OMG - Aluminum Foil patching !

[DoctorBill]

I just ran across this while looking for Bullet Swaging photos with Google Images !

Some fellow is patching with Aluminum Foil !

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/28/3epaby8e.jpg
from http://www.ammosmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,10091.0.html

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/28/e6apyvus.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/03/a6ezedaj.jpg

He doesn't say very much about this, but I guess it works fine.

I don't suppose it would hurt the rifling.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

I just ran across this while looking for Bullet Swaging photos with Google Images !

Some fellow is patching with Aluminum Foil !

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/02/28/3epaby8e.jpg


DoctorBill
I see that he is exceedingly consistent with the positioning of the patch on his bullet ...

[Gunlaker]

People do all sorts of strange things. I'll bet there is someone patching with Emory paper too :-)

[sharpsguy]

He might as well use emery paper. They use aluminum oxide to make industrial grade sanding belts. I buy and use a lot of them. No way I would run one of those down my barrel.

[rancher1913]

that looks a lot like aluminum duct tape, its a lot finer than foil and has a sticky side that holds real well. I think it would be easier to just get the right size boolit.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

All aluminium has a fine coating of oxide, which like anodising stops the extreme reactivity with the air which its atomic structure would suggest. But it is very fine and smooth indeed, so as to be entirely transparent. I don't believe it would hurt the barrel anywhere near as much as firing high-pressure incandescent gases through it, which we can do thousands of times before the damage is significant.

The Portuguese chose and immediately dropped patching with copper foil, when they found out that it caused inaccuracy due to unreliable detachment. Regular attachment or detachment would be about equally good, but centrifugal force prevents the former, and probably soldering due to frictional heat the latter. But aluminium is extremely hard to solder, even if you want to.

I think this material would work. It is quite good as a bearing material for a hard steel shaft. My only doubt concerns its thinness, which I think is likely to wear through and produce leading. The same material in soda-can thickness, even if annealed, would be likely to remain in the bore and act as an obstruction, unless we accepted the complication of turning the ends over to form a blind tube. But I think thicker foil, used just like a paper patch, would have real potential.

[Lead pot]

:) This pops up every now and then. Forgotten for a while then re invented again by someone else. Like masking tape, stick on shipping labels, Teflon tape, even seram wrap. Sort of comical and they say I been doing it for years LOL.

[Lead pot]

Several years ago on the old shooters, there was a discussion on making aluminum jackets out of pop cans for swaged bullets. The results where heavy galling and fouling worse then lead alloys.

[merlin101]

People do all sorts of strange things. I'll bet there is someone patching with Emory paper too :-)
Guaranteed to get a good grip!

[country gent]

I also dont see any ends and the gap or overlay of the 2 wraps of aluminum foil patches ends. Is he using square ends or angled what is the gap between when wrapped. Several questions come to mind with this. Will the aluminum foil "sweel when the bullet expands to seal the bore or tear / crack? WIll it be cut to release the bullet at the muzzle? And last after years of working in forming punching and forming parts How abrasive is it going to be on sharp corners of the rifling and lands grooves?

[JSnover]

I notice that thread lasted a whole nine days, right up to the claim of 2" @ 300yds.
Far be it for me to call him liar… but I do wonder why he got so quiet all of a sudden.

[victorfox]

People do all sorts of strange things. I'll bet there is someone patching with Emory paper too :-)

no CSI will be able to track the body to his gun :lol:

[DoctorBill]

Be careful what you say !

Hillary might hear of that and use it as one more reason to make guns illegal -
you can't trace Paper Patched Bullets to any rifle !

Do you imagine that she reads this Forum..........?

DoctorBill

[Good Cheer]

Several years ago on the old shooters, there was a discussion on making aluminum jackets out of pop cans for swaged bullets. The results where heavy galling and fouling worse then lead alloys.

Ah ha, always wondered how come nobody used aluminum cans to manufacture base expanding projectiles for rifled muzzleloading cannons.

[joelpend]

Several years ago on the old shooters, there was a discussion on making aluminum jackets out of pop cans for swaged bullets. The results where heavy galling and fouling worse then lead alloys.
What I was thinking aluminum fouling. Wonder what kind of bore cleaner you would need to get that out of a barrel.

[montana_charlie]

What I was thinking aluminum fouling. Wonder what kind of bore cleaner you would need to get that out of a barrel.
Pepsi?

