Is this called swaging ?

[DoctorBill]

Whenever I try to find some information about swaging, I come across
stuff about Copper Jacketing.

I want to take some Cast Paper Patch Bullets that I made and make a
Die and Punch to reform them under intense pressure - "Finish" them..

The Cast Bullets (Wheel Weight Metal) are not all that good. lol
The tips and ends are not perfect (home made Die) and I figure that were
I to squeeze them in a Die of the same shape, they would reform to a better shape.

https://s19.postimg.org/htyrnidib/Newly+Cast Bullets.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/yj07jfa3n/Cast_Bullet_Ends.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/c8ccjgctf/Cast_Bullet_Sides.jpg

Is what I want to do called "Swaging" ? No Copper Jacket.

I know they make plain old 22 caliber bullets by Pressure (Stamping)
very quickly. It is done, but I don't know the Jargon.

I have some ideas on how to make a die and a ram for each end, but I
am not sure a one ton Arbor Press or an RCBS Press would produce
sufficient pressure to squish the bullets into shape.

DoctorBill

[RPRNY]

Yes, that would be swaging - the forming of bullets under pressure. As to the rest...

[DoctorBill]

What kind of pressure is required ?

I have a 12 ton Harbor Freight Shop Press (Hydraulic), a one ton Arbor Press
(lever and gear) and a regular RCBS Press.

Can one hammer the ram with a small sledge ?

I figure that I can make a cylindrical die with a bottom ram and top ram with
the appropriate shapes and squeeze the Cast Bullets between the Rams.

Getting the Bullet out of the Die is what I believe I would have trouble with.

Are they hard to remove from the Die ?

I have pure lead, so I could make these Cast Bullets with soft lead.

I normally Paper Patch these things and they shoot fine (Target 100 yds).

I have a 9 inch Chinese Lathe and a Harbor Freight Mini-Milling Machine.
Using both, I have made several Aluminum Molds and several hard steel
dies for taper crimping paper patched 45-70's and Martini-Henry .577-450's.

I bought a couple boxes of Buffalo Arms Paper Patching bullets and
they were pressure formed (Swaged) - not cast - they were perfect !
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Patch_Bullets_it-161926.aspx?CAT=4528

If they can make them, then by God, I can make them !
I just need some educating.....

DoctorBill

[varmint243]

The swage dies I have are ground to size, not cut to size.
They are rather precise.
Not easy DIY stuff, unless you have some serious skills.
As far as the press, I use a 1 ton HF arbor press with a handle twice as long as the original for some operations.
I use a RCII for the final operation and I can tell I could break it if I was careless.
My friend has a proper swaging press and there is no comparison.
I am also inclined to believe you should be able to cast well enough to not need to swage afterwards.




What kind of pressure is required ?

I have a 12 ton Harbor Freight Shop Press (Hydraulic), a one ton Arbor Press
(lever and gear) and a regular RCBS Press.

Can one hammer the ram with a small sledge ?

I figure that I can make a cylindrical die with a bottom ram and top ram with
the appropriate shapes and squeeze the Cast Bullets between the Rams.

Getting the Bullet out of the Die is what I believe I would have trouble with.

Are they hard to remove from the Die ?

I have pure lead, so I could make these Cast Bullets with soft lead.

I normally Paper Patch these things and they shoot fine (Target 100 yds).

I have a 9 inch Chinese Lathe and a Harbor Freight Mini-Milling Machine.
Using both, I have made several Aluminum Molds and several hard steel
dies for taper crimping paper patched 45-70's and Martini-Henry .577-450's.

I bought a couple boxes of Buffalo Arms Paper Patching bullets and
they were pressure formed (Swaged) - not cast - they were perfect !
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Patch_Bullets_it-161926.aspx?CAT=4528

If they can make them, then by God, I can make them !
I just need some educating.....

DoctorBill

[kc3ak]

The dies you get from the Corbin brothers are drilled, reamed, hardened then diamond lapped. Easy enough to do after you have 10 or 15 years experience, I would guess. Just kidding a bit there, but I do believe it is a lot more difficult to do that just straight machine work. I have made operational steam engines, but would not even try to make a swaging die.

[runfiverun]

the point form die is the hardest one to make of them all and that's what you need here.
if you just got rid of that ridge on the base and run your mold hotter you'd have some much better boolits.

okay that's out of the way.
when you point form a chunk of lead you push it into a die and then use a rod to punch the piece back out again.
I have done it with a mallet and with my palm.
your gonna want to make a D--cutter to ream the die first then polish it out to round and the proper diameter.
you'll need a base punch that closely fits the die to avoid lead pressing around the side of it.
you also swage up in diameter, only .001 is enough but you want the core to slip in the die then bump up and fill out the inside of the die under pressure.
you don't have to apply tons of pressure just a firm even squeeze and hesitate [maintaining pressure] to allow everything to move.
a consistent core weight will produce better more consistent results.

[Huvius]

Swaging is what you are thinking of but one issue you may run into is that you want to swage a boolit to the same diameter as the beginning cast core - your current boolit.
It may not feed into the die well without stripping lead from the sides. I have done this myself and now know that it is better to start with an undersized core or cylinder of lead as you end up with little rings of extruded lead collecting around the base pin and what you are doing is cookie cutting the lead into the die which just cannot be good for the longevity of the die.
A hammer die is a very reasonable alternative if you don't happen to have a stout press. Really, a cylinder with the required sized hole in it, a base pin with either a flat end or raised end for cupped bases and a top pin with your desired ogive shape for the nose is all that is needed - oh, and a 5lb or heavier sledge hammer. Lube it up a little and give 'er a whack! I know a few folks bumping up boolits this way.
If your base on your cast boolits is bothering you, it can easily be trimmed off with a razor knife (box cutter) leaving a nice flat base which is OK. You don't need a cupped base to make a good shooting boolit.

I fully understand your desire to move to swaging over casting.
I have had trouble in the past with getting really good results casting and now have a swaging set up for my .458" patched boolits (actually .459" patched) which I can use in five or six of my rifles (using smokeless). On cannot argue with the quality results obtained with swaging.
I have posted this picture before, but it is just so satisfying!
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg312/Huvius/DSCN8261.jpg (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/Huvius/media/DSCN8261.jpg.html)

[Traffer]

You may not know the jargon but you obviously know what you are doing. Is that picture of .458 bullets for paper patching? Do I understand you correctly that you are swaging these bullets from unmelted wheel weights? I have been doing something similar with 22lr bullets. Just started this stuff less than a year ago.22lr are pretty easy to swage. But because both ends have smaller diameters (because of the hollow base with a rebate because the bullet diameter is the same diameter as the case) So I have to use two dies with punch holes in both dies.
---
(I just re read your post and see that you are casting bullets and swaging them to a finish. I do much the same with the little 22lr. Others use a similar method to impart hollow bases into their bullets with the appropriately shaped punches.)


Whenever I try to find some information about swaging, I come across
stuff about Copper Jacketing.

I want to take some Cast Paper Patch Bullets that I made and make a
Die and Punch to reform them under intense pressure - "Finish" them..

The Cast Bullets (Wheel Weight Metal) are not all that good. lol
The tips and ends are not perfect (home made Die) and I figure that were
I to squeeze them in a Die of the same shape, they would reform to a better shape.

https://s19.postimg.org/htyrnidib/Newly+Cast Bullets.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/yj07jfa3n/Cast_Bullet_Ends.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/c8ccjgctf/Cast_Bullet_Sides.jpg

Is what I want to do called "Swaging" ? No Copper Jacket.

I know they make plain old 22 caliber bullets by Pressure (Stamping)
very quickly. It is done, but I don't know the Jargon.

I have some ideas on how to make a die and a ram for each end, but I
am not sure a one ton Arbor Press or an RCBS Press would produce
sufficient pressure to squish the bullets into shape.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Traffer - no, the bullets in the photos are wheel weight Cast Bullets from an Aluminum Mold that I made. They are .429 cal and paper patched to .457 cal.
Three rolls of Newsprint put on wet. Patched to just under the groove diameter for my 45-70's - Black Powder.

