuracy by ensuring the NO part of the rifle's metal of wooden parts touch anything except a portion of my body.

That mean not resting the barrel/magazine on a front bag/rest, and ditto for the buttstock.

I accomplish this @ the front via placing the back of my forward hand atop the front rest, palm up, and firmly grasp the forend while pulling it down & back towards my shoulder during the shot(s).

I also do not use a rear rest, simply grasping the wrist of the stock very firmly with my trigger hand, letting my trigger finger wave freely until shooting, and likewise pulling the buttstock straight back into my shoulder during the shot(s) - insuring that the toe of the buttstock does not touch the benchtop.

Shoot straight & have a great time.



.

[John Boy]

I'll look into that if my barrel slugs out at .308.
Got a '94 Win Centennial 66' in 30-30. Bore is .300 / .306 ... shoot lead 0.308 bullet reloads = accurate
Most accurate bullets out to 500 yds are the Ideal 311291 & 311413, both resized to .308
http://www.three-peaks.net/images/311291_170g.gifhttp://www.three-peaks.net/images/311413_169g.gif

[robg]

.

FWIW, for those unaware, lever guns with 2-piece stocks should be shot from a benchrest differently than rifles with a 1-piece stock.

While YMMV, I obtain optimal accuracy by ensuring the NO part of the rifle's metal of wooden parts touch anything except a portion of my body.

That mean not resting the barrel/magazine on a front bag/rest, and ditto for the buttstock.

I accomplish this @ the front via placing the back of my forward hand atop the front rest, palm up, and firmly grasp the forend while pulling it down & back towards my shoulder during the shot(s).

I also do not use a rear rest, simply grasping the wrist of the stock very firmly with my trigger hand, letting my trigger finger wave freely until shooting, and likewise pulling the buttstock straight back into my shoulder during the shot(s) - insuring that the toe of the buttstock does not touch the benchtop.

Shoot straight & have a great time.



.
That's the way I shoot mine to get the best accuracy

[Blackwater]

+ 1 more with Pietro. Many guns with 2-pc stocks can also be sensitive, and vary group size, simply from where you grab or rest them. I like fairly firm bags with bolt guns, but try to keep a significantly softer one for rest shooting any gun with 2-pc. stocks.

Barrels vibrate when shot, and ANY inconsistency in the fit of stock or forend to receiver can and typically will make for larger groups. Two other things you might consider trying to get it to perform really well in accuracy, are bedding the stock and forend to the barrel. All this requires is "skin bedding" to make sure the stock/receiver joint acts as a single unit, and always provides the same support for the total unit of the gun.

If you bed them, though, be SURE to coat any place on the outer stock where the epoxy bedding compound might ooze out, so it can be just flicked off when fully cured, without having to damage the finish. Be VERY sure you put release agent (I recommend Paste Was or shoe polish rather than the stuff that comes in the kits labeled "release agent") ANYWHERE and EVERYWHERE that the epoxy might touch, to ensure you don't glue it together! This is crucial, and don't forget that the compound CAN and likely WILL ooze out toward the magazine tube, so the tube needs to be THOROUGHLY coated with the release agent as well. Bedding a levergun CAN be tricky if you've never done it before, but with lots of forethought, and care, it can be rather easily done.

It's NOT something to EVER try to short-cut, though, or you CAN and odds are MAY, glue it permanently together. And that is NO fun a'tall!!! Don't ask how I learned that, OK? :bigsmyl2:

[Dimner]

I slugged the bore. I'm at .309" So kinda inconclusive results. Could be part of the problem, might not be.


I'll try a little different hold at the range and see if things improve. I've not owned a win 94 before, but have had other two piece stocks. Marlin 336 shot just fine, and I have 3 savage 24s (although not lever actions of course) and those shot fine with the method I am holding.

Also, I'm going to break down the rifle completely and see if I can find any stock stress points. Is there a way I can fire this without the magazine tube and or front end? Remember, the Teddy Roosevelt is a half mag and has no barrel band.

I'll try another dozen or two jacketed bullets (170's this time) with the advise on holding differently and see what happens. Then I'll probably flush out all the copper and go strictly lead and see where I get.

[Mk42gunner]

My first thought was the magazine is binding, putting pressure on the barrel. I was thinking of the 20" full magazine ones, (I had forgotten about the long barreled rifle versions), but the short mag could be doing it too.

You should be able to remove the magazine and reinstall the fore end for testing purposes.

