!!NEW Wildcat!!: 9mm Rimmed made from 357 magnum for Pietta Rough Rider revolver

[AJG]

!!NEW Wildcat!!: 9mm Rimmed made from 357 magnum for Pietta Rough Rider revolver
Grumpa,

Similar as you I did for my Heritage (Pietta) Rough Rider 357 mag Revolver.

I could not get enough Speed from 357 mag cases with 4 grains of type Titegroup powder and 9mm FMJ bullet. Even if I crimped it fairly well it just does not get the proper kick so velocity and Penetration is way to low. First I blamed bad Barrel seal (Obturation) of the smaller 9mm bullet in an 38 spl/357 mag Barrel but the Ruger redhawk I have understood is convertible as well (Comes with an 9mm cylinder and a 357 mag cilinder) and so Shooting 9mm in 357 Magnum Revolvers should work.

So I trimmed down an 357 mag case to 19mm length and loaded it the same as I do my 9mm Luger. Works very nice in that Revolver and has a lesser recoil than factory 357 mag rounds.

It seems to have too much empty space in the 357 mag 38 spl cases in order to get to 9mm Performance. So I guess the 9mm is one of the most efficient calibers since it has almost no empty space in the case and therefore is a way more efficient round as the 357 mag/38spl.

The most efficient round is therefore the case which gets allmost full of powder and the bullet sits right obove the powder (allmost no empty airspace). Efficiency in a case/caliber means with the Minimum amount of powder you get the Maximum of power Levels (Penetration).

The 9mmx19 rimmed 357 mag (trimmed down wildcat) has more Penetration than a regular 9mm with the same amount of powder (although the Barrel of the 357 mag Revolver is 5.5" and the S&W 9mm SD9VE Barrel is 4"). This wildcat caliber has a kick between 38spl (although I never shot one from this gun) and lower kick than a full power 357 mag.

[Multigunner]

The .357 has such a long case because it shares all other dimensions with the .38 Special so they wanted to be certain that the Magnum rounds weren't accidentally loaded into a .38 Special chamber.

The .357 cartridge evolved from the .38/44 Outdoorsman cartridge. These were extra powerful .38 Special cartridges intended only to be used in well made heavy frame .38 revolvers. Something like today's +P cartridges.

A rimmed 9mm revolver cartridge was available some years ago, I think Federal marketed them. Unfortunately these cartridges would fit in the chamber of old top break .38 S&W or Webley /Enfield .38/200 revolvers that weren't intended for this sort of pressure level.
It was said that due to the much larger bore diameter of these older revolvers that the rimmed 9mm didn't build up to full pressure, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Personally for revolver use I'd prefer half moon or full moon clips with the standard 9X19 rimless. That would make reloading much faster.
The Israelis made some S&W Model 10 clones in 9mm using half moon clips. They apparently used a SMG specific 9mm cartridge that used slow burning powder and didn't generate full pressure in the revolvers short barrels. The powder wasn't fully burned in the cylinder before reaching the gap.

[Earlwb]

Well, I think it is pretty neat. But you may have just reinvented the old 9x19R Federal cartridge that didn't turn out to be a success. I think that Federal was trying for something like the .45 Auto Rim to be used in revolvers chambered for the 9c19mm Federal Rimmed cartridge. This happened back circa the late 1980s and early 1990s. There were a few revolvers chambered for it too.

http://john1911.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/9mm-Federal-DSCN9014.jpg

[Bigslug]

What you've done is invented the .38 Short Colt: https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/38-Short-Colt-Brass/ , albeit at a considerably higher operating pressure.

We had a discussion some months back on filling the niche that used to be occupied by the little S&W top breaks (and clones) by making more modern revolvers with shorter cylinders designed to take this hot-loaded .38SC. Rounds would be loaded in an effort to modernize the concept of the British 200 grain .38 S&W load with wide meplat bullets in the more common .357"-.358" diameter projectiles.

And when somebody decides to make an upscaled Winchester 1890 pump action rifle to chamber it, I have dibs on the first one. . .

[AJG]

Yes I realised already bevor posting that there was/is an so called 9mm Federal rimmed cartridge.