I used a "D-Bit" I had made to shape the Aluminum Mold.

The Bullet falls out of the Solid mold w/o being pushed out because it has a
slight taper - smaller diameter at the top than the bottom. I polished the taper into
the mold with Flitz Polish and the bullet on a stick.
Pictures at end of post

To be honest, I do not know how to make the traditional split mold like one buys
from LEE or RCBS !

I am thinking of trying to make a Swaging Die to swage (compress) those bullets into the perfect shape I did not obtain from the molding process.

Yes - I do use a knife to trim the base. If fact, I am considering making a rotary blade with a convex shape of the bullet base that would trim the base to a perfect shape - mount it in my Lathe Chuck and hand press the bullet's base into the cutter (slowly and carefully!).

I could make a concave cutter to trim the bullet's head to a nice round shape - like a pencil sharpener.

But - I would like to try a swaging die.

I have made punches on my Lathe to cut card disks with Threaded Rod and Drill Rod Steel for loading my 45-70's and Martini-Henri .577-450 BP Cartridges, so I can make the hollow die and the hardened steel punches. Not all that difficult.
You have to polish the punches in the die until they fit perfectly - time consuming.

I posted how I did that on this forum some time ago.

If I made a steel die and the two end punches, I could use my one ton Arbor Press to "finish off" those cast bullets. Use the Cast Bullets as starting material for the swaging die.

Getting the swaged bullet out of the press is what has me stymied. That involves some
clever use of springs and such. I don't need an elaborate press as I have much time on my hands - I am retired (73 years old).

I need something to do....

DoctorBill

PS - Traffer ! I do not know what I am doing - maybe 20%, if that !

This is a Double sided mold - makes two different shaped bullets.
Screw in threaded handle. Sprue Cutter can be used on either side.
Aluminum Block - bullets fall out when sprue is cut off.
https://s19.postimg.org/azaoslgpv/Side_View.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/kza6m8hcz/CCC.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/gfxy0pzhf/DDD.jpg

I polish the bullet cavity with a Bullet from the mold cast with an
Aluminum Wire stuck in the end of that bullet. Bullet shown is
one from the OTHER SIDE of this mold.
Flitz Metal Polish. Spinning (makes it symmetrical) and in and out
(makes it tapered) - wash - repeat.
https://s19.postimg.org/lc6665p0j/FFF.jpg

[Huvius]

So they ARE undersized already.
Yes, they will work great as cores for swaging just make sure they are as uniform as you can get them unless you want to incorporate a bleed hole in the die which can be done too so they all end up exactly the same weight.

[clodhopper]

DoctorBill,
The die you propose could have the base punch threaded, with a sleeve that goes the length from the die to a nut threaded on your base punch. Tightening the nut will pull the base punch out.
The nose punch then can be pushed through the die, pushing the bullet out, on the arbor press.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You will find a great deal of useful formation on the Corbin website, even if you plan on making your own dies:

http://www.swage.com/

The first point is that good swage dies do depend on extreme smoothness, produced by lapping. I would probably do it in the milling machine or lathe, without moving the block at all after drilling the cavity. Flitz polish is good within its limits, but a lapidary shop can provide you with a succession of grades of silicon carbide or aluminium oxide powder.

It is a pretty good rule that in making things with holes in them, you should make first the inside and then the outside around it. In this case the edge of your bullet mould would look more regular if you skimmed a little off the top. I also don't see the point of the slight lip around the base, which is extremely likely to be nicked or irregularly cast, and produce asymmetric gas leak at the muzzle. With a patched bullet you don't need it, and with unpatched it ought to be deeper and thicker. I'd be inclined to use sprue plates at top and bottom (with no sprue at the bottom of course), and perhaps join them with a metal rod to move together.

[Traffer]

As far as the mold, as you are making them with a home made "d" reamer, I think you are half way there already. I haven't done this yet, It's one of my future projects. I will also post some pics of the swaging dies that I have made for the 22lr and discuss the MANY obstacles that I encountered and am still encountering.
Here is a link to the "D" reamer mold process:
https://youtu.be/m1YPTarNliw
And welcome to CastBoolits!

[Traffer]

Here is a pic of one of my swaged (and knurled) 22lr bullets. It has a deeply punched hollow base that you cannot see. I took the pic because it was my first batch of powder coated and I over-baked the damn things so the powder coat now scratches off. But you can see what a person can accomplish in making dies with just a dremel and drills for machine tools.173807

[Bent Ramrod]

What kind of pressure is required ?

I have a 12 ton Harbor Freight Shop Press (Hydraulic), a one ton Arbor Press
(lever and gear) and a regular RCBS Press.

Can one hammer the ram with a small sledge ?

I figure that I can make a cylindrical die with a bottom ram and top ram with
the appropriate shapes and squeeze the Cast Bullets between the Rams.

Getting the Bullet out of the Die is what I believe I would have trouble with.

Are they hard to remove from the Die ?

I have pure lead, so I could make these Cast Bullets with soft lead.

I normally Paper Patch these things and they shoot fine (Target 100 yds).

I have a 9 inch Chinese Lathe and a Harbor Freight Mini-Milling Machine.
Using both, I have made several Aluminum Molds and several hard steel
dies for taper crimping paper patched 45-70's and Martini-Henry .577-450's.

I bought a couple boxes of Buffalo Arms Paper Patching bullets and
they were pressure formed (Swaged) - not cast - they were perfect !
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Paper_Patch_Bullets_it-161926.aspx?CAT=4528

If they can make them, then by God, I can make them !
I just need some educating.....

DoctorBill

You can use an arbor press (people at least reportedly use arbor presses for this) or hammer the ram with a small sledge. Here is the kind of die used with the latter method.

173828 173829 173830

The main body of the die is a reamed and polished half-inch hole in a metal cylinder; the bottom is the point former and the ram forms the hollow base. Judicious banging on the latter with a brass hammer should swage the lead core or lead casting to the interior shape of the swage. Note the T handle which is probably necessary for extracting the ram and the knurling for twisting the other two pieces apart. There is a gouge in the sidewall of this specimen; probably somebody used a piece of rebar or something to try to get a bullet out. You would need some kind of precision fit punch a little longer than the die, and a hole in a piece of wood to catch the bullet as it is gently tapped out. Some light lubrication would probably be necessary.

Dr. Mann reported that he used an arbor press to swage bullets, but my experience with a rather large one outside our machine shop, which had a ratchet mechanism in the pinion drive and a big rack for the plunger (plus a long cheater bar on the lever) indicated to me that it would likely require my full weight on the lever, and maybe more, to make any lead flow. Some sort of compound linkage, like on an RCBS press, would multiply the operator's force much better.

If you are a really top drawer diemaker, you can make the point forming portion integral with the die body and only have the base forming ram as the loose part. Ned Roberts said that was the kind of die you typically got with your muzzle loading slug gun in the old days. He also noted that sometimes, getting the bullet out of the die was a major operation, which called for a fair amount of beating on the outside and profane oaths.

[DoctorBill]

Oh - YES !

I am VERY good at profane oaths ! I majored in Profane Oaths in the College of life....

Reading about olde time swaging dies with only one ram and relying on the bullet
falling out sounds like my cup of tea !

I was wondering about making one like that and putting a hardened wood screw
on the end of the bottom ram. It should swage the screw into the bullet and allow
the swaged bullet to be "pulled" out and then unscrewed from the ram.... ? ? ?

Do the Profane Oaths really work !? I know some real duzzi's ! Like "Hillary !"

DoctorBill

PS - I also am wondering if one could use compressed air to expel the bullet
after the ram is eased back ? Just don't get your face in the way....

Really way out idea - Can one make a bullet that whistles loudly in flight ?

[DoctorBill]

I do believe that I will endeavor to make the following Die:

https://s19.postimg.org/ouimlx6ub/Punch_Diagram.jpg

and I will use this Steel Rod I found in a Metal Recycling Yard.

https://s19.postimg.org/sfei55bdv/Stock_Rod_to_Use.jpg

Ought to be a fun project ! It will keep me out of trouble.....

