Another wonderful range day with the 625's [Archive]

Dale53

05-26-2008, 03:27 PM

I have had an eventful couple of weeks. First, my good friend Charlie Shaeff (the Green Frog) came up from Virginia. We both took in the NRA Convention in Louisville (we covered it for the Single Shot Rifle Journal). We got there Thursday and worked there every day until Saturday. Then the following Wednesday we went to Etna Green, IN for the American Single Shot Rifle Association Matches. Lots to do an see there.

Now, ON TOPIC...

Charlie and I staged the two man "Invitational World Championship" 625 (.45 ACP) match. The first day Charlie soundly defeated me. However, today, the Green Frog bit the dust and I regained my crown.

Man, I LUV those 625's. Charlie was shooting the Jerry Miculek Special (4") and I had my new 625-6 (5" barrel) hooked up to it's new Simmons 30 mm Red Dot. I AM impressed with this combination. Because of continuing vision problems in my right eye, I found it necessary to use my left eye. It worked just fine, thank you!

I do believe that the 5" 625 holds just a tad better than the 4". Both are mighty fine choices but I am leaning towards the 5" for my "go to" gun.

Dale53

EDK

05-26-2008, 11:12 PM

There's a 5" and 3" 625 in the safe. Both of them work well for their purposes. The 3 inch carries a bit better than the 5 in a MILT SPARKS HACKATHORN SPECIAL REVOLVER holster, but that 5 inch gun will outshoot almost anything I've ever owned!

Only flaw with the 5 inch 625 is that you have to get a custom holster for it. Not a problem for me, but maybe for others.

The 45 ACP revolver is one of the most under appreciated firearms today. The best gauge of how good they are is "how many used ones do you see?"

You have a prize in the 625

:Fire: :cbpour: :redneck:

Dale53

05-27-2008, 12:18 AM

EDK;
"You have a prize in the 625"

I feel rather fortunate to have found a "new in the box" 625-6 (5") while actually looking for one (and also for my 625-8 (4") JM Special). These ARE special revolvers!

I think I'll run off another couple of thousand cast H&G #130's this week. My kids and their families will be here next month (last of June) for our 50th Wedding Anniversary. Naturally, a "World Championship Invitational" for me and the two sons and son-in-law will be held for bragging rights with the 625's being the "weapon of choice" for all of us. I'll need plenty of ammo as the kids will no doubt wish to practice a bit before the match (hey! It's not my fault that they do not have a 625 of their own:mrgreen:). I'll have the home field advantage as well as having practiced with my own guns ("Age and guile will beat youth and enthusiasm" every time:mrgreen:) so I have a pretty good chance even though my kids and son-in-law are pretty dern good shooters in their own right.

Wish me luck!

Dale53

theperfessor

05-27-2008, 06:14 PM

Dale53

05-27-2008, 07:53 PM

the perfessor;
I use the RIMZ clips almost exclusively at the range. The plastic full moon clips, for those that are unfamiliar with them, allow you to load and unload the clips without tools (and easily, too). They make the range sessions a lot more pleasurable.

625's FOREVER!!

Dale53

StrawHat

05-28-2008, 08:31 AM

I don't have a 625 but I do have several S&W 45 ACP revolvers.

Two with 6 1/2" 1955 barrels, and one with a 4" skinny barrel.

Long ago I made a tool to remove the cartridges from the moon clips from a piece of 1/2" thin wall tubing. Just cut it to length and file a step on the end. Slip it over the case and twist it out. The tube is long enough to hold all the empties so I don't have to dump them one at a time, okay that was an accident as I cut it long enough to hold comfortably.

The pictures might make it easier to understand.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Moonclipunloader001.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc194/StrawHat/Moonclipunloader002.jpg

theperfessor, what does your demooner look like?

Dale53

05-28-2008, 10:36 AM

the perfessor;
I use the commercial demooner tool by California Competition Works:

http://www.cactustactical.com/osc/index.php?cPath=33

It demoons two cases at once and is almost effortless to use. The learning curve lasts about one minute. There are two versions - I use the less expensive one at $16.99.