[RogerDat]

You know I wonder if one could take aluminum beverage can metal and wrap it as a protective seal on the base of the bullet to prevent gas cutting?

Oh wait gas checks, silly me. :bigsmyl2:

[Walkingwolf]

You know I wonder if one could take aluminum beverage can metal and wrap it as a protective seal on the base of the bullet to prevent gas cutting?

Oh wait gas checks, silly me. :bigsmyl2:

LOL, IIRC Winchester used aluminum for the jacket material on their silver tip ammo.

[Red River Rick]

LOL, IIRC Winchester used aluminum for the jacket material on their silver tip ammo.

Only the tip was aluminum, the rest of the jacket, any portion that came in contact with the bore, was copper.

RRR

[Grapeshot]

Only the tip was aluminum, the rest of the jacket, any portion that came in contact with the bore, was copper.

RRR

Actually, I pulled a .45 Silver Tip from a .45ACP case and found that the bullet is aluminum jacketed and had a canalure around the base filled with a green waxy lubricant.

[ascast]

thats funny== why call it "silvertip" when it the body that's silver? Odd, I had lots of that old stuff and mine always had a silvertip and copper colored body. Mine was in rifle calibers only.

[johnson1942]

i tried aluminum foil with a poly coating on one side in patching fast twist muzzleloader bullets and it worked well. i patched with the poly side out. very hard to patch a bullets with aluminum foil as compared to paper so why switch? poly coated foil does work though. now i chase single wrap with poly coated 18 pound freezer paper. poly side out.

[Walkingwolf]

thats funny== why call it "silvertip" when it the body that's silver? Odd, I had lots of that old stuff and mine always had a silvertip and copper colored body. Mine was in rifle calibers only.

I pulled silver tip Winchester bullets in several calibers, and they all were aluminum jackets.

[big bore 99]

Seems it would be very abrasive. Don't think I'd try it. I did try out some copper foil once but turned out to be a mess and worse accuracy.

[Walkingwolf]

Seems it would be very abrasive. Don't think I'd try it. I did try out some copper foil once but turned out to be a mess and worse accuracy.

Aluminum has a lower Bhn than copper. Alum 15 HB, copper 35 HB. It has a Bhn closer to hard cast, but higher melting point then lead. Should result in higher velocity than copper, may be the reason for the use in Winchester ammunition.

Alum melt point 1,221°F, lead 621.5°F, depending on the alloy about double. So one gets the benefits of lead lubricity, and higher melt point. I have loaded silver tips really hot in a S&W model 28, and never once had any leading. Not sure how thin alum used for patching would hold up though, seems like it would tear.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Seems it would be very abrasive. Don't think I'd try it. I did try out some copper foil once but turned out to be a mess and worse accuracy.

I've been told that it is quite a good bearing material for a hardened steel shaft. There might be problems like galvanic corrosion which seem like abrasion, but I doubt very much if there is abrasion in the strict sense of the word. I don't know enough to predict galvanic corrosion, and I'm not sure if anybody does. But I'm sure it takes time in contact.

The oxide coating on aluminium is almost inconceivably thin and fine. I think aluminium thicker than ordinary kitchen foil would be needed, though.

[JavelinaBlanco]

Are you speaking of "ghost" bullets now? :roll:



Be careful what you say !

Hillary might hear of that and use it as one more reason to make guns illegal -
you can't trace Paper Patched Bullets to any rifle !

Do you imagine that she reads this Forum..........?

DoctorBill

[GONRA]

GONRA sez to use a water solution of lye / NaOH / sodium hydroxide
to chemically react / dissolve any Al "bore leading".
Bet some of those lye / NaOH / sodium hydroxide based drain cleaners would doit fast!

Make sure to clean it all out with hot water -
(just like KCl / potassium chloride corrosive priming residue)
dry bore and oil promptly.

[mozeppa]

i used to have 45acp ammo that was factory made with aluminum bullets ....around 100 grains in weight.

but looked to be the size of 230 grain hollow points.

[Lead pot]

I think some of you are confusing aluminum jackets from gilding. that is a alloy of copper and zinc or silver gild.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/8mm_Mauser_stripper_clip_1941_Turkish_military_pro duction%202_zps0asp9w9v.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/8mm_Mauser_stripper_clip_1941_Turkish_military_pro duction%202_zps0asp9w9v.jpg.html)

[DoctorBill]

Density = Mass / Volume

I should think that a 100 gr Aluminum bullet would be too large a volume
for a .45 acp.