Robert

[Dimner]

So I did some work yesterday on the TR94. The fore-end wood was a little tight on the barrel. I couldn't fit a dollar bill between the barrel and the wood. So I sanded the inside down some. All is good now with the wooden part of the fore-end.

There is still a bit more barrel contact with the nickel fore-end than I would like. Below is a picture of the type of fore-end I'm working on. It's not super tight, but the metal on the inside surface of the cap on both the left and right side is riding the barrel a bit.

174087

Should I be concerned? I would like to smooth down the inside of the cap some, but I am not sure how that works with nickel plating. Can I just take a diamond hone or a very fine file to it? Will this cause the plating to start chipping or corroding?

The magazine tube plug screw seems to sit in its hole in the barrel just fine. It's not bottoming out in the hole under the barrel, so I think there are no pressure issues there.

[Scharfschuetze]

Where I am at with factory loads is 3.5" at 50yards. This is with a scope on 12x.

I have no suggestions other than perhaps snugging up the wood evenly to moderate barrel vibrations if your current efforts at relieving the fore end don't work.

Some rifles are recalcitrant at best and some never do work out as intended. I hope you find a solution.

By the way and just out of curiosity, can you post a picture of how you mounted your scope and say what mount you used?

[Dimner]

I have no suggestions other than perhaps snugging up the wood evenly to moderate barrel vibrations if your current efforts at relieving the fore end don't work.

Some rifles are recalcitrant at best and some never do work out as intended. I hope you find a solution.

By the way and just out of curiosity, can you post a picture of how you mounted your scope and say what mount you used?

I can post a pic later tonight, but while at work I can provide detail of what I used. I'm using an "Ironsight" side mount made for the Winchester 94. I did not purchase the mount, I received it in a trade for some other things. I have never heard of the brand before, but it seems generally sturdy and locks up snug with loc-tite and all.

I do have a plan to shoot some 25 yard groups with just the iron sights that came with the rifle and see if I do any better. Perhaps the mount is the problem.

[Scharfschuetze]

I can post a pic later tonight, but while at work I can provide detail of what I used. I'm using an "Ironsight" side mount made for the Winchester 94. I did not purchase the mount, I received it in a trade for some other things. I have never heard of the brand before, but it seems generally sturdy and locks up snug with loc-tite and all.

I do have a plan to shoot some 25 yard groups with just the iron sights that came with the rifle and see if I do any better. Perhaps the mount is the problem.

You guessed it Dimmer. The reason I asked is that sometimes a scope mount or the scope itself can be the culprit in excessively large groups.

[w30wcf]

Do Not Try to remove the magazine tube hanger by tapping on it .... It is soldered on to the barrel.
You could also try resting the barrel just forward of the mag tube on the front rest.

w30wcf

[OverMax]

170 gr Remingtons will target better than their 150s. Winchesters 94s do not like speed but they do like heavier bullet weights up to 202 gr.__ 335 use is OK.__ 4895 is to slow. My preferred powder for all bullet weighs in 30-30 & 32 special is >AA-2230.
No need to slug your barrel .310 or .311 dia cast will work just fine in your rifle. Hopefully your mold purchase will be one having G/check ability. NOE makes better than average aluminum molds. Ranch Dog designs in NOE bullet molds are above the typical purchased molds in performance.
Poor grouping currently seen with factory ammo.. Excessive speed & bullet weight is my guess..

[Dimner]

170 gr Remingtons will target better than their 150s. Winchesters 94s do not like speed but they do like heavier bullet weights up to 202 gr.__ 335 use is OK.__ 4895 is to slow. My preferred powder for all bullet weighs in 30-30 & 32 special is >AA-2230.
No need to slug your barrel .310 or .311 dia cast will work just fine in your rifle. Hopefully your mold purchase will be one having G/check ability. NOE makes better than average aluminum molds. Ranch Dog designs in NOE bullet molds are above the typical purchased molds in performance.
Poor grouping currently seen with factory ammo.. Excessive speed & bullet weight is my guess..


Thanks for the info. I have a bunch of molds already in the 30 cal range. But I really hope this rifle does well with lighter bullets, with the caveat of lighter bullets at very low speeds. I have been able to get my Savage 24 30-30 over 20ga to shoot really well with a 311008 with 5.1 grains of unique. .75" groups at 50 yards. I'm hoping to do the same with the TR94. Or as a 2nd place use my 311316. That savage does great with 6.2 grains of trail boss and the 311316.

As for full loads, I'm ready to roll with the 311041, 311679, and the 311291. I have not heard of H4895 being too slow for cast bullets. I've seen lots of good reports on it being great with the 311041. I guess if it doesn't work out, and H335 is iffy, I could go up to Rx7.