DoctorBill

PS - any comments on using an Air Compressor to eject the bullet ?

[DoctorBill]

Made the Die. Reamed out the shape with my "D-Bit" - BUT....

Have no 7/16th Drill Rod around ! Thought I had some !
Must have used it all up a couple of years ago.
Lost track of everything when my wife got Cancer....she is OK now.
Chemo is amazing ! Hideous, but they have made such progress !
You poison the Cancer and just barely not poison the body.

So - ordered two 3 ft lengths from ENCO. Be here Monday.

Obvious that the swaged bullet won't 'fall out' ! Want to try compressed air
to somehow force it out after swaging it...

Pictures coming....a work in progress.

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

Have you decided how you are going to trim the bases? I am doing the 22lr in a similar way except for it having an opening at each end with a punch at each end. Some of the bases have to be trimmed. Been also trying to figure an accurate and fast way to trim them.

[DoctorBill]

Here is where I am - currently Aug 13, 2016 - waiting for 7/16 Drill Rod to arrive (UPS).
I had unknowingly run out of that Drill Rod - Good for .45 cal PP Bullet Mold making.

Top and Bottom Halves - Still Polishing the cavity with "FLITZ METAL POLISH".
https://s19.postimg.org/l0azbpgwz/Swaging_Punch_Ax.jpg

I am thinking of trying Compressed Air ejection of the swaged Bullet...(?)
https://s19.postimg.org/ix0k41h43/Swaging_Punch_Bx.jpg

Here is what it would look like in operation. I inserted the D-Bit just to
indicate how the Ram would look inserted in the top...
https://s19.postimg.org/nk6m5t4gz/Swaging_Punch_Cx.jpg

Where everything goes
https://s19.postimg.org/9rs7a6dpf/Swaging_Punch_Dx.jpg

Once the Drill Rod arrives by UPS on Monday (8-15-2016), I will shape the
end of the rod and cut it off at the appropriate length to make the "RAM".

I know the swaged bullet will not easily come out (lol), so I want to drill
as small a hole as I can into the cavity (bottom), Drill & Tap a hole to hold
an air port (like on an innertube) to eject the bullet (into a Cotton Lined Box)
with my Air Compressor.

The whole thing is a bit too long for my Arbor Press - I may trim the top
to shorten it. I have a 12 Ton Hydraulic Shop Press, but that may be OVERKILL !

Traffer - the RAM should make the bullet base be the shape I want (I hope!).

This may all go south and be a big pile of Hillary - stay tuned....

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

I don't think that compressed air will work. What I do is to have a small diameter top punch hole and tap it out. I use a Size 16 Drill hole I think it's around .190". But I have abandoned that method. Now I push them out from the base to the nose. I use the base punch to push them out. In the end where they come out (obviously the bigger end) I use a top punch to make the nose round. I can only make semi-wad cutters that way but with powder coating that is all I need.

[DoctorBill]

Traffer - Why did you abandon the "top punch" ?

I was going to do that, but wondered 'what is to keep the top punch from
squishing out ?' I don't mind a small flat top to the bullet - like it comes out
of the casting mold now. See the photos in the first post.

I have never swaged anything, so I don't know what to expect.
High pressure can do a lot of strange things.....

Why don't you think Compressed air (50 - 80 psi) will work ?
Have YOU tried it ? Is the bullet jammed that tightly in the die ?

I don't know how to make a top punch with a concave shape to give
the bullet a rounded tip form - which is what I wanted to do.
https://s19.postimg.org/z0d13uin7/Top_Punch_Diagram.jpg

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

I am going to have to take pictures for you.. Let me try to explain better here. At first I was trying to make regular round nose ogive bullets like the ones in your diagrams. Because the 22lr has a rebated base. The base outside diameter is narrowed because the bullet of a 22lr is the same diameter as the case, so the part of the bullet that goes into the case has to have a bit smaller diameter. I tried to make a die set up similar to what you are showing. I made it a little differently though. I made a die holder and two dies of the same diameter with the holder holding them in place. I had problems because I couldn't get them to be perfectly concentric. I had a die for the nose and a die for the main body and rebate. I used a punch to form the hollow base. Because I do not have a lathe (and these suckers have to be PERFECT to be concentric. I had headaches getting them to be concentric. So when I went to powder coating, I did not have to make such a long ogive as the powder coat is slick and large bearing surfaces are a good thing.
174380174384174386174387174390174391
Pic 1, is die inside of die holder Pic 2, The way I make them now, with a top punch on one end and hollow base punch on the other. Pic 3, left to right is base punch, die holder, die, bullet and top punch. Pic 4 the same. Pic 5 and 6, is the same die, part of an old nose die (recently ground down to repurpose it) on Pic 6 you can see what is left of the nose die. Pic 5 is the other side of the same die with a 1/8" hole in it to push the bullet out.
The reason I don't think that forced air will push the bullet out is from experience working on cars and tires. Just doesn't seem strong enough, I could be wrong. Another thing, when you drill a small hole in the die, you will have your lead bleed into that hole. Making little nipples on your slugs. There is another thread somewhere here where they were discussing swaging the points with pictures of "bleeder holes" in nose dies. Good luck. Just keep experimenting. Don't stop any projects or ideas because of what others may suggest. That is what I found to be a trap here on forums. A lot of times people are well meaninged but end up making suggestions that will either discourage you or change your approach. That has cost me a few times. Try the compressed air method. Let me know how it works. Another thing that I have stumbled on is hydraulic pressure. I learned to resize 22lr cases by putting them in a sizing die then filling them with water and taking a punch that fits the inside of the case very well and hitting it with a hammer. It even got the firing pin dent out if I hit it hard enough. hah. Not really practical to use but something to remember. I saw a video of a guy that uses a grease fitting on the end of a gun barrel to force stuck bullets out with a grease gun. Water works too, just not as viscous. Tired of typing ....again good luck.




Traffer - Why did you abandon the "top punch" ?

I was going to do that, but wondered 'what is to keep the top punch from
squishing out ?' I don't mind a small flat top to the bullet - like it comes out
of the casting mold now. See the photos in the first post.

I have never swaged anything, so I don't know what to expect.
High pressure can do a lot of strange things.....

Why don't you think Compressed air (50 - 80 psi) will work ?
Have YOU tried it ? Is the bullet jammed that tightly in the die ?

I don't know how to make a top punch with a concave shape to give
the bullet a rounded tip form - which is what I wanted to do.
https://s19.postimg.org/z0d13uin7/Top_Punch_Diagram.jpg

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

Oh, you can buy top punches in all sizes for about $15. or just stick a piece of drill rod in a drill and start grinding a cup in the end with a small diamond burr in a dremel or die grinder. I use diamond tools in a dremel for just about all my machining work. You can get em cheap on eBay. If you want I will pick out the exact ones for you and post links for you.
I have about a hundred of them. Probably paid less than $80 for the whole mess of them.
I abandoned the very small punch to drive the bullet out because it just drives into the bullet like a nail into wood. I found that you need at least half the diameter or preferablly bigger so you don't just go into the bullet. Even a large punch will affect the bullet. But with a base punch it doesn't matter as it just makes the hollow base a tiny bit deeper. On the other end the top punch will also have a little "bleed by" it is the same as you show on your bases that you have to trim.

[DoctorBill]

Most interesting information !

Yes, I know what you mean about the naysayers and idea squashers.

You find that everywhere in large numbers.

People who have made big progress just didn't know that what they were
trying to do was impossible ! If I don't succeed, you will all see it happening.
If I do succeed, the naysayers will remain silent.

As to hydraulics, I was considering that. Air acts as a liquid. It may compress,
but it never the less acts hydraulically. Besides - I like to mess about.

If the Bullet gets jammed in the die, I can always heat it up and melt it out.
I do have some "Cerrosafe" and could use that until I can figure out how
to do this. Melts in boiling water !

I am 73 and semi-retired. That means if I don't have something to do, I go
nuts ! I need this bullet swage like I need another critic. But it is FUN !

