12G OAL too long. Roll crimp advice?

[luke777]

Hello to all.

I live in Australia and I have just rolled my own batch of Tri-ball copies as per the specific instructions posted here by James from Dixie Slugs. What an awesome fellow he is.

Anyway, over here the closest thing to a pump or semi-auto shotgun we are allowed to have is a lever action. I just bought a new one which just became available and was so excited as, unlike my old 1886 copy, it is chambered for 3" shells so Tri-Ball are go!! Or so I thought....

OAL of the cartridges I have made is 2.76" give or take a few thousandths from shell to shell. Everything has been done EXACTLY as per James' instructions. 28.5G BlueDot and the shot column is tapped down very snug. Using Fiocchi 3" Hulls.

My problem is the gun won't cycle the rounds. They come out of the mag into the receiver but are too long and so the nose of the cartridge gets hung up in the mouth of the mag tube. Hence, the cartridge lifter can't get the nose of the round up to be fed into the chamber. It fouls by around 3-4mm ( around 1/8" I suppose).

Has anyone ever come across a similar issue in their pump guns and if so do you have any suggestions?

I use a roll crimper that I am pretty sure I bought from Precision reloading. The crimp is rounded. Is there a roll crimper that produces slightly shorter/flatter crimps? If I can get a whisker shorter OAL I reckon I will be in business. I have spent so much time, effort and money importing all the components to make these loads and I REALLY want to get stuck into some feral pigs in coming months with them.

Thanks in advance and keep up the good work all of you.

Luke

[TonyfromItaly]

Hello Luke, try this site. He make all kinds of spools for star and roll crimp with different profiles. However, even semiauto shotguns such as beretta or benelli have difficulties cycling 3" 76mm hulls roll crimped.

[victorfox]

I may be asking a pretty stupid question, but this shotgun cycles factory 3" loads? Maybe the action mechanism is like the original, and the maker just uses the same tooling setup for making all his barrels? :veryconfu

[bikerbeans]

Can you post a pic of a loaded round? You might be able to trim the hull a little before crimping and have a shorter OAL.

BB

[luke777]

Can you post a pic of a loaded round? You might be able to trim the hull a little before crimping and have a shorter OAL.

BB

I was wondering about this BB. I am relatively new to roll crimping. I assume you need a certain amount of hull past the shot column in order to get a good crimp. See what you think:

173667173668

[luke777]

Hello Luke, try this site. He make all kinds of spools for star and roll crimp with different profiles. However, even semiauto shotguns such as beretta or benelli have difficulties cycling 3" 76mm hulls roll crimped.

I apologise Tony but is there supposed to be a link in your post? I cant see one. Thank you.

[luke777]

Not sure I follow ya Victorfox... I'm a bit slow at times.:-P

[victorfox]

Not sure I follow ya Victorfox... I'm a bit slow at times.:-P

I might not have been clear enough. English is not my mother tongue and I sometimes get myself entangled and can't express what I mean.

I asked if you have a factory 3" shotshell and if it cycles in this gun, because maybe the gun maker used a 3" chambered barrel (using say a 3" reamer used in other models he makes), but the gun action is suited to 2 3/4". To my (limited) knowledge your guns was not originally made to shoot 3" shells, so if the action is a close reproduction the dimensions wouldn't let the shells cycle.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Several guns will have problems cycling roll crimped shells from the magazine, as they are longer than star crimped when loaded.

If the your crimper allows for it, and the internal stack is not too high, you can just add more crimp. This factory loaded Brenneke has a 67.5mm hull and the crimp height is about 10mm:

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag248/driftwood4/IMG_0430_zpszsoixngr.jpg (http://s1370.photobucket.com/user/driftwood4/media/IMG_0430_zpszsoixngr.jpg.html)

[bikerbeans]

Luke,

You might be able to shorten the hull a little and have a good crimp, but not sure you can get an 1/8 of an inch. Without changing components you will need to trim a 1/4" to shorten the OAL by 1/8".

BB

[cpileri]

I would favor trying to trim the hull first, as well. But if not, you might be able to eke out a tiny bit of shortening by changing the OS20 wad that you placed in the bottom of the TUPR orange wad (underneath all the balls) to something thinner or more compressible- like maybe a felt wad of the same thickness or else a cork/cardboard wad of half the thickness. This would be two things: 1. an untested load, although I would think the pressure difference would be minimal from a safety standpoint; but...2. with the thinner OScard, even w the petals slit al the way down, it might not release the bottom ball. Would need to experiment. Just ideas...

[luke777]

I might not have been clear enough. English is not my mother tongue and I sometimes get myself entangled and can't express what I mean.

I asked if you have a factory 3" shotshell and if it cycles in this gun, because maybe the gun maker used a 3" chambered barrel (using say a 3" reamer used in other models he makes), but the gun action is suited to 2 3/4". To my (limited) knowledge your guns was not originally made to shoot 3" shells, so if the action is a close reproduction the dimensions wouldn't let the shells cycle.

Now I get you. No this is a gun which cycles factory 3" shells easily. It is a completely new design to my old IAC (1886 Winchester copy).

[luke777]

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I may end up having to explore having a gunsmith see if they can sneak a few mm of potential out of the gun. A bit from here and a bit from there.... Fingers crossed.

[Smoke4320]

I would look at getting a wad that the payload bottom is 1/8" shorter. This will allow a deeper crimp

[elvas]

Another roll crimper will not make things better.
Unfortunately this is a problem with most guns (pumps and semi autos) that come from Italy also, because CIP does not specify maximum loaded shotshell length.
Maybe shortening the hull or fold crimping if at all possible?

