Unsized cases - maybe not again for me

[Chill Wills]

I shot our local BPCR silhouette match here in Colorado with one of my favorite rifles, 40-60 Maynard (44-1/2 action)

In a fit of brilliance I did not size and expand the cases - I thought I would give the slip-fit a try. Really, I was going to range test the idea on one of the weekdays this week before the match but life got in the way and that did not get done. So I took it to the match and gave it a go. :shock::oops:

This was not an improvement. I started with 300meter Pigs and tho I hit 10, I used every part of the targets getting that done. I knew right then and there it would be a challenge as the range and targets got farther and harder. Pigs are the easy one in this game.

Long story short, the load was accurate enough but then I had the odd flyer. I hit only 7 Turkeys (385m) and 7 Rams (500m) in very good conditions. The misses were way out and wild - they had my spotter wondering until I told him about the change in load.

I completed the match shooting offhand on Chickens for 4 and totaled 28/40
I think in another rifle/bullet combination - maybe this works. But, in this rifle, No shortcuts again!

The proven way is:
Necksize with Lyman die ( 0.425")
Case walls average 0.009"
Expand to bullet size 0.409" and let springback give the case a wee bit of hold.
Seat 0.409" mini-groove bullets
Shoot accurate ammo.

[country gent]

Chill Wills, I load mine like this. I hand deprime and clean primer pockets and polish. Reprime the cases and drop powder charges. Add wads and compress to needed depth for bullet placement or overall length. Once bullets are seated a bushing die is used with the appropriate bushing to set neck tension. On 38-55 iI use the rcbs cowboy die sizer on a .400 spacer to set neck tension. The sizer die can be set high to do this as long as the bullet dosnt hit in it. On my BPCR loads cases are only sized enough to set neck tension to the bullet after its in place.

[Gunlaker]

That is interesting Michael. I've always gone the other way. Recently I tried my new BACO money bullet ( 530gr, 3 reduced bands ) in my Shiloh .45-70. The batch of cases I was using were a little short so I decided to size them. The rifle shot well with the sized cases, but after sizing and expanding, there was 0.003 runout on the cases. I think the runout came from expanding rather than sizing, so maybe a partial sizing and flaring might work.

I want to play a bit with sizing on the .40-65. I just got a few new expanders. But I'll have to be able to reduce the case runout after sizing to make me feel good about it. If I could take a few feet per second muzzle variation off Of the load I'd be pretty pleased.

Chris.

[rfd]

interesting. i load fire formed and head stamp location oriented 45-70 brass. so no dies required for sizing, expanding or seating - just a powder compression die (usually). zero neck tension with push-in bullets. typically - starline brass, baco 459525m3 money bullet, swiss 1-1/2f, a milk wad and a pair of newsprint wads, fed 210 primers. i size new brass, straight wall expand to .461", then fire form for proper loading. it's all good if it works well for ya.

[Chill Wills]

The batch of cases I was using were a little short so I decided to size them. The rifle shot well with the sized cases, but after sizing and expanding, there was 0.003 runout on the cases. I think the runout came from expanding rather than sizing, so maybe a partial sizing and flaring might work.

I want to play a bit with sizing on the .40-65. I just got a few new expanders. But I'll have to be able to reduce the case runout after sizing to make me feel good about it. If I could take a few feet per second muzzle variation off Of the load I'd be pretty pleased.

Chris.
I've done a little of this shooting bullets out of unsized cases over the years and never had what I would call great accuracy. I always attributed it to the loose bullet not getting a straight start. I can control runout to a degree but I have some too. By doing some things with the way we load I think much of the runout goes away when we seat the loaded cartridge in the chamber and close the breach.

I will say, in contrast to the above, I campaigned a very tight necked 38-55 in NRA silhouette in the spring of 2002 and with the correct lot of stretched brass I could just clean, prime, powder and put the bullet in. The bullet would not fall out even shaken once in. That was an accurate rifle and load too. I lost interest as the ram failure was too much. The little round lacked knock-down-power and would leave about one a match standing.

In 45-70, many years ago, I used to use an interchangeable carbide sizing ring set up to get the neck just right and not over size the brass. I stopped using it because of the 'clear just by looking at it' runout of the brass neck - funny thing is the ammo was wicked accurate. The loaded cases were painful to see but the point here is I think one of two things (or both) stepped in to help out. In combination, the low neck tension, plus retaining a little mouth flair on the loaded case and the bullet getting gently pushed into the rifling, mostly lined the bullet up.
That was one thing - the other might be that runout may not have had as much bad effect is I thought it should.

