Cap maker idea

[alexzxz]

So I was browsing through the forums on caps, and found this comment about how in the "old days" they'd swage a piece of aluminum foil with a roll cap on the nipple when they ran out. Well I've heard of the tap o cap and using plastic ring caps before, but never this. Looked like an interesting venture so I tried by drilling out a small hole in a piece of wood, rounding out the entrance, placing a small circle of 4-ply of heavy duty foil, and pressing it in with spare nipple from my Pietta.

Surprisingly it worked OK. The dimension weren't perfect, but if you crimp foil hard enough against another surface, it becomes rock solid. Also held up pretty well on the nipple, any amount of swinging didn't loosen it. Placed some caps in and they definitely fired up with a loud bang. There was some consistency issues due to the roll caps, but that could be fixed with some BP dusting. I might look into making some chlorate primers instead as I have the materials.

I made a quick model in Sketchup as a mental exercise. Turned out to grueling since that software sucks. [smilie=b:

I couldn't figure out the pattern tool, since it didn't even have one, so you can see five holes are missing on the bottom punch, but you get the idea. The top punch should probably be beveled and the bottom should be rounded into the hole but there was no tool for that either. I need to get a copy of NX.

https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8686/28811510006_ce940dac3a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KTYw9w)

It's kind of simple. There's 4 pieces:

punch top
punch bottom
top ramming pins
bottom knockout pins.

The top pins are 4.2mm diameter, and the bottom are 4.4 mm diameter.



You place a piece of folded 4 ply foil on the punch bottom
punch out 6 circles with punch top.
then use the top ramming pins to press the foil into shape
add your priming compound or roll caps
knock them out with the bottom pins.


No idea if this will work especially the punch part, since i don't have access to a CNC machine right now. You could probably make the thing out of two blocks of wood, and some thin dowels and punch the circles separately with one of those craft store punches. Don't feel incline to do so, since I've used up my tinkering curiosity in the process. When I get access to a machine shop, I'll try to make one out of aluminum.

Posting this to see if anyone's got the tools and curiosity to mess with it. This thing can probably be improved too, but I'm no engineer so I can't figure out the bugs till I make it.

[rancher1913]

the higher quality caps from europe seem to do better than the wallyworld ones. I got lucky and got a capmaker from mannyca before he quit doing them. there are several threads on here about what you are attempting to do.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I also got a capmaker from MannyCA, it uses popcan metal and the red paper roll caps for toy capguns, the "Legends" brand from wallyworld (they are made in Germany) are highly recommended over the junk from China.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Legends-2-400-Shots-Roll-Caps/17300820
I've found that adding a kernal or two of FFF under that cap (as MannyCA suggested), makes them more reliable

[Traffer]

I have used roll caps for the primer to prime 22lr for a while now. Here are a couple of tips. Wallmart sells "Legends" brand caps, made in Germany....the best from what I have encountered and heard. Tip #2 Put a roll of caps in a little saucer of water for about a minute or so. Pull it out and peel the thin red layer of paper off of the heavier layer of paper on the bottom. (if the bumps of primer mix come off on the top layer, you soaked it too long) After you get the top layer off take a snap off blade knife or something equivalent put the tip in the water so you have a drop of water on the knife tip. Hold the strip of caps in your left hand and with your right hand take the knife and gently scrape off the bumps of primer. They come off really easy. I just scrape 6 to 8 at a time right on to the knife, kind of piling them up in a train or stack. Then I carefully push the stack of primers off onto something where they wont stick (they are still very moist) and let each pile dry. Then they are measured out ready to go. No paper to screw you up, just pure armstrong mix ... mmmmmmmm armstrong mix. A stack of 6 caps will set off just about anything. I use 8.

[Texantothecore]

Bttt for read

[alexzxz]

yeah, I've been using the Legends one as well. I think I used the Superbang ones as a kid and those are midgets in comparison. I'm going to have to try that trick of soaking off the paper, hate it when the nipple jams.

In the long term, I'm looking to making a system where I can put in aluminum material and crank out out dozens of cups at once. Then maybe a thin tube to put a dab of H48 primer paste in each cup, dry them, and ready to fire.

[alexzxz]

You were absolutely right there Traffer. I love learning from someone's experience.

One minute soaking and the waxy red layer literally rubbed off between my fingers. That was almost sinfully easy. Now i dont have to waste time punching out each cap and do the whole roll at once!