100 gr = 6.48 grams. Density of Lead 11.34 g/cc Aluminum 2.70 g/cc

100 gr of lead --> ~ 0.57 cc = 6.48 / 11.34

100 gr Aluminum --> 2.4 cc = 6.48 / 2.70

i.e. ---- 11.44 / 2.70 = 4.2

An Aluminum Bullet of the same grains mass has a 4.2 times larger volume.

The bearing surface of the Aluminum slug in the barrel would be quite a bit larger than a
lead bullet of the same mass.

Could one even chamber a .45 acp with a 100 gr Aluminum bullet ?

https://s19.postimg.org/pa9dr1r6r/Al_to_Pb_Bullet_Volume.jpg

If I am full of Baloney, someone let me know !

DoctorBill

[mozeppa]

Density = Mass / Volume

I should think that a 100 gr Aluminum bullet would be too large a volume
for a .45 acp.

100 gr = 6.48 grams. Density of Lead 11.34 g/cc Aluminum 2.70 g/cc

100 gr of lead --> ~ 0.57 cc = 6.48 / 11.34

100 gr Aluminum --> 2.4 cc = 6.48 / 2.70

i.e. ---- 11.44 / 2.70 = 4.2

An Aluminum Bullet of the same grains mass has a 4.2 times larger volume.

The bearing surface of the Aluminum slug in the barrel would be quite a bit larger than a
lead bullet of the same mass.

Could one even chamber a .45 acp with a 100 gr Aluminum bullet ?

https://s19.postimg.org/pa9dr1r6r/Al_to_Pb_Bullet_Volume.jpg

If I am full of Baloney, someone let me know !

DoctorBill

no...yer not full-o-baloney ... i did say "around"
so...i'm wrong on the weight.

what i'm not wrong on is the size....it was the size of a230 grain hollow point....same configuration....and
it was made of aluminum....and the weight is unknown to me at this time....all i know is that the bullet was extremely light in weight.

and now that i've had some time to think on it ....they may have been 117 grains....and i may still be wrong.

*************** update*****************

i found the ammo it was made "AGUILA" and called the "IQ" line of defensive ammo.

looking for pictures now.

[mozeppa]

180515

[DoctorBill]

What is an "Intelligent Bullet" anyway ?!

I believe that it is obvious that the "AGUILA" bullet as shown cannot
possibly be made of Aluminum. It would have to be machined since the
melting point of Aluminum is around 1200 °F. You don't simply 'cast'
Aluminum bullets so easily. Could be pressure swaged as Aluminum is soft.

Besides, an Aluminum bullet of those dimensions would have such a low
mass as to be worthless to fire at anything except a foot away.

That's why the Military uses spent Uranium in Anti-Tank Rounds....
High Density to penetrate.

What would be the point of Aluminum bullets ?!

If you have them, kinetically pull one and weigh it. You will see that it is
made of some dense metal or plated to look like Aluminum.

DoctorBill

Edited in a few minutes later - Just found this on Google.
http://www.thegunzone.com/aguila-iq.html
Read it toward the end....
"The primary difference is in the thickness of the jacket, which is made from steel (with a gilded metal coating). The core is a basic lead/antimony mix. "

So - wherever you go - there you are !

[mozeppa]

will pull one when wife lets me out that far.

total knee replacement 3 days ago.

[DoctorBill]

Ouch ! I know a guy who had that done.

Now that you know what the bullet is, from the Internet Search,
why waste it ?

DoctorBill

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Winchester has had 'Silvertip' Rifle ammunition since before WW2. The rifle ammunition was a copper jacketed bullet with an aluminum cap. May still be some around, now I think the Winchester Silvertip RIFLE ammunition has a copper jacket with a polymer tip. In the 80's (?) Winchester brought out a line of HANDGUN ammunition called Silvertip. This is an aluminum alloy jacket over a lead core. Made in most popular calibers - 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 44 Special, 357, others. May still be in production but wiped out by ' THE PANICS'. Had/has a decent reputation but before the 'FBI' testing.
Never liked the performance of the RIFLE ammunition on game, the HANDGUN ammunition was reliable and functioned well.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Winchester has had 'Silvertip' Rifle ammunition since before WW2. The rifle ammunition was a copper jacketed bullet with an aluminum cap. May still be some around, now I think the Winchester Silvertip RIFLE ammunition has a copper jacket with a polymer tip. In the 80's (?) Winchester brought out a line of HANDGUN ammunition called Silvertip. This is an aluminum alloy jacket over a lead core. Made in most popular calibers - 45 Colt, 45 ACP, 44 Special, 357, others. May still be in production but wiped out by ' THE PANICS'. Had/has a decent reputation but before the 'FBI' testing.
Never liked the performance of the RIFLE ammunition on game, the HANDGUN ammunition was reliable and functioned well.