However it is a good solution since here in Southamerica there are no bullets for 38 spl/357 mag availlable at the Moment so I had to figure something out with the bullets and cases I had (I had 9mm FMJ 115 grain bullets and 357 mag cases).

I shot today almost 2 cylinders full of them and they perform well. Only last reloaded round I realised it does not get smooth into the cylinder (just one of 6). Since I do not have a case trimmer yet nor an deburring and chamfering tool I blame it on the lack of propper case preparation.

I have a question: This wildcat will it have about the same pressure Levels as 9mm (since it is a 357 Magnum rated Revolver)?
Long term use will it have detrimental (damaging) effects on the gun?

[Bigslug]

A 9mm bullet, charge, & powder chamber in a .357 revolver is going to perform a bit less than the same load in an auto. You've got the long chamber, cylinder gap, and (possibly) slight blow-by of gas past the bullet in a too-big bore. I'm thinking if you want the same performance as your 9mm auto, you'll have to load a bit hotter to compensate for this bleed-off of pressure. You could experiment with cases cut to 9mm, .38S.C., .38 Super, and unaltered .38 Special lengths.

You aren't likely to hurt a .357 shooting loads well below .357 spec. The main safety issue would be scrubbing the ring of fouling from the short rounds out of the cylinder before shooting anything longer.

[AJG]

My question is still: Why gives the 357 mag case that much lower pressure and Penetration loaded with the same amount of powder as the regular 9mm Luger?

If the 357 mag does not work well with 4 grains of type Titegroup powder (9mm works nice with that load) then I suggest an 38spl will work eighter since it is an almost as Long case.

[Scharfschuetze]

My question is still: Why gives the 357 mag case that much lower pressure and Penetration loaded with the same amount of powder as the regular 9mm Luger?

Hola AJG,

That is because of the larger volume that the powder has to expand before it can move the bullet in the larger case. The 357 Magnum is at its best with a case full of slow burning powder like 2400, Winchester 296 or Hodgdon's Lil'Gun. With these loads, it will outperform the 9X19 Luger/Parabellum all the time.


If the 357 mag does not work well with 4 grains of type Titegroup powder (9mm works nice with that load) then I suggest an 38spl will work eighter since it is an almost as Long case.

Many reloaders when duplicating 38 Special target loads with 357 cases increase the powder charge .2 or .3 grains to maintain the 38 Special velocity.

It's all about the case volume. Small cases like the 9mm with 4 grains of powder will always create more pressure than a larger case like the 38 Special and the even larger .357 Magnum with the same powder, charge, same bullet, primer, et cetera.

By the way, that was a nice solution to your reloading problem and your lack of .358" diameter bullets.

¡Te felicito!

[AJG]

Thank you Scharfschuetze.

Sie scheinen ein intelligenter Kopf zu sein. Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Habla aleman?

You seem to be a smart guy. This is the most clear answer I got.

So IT IS ALL ABOUT CASE VOLUME!

Therefore I Chose the wrong caliber as it seems as we have here only the Option to scavenge powder from shotshells for reloading (and that is fast burning). I am from Soutamerica and as it turned out bullet molds are prohibited as well to bring from the USA.

So trimming down 38spl and 357 mag cases to 9mm Federal rimmed (9x19R) is to only viable Option.
I as well just could have stayed with reloading 9mm Luger or have bought another 9mm pistol. But this Revolver shoots so nice the homemade 9mm Federal Rimmed.

[Scharfschuetze]

Sie scheinen ein intelligenter Kopf zu sein. Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Habla aleman?

Es macht mir nicht AJG! Es freut mich sehr behilflich zu sein.

No problem AJG! It is pleasing to be helpful.

Sí, hablo alemán también. Mi alemán es mejor que mi español.

Yes, I speak German also. My German is better than my Spanish.

So you speak Spanish, German and English. I think that you are quite a linguist as well as a clever reloader.

[AJG]

Dear Scharfschuetze,

Ja auch meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. Dann kam Spanisch und erst zuletzt als ich einige Jahre in Kanada verweilte (I am canadian citizen too) lernte ich so richtig die Englische Sprache (Englisch als Weltsprache so wie das Griechische zur Zeit Jesu Christi).