As to bleed thru, I am hoping to control the pressure so that I just begin to shape
the bullet (round out the tip and make any voids fill in). I have to do this and
learn - then modify and try again. Re-invent the wheel as it were. That's the fun !

I do go slowly. Two days thinking one hour working. Make drawings and try
to understand what will happen.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

To those who have 'swaged' bullets - does it help to lubricate the Die ?
I was thinking of "Imperial Sizing Die Wax" - about THE slipperiest stuff imaginable !

Maybe "Loctite" Anti-Seize compound - that silvery stuff.

ALSO - new idea - Make a Screw Bolt Press - squeeze the Ram down using a 1/2" bolt
where one could very closely control the ram travel, yet exert tremendous force with
a big ratchet wrench ! That would control the amount of Lead "Bleed Thru"....

https://s19.postimg.org/ddpaepm8z/Screw_Press_Frame.jpg

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

I saw a homemade rig something like that with that old style torque wrench with the arm and pointer on a scale by the handle. That way a person can get the pressure down pretty well.

[DoctorBill]

I just now drilled a 1/16th inch hole from the bottom up to the Bullet Cavity.

Awaiting the 7/16" Drill Rod tomorrow from ENCO via UPS.

I think I will try a light tap-tap with a Ball Peen Hammer first just to see how
difficult it is to get the pressed bullet back out...

Impatient. Never liked waiting around.

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

I am really not the one to be giving you advise on this. I can share my experiences but I am a rank amateur with crappy tools. I WISH I could make dies as good as you. I have no lathe. I have to make everything with a drill press and dremel or die grinder. I have successfully made a bullet die cutter from a drill bit. I sharpened it to a curved tip that cuts the ogive in the die. I have seen "d" bits made on youtube and probably could make one of those also. They are nice for making molds. I have yet to make a mold either but am confident that I can. Here is a link to a page of links to swaging and tools.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?152893-Links-to-old-swaging-articles
If you check out the pictures especially in the "Bench Report" articles you will see professionally made swaging dies that are designed just like yours. On one it shows a very small hole that is used to punch the bullet out. The hole looks to be less than 1/8" in diameter. So that should help solve your problem of getting them out. I tried to make dies similar to yours but with the "holder" that I spoke of earlier. But I could not get everything centered perfectly without a lathe.
I went to the range today and fired about 40 of my powder coated 22lr. The accuracy was very disappointing. Now I need to redesign the bullet to a normal ogive bullet instead of a semi-wad cutter. And I have to figure out how to get uniform crimps. The collet crimper that I made crimps according to the amount of pressure used. More pressure=deeper crimp. Hence I have been getting varying crimp depths on my 22lr reloads. Can't expect any accuracy like that. My system needs more work in just about every aspect. sigh.
Another thread about swage bleed holes:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?312772-Core-swage-die-bleed-hole

[Bent Ramrod]

Dr. Bill,

If you could find a large, heavy cast iron wheel to fit to the top of the press you picture, you would have an old-fashioned " screw press," which would certainly have the power for swaging. The centrifugal force of the heavy spinning rim plus the multlication power of the screw threads makes for enormous downward force. You can see one in operation in the Hinge Factory scene in the movie Schindler's List.

[DoctorBill]

Traffer probably knows about these, but some others here may not....

You can buy "End Mills" for Milling Machines that are round nosed called
"Ball End Mills" - of various diameters.

Here is a Google Images Link showing endless types.
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1144&bih=480&q=Things&oq=Things&gs_l=img.3..0l10.418170.420044.0.421025.6.6.0.0.0. 0.270.638.5j0j1.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.6.618.O HFtg0Ki40c#tbs=isz:l%2Cimgo:1%2Cic:color&tbm=isch&q=ball+end+mills

https://s19.postimg.org/txiu6l337/Ball_End_Mills_B.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/8cdriz6cj/Ball_End_Mills_A.jpg

ENCO http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=136&PMCTLG=00

and Grizzly, http://www.grizzly.com/search?q=%28Ball%2BEnd%2BMill%29&rankBy=price+asc&page=3
to name only two, sell them - for under $20 each - some as low as $6 !

You could use them in a drill press if you don't have a Lathe or Milling machine
and get PERFECT cavities for ROUND NOSED BULLETS.

I am posting this for those who don't know such things.

My machinist friend (who taught me a few things) told me about them when I
asked him about grinding a Drill Bit to a round shape - "Don't do that !"

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

This is what I use. They work great for grinding drill bit shafts into top punches.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6pcs-Diamond-Coated-4mm-Round-Ball-Shape-Grinding-Burrs-Bur-Bits-Rotary-Tool-/391496955225?hash=item5b27097559:g:BeIAAOSwd0BVxEb u
I tried tungsten carbide ball end mills but they are woefully inadequate for even hardened steel. They just spin and burn on HSS.




Traffer probably knows about these, but some others here may not....

You can buy "End Mills" for Milling Machines that are round nosed called
"Ball End Mills" - of various diameters.

Here is a Google Images Link showing endless types.
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1144&bih=480&q=Things&oq=Things&gs_l=img.3..0l10.418170.420044.0.421025.6.6.0.0.0. 0.270.638.5j0j1.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.6.618.O HFtg0Ki40c#tbs=isz:l%2Cimgo:1%2Cic:color&tbm=isch&q=ball+end+mills

ENCO http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=136&PMCTLG=00

and Grizzly http://www.grizzly.com/search?q=%28Ball%2BEnd%2BMill%29&rankBy=price+asc&page=3
I also use these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/20pcs-RUBBER-Rotary-Tools-Polishing-Burr-Fits-DREMEL-6mm-Bullet-3mm-1-8-Shank/231432577974

to name only two sell them - for under $20 each.

You could use them in a drill press if you don't have a Lathe or Milling machine
and get PERFECT cavities for ROUND NOSED BULLETS.

I am posting this for those who don't know such things.

My machinist friend (who taught me a few things) told me about them when I
asked him about grinding a Drill Bit to a round shape - "Don't do that !"

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

I also use these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PHYHOO-Jewelry-Tool-Rubber-Rotary-Tools-Polishing-Burr-Dremel-26pcs-Emery-Bit-/142051732242?hash=item2112f16b12:g:fLMAAOSwv9FXg8v p
And These:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Diamond-Cutting-Discs-Cut-off-Wheel-Set-For-Dremel-Rotary-Tool-US-STOCK-/322152230460?hash=item4b01c4ee3c:g:5u0AAOSwzJ5XYWM 7
And these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HTS-C2-111-4-4-Pc-5-32-Diamond-Chainsaw-Sharpening-Rotary-Bits-with-1-8-Shank-/142018084280?hash=item2110effdb8:g:ghQAAOSwnNBXVxU Z
And these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-10-13-100mm-HSS-Straight-Shank-Twist-Drill-Round-Carbide-Rod-LATHE-TOOL-/181965539258?var=&hash=item2a5dfdc7ba:m:m2ksFLxChMNc4I6MCtU-ZyA
I spin the rotary tools with one of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Decker-3-Speed-Rtx-Rotary-Tool-With-Case-RTX-B-/112095745221?hash=item1a196d54c5:g:77kAAOSw6n5XsSK ~
This rotary tool is better than Dremels costing twice as much

[Traffer]

Here are some pictures of Top Punches made from Drill bit HSS material:
174493174494174495
These were done with 3mm and 4mm round diamond burrs. I paid less than $3 for a dozen burrs and one burr can make about 4 or 5 top punches if you take it easy and use water to lube.

[Traffer]

Here is a link to top punch sizes to numbers. As I said you can buy them for under $15 per. They are not HSS and do not hold up as well as mine...not even close.
http://www.castpics.net/subsite/TopPunches/Lee.html

[DoctorBill]

"Here are some pictures of Top Punches made from Drill bit HSS material:
Attachment 174493Attachment 174494Attachment 174495"

The above attachments for your post #34 does not work.