Whether or not it was commercially viable, Winchester aren't the sort of people to go into that unless they had satisfied themselves on the supposed abrasiveness of the oxide layer.

[DoctorBill]

What would be the point of making an Aluminum Clad bullet ?

There would have to be an advantage to doing it, other than just 'looks'.

Would it penetrate better ? Copper jacketed bullets have lasted
essentially forever. The polymer tips are to cover the 'hollow point'
to allow for mushrooming.
Unless Aluminum makes for better mushrooming or survives the
high velocity trip to the target better, why go to the trouble of swaging
Aluminum into a bullet blanket or cover ?

It just seems illogical to mess about with Aluminum where a more
dense metal would actually increase the momentum of the projectile.

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

I had a lot of plumbing service calls at a local factory. They had a injection caster that cast's aluminum parts. The melted aluminum was like a soft butter and it was injected into a mould. They also used a zink casting machine.

[Traffer]

You won't believe this...I was just thinking about that yesterday. Was on the john and thought "I wonder if anyone has ever tried aluminum foil for paper patching." I was going to google it but by the time I finished my business I forgot. ...im old.

[Traffer]

Problem solved. No Stick aluminum foil. I am absolutely positive that it will not foul the barrel. Please try it and give us the results.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What would be the point of making an Aluminum Clad bullet ?

There would have to be an advantage to doing it, other than just 'looks'.

Would it penetrate better ? Copper jacketed bullets have lasted
essentially forever. The polymer tips are to cover the 'hollow point'
to allow for mushrooming.
Unless Aluminum makes for better mushrooming or survives the
high velocity trip to the target better, why go to the trouble of swaging
Aluminum into a bullet blanket or cover ?

It just seems illogical to mess about with Aluminum where a more
dense metal would actually increase the momentum of the projectile.

DoctorBill

There is no real advantage or disadvantage in a bullet aluminium jacketed in the same style as gilding metal or copper, except economy for the manufacturer. It wouldn't be a big economy when you consider how the cost of commercial jacketed bullets stacks up against the price of copper, but every little helps... them. The difference in bullet weight wouldn't be great until you get to things like solid base bullets. You can keep up the weight that much by increasing the bullet length I you have the rifling twist, and the standard twist of many calibres was chosen for longer, heavier bullets than we often use nowadays.

Professor Rubin's first jacketed bullets were of tombac, an alloy similar to brass. Copper is more malleable, cupro-nickel harder if you need a non-expanding military bullet, and a poorer conductor of heat, giving less likelihood of core melting. At that time aluminium was a rare and expensive metal, and only became cheaper around 1910 when electricity got cheaper, particularly with hydroelectric power. In the Highlands of Scotland there is still a considerably sized dam built in 1910 exclusively for an aluminium smelter.

For foil patching, there isn't much advantage, if any, over paper patching. It might be easier to get the diameter precisely right, and it should b less vulnerable to handling wear and damp. With thin foil you could probably do it with a groove diameter bullet, but I think something thicker, possibly annealed soda can metal, would be better. Copper foil patching has been tried, and at least some of the time found failing to detach itself, with disastrous effects on accuracy. I think this is due to soldering under the heat of friction, and aluminium doesn't solder easily.

[dave roelle]

Copper and brass foils are also available :)

[Elkins45]

Brass foil---hmmmm.

I haven't tried Al foil, but I'm going to guess that it is much easier to apply than paper. I have dabbled with paper a bit, and my loss rate for patches was usually around 50% even after quite a. It of practice. A metal foil with good "memory" might be something worth trying.

Paper sticks to itself when it dries. I understand how wrapping at the base will hold on the foil, but how does it adhere at the nose? Wonder if you could just wrap the entire length and twist both ends, like a candy wrapper?