This is only necessary when you use the steel full moon clips. As I mentioned above, I use the plastic RIMZ clips for range use.

Dale53

AZ-Stew

05-28-2008, 02:46 PM

Don't own any 625s (one day...), but I do own a 5" M-27. If I could send all my S&Ws (a dozen or so) back to the factory and have 5" barrels put on them, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I had Wm. Brown Holster Co., Tombstone, AZ, ( http://www.wmbrownholster.com/ ) make me a custom Jordan-style Border Patrol holster for it a number of years ago. It fit perfectly, as you'd expect from a custom holster. And the price was incredibly fair. Not cheap, not expensive. I think I got at least my money's worth on the deal. I don't know whether he made a pattern for it so he could replicate it, but if you're interested you could e-mail him. Any 5" N-frame should fit equally well.

Regards,

Stew

Ben

05-28-2008, 04:31 PM

AZ-Stew :

You're talking my line now.

Take a look at my 627, a joy to shoot :

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/S%20W%20%20627/?action=view&current=073cfeae.pbw

AZ-Stew

05-28-2008, 10:25 PM

Nice piece, Ben. I hope the others don't mind us temporarily hijacking this thread.

It would be interesting to shoot yours side-by-side with mine to experience the difference in recoil due to the heavier barrel and full-length underlug.

If I had your revolver, I'd be tempted to have it converted to .41 Mag., my favorite handgun cartridge. That heavy barrel arrangement, along with a porting job and a 950fps load using a Keith bullet would be just the thing for double-action shooting.

Hijack complete. Just wanted to let the others know about the holster.

Regards,

Stew

Dale53

05-29-2008, 12:12 AM

NHlever

06-20-2009, 08:52 PM

Ben;
My 625-6 appears nearly identical to your 627 (both are 5" full underlug barrels and have "Model of 1989" on the barrel).

Of course, mine is the superior (AHEM!:mrgreen:) caliber. I must admit that the .357 is excellent for a SMALL feller, but my preference is for the "more robust" .45 ACP (heading for cover...[smilie=1:)

Dale53

Seems to me that in Vietnam I remember hearing rumors about some encounters with home made body armour on VC that the .45 ACP would fail to penetrate, but some officers had .357's and those worked......... rumor? Heard it more than once, but never saw it thankfully though I have seen VC on the wrong side of the wire. I do like .45acp revolvers, and a local shop has a 625 JM special that sure looks nice.

lathesmith

06-20-2009, 11:05 PM

I've bragged about my home-built 5" S&W N frame in the past--now you guys start a thread and give me another chance to mention it again! This gun is (was) a mid '80's 25-5 that had a .452 barrel and .458+ throats, the only thing it was good for was collecting. I'm much more of a shooter than a collector, so after a bit of research and a bit of hand and lathe work I came up with this combo. I know it ain't a pure breed, but I still love my bastard 'Smith! Long live 5" barrels, I love the way this thing feels AND shoots now!
lathesmith

35remington

06-21-2009, 12:54 AM

So, to the various owners and users of 625's of various marks and vintages (I am one myself) I pose the question:

How well do your 625's set off 45 ACP ammo sans the clips?

When the metal full moon type clips and the cylinder faces are filthy or even moderately dirty, how often do you experience a misfire? I've no experience with the plastic thingies.

Inquiring minds want to know. I've an opinion about the matter myself. And a five inch 625-3.

IMO, you do NOT want a dirty 625 and anything other than a spotlessly clean metal full moon clip in a dire situation.

Bad juju. Not implying you definitely should or would get into trouble with a somewhat dirty 625, as I don't have all marks of revolvers made in this caliber, nor experience with the plastic clips.....but I'm just sayin' from experience I have had.