Some people post size. Since post sizing is a step just as is pre sizing, I don't see much advantage there. These days I can load a match's worth of ammo purity durned fast so I think I am sticking with what I know works for me. As always, there are a lot of correct ways to do this.

Chris - on the accurate ammo you load slip-fit, how much bullet wiggle is there?

[Gunlaker]

Michael in my .40-65 there is really no wiggle. When I pull the .409" bullets out of the case they often make a popping sound as the air gets sucked back into the case.

I was out shooting that rifle again, but with the Saeco #740 bullet. With my mold, those bullets are not perfectly round, but the bullets slip fit into the case such that it's hard to pull them back ou again. As un-round as those bullets are, they are unbelievably accurate at 200m. They will generally beat my slip fit, seated way out, money bullets. But not so much further away I think.

In my .45-70 Shiloh, the chamber is not as tight. I can wiggle a .459" bullet around a bit. I'm pretty confident I could chamber a .460" bullet in that one. I'll bet that this rifle would prefer a little neck neck tension. I never did work too hard on a load for that rifle. It always shot reasonably welll with nearly everything I threw at it. When I got the .40-65 I sort of put that one in the back of the safe. I'd like to spend some time developing a load with that new 459530M4 bullet. It seems like a .45 cal version of what people call the Kidwell money bullet.

I'll be honest, I haven't yet put nearly the effort into neck tension that I have into slip fit, for any rifle. And much of what I did do was before I got into the habit of annealing cases.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

In my opinion it is a lot harder to get a accurate load with a GG then a PP.
A GG neck tension because of the neck wall thickness variances is very important. A deep seated GG you need a very uniform case neck wall thickness. Just a couple thousands different in the case neck raises the friction it takes for the bullet to release. More friction raises the chamber pressure which increases the vertical. This is not as noticeable at 1 or 200 yards but it's there. This increases with distance big time with the vertical. If you want to check this out use a Norma case that has thicker neck walls then say Remington or Starline brass.
Also the thicker neck walls also changes the inside volume. The thicker case walls changes the compression level with the same weight of the load. This changes the burn rate. These two things, neck tension and compression variances will give you problems down range.
The PP bullet is a little more forgiving because it is only seated in the case mouth a 1/8 or 1/10" to hold it this eliminates the release friction, and if you have a tight chamber this also helps to keep the bullet from expanding in the chamber so there is less swaging down as it moves up in the throat. This is why breach seating has benefits.
My focus is on neck wall thickness and inside volume.

[Chill Wills]

In my opinion it is a lot harder to get a accurate load with a GG then a PP.


They both have their issues to get it right and shooting well. I have done a fair bit of PP loading and I would have a hard time saying one is any more difficult. Apples and oranges. Making ammo that goes bang is not that hard in either case. Accurate ammo; that is another thing.

Chris, do you anneal brass for your PP loads? I never anneal for my GG loads. I've tried it and it is a wasted step. The amount of neck tension has to come into play on work hardened necks. I think maybe if you use a lot of neck pull it may make a difference.

rfd, The ordeal of orienting cases has never payed a dividend for me or anyone I shoot with. If you had a rifle with a very crooked chamber it might help, or not. If you have a good chambering job in the rifle and assuming the cases have thick and thin walls from the draw process, by orienting the head stamp, you are just assuring the randomness of the thin sides and the associated misalignment. If I had problems traced to really bad case wall thickness issues I would neck turn the cases. I have done case neck turning to adjust the wall thickness for a specific rifle, actuality a pair of rifles with the same chamber. In the process, one can get an idea of just how even or not, the case wall is on that lot of brass.

I omit loading and shooting steps that don't pay off or are not a good use of my time. At the same time I am always on the look out for new ideas. My loading steps have changed a lot since I first got started. I expect they still will.

[rfd]

... rfd, The ordeal of orienting cases has never payed a dividend for me or anyone I shoot with. If you had a rifle with a very crooked chamber it might help, or not. If you have a good chambering job in the rifle and assuming the cases have thick and thin walls from the draw process, by orienting the head stamp, you are just assuring that the randomness of the thin sides and the associated misalignment is assured. If I had problems traced to really bad case wall thickness issues I would neck turn the cases. I have done case neck turning to adjust the wall thickness for a specific rifle, actuality a pair of rifles with the came chamber. In the process, one can get an idea of just how even or not, the case wall is on that lot of brass..

i honestly dunno. you may have a very valid point. i've never shot the brass (starline) any other way, and i never anneal. i have no clue as to inconsistencies in brass wall thickness over it's length and diameter. orienting fire form loaded brass was recommended to me long ago by a regarded bpcr and schuetzen match winner, and the theory behind it does seem logical. but perhaps it is, as you say, brass orienting in the chamber is a totally unnecessary action on my part. either way, it's not an ordeal for me and just part of my shot process, but i really do appreciate your comment and explanation ... more stuff to ponder.