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please
notify the administrator"

Traffer - JUST ORDERED 3 sets of the Diamond coated Balls that you gave
the link to. Is sent FROM CHINA !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

My 7/16" Drill Rod arrived. I cut off a piece and lightly tapped one of
the Cast Bullets into the die. The end flattened like downtown.
The Bullet Metal shaped exactly to the Drill Rod Ram's end shape.
The Bullet Metal is like a soft putty at that pressure.

But you were right - compressed air did squat removing it !

Been trying steel rods of 1/16" the 3/16" (after drilling thru the
bottom hole) and the Bullet won't budge. One rod (Flattened Nail
End) went right thru the bullet w/o moving it.

So much for the swaged bullets exiting easily !

I'll have to heat the die up enough to melt out the bullet
and try a Top Punch appropriately shaped as you did with
grinding out a cavity in the Drill Rod.
I might try screwing a wood screw in the punched out nail
hole - see if I can PULL it out ! .......nope !

Essentially the die will be just a cylinder to hold the bullet
between the top and bottom Ram's.

I believe my cylinder (Bullet Cavity) walls are too rough and
scored by the D-Bit to let loose of the swaged bullet.

One has to learn. Onward.

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

174521174522
Maybe I had loaded too many pictures on that post. Oh well here are a couple of pictures of HSS drill bits that I made into top punches.

[Traffer]

Polishing makes the difference. Polish them mirror bright and use that lube you talked about. I use Lee Resizing Lube. Did you look at any of those articles in the links I posted? There is a lot of info in there. I believe Corbin uses a 3/32" hole to poke the bullet out of the die. Again polish and lube.


My 7/16" Drill Rod arrived. I cut off a piece and lightly tapped one of
the Cast Bullets into the die. The end flattened like downtown.
The Bullet Metal shaped exactly to the Drill Rod Ram's end shape.
The Bullet Metal is like a soft putty at that pressure.

But you were right - compressed air did squat removing it !

Been trying steel rods of 1/16" the 3/16" (after drilling thru the
bottom hole) and the Bullet won't budge. One rod (Flattened Nail
End) went right thru the bullet w/o moving it.

So much for the swaged bullets exiting easily !

I'll have to heat the die up enough to melt out the bullet
and try a Top Punch appropriately shaped as you did with
grinding out a cavity in the Drill Rod.
I might try screwing a wood screw in the punched out nail
hole - see if I can PULL it out ! .......nope !

Essentially the die will be just a cylinder to hold the bullet
between the top and bottom Ram's.

I believe my cylinder (Bullet Cavity) walls are too rough and
scored by the D-Bit to let loose of the swaged bullet.

One has to learn. Onward.

DoctorBill

[Traffer]

I just tested my new die. It is 2 piece and I got the pieces aligned this time. Also polished them very well. Made the 3/32" hole in the nose to poke out the bullet. WOW, taps right out. Almost without any effort. So that is the key. Polish to a mirror shine. I am very encouraged.

[kokomokid]

I have been using a 11/32 (.343) long drill bushing that is slick and hard to size down .358 bullets for paper patch. Lee size lube and pushed thru with .343 gage pin on an old arbor press. With both ends open I can push out from the bottom but have no way to reform the nose.Very interesting thread for those who like to tinker.
I turn the rear half of the donor bullets to .346 +/- on a collet in my lathe before sizing Patch bullets to .350 with 25% cotton 9# paper

[DoctorBill]

I had to heat up the Bottom Half of the Die to melt out the WW Lead
Bullet - wouldn't come out as the Die is made so far.

https://s19.postimg.org/hxbohzt9f/Drilling_Bottom_Half_Out.jpg

The Die turned a nice Blue Color.
Here I am about to drill it thru with a 7/16 Drill.

Notice the 'registration' line and the marked Lathe Jaw.
That tends to keep the center in the same place....(?)

I will make a Top Punch (RAM) in the bullet shape and try again.

The "Bottom Half" will probably become the "Top Half" of
the Die. I may actually only need the top half to swage.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I am now onto the Top Punch Concave shaping.

Pre-Drilling out most of the metal on my Lathe with 'Center Drills'
to make shaping the concave surface less work.

Here is the beginning - about 0.3 inch in.
https://s19.postimg.org/xgdpsuqxv/Pre_Drilling_Top_Punch_B.jpg

I will use various sized Drills to remove more metal before taking the Round
Diamond Bits to shaping the curve.

Going For This Nose shape:

................https://s19.postimg.org/ag72git43/Ultimate_Nose_Shape_Desired.jpg

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

I hope this idea works !

I have started Drilling out the Cavity in the Top Punch with various
Drills. My intention is to then finish the cavity's shape using the Diamond
Coated Bits (Burrs) which are coming soon.

Most of the metal was removed with Drill Bits. How much and Where you ask ?

I printed out a silhouette of my D-Bit Shape and using measurements taken
directly off the Bit itself and using Proportions math, I fingered out which bit
to use at a particular depth.

https://s19.postimg.org/7tw5dbrab/Step_Drilling_Plan.jpg

and drilled the Drill Rod end out as shown. THAT removed the bulk of
the metal to make the cavity.....now for the high-speed diamond bits....

https://s19.postimg.org/djcdxmxgj/Step_Drilled_rod_End.jpg

Sorry - this photo above is none too good - using a small CANON PowerShot
A510 Digital Camera and a Jewelry Loupe over the lens.

I may just swage with THAT to see what I get until the Diamond Burrs arrive.

THIS is FUN !

DoctorBill

PS - If I knew my Butt from a Hole In The Ground, I could probably shape
the inner cavity with my Lathe and some small boring bits...but I don't...

I COULD make a Round Nosed cavity with a Ball End Mill Bit....but that is
not what I want.

Ignorance is expensive.

[kokomokid]

How thin can you make the lip of the cavity? Old hammer swage dies were very thick if I remember correctly.

[Traffer]

Yes the thinness of the top punch sides may well be an issue. I have tried to make the longer ogive with a top punch but as you do that the walls of the punch get thin and they haven't worked well for me. That's why I ended up making semi wad-cutters. Are you cutting the HSS drill bits with a lathe?

[Traffer]

What I had happen with a long ogive top punch was the punch would go round almost all of the bullet and then when pressure was put on the punch the thin walls would expand to the inside of the die getting the punch stuck. I would love to see you succeed. (taht is before I had everything polished well) I have gone back to the nose die because my semi wadcutters were not consistent in accuracy. I polished it really well with diamond impregnated rubber polishing burrs for the dremel. These are what I got, they come in different sizes. You can reshape them easily by using another dremel with a diamond wheel. I just shaped mine to the exact profile of the nose die and carefully polished it with it. They get deformed and torn up easliy so you have to be careful with them. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pcs-6mm-Bullet-RUBBER-rotary-tools-polishing-burr-for-DREMEL-2-B-8-/141922314787?hash=item210b3aaa23:g:ukIAAOSwxp9W5l-v
But they do work.
My nose die worked very well after I polished it. I cut the 3/32" poke out removal hole in it and they poke out easily too. I still have to fine tune the rebate end of the second die in order to make those rebated 22lr.
I sent you a private message. Did you get it?

[Traffer]

If I had a lathe, I would put a die grinder on the tail stock. I am pretty sure that is done, isn't it? Then you could run those diamond burrs with precision.

[Traffer]

It is a great picture. I learned that jewelers loupe over the lens a while back when I had to take a picture of a cracked computer chip that could not be seen with the naked eye. I have since bought a cheap loupe with a snap on bezel. I cut it off below the bezel and glued it to my camera. Now I can snap off and on the 10x magnification. I have a really bad camera though. I bought it used and it eats batteries among other faults. I sometimes go through a pair of AA batteries in less than 10 pictures. I want to get a new used one but I am afraid that I would end up with the same problem.

[DoctorBill]

Yes, TRAFFER, I got your message.

Thanks for your offer, but I will wait - I am not in any great hurry and I
really need to slow down - I need to think this out and read all the advice
from this forum.