[n.h.schmidt]

I have been making percussion caps for years now. I thought two cap dots and BP to be as good as it got. This idea of getting the dots off the paper is outstanding. I'm going to give it a try. I tried six dots in a cup and fired it on my cap tester. Pretty good blast and flame. I think six dots and one dot with sanded paper punched out to go on top to hold them all in .Little paper and a good blast ,this should work. To anybody doing this.This should be safe but very corrosive. Your gun cleaning should be up to the job. I clean with dish soap and water and finish with Ballistal. No rust if done right.
alexzxz
I can see you are thinking about your cap maker die set. I do think you would be better off with a tap o cap or clone die set. There are plans out there to make them. They can be a lot cruder than many think and still work. After all it only has to make a cup that is used once.It can look like **** and work perfectly well. I can send you some of my cap cups to play with,if you want.
n.h.schmidt

[alexzxz]

Thanks for the offer. I have a ready supply of #10 caps so I don't think I'll need them for now. Also don't have access to machining tools since I'm out of state on work for a while. Worse comes to worse, I have a huge supply of the walmart German ring caps which i got off clearance. Primed with some powdered FFF and it should work fine as long as I clear the nipples every few cylinders or so.

Testing the roll caps and its looking great. You can soak the whole roll! Rub the end between your fingers and you'll grin like a Cheshire cat while effortlessly peeling off that plastic layer. I'm found through testing that it's better to leave them to dry overnight. It's a lot cleaner as they come off as a solid circle of primer.

For 2 dollars you get 2400 roll caps. Soak all 24 rolls, peel, dry overnight and you've got a ton of priming compound. Of course, it'd be crazy to have that much priming compound in one place, so its probably best to do 1-2 rolls at once.

[n.h.schmidt]

I can report success in charging my pop can cups with the scraped off dots. I used five loose with one dot punched out of the paper on top to hold them all in. A light coat of hair spray to seal things. I made only 12 of them. All fired my CVA rifle using 777 for powder. I am now experimenting with just mashing the wet caps into the cups with a wooden matchstick. Let dry and three very light coats of hairspray. I wasn't sure if the hairspray would kill the mix when put on directly. The very light coats did not hurt anything and will keep the mix in the cups. The wet mashing is also working with some of the China made caps. You don't get intact dots with this but you scrape off the dots and it becomes a paste that you can push into the cups. I have fired these on my tester with good power.
For the ring caps,I wold remove the paper disk and insert three dots. Replace the paper and give them a try. Or mash the wet dots into the cup and let dry and forget the paper disk.
The failure of the toy paper caps has always been the paper itself. All that fiber just can't get through the nipple very well

n.h.schmidt

[Traffer]

As I have said, I have been using this for primer for reloading 22lr. You are absolutely correct about them being corrosive. Clean that gun right away. Another tip. If you want a really hot firey spark, dust the clump of primer with aluminum dust like sprinkling sugar on a cookie.(or you can mix it into the primer mix while it is wet) I get aluminum dust by filing a piece aluminum with a fine file and collecting the dust. I was using it without straining it and it worked well. Now I have a #70 mesh straining screen and just use the very fine stuff. Really...you will be amazed at how much more you get out of those little caps.

[trapper9260]

I also got a capmaker from MannyCA, it uses popcan metal and the red paper roll caps for toy capguns, the "Legends" brand from wallyworld (they are made in Germany) are highly recommended over the junk from China.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Legends-2-400-Shots-Roll-Caps/17300820
I've found that adding a kernal or two of FFF under that cap (as MannyCA suggested), makes them more reliableThis is what I use to reload primers for hand gun and shotgun . also working on for rifle. You need to have the powder at the flash hole I will work on use a 1/4 of a sheet of tolite paper to hold the powder at the flash hole.I have read somewhere that is what someone had done.I forgot where I seen it.

[n.h.schmidt]

Traffer
I have heard the silvery powder in a etech-a sketch is powdered aluminum. If you had one of them you have a lifetime of powder.
Trapper
be carefull with the primer rebuilds .I don't think hammering out the dent more than once is a good idea. Keep them to low pressure loads if possible.
n.h.schmidt

[dondiego]

Powdered aluminum can be bought at pyrotechnics chemical supply outlets and it used to be found at some older paint and hardware stores

[Traffer]

Traffer
I have heard the silvery powder in a etech-a sketch is powdered aluminum. If you had one of them you have a lifetime of powder.
Trapper
be carefull with the primer rebuilds .I don't think hammering out the dent more than once is a good idea. Keep them to low pressure loads if possible.
n.h.schmidt
Quite true about hammering out dent on 22lr. In fact they are not reloadable more than once. The brass on 22lr is crazy thin and resizing them makes them brittle. Even with moderate loads I have a lot of cracked cases. Now I have to get some kind of oven to anneal the brass. As far as aluminum powder is very very easy to just file donw something aluminum and use the filings. Don't use a grinder though because you will get some of the grit from the grinder in with the aluminum. You don't want particles of a grinding wheel getting in your barrel.

