1st Post and Paper Question

[DHDeal]

1st Post and 1st Questions.

Assuming (bad word I know) I'm patching a .40 caliber bullet, how many patches can be expected per sheet of paper?

I have been shooting BPCR's since 2001, but have never shot the first paper patched bullet. I've only shot my own GG cast bullets. I have and use Paul Jones, Old West, BACO, and Brooks GG molds. I tend to go ahead and get good molds to start with. I have also tried quite a few factory molds and while the bullets shoot well, don't provide all of the features a custom mold will. I also use and have a lot of Swiss 1.5F and 3F and I have a stash of GOEX powders that include Cartridge, 2F, 3F, and Express in 2F and 3F.

My rifles are a CSA Highwall in 45/70 (which will be rebarreled to 38/55 soon) and a Dave Crossno Hepburn in 40/65. The Hepburn will be my test rifle for this. It has a Douglas barrel and with GG bullets can be depended on to shoot slightly over moa to 600 yards. I've recently found that a Douglas 40 cal barrel is .400" bore and .410" groove. As it shoots my cast bullets so well now, they must be getting a nice smack in the buttocks and bumping up. The mold I use exclusively now in the 40 is a BACO Money @ .409". I run the bullets through a Lee sizer die (.410") that just touches the 3 lower driving bands as the top 2 are tapered.

I'll probably statrt with a BACO elliptical style mold, but don't really know what size yet. I am in the process of getting some of the old 25% cotton 9lb onion skin paper.

After all that bouncing around, I now have 2 questions:

1 - what size mold?
2 - about how many patches will I get per piece of paper (standard size sheet)?

[Don McDowell]

For that 40 go with a .396 diameter.
You can get about 2 dozen patches per sheet of 8.5 x 11.
I would suggest if you have a Staples office supply go in to their drafting dept. and get a roll of their 8 lb tracing paper, it is really close to Seth Cole 55w.

[DHDeal]

Thanks Don. Just trying to finish up my shopping list. I really don't want to have shelves over flowing with stuff I won't use. Like that's gonna happen. I already have shelves overflowing with smokeless stuff and don't want to think about all of the stuff for my GG bullets.

[Don McDowell]

You're welcome,, but now you're going to have a shelf full of stuff equal to the grease grooves, except that shelf will also hold felt wads, wad cutters, various wad material, bottle of jojoba oil, patch templates, cutting boards, self healing mats, paper cutters of various descriptions.. LOL

I like the BACO 360 gr. .400 diameter creed moor bullet. It shoots consistently well in my 40-70 out to 600 , where a couple of other bullets can get a bit dicey if it's windy.

You'll also want to chamfer the inside of the case mouths for your pp loads.

[Yellowhouse]

Don, won't .396 be a tad tight? My 40-70 Shiloh is 400 and a .392 bullet wrapped with Baco 25 lb is about right.

[Don McDowell]

Sam yes it is tight, but it doesn't matter as long as you're doing a good job wiping between shots. I also use mostly 8 lb. paper. Only use the 9 lb. on tapered and dual diameter bullets.

[DHDeal]

I'll only need to get the mold and a few other items. Anyway, I have a good amount of the 9 pound 25% cotton paper on the way. I need to be careful with the bullet mold as my Douglas is a 1-16" twist. 400's shoot good to 600 yards, but who knows where it will fall apart. Talking GG here. Don't know squat about PP yet.

[country gent]

Another good addition to that shelf is Randolh S Wrights book Loading and shooting the paper patched bullet A begineers guide. Alot of information and How to with good explanations.

[BrentD]

This is the .40 cal mould a friend and have had BACO make for us for a pair of dedicated paper patched .40-65s. We use a 9# paper for all of our paper patching needs, and that will be ideal for this bullet. http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Patch_Bullet_Mold_it-1201293.aspx?CAT=4160.

[Lead pot]

Brent, How long is that bullet?

[BrentD]

Good question I don't remember.

Let's see. I'll measure one...

Ad the answer is... 1.417"

[Lead pot]

. I haven't shot my .40's for a long time. That bullet looks like it would make a fine one for long range. !.4 should still hold well in a 16 twist.
But it would be a hard push at that diameter with .0018 paper.

[BrentD]

I will never shoot a .40 in long range. Too many have tried and done not well. I doubt I would even use it in midrange unless I knew for sure it would be a mild day, and even then I probably would stick with the .45s. But for silhouette, well, I'm going to do it. Dropping 100 grs of lead and 10 grs of powder should help in hitting chickens and maybe not give up any rams and turkeys. Time will tell.

[BrentD]

Oh, I should add, we are building 14 twist rifles. We couldn't make up our minds so we went with the faster twist.

[Lead pot]

I'm working on a 14 twist CPA for next year. I want to play the silhouette game next year. I like the shooters over at Alma MI and I have two matches left this year there. This will be my second match. And your right, the .40 would be better for the iron critters.