As to Cameras - every Friday, my wife and I go around to "Garage Sales" and
"Thrift Stores" here in Spokane, WA. I have found a LOT of Digital Cameras !

https://s19.postimg.org/bzlr77r37/Garage_Sale_Cameras.jpg

The above all work fine PLUS the CANON PowerShot A510 that took the above
picture (3.2 Mpixel). I make sure they only use AA sized batteries (not corroded
in the camera) AND use the normal small Memory Chips. Take 4 AA batteries
with you so that you can see if it works - else only pay a couple of bucks !

DO NOT BUY any used Digital Cameras that use SPECIAL rechargeable Batteries !
You may have to buy a USB Cable to fit them....$6.

The Manuals for all of these are in pdf format on the Internet !

I even just hold a hand held Magnifying lens in front of the Camera Lens !
All the "Automatic Focusing" stuff is a PTA, though.

I use Graphic Workshop Professional ($40 from Canada) and Photoshop
Light to reduce the pictures down to what you see here. 3 MP cameras
are quite fine for Forum Photos - then reduced 40 - 50% and edited.
http://www.mindworkshop.com/gwspro.html

What used to cost hundreds of dollars is now for sale for a few bucks !
Thousand dollar SLR film cameras are under $10 ! Times have changed !

As to the Die - I am thinking that I bit off more than my knowledge
allows for. Typical for me !

DoctorBill

PS - My PhotoShop "Light" is an old outdated program that works only
in Windows XP. But it WORKS !

[Traffer]

Very nice. I bought my Pentax Optio E10, 6 megapixel off eBay about 10 years ago. Back then I paid around $30 used which I thought was a bargain, until I found out about the batteries. Another problem is focus. The focus (especially without the loupe) doesn't work right. You have to literally find the focus spot by moving closer or farther away, then take the picture. Major pain. Oh well thanks for the tips. Happy swaging

[DoctorBill]

What you are doing is correct.
Push the button half-way down and let the camera focus, THEN
move in an out until the focus is good and push the button the
rest of the way down.
Try working the Zoom - then do the above.
LOTS of light gives you better depth of Focus (closes down the aperture)
I need a close-up headband to see the screen
well enough to focus ! For close-up work at the bench - Harbor Freight.

My camera - Canon PowerShot A510 - is supposed to have an
"Auto-Focus Off", but I can't get it to work.
Too complicated for my simple 73 year old mind.....

Buy a set of 4 AA or more rechargeable Batteries (many chargers are for
sale in Thrift Stores and Garage Sales CHEAP) and
just switch them out when they get low - saves a BUTT LOAD of $$.

Listen to me - I save a lot of money by being CHEAP. Make pennies squeak !.

BTW - most cameras act like a detachable Hard Drive when connected to
a computer. Just go in and move the picture files to where you want them.

I download the Camera Company's software for interfacing with the Computer.
Direct link - If they will let you download them.

Just keep an eye peeled for used Digital Camera's - most people just want
to get rid of them, so bargain them down ! Whatever the price, offer half !

Those older Digital Cameras are around in the Millions - like Flies !

REMEMBER - Do Not buy any with special proprietary, rechargeable battery "packs" !
If they do have one - THAT is why they are on "Sale" !
The replacement could cost $40 or more !
Replacements may not even be available anymore !
Many will have Memory Cards in them worth much more than they
are asking for the Camera !
Older models may use old low capacity memory cards or out of date cards.
But if you pay $5 for a used Digital Camera, you won't die if you can't find
a Memory Card for it.
Just make sure the Camera does not have corroded Batteries in it !
That stuff can destroy the innards....

DoctorBill

[plus1hdcp]

Very interesting thread to follow. Would like to hear a bit about your polishing techniques for my own learning.

[Traffer]

I use basically two different techniques for polishing the dies/punches that I make. First of all I make everything by spinning it in a drill or drill press. Obviously while spinning a piece of steel in a drill press or lathe, polishing can be done simply by holding a piece of very fine sandpaper or the like on the metal. I have and use sandpaper from 220 grit to 1200 grit. Usually 500 grit is pretty sufficient for this purpose. I also use dremel or die grinder or whatever you want to call them with diamond impregnated rubber bits. They come in various shapes and wheels. I have a bunch of wheels that are color coded as to the fineness of the diamond grit. They go light grey for the finest. then red, next is green, then dark grey for the coarsest. They work much faster than holding sandpaper on the work. I have bullet shaped ones that work well for the insides of punches and even dies, but you have to be very careful on dies because you can make different sized diameters in your work if you are not careful. I will try to find a link or some pictures to show you some examples of theses things. I even use the wheels to final sharpen drill bits to a very nice edge. (I sharpen all my drill bits with diamond cut off wheels on a dremel, quick and easy once you get the hang of it)
Here are some pictures. The first two are the diamond impregnated rubber ones. The last picture is a variety pack of diamond cut off wheels. Note not all diamond cut off wheels are of the same quality. I found this pack to be outstanding. They were far more expensive than most others. A little over $5 for 10 pcs. All from eBay. 174646174647174648


Very interesting thread to follow. Would like to hear a bit about your polishing techniques for my own learning.

[plus1hdcp]

Thanks Traffer, the uses of a Dremel tool never cease to amaze me. I like that you use the Dremel to sharpen drill blades. I use a belt sander. You have to make use of what is available.

[Traffer]

I have always liked to sharpen things... "study that angle..." I use a dremel to sharpen drill bits smaller than .5mm. Use a 10x jewelers loupe to do it. Quite a challenge.

[DoctorBill]

Buy a variation of one of these. I have two of them. My wife has one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Headband-2-LED-Lamp-Light-Jeweler-Head-Magnifier-Magnifying-Glass-Loupe-5-Lens-/331943594486?hash=item4d496149f6:g:pdkAAOSw65FXtCV w

https://s19.postimg.org/qhjeykzc3/CP_604_hires.jpg

They are worth every bit you pay for them ! Everyone sells a variation of them.

E-Bay, Amazon, Craft Stores, Harbor Freight, Hardware Stores, WalMart,
Jocko's Mercantile and Energy Weapons Store....

Also buy some eye loupes from Harbor Freight. Cheap. You WILL use them !

BTW - You ALL know that you can hold an Eye Loupe in front of your Cell Phone
camera and take extreme close-up photographs ! Everyone knows THAT !

and https://www.amazon.com/Aduro-Magnetic-Detachable-Samsung-Experia/dp/B00LLLATRQ


DoctorBill

[Traffer]

Buy a variation of one of these. I have two of them. My wife has one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Headband-2-LED-Lamp-Light-Jeweler-Head-Magnifier-Magnifying-Glass-Loupe-5-Lens-/331943594486?hash=item4d496149f6:g:pdkAAOSw65FXtCV w

https://s19.postimg.org/qhjeykzc3/CP_604_hires.jpg

They are worth every bit you pay for them ! Everyone sells a variation of them.

E-Bay, Amazon, Craft Stores, Harbor Freight, Hardware Stores, WalMart,
Jocko's Mercantile and Energy Weapons Store....

Also buy some eye loupes from Harbor Freight. Cheap. You WILL use them !

BTW - You ALL know that you can hold an Eye Loupe in front of your Cell Phone
camera and take extreme close-up photographs ! Everyone knows THAT !

and https://www.amazon.com/Aduro-Magnetic-Detachable-Samsung-Experia/dp/B00LLLATRQ


DoctorBill
Anyone who does not use magnification for fine work is in for a very pleasant surprise when getting some. I have glasses from Dollar Tree all over. I have a holder on my desk for 10 pairs with many different magnifications. I always wear a 1.75x at my desk and just add more and more glasses until I can see what I am doing. If I go past 3 pairs of glasses on at once, I switch to the 10x loupe. If that isn't enough I have a tiny 60x loupe/microscope.

[BigEyeBob]

You can make a top punch with cavity to match the bullet nose you want by making a d reamer with the shape you want ,just dont need to go as deep .Then polish with a wooden dowel and some carborundum paper .Make some laps from brass rod and use carborundum or diamond powder to polish the inside of your dies to size.
Also I use an air dies grinder with a piece of rod that fits the collet , I cut a slot down the rod with a hacksaw and roll carborundum paper onto the rod and use that to polish the inside of my dies. Just tear a strip of paper ,stick one end into the slot and roll it on
I don't do swaging as yet , but I make push through sizing dies for my rockchucker and I polish them in this way .
I have plans to build a swaging press using the drawings off this site.