Dale53

06-21-2009, 10:15 AM

Both of my 625's (a 625-6 with 5" barrel and a 625-8 JM Special 4") exhibit excessive head space without the clips. I have no desire to punish my revolvers by trying to shoot cartridges that have excessive head space. Brian Pearce in his recent article on the "Handloading the.45 Auto Rim " in Handloader #254 August-September 2008 covers this "problem" in great detail. There is also a follow up article in the December 2008 Handloader #257 "The .45 Auto Rim Re-visited". They are extremely well done.

S&W had an internal debate regarding whether or not to headspace the newer 625's on the case mouth. They decided not to any longer. I don't know what the motivation is or is not. However, my 625's will digest a WIDE variety of bullets (weight and design) and do so with GREAT accuracy. If the change from headspacing on the case mouth to headspacing on the moonclips facilitate this, then I am all for it.

Frankly, I consider it of little importance. I have no desire to use my .45 ACP's without clips so I have to pick the cases out with my fingers. The poly clips (RIMZ) work VERY well for general range use including demanding accuracy. The steel full moon clips are more secure if a reload is dropped (not totally immune from losing a cartridge, but measurably better in this regard).

It is all about "horses for courses". If you are competing in action events or carrying as a duty gun you WILL want the steel full moon clips. For general shooting, use the poly clips (RIMZ). Or, the alternative for general use is to do what I have done, buy a quantity of Starline cases direct from them (the price is excellent and they pay for shipping on 500 or more). The Auto Rim cases operate just like any rimmed revolver case (their exceptionally thick rim takes up the space normally occupied by the ACP cases WITH clips).

Steel clips require tools to de-moon and re-moon but are pretty efficient WITH the tools. The Rimz clips require nothing more than your fingers. Auto Rim cases operate just like any other rimmed case, as I have stated above.

"You pays your money and makes your choices".

Bottom line is that my 625's are two of the most used revolvers I have ever owned and shot. To put things in perspective, I will shoot somewhere between 5000-10,000 revolver rounds this year and MOST of them will be the .45's in my 625's. I no longer compete but just thoroughly enjoy shooting these fine revolvers with all of their positives.

YMMV

Dale53

45nut

06-21-2009, 11:58 AM

Love my 5" 625. It's the most accurate revolver I own. I shoot it against some of my tech students with their Glocks and 1911s at a local range and get cussed a lot cause I can usually beat them in accuracy.

Got to be a whole lot more fun after making an effective demooner!

I have a Cal Comp demooner I keep in a range bag, but for expedient field work that is basic and simple and trim nothing beats the old fashioned clothes pin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/100_1558.jpg

No bigger in your pocket than a Sharpie felt pen and so easy, a ever so minor trim/sanding and you just pop the cases right out, nothing works as easily in the field.

And those commercial demooners do not work with the half moons, this does!

35remington

06-21-2009, 12:45 PM

Dale, you said quite a lot, but you really didn't answer my questions.

And your answer is..............?

Pearce does not think that shooting clipless ammo in a 625 is a particular problem regarding headspace, but rather something far preferable to how they are turning out the 625 now (see his comments in the followup article; maybe it is a problem in your own particular revolver). He advocates making 625's that will shoot 45 ACP's reliably without the clips at all and has strongly petitioned Smith to turn revolvers out this way. He considers it rather negligent to design a revolver that MUST use clips when a dire situation could demand shooting clipless, loose ACP rounds in an emergency. I must say I have to agree with him. I have found no problems with shooting clipless ACP rounds, save for the fact that they do not always go off reliably.

Shouting hosannas about the 625, which, BTW, I am very fond of, without mentioning its downsides via reduced reliability when dirty and with bent clips, and inability to shoot clipless rounds is only telling half the story, IMO. The clips are a "negative" to partially offset the "positives."

Metal clips are VERY fragile when loaded with cartridges. Bending of the thin metal "fingers" is possible when they are handled with even only slight roughness and misfires will then ensue as the bent portion will "bounce" with firing pin impact and misfire. For example, dropping a clip loaded with six heavy 45 ACP cartridges on any hard surface from hip pocket height (quite possible to do when handling the clips) is reason to pull all six rounds and examine the clip for potentially harmful bends which will cause misfires.