[Don McDowell]

40 works fine , but if the hits get below the center line on the rams, you can have a big pretty lead splat on his belly, while he just stands there and laughs and laughs... Don't have that problem with original sharps styled 44's :)

[BrentD]

I never lost a ram with a 300 gr .38 bullet. Knocking them down is hardly an issue. Hitting them (and chickens) is.

[Gunlaker]

I have lost one on a hit just below CM with the Saeco #740 going 1250 fps, but since switching to a 400gr money going 1300 fps I've noticed they come off the rail much quicker.

I'll bet that bullet works pretty well in the 1:14 twist at the ram line.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

I rang the one with the BACO 396408 creed moor out of the 40-65, and had one with the saeco 740 in the 40-70 that got a hit just behind the flank, it shoved him back a touch bit left him standing , but before I could get the bore wiped and ready for the next shot he fell off...
That 360 gr patched bullet out of the 4070 sure sends the pigs, turkeys and chickens to flying.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

if your bore is a true 0.400", a 0.395" bullet is versatile.
seth cole 55 w tracing paper will add 0.005 to a bullet when patched wet, and 9 lb baco paper will add a bit over 0.006, giving 2 options.
brent's bullet is a good one, but go to a ballistic calculator and make sure you can get a stability of 1.8 to 2.00 before you buy it.
I have the same bullet at 0.396 for breech seating and it takes a bit of pushing in even patched with seth cole.
used in fixed ammo you might need fair compression on the powder, or strong neck tension or both to chamber a round with a consistent cartridge overall length.
keep safe,
bruce.

[DHDeal]

I remember most of you from Shiloh and other BPCR forums years ago. I've been shooting 600 yard benchrest for the last 8 years and my 2 BPCR's have been towards the back of my rifle safe. I pull them out quarterly for a wipe down with Eezox and decided I needed to shoot up some older loaded ammo. They shot well enough to renew interest. One of the pains for me has always been cleaning brass with ceramic media and the time involved. Since I have an ultrasonic cleaner, I figured I'd give it a try. Yep, works great and takes minutes, not hours.

Back to the mold. I have no problem ordering a Brooks (sad to see Paul Jones out of business) or other custom mold. I have had good luck with BACO though and will probably order one from them unless you all suggest otherwise. Do you find a "Money", elliptical nose, or Creedmoor style nose works better? This will be for 600 yards.

Thanks Brent/Don/Chris and others. Brent, I read your PP site/information years back but figured shooting GG bullets was easier/faster/more accurate/etc...... It seems I should give them a try because I like to test stuff anyway. I've also started wiping between shots (more consistent accuracy for me) so any excuses I may have had are gone. I will only shoot targets and steel with these rifles so a lube wad isn't necessary? Hope not, but will use one if it helps accuracy. I'll say it plain here, accuracy is what I'm after. If my benchrest barrels don't perform as expected (hasn't happened yet as I use Bartlein/Krieger/Brux barrels) I'll pull them and go to another.

The reason I will start with the 40-65 is that after shooting Benchrest for so long (and still will) I don't want to deal with too much recoil. My barrel is a Douglas and they are listed as .400" b and .410" g. I may do a chamber cast as I am interested in how long my chamber is. I've seen where too long of a chamber will cut the patch?? I know exactly what my max case length is for my smokeless chambers and trim accordingly.

I have some Eaton 9lb 25% cotton paper ordered and all I need to do is decide which mold and hit "pay" on my Buffalo Arms order. I have about 500 lbs of 20-1 ingots and still have some pure lead and tin if I need to go with another alloy. Wads, brass, and powder I have probably enough to last many year's.

I'll keep reading and look up some of the books mentioned. Any information is appreciated as I am not one to try and reinvent a wheel. I always fine tune stuff, but if something works for a lot of others I will use it in a heartbeat.

[BrentD]

DJD, while my .40-65 is still under construction, I would recommend 72 gr of Swiss 1.5, a 0.06" poly wad or similar fiber wad (either can be had from BACO), and CCI br2 primers. I would not allow more than 0.1" of bullet inside the case. No lube of any kind.

That should get you started.

[DHDeal]

I have the wads already. I'm going to have to wrap my head around putting that much powder in the case. I usually shoot 59 grains of Swiss 3F, but 61 grains of Swiss 1.5F shoots well also. I've always used a 30" drop tube for adding powder and don't usually use much compression with the GG Money bullet. I haven't chrono'd that load in a long time so I don't remember the data.

My barrel is a 30" 1-16" twist. Won't the bullet mentioned be somewhat unstable? I'll run the numbers and see what I get.

I'll admit the shape of the elliptical nose looks good.

[BrentD]

DJD, while my .40-65 is still under construction, I would recommend 72 gr of Swiss 1.5, a 0.06" poly wad or similar fiber wad (either can be had from BACO), and CCI br2 primers. I would not allow more than 0.1" of bullet inside the case. No lube of any kind.

That should get you started.

[Don McDowell]

DhDeal, if you go with a Brooks mould at a length your twist will be sure to stabilize, ask for his new postel nose.
60 grs. of Olde Eynsford 2f, is shooting very well in 2 different 40-65's that live here.