[DoctorBill]

Sorry folks, but seems like all the air pressure leaked out of me
the last several weeks !
Been eating, sleeping and watching TV - and that is about all !

Egads ! I take a Butt Load of Meds for High Blood Pressure, Lipitor
for Cholesterol and they make me as useless as Hillary Clinton....

As Arnold said...."I'll be back !" Give me some time.

DoctorBill

PS - I am NOT an MD, so don't say, "Doctor - heal thyself !"
Just a PhD - Piled Higher and Deeper or Pretty Heavy Dude.
Whichever you like !

[DoctorBill]

Have not done squat with the swaging press.

Been vegitating, except for buying some .266 Hornady Carcano bullets
and reloading 12 with 31.6 gr of RL 15 - a Hornady load.

Want to see if that M38 Carcano Carbine I have will shoot straight with a
larger diameter bullet. It had been Key Holing with Cast lead Bullets.
I had a machinist I know recrown it - didn't help.

I have been told the Carcano will not shoot lead bullets for doodly squat.

Carcano's require .266 instead of .264 to work properly. (Hornady).

DoctorBill

[gitano]

Before you get discouraged, have a look at this http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12385&highlight=swaging. Read the the first post then skip to the last one. Your biggest challenge should be getting the exact profile you want.


Paul

[Traffer]

Thanks for that link Gitano. I make my own swaging dies (for 22lr) with a drill press and dremels. Indeed the modern myth is that they are so incredibly precise that only God and a couple of his special people can make them. They are just dies. Patients and precision is what is needed to make them. (or a willingness to do the job over and over and over until one gets it right. Which is the case for me.) I have learned so much...like how to grind a drill bit into a bullet die cutting bit. Drill bits are marvelous things once you learn to modify them.


Before you get discouraged, have a look at this http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12385&highlight=swaging. Read the the first post then skip to the last one. Your biggest challenge should be getting the exact profile you want.


Paul

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Really way out idea - Can one make a bullet that whistles loudly in flight ?

One can hardly avoid its making a noise, to some extent, but it is quite hard to keep it as a whistle. The human auditory range is from about 50 to 20,000 vibrations per second. The least irregularity or imbalance in the bullet, accidental or deliberate, can do it, but if a .30-06 bullet at 2700 ft./sec. from a ten inch twist barrel, for example, has a slight irregularity, it will throw out an air vibration at a frequency of 3240 hertz. We will hear that, but as a sound much lower than a whistle.Other things being equal, it will probably be a medium-low drone.

Where things aren't equal is when the pitch of the sound is altered by the Doppler shift, just like a car approaching, passing you and receding into the distance. Imagine machine-gun bullets fired from an aircraft. Those fired to the rear will be more widely spaced out than the equivalent on the ground, as the firing-point moves away, and those fired forwards will become closer together. The shooter will hear a long rumble floating back to him, if the range is long enough to notice, and the quarry or target marker will hear a sharp crack. The difference becomes more marked as bullets have higher velocity. But the approaching sound, doesn't get any sharper over the speed of sound.

Here is something of Kipling's on the subject.


The Instructor



At times when under cover I 'ave said,
To keep my spirits up an' raise a laugh,
'Earin 'im pass so busy over-'ead -
Old Nickel-Neck, 'oo isn't on the Staff -
"There's one above is greater than us all"

Before 'im I 'ave seen my Colonel fall,
An 'watched 'im write my Captain's epitaph,
So that a long way off it could be read -
He 'as the knack o' makin' men feel small
- Old Whistle Tip, 'oo isn't on the Staff.

There is no sense in fleein' (I 'ave fled),
Better go on an' do the belly-crawl,
An' 'ope' 'e'1l 'it some other man instead
Of you 'e seems to 'unt so speshual -
Fitzy van Spitz, 'oo isn't on the Staff.

An' thus in mem'ry's biograph,
Now that the show is over, I recall
The peevish voice an' 'oary mushroom 'ead
Of 'im we owned was greater than us all,
'Oo give instruction to the quick an' the dead -
The Shudderin' Beggar - not upon the Staff!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Have not done squat with the swaging press.

Been vegitating, except for buying some .266 Hornady Carcano bullets
and reloading 12 with 31.6 gr of RL 15 - a Hornady load.

Want to see if that M38 Carcano Carbine I have will shoot straight with a
larger diameter bullet. It had been Key Holing with Cast lead Bullets.
I had a machinist I know recrown it - didn't help.

I have been told the Carcano will not shoot lead bullets for doodly squat.

Carcano's require .266 instead of .264 to work properly. (Hornady).

DoctorBill

The Carcano has a gain twist barrel, which is an advantage but not a great advantage if it is well executed. Some, particularly those made by Beretta, were. But it isn't impossible that some were badly made in late wartime conditions.

Some were cut down from rifle length to police carbines, which meant losing the part of the rifling that was fast enough for the bullet. It may not have been a big problem in their intended function, as the Italians did have light-bullet guard loads, aimed at avoiding overpenetration and letting a miscreant make it to hospital. It is also possible that a sporterized Carcano may have received the same treatment.

[plus1hdcp]

Before you get discouraged, have a look at this http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12385&highlight=swaging. Read the the first post then skip to the last one. Your biggest challenge should be getting the exact profile you want.

Paul

Outstanding writeup and description Paul

[gitano]

Thanks, plus1hdcp. It wasn't my intent in that thread to "usurp" anyone's 'authority' or to suggest that the dies than one can get, (from the few places we can get dies), are anything other than excellent. It's rather that I just hate to see people discouraged from doing ANYTHING because "experts" tell them they can't. Too many times in my life I listened to "experts" and didn't do something that I wanted to do because I was told either that it "couldn't be done", or it "required too much skill", or it "requires special equipment", etc. Too, too many times those experts were wrong. Flat out. In fact, these days, if an "expert" tells me I can't do something, it pretty much assures me that I CAN!

In the past 10 years or so, I have lost 3 dear friends to cancer. Once the cancer was finally diagnosed, EVERY SINGLE expert (doctor) told EACH of them that they only had "6 months, at MOST" to live. All of them lived AT LEAST 3 more years. In my experience, if you get diagnosed with terminal cancer, the BEST possible thing the doctor can say is "you've got six months to live, at best". You can plan on AT LEAST three more years.

Getting off that particular hobby horse... I just don't want people to be discouraged from TRYING the things they want to do. Failure is better than not trying at all! Or, as The Great One (Wayne Gretzky) said, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

Paul

[DoctorBill]

Sorry gentlemen, but I have not come back to this swaging die project
because I bought a .44 cal Pietta Cap 7 Ball revolver. Been messing about
with THAT.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?317116-44-Cal-Cap-amp-Ball-Pistol-%28Pietta%29-What-cast-bullet-do-I-use&

Not sure swaging is worth all the effort to me at this point.

DoctorBill

[gitano]

I read back through all of the posts and noticed two points that I think need to be addressed.

1) LUBE THE DIE! Wish I had seen that before you tried your first swaging. Did I mention LUBE THE DIE? (Actually, lube the bullet you are swaging.)

2) The primary reason why the pneumatic ejection doesn't work is PSI - with emphasis on "inch". Let's say you are using a pneumatic port diameter of 1/16th of an inch (0.0625"). In SQUARE inches, that represents a cross-sectional area of 0.00307 SQUARE inches. If I remember correctly, you said you pneumatically loaded the system to 80psi. Multiplying 80 POUNDS per square inch, times 0.00307 square INCHES, we get 0.245 POUNDS of pressure on the bullet. That's a QUARTER of a pound of "oomph"! Essentially, that's "nothing".