You guessed it Dimmer. The reason I asked is that sometimes a scope mount or the scope itself can be the culprit in excessively large groups.

I was not able to get the picture last night. Way too much stuff going on and never made it to the shop. I should mention that the scope I'm using I have high confidence in. I have used it for a bunch of load testing with other rifles. I get very good groups with it when I find the right load for the specific rifle. I'm betting I'm dealing with a weak mount or something causing pressure on the barrel.

Regardless, I'll get a pic going this evening.

[Dimner]

Got to the range today. Tried some winchester 170 power points. Still no love from the rifle. Tried different holds as per mentioned above. Still no improvement. But the good news is that i made sure I cane ready with the tools to remove my scope and reinstall the rear sight. After a couple of rounds of adjustment, here is where I netted out.


32 grains of H335 with a sierra 150grain soft point spitzer (thus the tattered holes)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/bdd220f500eef9f981f314f0ce198442.jpg



That's 25 yards with iron sights. 4 bullets same ragged hole. And a 5th a little outside. My 50 yard groups on 12x zoom never came close to that. It was rare if my 50 yard holes even touched.

Here is the mount I was using, but I have just now ordered the weaver side mount.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160816/58db21cd47b13390137bb7da15e86651.jpg

So I'm feeling good about the rifle now and hope I'm over the hump.

[Scharfschuetze]

I hope that you've distilled the problem down to the mount. That will be good news indeed if confirmed at the next range session.

I see that the mount you are using uses the two screw holes for an aperture sight at the left rear of the receiver. I don't know how you feel about aperture sights, but I get quite good accuracy using them on all my lever action and one slide action deer rifles. They are not all that expensive when considering the advantages that they give you, both in accuracy and portability.

It's just a thought, but one that might help you out.

Here are a Model 64 and a Model 94 with aperture sights.

[starmac]

Me thinks that long octagon barrel was just objecting to being dressed up with a scope on it.

[Dimner]

I hope that you've distilled the problem down to the mount. That will be good news indeed if confirmed at the next range session.

I see that the mount you are using uses the two screw holes for an aperture sight at the left rear of the receiver. I don't know how you feel about aperture sights, but I get quite good accuracy using them on all my lever action and one slide action deer rifles. They are not all that expensive when considering the advantages that they give you, both in accuracy and portability.

It's just a thought, but one that might help you out.

Here are a Model 64 and a Model 94 with aperture sights.

After load development, my plan is to goto either the receiver sight by lyman or Williams or a marble's tang sight as the permanent setup for this rifle. I keep wavering between receiver sight and tang sight. There are pro's and cons to both that I never can make my mind up about. But either way, and aperture sight will be used with this rifle once I have my loads developed.


Me thinks that long octagon barrel was just objecting to being dressed up with a scope on it.

I agree. I hate to put a scope on it, but I find load development far easier with a 12x scope. Probably more of a comfort zone thing than anything else. If I don't use a scope, I start 2nd guessing my results. But it may come down to using only an aperture sight for load development if the new weaver side mount has the same issues.

[Dimner]

So I got my new weaver side mount all setup, loctited and ready to go.

Dang factory bullets still giving me no love at all! Still 2" groups at 50yards with scope on 12x.

So I took my rifle home, removed all the copper fouling, went back to the range to try some lead bullets.

Lyman 311041 sized .311 with Lars 2500+ lube Lyman #2 alloy. 25 grains of H335.

I got a 1" group. In my mind, the angels sang. The first 2 shots were in the same hole. The last 2 shots were in a different hole, but they were in their own same hole. I did not have my chronograph setup, but I'm guessing about 1950fps. This TR 94 is a 26" barrel. Another 30-30 I have with a 20" barrel clocks this load at 1800fps.

So I try my next load. 26.5 grains of H335. Manual says it should increase 100fps with the 1.5gr increase. Shoot the next 5 shots.... 9" group!!!

No idea what is going on now. I'm just really perplexed by this. I'm going to look for leading tonight to see if that's the case, but I cannot think that 5 shots would cause that bad of leading. Then I'll load 10 more rounds at 25 grains and see if I can reproduce results. If not. I guess I'm going to aperture sights.

[Scharfschuetze]

Well, that's got to be frustrating, particularly after having high hope for the rifle.

Just to cover the bases again, is the crown square, the barrel straight, head space good, scope mount solid, etc?

Keep plugging away and try some moderate loads with Unique powder and see how that does.