[Cap'n Morgan]

You could try flattening the balls slightly to reduce the overall height. This will not improve the flight characteristic, but it would make for a more stable packing and the lower balls will no doubt compress anyway due to the forces involved at launch.

[RMc]

Luke777, Good to see you on line again!

I suspect you have moved up to an Addler 110 lever action shotgun. From all I've read and seen in video reviews these are great shotguns - particularly when slide and autoloading shotguns are legally out of the picture "Down Under."

For the stateside crowd here is a video review of the Adler 110:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZETC39Kf7AE

Since your TriBall cartridges are hanging on the top edge of the magazine tube there are a couple of things you can do to shed a bit of cartridge length.

First I would locate or fabricate a bevel crimp die. The original Lee Loader for shotshells has a bevel crimp shoulder that works quite well. By putting a strong finish bevel on roll crimp cartridges will shorten the working length a few thousandths and may just provide sufficient clearance.

If a bevel crimp alone does not do the trick, then the next step would be changing to a .595" ball size. This combination should parse the OAL enough to cycle.

In the USA, Track of the Wolf carries Lee .595" molds
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/4/LEE-595-DC

[luke777]

Luke777, Good to see you on line again!

I suspect you have moved up to an Addler 110 lever action shotgun. From all I've read and seen in video reviews these are great shotguns - particularly when slide and autoloading shotguns are legally out of the picture "Down Under."

For the stateside crowd here is a video review of the Adler 110:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZETC39Kf7AE

Since your TriBall cartridges are hanging on the top edge of the magazine tube there are a couple of things you can do to shed a bit of cartridge length.

First I would locate or fabricate a bevel crimp die. The original Lee Loader for shotshells has a bevel crimp shoulder that works quite well. By putting a strong finish bevel on roll crimp cartridges will shorten the working length a few thousandths and may just provide sufficient clearance.

If a bevel crimp alone does not do the trick, then the next step would be changing to a .595" ball size. This combination should parse the OAL enough to cycle.

In the USA, Track of the Wolf carries Lee .595" molds
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1202/4/LEE-595-DC

Hello James and it's great to be back.
Yes I did purchase myself an Adler A110 as you suspected. I was one of the first people on the waiting list. As soon as I confirmed it was chambered for 3" I was in like Flyn! First time I used it today and first loads through it were copies of your recipe. Well...Evidently not exact copies... I've done something wrong...
I literally JUST posted my range results from a couple of hours ago. Failed wad bases unfortunately... It's a bit of a mystery as I have read ALL your posts on the matter a hundred times and tried to avoid all the normal causes that have been identified previously. Anyway, I will not give up on this project. I will look into those 0.595" moulds and the bevel crimper too.. A bit from here and a bit from there... I'll make it happen.

Kind regards to you and yours and thanks again for your invaluable advice.

[luke777]

You could try flattening the balls slightly to reduce the overall height. This will not improve the flight characteristic, but it would make for a more stable packing and the lower balls will no doubt compress anyway due to the forces involved at launch.

Thanks Cap'n Morgan. Yes I actually wondered about that myself but was worried to mess with the dimensions of the balls. I know at ranges of 50 yards the accuracy difference from such a modification would probably be immeasurable.. I'll have a think.. Cheers! Your Avatar has inspired me to go and pour myself a Rum!

[victorfox]

Maybe you can just use a spindex kit from mec, I believe it carries the starter crimp and the bevel thing. I have a simple press for shotshells and mine have the two parts (not a mec), but you can apply some force by hand if you don't have a press.

[RMc]

Using a bevel crimp die to "finish" a roll crimp shotshell certainly enhances feeding in some cases.
For example, I found that 2.75" roll crimp #1B loads would not function in an old 2.75" chambered Winchester 1200. The same load, when run into a bevel crimp die after roll crimping would then function perfectly in that 1200.

See: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?224028-High-performance-buckshot-revisited

Ralph

[luke777]

Thanks Ralph. I'll look into that too!

[victorfox]

the mec spindex kit comes with the crimp starter and the bevel if I recall and is not expensive about US$ 8 at titan reloading.

[TonyfromItaly]

I apologise Tony but is there supposed to be a link in your post? I cant see one. Thank you.

Sorry, here it is. http://www.omv.it/bobine-orlatrici-incisori-stellari/

[Hogtamer]

Maybe a 2-ball load instead? I had good luck with that and still 1 1/2 oz of lead! I was using a different wad but perhaps a card in the bottom of the wad 1/2 diameter of a ball would help reduce height (and recoil) a bit....

[luke777]

Maybe a 2-ball load instead? I had good luck with that and still 1 1/2 oz of lead! I was using a different wad but perhaps a card in the bottom of the wad 1/2 diameter of a ball would help reduce height (and recoil) a bit....

That's worth a though too. Cheers!

[RMc]

The comparison of maximum load length for fold and roll crimps will shed some light on the subject of this discussion:

See Page 21 for 12 ga. 3" smoothbore:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299_2-Shotshell-Approved8-31-2015.pdf

[luke777]

The comparison of maximum load length for fold and roll crimps will shed some light on the subject of this discussion:

See Page 21 for 12 ga. 3" smoothbore:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/ANSI-SAAMI-Z299_2-Shotshell-Approved8-31-2015.pdf

That's very interesting. Thank you for the information. My rolled cartridges seem to be just a whisker (0.010") under max OAL for rolled 3" in a smoothbore. Still, too long to cycle in my gun. It's a Turkish manufactured gun so perhaps that has something to do with it??

[Moonie]

Personally I'd trim the hulls down just a tad, they will still roll crimp just as well and shortening them a tad should give you the clearance you need. My 930 semi-auto has no problem with them as crimped and the wife has an over/under. People have trimmed hulls down for years for fit for years, heck I have load data for 2 1/2" shells and shorter.