In order to honour our english dear friends lets continue our conversation in english (I am happy that chineese is not yet the world language and I hope it will never be as then you are not allowed to reload). If you don't mind Sir.

I have a specific question. Blackpowder is not working for me but my homemade 9mm Federal Rimmed (shortened down 357 mag cases to 19mm, charged powder as 9mm and with an 9mm FMJ 115 grain bullet) yes.

Which die set will load 9mm Federal Rimmed? Is it the Lee Precision 38 Short and Long Colt 3-Die Carbide like in here: https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Short-3-Die-Carbide/dp/B00162UMR2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470603165&sr=8-1&keywords=38+short+colt (https://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision-Short-3-Die-Carbide/dp/B00162UMR2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1470603165&sr=8-1&keywords=38+short+colt).
Will this load "as is" the 9mm Federal Rimmed?

[fjruple]

Nice thread I did this conversion several decades back and found the rimmed 9mm to be an excellent cartridge in a revolver. I use a 9mm luger carbide sizing die with a .38 Special/.357 Magnum shell holder. The 9mm Federal was a case of bad timing. The two issues that killed the cartridge was the bankruptcy of Charter Arms (first time) built guns and the ability of the cartridge to be chambered in a break top .38S&W and fired. Needless to say with disastrous results. If the rim was made thick like the .45 Auto-Rim I doubt there would have been a problem. S&W at one point built the Model 547 for a French Police contract and their hammerless Centennial in 9mm. The French Police did not buy the Model 547 and the 940 suffered from the lack of proper chambering which required the full moon clip to headspace the round. I beleive Taurus has a S&W Chief type pistol in 9mm available now. I carried a 940 in my field jacket as a back gun in the US Army.

--fjruple

[AJG]

Will the Lee 38 Short and Long Colt 3 die set work for reloading 9mm Federal Rimmed?

Till now I use FIRST DIE RCBS 38spl/357 mag decap and sizing die; SECOND DIE Hornady 9mm Luger/9x21 mouth bell die; THIRD DIE Hornady taper crimp 9mm seating and crimping die. I allways use taper crimp die sets and never roll crimp.
I just shot an 9mm Federal Rimmed round and split an 1.25" hardwood in two peaces flying to each side both pieces about 3 meters. Seems to have more energy than a regular 9mm Luger out of an semiauto.

However I want to have an complete die set just for this homemade 9mm Federal Rimmed (trimmed down 357 mag case).

Will the 38 short and Long Colt 3 die set work for this?

[hollywood63]

I do the same except I use 38 S&W cases a lot less trimming

[DLCTEX]

I bought 9mm rimmed cases from a member here and use them in my Ruger 357/9mm convertible. They work great.

[AJG]

dlctex,

What about recoil of your 9mm Federal Rimmed? Accuracy? Any experience is welcome!

I found my homemade 9mm Federal Rimmed are more powerfull than my 9mm Luger with the same bullet and powder Charge. Luger gets almost through an 1.25" redhardwood sheet and the 9mm Federal Rimmed just splits it in 2 pieces flying both pieces a few meters to each side. In my experience 9mm Federal Rimmed must have more hydrostatic shock.

[Earlwb]

If importing a bullet mold is prohibited, will they let you make your own bullet mold? Once you figure out the technique it isn't difficult to make your own molds.

[victorfox]

Nice job AJG! Seems we down south have to do a bunch of cutting and filing to make things happens.

This weekend I cut some .410 brass to fireform into .45 Colt like cases for my judge so I can increase the ball diameter (since it's a smoothbore, won't shoot a bullet worth a bean and anyway I can't get bullets).

With some effort you can also duplicate the 380 or something a bit stronger as it uses very little powder and economy is always interesting.

[victorfox]

If importing a bullet mold is prohibited, will they let you make your own bullet mold? Once you figure out the technique it isn't difficult to make your own molds.

Probably yes, but it's probably difficult to find a good machinist to the job, unless he himself have the knowledge and tools to do it.