[n.h.schmidt]

Where did you get the idea of soaking the thin paper off of the role caps and lifting the dots? It is changing how I do percussion caps. I can now make full powered caps. Even using eight per cup the price is still under$.01 per.

n.h.schmidt

[Traffer]

I invented it

[Traffer]

You are the first to benefit from my invention. Feel proud?

[Traffer]

I had to invent every part of the 22 reloading process. I had never reloaded before and had no clue how it was done. After inventing all the tools and processes I have found that much of what I have come up with is part of the regular reloading process.

[n.h.schmidt]

Well Thank You for the ideas. I can now see a better way to reload berdan primers out of this. I have done this before but with only some success. Now the primer cup could be loaded up with 10 or 15 dots while still wet and seated in the case and set aside to dry. Safe from firing while seating. I hope to be out again soon for more testing of the percussion caps. I have settled on eight dots for them. Six worked but eight will be sure. I am also going to try the plastic ring caps in my CVA rifle. The paper removed and three dots seated on top and hair spray. A whole lot of equipment is now not needed to load the percussion caps. I think this is now a little faster too. Would you mind if I spread this information to other places? Many will scoff but a few will come to see this is what was needed. Above all if worked with at least damp dots this is very safe.
n.h.schmidt

[Traffer]

At first I wanted to keep my methods secret. I was ridiculed. If I post stuff here it is for the public and you may share it with anyone and everyone.

[trapper9260]

Traffer
I have heard the silvery powder in a etech-a sketch is powdered aluminum. If you had one of them you have a lifetime of powder.
Trapper
be carefull with the primer rebuilds .I don't think hammering out the dent more than once is a good idea. Keep them to low pressure loads if possible.
n.h.schmidt Thank you for letting me know about this.. Have anyone try to add magnesium powder to the roll caps to have the flash more to help to fire a side hammer muzzle loader .I got it from a pyrotechnics supplier at a gun show .

[Traffer]

I have not tried magnesium powder yet. But coincidentally I just filed up a bunch from one of those strike a fire deals. Magnesium is hotter and more energy than aluminum so be careful with it. I have several "recipes" for primer. I notice some call for aluminum powder. I don't recall any specifying magnesium. But I haven't read them thoroughly yet.

[country gent]

Fine shaving of magnesium are extremly flamable, burn hotter than a welders tourh or arc and are almost imposible to put out. They could be hard on nipples and or barrels. At work when machining magnesium we never let alot of chips build up on or in the machine because of this. If youve never seen magnesium burn its a bright white light ball of flame thats as bright as a welder arc. I dont think it would cause a pressure issue but could be a wear issue

[Traffer]

Thanks for that warning.I have indeed seen magnesium burn. Used to work in a racing shop. We would collect magnesium and once in a while grab a handful and throw it into the huge wood burner we had. Quite a display. That's what the pyrotechnicians use to make the bright white fireworks. Aluminum burns white too but not as bright.


Fine shaving of magnesium are extremly flamable, burn hotter than a welders tourh or arc and are almost imposible to put out. They could be hard on nipples and or barrels. At work when machining magnesium we never let alot of chips build up on or in the machine because of this. If youve never seen magnesium burn its a bright white light ball of flame thats as bright as a welder arc. I dont think it would cause a pressure issue but could be a wear issue

[Dryball]

Traffer, there are several easy ways to anneal your brass. Some line their smelting pots with aluminum foil, pour in the cases and cover with a ball of foil. Some use their propane grills. I found (for me) the easiest is to put a bunch of cases on an old baking tray and put your oven on self clean and let them run through the cycle. After you anneal the cases they will usually have some scale and it's an easy operation to run them through a rotary tumbler with stainless pin media. I know it's a lot to wade through but BT Sniper et. al have written about this on the swaging forum. Good luck

[Traffer]

Thanks for the ideas. I will do that. The oven needs cleaning anyway. lol

Traffer, there are several easy ways to anneal your brass. Some line their smelting pots with aluminum foil, pour in the cases and cover with a ball of foil. Some use their propane grills. I found (for me) the easiest is to put a bunch of cases on an old baking tray and put your oven on self clean and let them run through the cycle. After you anneal the cases they will usually have some scale and it's an easy operation to run them through a rotary tumbler with stainless pin media. I know it's a lot to wade through but BT Sniper et. al have written about this on the swaging forum. Good luck