[RPRNY]

I shoot Paper Patched slicks, so a bit of a different cup of tea, but I like a light taper crimp. Just enough to take the visible bell out of the case and provide some tension on the boolit.

[Lead pot]

Several of my rifles are chambered with the reamer I designed that have a very tight cylinder neck ranging from .300" to .400" (double tapered taper) The case when fired and cleaned will just except a PP bullet that is two thousands over bore diameter and it is a snug fit. I can load the bullet 1/8" in the case mouth and turn it upside down and shake it and it will not fall out. No sizing needed. Just keep the case mouth chamfered so it wont tear the patch.
My rifles with the "standard" chambers even a GG bullet seated in a unsized fired case will not hold the bullet when turned up-side down. A PP bullet wiggles in a unsized case.
What I do with those cases to get the right neck tension is, I run them through a taper crimp die deep enough to hold the bullet, about 3/16" before I charge the powder. Just the first step in case prep instead of full length sizing. I made different neck expanders that match the bullets I use with different diameters so I have the neck tensions that work best with the loads. Usually 1-1/2 to two thousands works best for them. When you use a collet die to crimp a case neck it is usually eccentric, not concentric, this will give you run out. Using a taper crimp die for sizing the case it is concentric with no runout unless the case wall has been pulled from many loads fired. They get thicker usually on one side more then all the way around.
The only time when I use a sizing die is when I get a new batch of brass. They don't fit my tight chambers so I need to full length size them.
Just my way, but it works.

[Chill Wills]

Using a taper crimp die for sizing the case it is concentric with no runout unless the case wall has been pulled from many loads fired. They get thicker usually on one side more then all the way around.
The only time when I use a sizing die is when I get a new batch of brass. They don't fit my tight chambers so I need to full length size them. Just my way, but it works.

Kurt, I am always surprised, but shouldn't be, by how we all can have such varied outcomes! Your statement above (in red) is an example.
I have found that the more my cases are shot the more even the walls become. Case in point; I made up a large batch of 45-70 brass for a very tight chambered rifle using Winchester brass. The reamer was a design of Mike Lewis. He wanted to use Remington brass and Rem brass was thinner in the mouth wall area and thicker in the web then Win brass. I forgot his reason for Liking the Remington brass but I had two thousand Winchester cases and they would not work with 0.459" bullets and fully seat into the chamber with thumb pressure. (Remington would!) So, I neck turned a bunch of them. Just about three hundred of them. I have been shooting this rifle ten or fifteen matches a year plus lots of load testing and I am guessing much of this brass has 50-60 loadings on it. I don't track it so that is a guess at best.

Because of your last post, I just went into the shop and mic'd 15 cases with a tube mic, one with the correct anvil for checking cases wall thickness so no guessing here. I turned the necks way back when to be 0.008+ to 0.009- inches. They still are and they are dead on all the way around the cases.
I have no idea why we have such different outcomes! ????

That is one of the interesting things about this pastime.

[Lead pot]

I know what your saying. Most of my problem with the difference in case necks is with Remington stretched .45 cases and the 30-40 stretched brass for the .40-70. After several loadings when I check for stretching I find that there are what I call pulled lips, where the case mouth has high points and after several trims the neck wall will vary from .008 to .010" plus in some cases on one side of the mouth. The Starline cases I don't have this problem. The .50-90 Bell brass is even worse. Like you I seldom anneal after the first time use of the new cases.

[Gunlaker]

This is getting interesting. Michael, I have been annealing every firing for both PP and GG bullets. I do not know if it has helped reduce my SD's, but it does reduce the fouling blowback I sometimes see on case mouths. I should spend some time to see if I'm really gaining anything doing this, but my chronograph really isnt consistent enough to help me decide.

I have had the case mouth thickening unevenly like Kurt says, but only on my breech seated loads. In my .32-40's once a case gets mor than a hundred or so firings, it's generally longer on one side than the other. It looks very strange. It happens much quicker if I anneal, so I stopped doing that for my schuetzen rifles.