[AJG]

dear earlwb and victorfox

Yes that is my backup plan if there is really no way to bring molds in. They can be brought but I have to Register as an reloader or ammunition factory and as well be associated with an Shooting range. Neigther of both I am willing to do since once the Police knows your Name, every there happens something in your area Police is suspecting you first and all time they Show up counting the ammo you made and asking for bribes "unless they find something".
Reloding is prohibited here but not the adquisition of reloading Equipment.
Once they prohibit primers I am dones since they are not to make as easily (that is why I ordered 10000 of small pistol primers and local gun shop brings me another 6000).

Right now there may be a Chance to "slip by customs" the molds if you are lucky but it is not very likely they will arrive. The Thing is Internet businiss is closely scrutinised right know since local representatives and Shops rise Prices about 3 times the costs and People try to skip such exploitation buying directly from the USA.
If no mold arrives I will Join together with an local shop owner and we will work something out to make own molds.

I thought he will take two halves of an iron block and I give him an 9mm bullet as example and with an .356" (9mm Luger) drill he drills the hole for the Wadcutter. Those will be wadcutters as well for the .358" (38 spl). A spur plate is added and handles and there we go with our Wadcutters. If an additional smaller drill is used after the bigger hole is drilled it may be work out to an Semiwadcutter. In eighter case there will not be lube grooves whatsoever.

If somebody knows an drill bit kit for making molds that I can Import most likely.

[GRUMPA]

When it comes to moulds, you need to do your homework. There's things like venting that play an important role in the finish product. Improper venting and you can spend a month of Sundays wondering why the bullets come out looking like some first grader with a hammer went nuts on a piece of lead.

In your case I would search, search some more, ask questions, and them attempt to either make your own mould or have someone else do it.

Diameter has an effect on accuracy, so you have to know a few things first. After exhausting all research then attempt to produce your own projectiles.

Your not really coming up with something new in the roll your own category. Seems your doing things out of necessity more than desire.

[AJG]

I am located in Southamerica.

No molds can be imported. No gun powder whatsoever.

So I scavenge shotshells for powder and lead for reloading. Although without molds the lead turns out to be useless as well.
Obviously I would buy molds rather than build one but every order of molds till now is rejected from local customs as illegal.

[GRUMPA]

That's my point, out of desperation your trying to come up with a way to get what you want. Scavenging for materials is 1 thing, knowing what to do after that is a different thing. In this site your going to need to do research, and lots of it. You can use the lead in a shot shell, but adding tin to the lead and water dropping directly from the mould will produce harder bullets. Now that you have bullets you need to come up with a way to lube them, whether it be by machine or some home-brew method.

Basically as I see it your trying to skirt around the countries laws/regulations to get what you desire.

Like I said....do a lot of research.

And obviously....I know you would rather buy moulds than try and have them made.

[Earlwb]

It isn't terribly difficult to make your own bullet mould. You use a lathe to make the bullet shape and size you want. Then use a dremel tool and grinder maybe to help cut in the slots for metal chips to go into.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzWct1G_n7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWCJn6zkBWs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCh2TkMDcEo

Of course this guy did it differently. He used a boring bar to adjust the bullet diameter or hole size and thus cut the lubricating grooves in during the process. If you have a boring bar that can be a good way to go too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrzexK55ZBA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb3DkpG4fds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CwRw4oBY9Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5BM6dNXFyY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oqMziCHdxQ

[NavyVet1959]

Could you not just seat the bullet deeper in the .357 case in order to get the same result? I've seen wad cutters seated flush with the mouth of the case. You would probably need to create a different seating stem to push the bullet further down than the mouth though.

[victorfox]

you don't use exactly a drill bit but a cherry, that is a "point", "bit", cut to the exactly shape of the bullet.

This video is very instructive on the matter.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gCh2TkMDcEo

[reddog81]

If I understand your original post it sounds like you are using a 9mm bullet in a .357 case with 4 grains of Tite-Group. Where did you get this load from? According to Hodgdon's website the starting load for a 38 special round with a 125 grain jacketed bullet is 4.3 grains. If your bullet weight is something other than 125 the data would be different. If this is the case you don't need to shorten the case but just use an appropriate charge of powder.

[victorfox]

Reddog, he probably figured what is the closest powder to whst he has locally. I also live in South America and have similar problems and figured the powders I have are close to W231 and the other is a tad faster than Unique, by studying data and comparing to the local powders data.