People don't think about this in the context of "bolt thrust". A cartridge that produces 50,000 psi of chamber pressure DOES not put 50,000 POUNDS of thrust on the bolt face UNLESS the base of the cartridge case equals 1 SQUARE inch or more. I don't think even a .50 BMG has a head diameter of 1 square inch.

Looks to me like you are doing great!

Paul

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Geitano is entirely right, but there are ways round this if the bullet is swaged in a cylindrical die with full-diameter punches for both front and rear. I think in this situation the best way of extraction is to drive the bullet out with one of those punches. But if you really want to use compressed air, raising the nose punch a small fraction of an inch would admit it to the full bullet diameter.

Corbin say that you can only form the full ogive by swaging if the punch for it has a rim to leave a considerable step down from bearing surface to ogive. But their standards include commercial operators who require enough hardness to swage many thousands of bullets, sometimes at high speed. The amateur who wants only a few hundred for his own use could probably temper the punch for greater toughness, with a narrower step. But not, I think, no step at all.

The trouble with making the ogive part of the die itself, is that a small diameter ejection punch may be driven into the nose of a cast bullet, and a large one will impose a meplat of the size people often abandon casting to avoid. One possibility is to have the punch, say, ¼in. in diameter for the half-inch or so nearest the bullet, then narrowing down after that, and precisely located by the end of the ¼in. part of the hole. Then you could use your cutter to turn it into part of the contoured cavity.

[gitano]

I'm not arguing, Ballistics in Scotland, because I agree with all you wrote, but... In fact, the pointing die I got from Corbin is for an 8mm bullet with an 8s ogive. It has a 0.091 ejection punch which works just fine (meaning that it doesn't "poke a hole" or otherwise deform the nose), as long as the bullets are properly lubed. With 'dead soft' lead and poor lubing, the ejection pin does indeed poke into the nose of the bullet unless it is a 'closed HP', in which the pin pushes against the jacket and does not harm the point/meplat. The same holds true in my home-made pointing dies for my .510 caliber bullets. In those bullets, I don't really care about a little 'dimple' in the nose. Since Doctor Bill is swaging un-jacketed bullets of wheel weight alloy, it is likely that the bullet's noses will get deformed to one degree or another by the ejection pin if he does not lube properly OR employ the methods you mention - or both.

Paul

[Traffer]

I have made several dies for 22lr. I have found that the 3/32" "poke out" punch ( very near the size that Corbin uses) works fine, IF the die is polished to a good shine AND it is lubed. Then no problem at all. A very slight tap will dislodge the bullet. I think the reason for the step down on the ogive may be because the full ogive in the die will eventually expand the die at the beginning of the ogive causing the die to be slightly larger in the tip making the bullet much harder to get out. But that is just a guess.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm not arguing, Ballistics in Scotland, because I agree with all you wrote, but... In fact, the pointing die I got from Corbin is for an 8mm bullet with an 8s ogive. It has a 0.091 ejection punch which works just fine (meaning that it doesn't "poke a hole" or otherwise deform the nose), as long as the bullets are properly lubed. With 'dead soft' lead and poor lubing, the ejection pin does indeed poke into the nose of the bullet unless it is a 'closed HP', in which the pin pushes against the jacket and does not harm the point/meplat. The same holds true in my home-made pointing dies for my .510 caliber bullets. In those bullets, I don't really care about a little 'dimple' in the nose. Since Doctor Bill is swaging un-jacketed bullets of wheel weight alloy, it is likely that the bullet's noses will get deformed to one degree or another by the ejection pin if he does not lube properly OR employ the methods you mention - or both.<br>
<br>
Paul

Yes, lubrication is very important. Dr. Bill mentioned sizing wax early on, and it would work for undemanding swaging, as would the STP oil treatment, just about identical to most die makers' liquid lube, which I still use. But people like Corbin have special swaging lubes which are intended to avoid "dieseling" under much higher pressure. That isn't as dangerous as it may sound, but it stops them lubricating. I believe most of them are a mixture of anhydrous lanolin and castor oil, but any kind of lanolin prepared as a skin treatment may include volatile solvents, which precisely restore the problem.

The best way of making the end of the ejector pin concave would be to hold the cutter immobile in the cavity it has just made, and use the ejector pin like a rotating drill. For making D-section reamers pin gauges are useful. You can buy them in a wide range of sizes, mostly metric, on eBay, either in very hard steel or in carbide.

I have dies for my ancient SAW swaging press which do a very satisfactory job with .22 bullets from rimfire jackets. There is no point forming die, and a rather smaller ejector punch than mentioned, which might well give trouble with lead, but it works fine when it rests on a closed brass tip, which is harder than copper, but thinner. I haven't recovered one from game, but it does appear to expand just as well as a soft-point, and stands up well to 5.6x50R (or approximately .223) velocity.
Back on photography, I agree you don't need state of the art equipment. This picture was taken in 1998 with an early Philips digital camera which reached the dizzy heights of 360 kilopixels, but had the now exceptional property of focussing down to 1cm. It shows the primer of a corroded 5.56mm. case, one of fifteen, from what I think was a Resistance ambush site in Kuwait City. The little rounded-pyramid bump is where the primer was extruded into a tiny pit made by slamming shut on a hard sand grain, so that I could tell that M16, which fired about half the shots, from any other in the world.178687

My wife worked for a while as a computer helpline person for Nikon digital cameras, and gave me a Nikon 1V1 bought at a large staff discount, which is a sort of small and modest interchangeable-lens one, but small enough to use as an ordinary but not pocketable camera. In the interests of harmony I surreptitiously use my Sony DSC-S85, an expensive camera in its day, but now grossly obsolete.

The S85 uses Sony memory sticks and a special camera batteries, but they are available at around half Dr. Bill's worst possible case, and I have never had one die on me. It is only 4.1 megapixels, but has a very good Zeiss lens. Even better, I know exactly how to operate it quickly without fumbling. The lens mounting is threaded, and I bought a cheap adapter to use threaded closeup lenses, and to fit the portable copying stand I bought for my 35mm Pentax in 1975. The Glasgow city library won't let me upend the large volumes of 19th century patents on the photocopying machine, so the use of that thing is one of those small victories that keep us sane.

One important point is that like many old digital cameras, it won't communicate with a Windows 7 computer (the furthest from my hard-learned operating knowledge I care to go) with the mini-USB cable. But I can use the memory stick in an inexpensive card reader. In fact with the Nikon I do the same with the SD card slot most laptops have nowadays, because it is easier than finding the cable.

My favourite graphics program is Micrografx Picture Publisher, which is also obsolete, but works reasonably well in compatibility mode for Windows XP. It occasionally freezes up after a long session. It is no longer supported, since Corel bought the company and discontinued this worthy competitor with their own product. But it does about everything I could need, and again the big advantage is that I really know the program. Here is a totally fake case label I made for my 1926 Pieper shotgun, based on an old share certificate (What can't you buy on eBay?) and their 1911 catalogue.

178688

[Traffer]

On the camera info,
I use a Pentax Optio E10 which I bought used on eBay a long time ago for in the $20 range. It is 6 megapixls. It has some fair features like macro focus. I first tried using it with a 10x jewelers loupe. In 2008? or 9? I bought a video card on eBay that had a cracked silicon chip. It was very nearly not visible with the naked eye. I wanted to take a picture to send to the seller. It worked extremely well. I have been using that method of taking fine pictures of computer electronics since (I am a PC Tech) I recently bought another loupe from eBay/China. for less than $4. It had a bezel that unsnapped to free the single lens. So I cut off some of the main base of the loupe and glued it around the lens of the camera. Now I can snap on or off the lens. The camera however is faulty. The mini usb port is damaged and I too have to take the memory card out and stick into a chip reader to read it. It also has the problem of eating batteries BADLY. It is stored with the batteries out and still goes through 2 alkaline batteries every 10 to 20 photos. It is also a real hassle to focus. The auto focus works much better with the 10x lens on than it does off. Here are a couple of pics I took of it with an old video camera:
178702178703
I need to pick up a different cheap digital camera but I have read that many have the same problem of eating batteries. If the focus motor is stuck or bad they use inordinate amounts of energy.