Like Michael, my ideas of what is effective regarding load development has changed over time. I bet that it will continue to change until I really get the hang of this stuff. I don't see a lot of difference in the difficulty of working up loads with GG's vs PP. I think that if a rifle is chambered well, and has a good barrel, it's a lot easier to develop a load for than a lesser rifle.

Some of the easiest have been my .40-65 Shiloh, and my new .45-70 PP rifle that Steve Rhoades chambered for me. The Shiloh was easy, as I mostly did what others seemed to be doing, and the .45-70 I sort of did what Brent does, except that I used Dan's bullet and paper thickness. That rifle seemed to require zero load development :-).

Chris.

[BrentD]

I've been annealing a lot lately. Not because I think it helps but because I made a fancy automated annealer because I had 1250 pieces of .45-70 Starline to turn into .40-65. Having done that, I keep annealing because I like to use the machine. My scores have not improved :(

I'll probably quit annealing when I get tired of playing with my little machine. It was fun to build though.

I've never turned a neck on any case. Maybe I should someday. With bore diameter paper patches loaded correctly, however, I can't see how it is likely to matter much.

[country gent]

I ussually anneal every 3 rd loading, sometimes 2nd loading. But this is more to extend case life than anything. I havent turned or reamed any BPCR rounds but have turned some others ( a tight necked 243 nra match rifle and a widcatt 6.5 long range rifle with fitted necks). Neck turning is a slow process and tedious at times. I only neck size down to the base of the bullet at the most with a mecham bushing die. Or partial size to set neck tension I want. I believe you get more run out from expanders than the sizing dies since the case is supported more completely in the sizing dies. When expanding the case is just sort of floating there on to the expander. The press also has an affect on concentricity if its not square and true. Given all the variables its amazing these rifles shoot as good as they do. A little experimenting and testing will show the way.

[RPRNY]

I've been annealing a lot lately. Not because I think it helps but because I made a fancy automated annealer because I had 1250 pieces of .45-70 Starline to turn into .40-65. Having done that, I keep annealing because I like to use the machine. My scores have not improved :(

I'll probably quit annealing when I get tired of playing with my little machine. It was fun to build though.

I've never turned a neck on any case. Maybe I should someday. With bore diameter paper patches loaded correctly, however, I can't see how it is likely to matter much.

I love it when somebody admits to something like this. It's exactly the sort of thing I would do. You are not alone. ;-)

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk

[rfd]

maybe i'm an anomaly in the bpcr game, but i see no need to anneal. all brass is loaded as fire formed, no dies ever involved after their maiden firing. a press is only needed for powder compression. i have brass that's been black powder fired over 30 times with no ill effects, still looking good as new. the brass do get well cleaned Inside and out (ultrasonic is THE way to go for me), and there's little if any case stretching or trimming required.

fwiw with regards to case chamber indexing, i emailed last night with a past state bpcr champion friend in cali who goes as far as indexing his primers (if the firing pin doesn't hit dead center), let alone his brass. interesting stuff.

[Lead pot]

Here is a book that will give you a inside of what they did during the time the cartridge came around. It had a 6 part so to read it all you have to bring up the rest. But it is good reading.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t2f77h94m;view=1up;seq=3

[rfd]

what a great read! thanx lead pot!

[Lead pot]

RFD here is another good one. I have this one in print. You can also down load these in the PDF format and print them out on three hole paper and bind them in a note book.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=loc.ark:/13960/t7np2xc3t;view=1up;seq=1

[Chill Wills]

So, really most of you, not all, do some kind of sizing to the case either pre or post installing the bullet - and so do I.
We might be closer than not to doing the same thing. In my case, I neck size only to get the case neck back to a point I can run an expanding plug the size of the bullet in the case.

My "just load them in the fired case" like the buffalo hunters are portrayed doing - it certainly would have been accurate enough for buffalo but just good enough for 24 of 30 laydown silhouette animals. I would describe it is a 1.5 MOA load with 2.5 flyers. The odd, stray shot does not help.

One really interesting thing happens when the various owners of these loading ideas get together at a rifle range and shoot a match together. We talk about all the ways we can assemble BPCR ammo and we see how it works out.

[Lead pot]

Michael when you design your own reamer for what ever bullet you use, GG or PP you can just reload the fired case after it is cleaned. If you get it right no sizing. Now days the average .45 parent cases have a chamber at .482 +- a little but mostly .482" and those cases you size to hold the bullet. Yes you can shoot and load those but like you I never was satisfied with the accuracy especially with the PP patched to bore diameter. My .45 chamber is .4746" that is tight enough that I have to twist my bullet to seat it in the case. No I cant shoot GG's in it. :)

[Chill Wills]

Yup, got that about 30 years ago.
But, for GG bullets like I like to shoot, you can get into a little trouble if you out smart yourself and go too tight. Been there too.
My current rifles have have nowhere near the large chambers described above but still have 0.002" release and so I use a neck sizer to get it beck to where I need it. I have had the necks cut as a cylinder where the bullet / case mouth is located. I put that to good use when the big red light comes on.
Going tighter than that works sometimes until you stick a case. One of my 38-55's is set up this way. Shoots well and no need to size or expand but will stick the odd case at the wrong time - when the clock is ticking.

[Lead pot]

Yes that can happen. One of my .44's used to have a problem extracting the case till I shot then a few times but this stopped. My new .45-90 still has cases that are hard to extract but they have only been shot two of three times. Tight chamber has a tendency to do this.

[TXGunNut]

Timely thread! I'm trying to sort this out now and so far my rifles like their cases sized....just not very much sizing. They even seem to like a bit of taper crimp but I'm still puzzling over that. Never did figure out my first 45-90 but it seemed to like unsized cases, just not well enough.

[Chill Wills]

Yes that can happen. One of my .44's used to have a problem extracting the case till I shot then a few times but this stopped. My new .45-90 still has cases that are hard to extract but they have only been shot two of three times. Tight chamber has a tendency to do this.
Kurt, I did not mean having trouble getting the fired case out of the chamber!

Every once in a while there is, for some unknown reason, trouble getting the loaded case into the chamber. It is not uncommon. While the tendency is to just push it in and shoot if it possible, I have found it is better to remove the case - often less the bullet and you end up still needing to knock the bullet from the chamber with a rod while on the line - clock ticking.

The other choice is to pry the stuck round the rest of the way into the chamber. When you do this you will likely end up with a high impact. I have found it is better to get it out and replace it with a fresh round than take the easy way out.

[montana_charlie]

Kurt, I did not mean having trouble getting the fired case out of the chamber!

Every once in a while there is, for some unknown reason, trouble getting the loaded case into the chamber. It is not uncommon.
When that happens, have you segregated that case and checked all of it's dimensions at a later time?
Was anything out of kilter?

I have found cases (occasionally) that are 'fat' right in front of the rim ... enough to to make full insertion difficult.
(I shoot unsized cases and thumb seated bullets.)

[Chill Wills]

Charlie, I think that is true of most of them. I do try to put them aside and look into the problem at home so it does not get me a second time.
I have had whole lots of brass start to get a little sticky. Maybe a more accurate way to say it is a number of the cases start to give trouble and the whole lot of them gets a partial FL size. Kind of a contradiction in terms but I think you know what I mean. I just screw the FL die in to the point (while mic'ing) and checking the offenders in the chamber that I feel like the problem gets addressed. Then I do the entire lot of brass.

[semtav]

I get quite few that do that too. Mine usually wind up being near the base so I have to make something to size only the base area or I wind up having to cam them in .I still haven't figured out how they do that.

[montana_charlie]

I get quite few that do that too. Mine usually wind up being near the base so I have to make something to size only the base area or I wind up having to cam them in .I still haven't figured out how they do that.
I don't know what causes it, but I'm glad to know I am not the only one seeing it.
This is the tool I use to fix any cases that suffer from the syndrome.


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Web%20Sizer_zpst62bohto.jpg

It is a leftover from the days when we were developing the Kal-Max Stretcher.
It is a threaded 'body' with a half-inch drill bushing cemented into the top.

Mounted in a press, I use a plastic mallet to tap a case into the bushing, then use the ram and a 'pusher' to get it out.
My 'pusher' is a short piece of aluminum 3/8ths rod from the scrap pile.

I use unresized cases, and this tool only affects the quarter inch right in front of the rim.
It does not cause me to have to re-fireform any 'fixed' cases.

[Chill Wills]

I don't know what causes it, but I'm glad to know I am not the only one seeing it.
This is the tool I use to fix any cases that suffer from the syndrome.


http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/Web%20Sizer_zpst62bohto.jpg



That looks great. You can size down to the rim with out getting the rest of the case in front of the tight spot. And. 0.500" is the right number.