When the first six rounds MUST go off I go to the Auto Rim option or take great pains before loading the clips with ammo to ensure the metal full moon clips are laying dead flat on a straight edged surface, and I also ensure the back of the cylinder is spotlessly clean and the full moon clips scrubbed of all buildup from fouling. Failure to do so cushions the firing pin blow and increases possibilities of misfiring. Loose ammo not loaded in clips is also auto rim. The first six shots procedure I outline is SOP when contemplating use of a 625 for hunting or personal defense.

The nettlesome thing is that when the firing pin strikes the primer of a cartridge loaded in a full moon clip, the cartridge must sometimes drag some of the other cartridges along for the ride forward when the fit is "springy" due to fouling or headspace slack, which does exist even in clipped ammo and is the normal situation. This, I find, reduces the effectiveness of the firing pin blow. And, regrettably, reduces the reliability of the revolver compared to one that uses a standard rimmed cartridge. Which is why, when I have a choice in the matter, that Auto Rims are loaded for the serious first six shots, and clips are for range use.

Most of the time, using full moon clipped ammo and clips in good shape, there's usually not a problem. However, let things go for awhile, or become less vigilant about clip condition and misfires are a distinct possibility.

wallenba

06-21-2009, 07:34 PM

The best mooner/demooner I have tried. click on pick for a larger look.

wallenba

06-21-2009, 07:35 PM

Oops... should say it's a CCW product available thru Dillon's

lathesmith

06-21-2009, 10:25 PM

I don't quite get the fixation on the clips. I mean, Colt's AR-15 requires a magazine to fire, the famed 1911 is a single-shot without a magazine...what gives? If the clips bother you, use AR brass. Seems simple to me. Yes, I'm sure if your revolver gets filthy enough, the gun won't function with or without the clips. And dropping them? Sure it happens....but what about dropping loaded drums and magazines from any type of semi-auto? Wouldn't such a careless act also require a full inspection of the abused piece before re-using it?
I really haven't shot my 625-wannabe enough to know at what point it gets dirty enough to misfire. My casual shooting usually involves going to the range and burning up maybe 150 rounds or so, and I have never had a misfire in this amount of firing that was directly traceable to dirty clips. The only misfires I have ever had with this revolver were the result of a loose hammer spring screw, and a dirty firing pin hole. Once these were taken care of, this gun is as reliable as any handgun I own.
So, I'll have to leave the question of how many hundreds of rounds it takes to cause misfires due to dirty clips to those who do a lot more shooting than I do. At my level of shooting, I don't experience this. As for me, I like my clips, and their convenience, and will continue to use them without a second thought.
lathesmith

Heavy lead

06-21-2009, 10:35 PM

I'm with lathesmith here, I have one 625, however I won't shoot much more than 200 rounds with any of my guns without a thorough cleaning and that included magazines, moon clips, whatever. I love the full moon clips and demooner tool and only wish the 45 Colt, 44 Mag, 357, and 38 were set up this way too. I know there are people that do 357 conversions for moon clips and I really want an eight shot 627 with the conversion. In fact has anyone ever heard of a custom 625 with 45 Win Mag? Interesting thought.

Dale53

06-21-2009, 11:44 PM

35Remington;
>>>Dale, you said quite a lot, but you really didn't answer my questions.

And your answer is..............?<<<

I thought that I had. Any gun that exhibits excess headspace can be unreliable. My two 625's are unreliable when .45 ACP cases are used without clips. The loaded rounds fall into the cylinder too deep for proper ignition without clips. So-o-o, I use clips with .45 ACP's. My true preference for range use is .45 Auto Rim cases.

I have NEVER had a misfire in over 5000 rounds through my two revolvers. I am not a "compulsive cleaner" but tend to clean every 300-500 rounds. I DO run a chamber brush through the chambers periodically while at the range. I also keep an eye on the area under the extractor (but since I am careful to eject the shells when the revolver is vertical this does not seem to be a recurring problem). I have not bent any clips. I use demooner's and that seems to me to be much less damaging than trying to pry them out without tools. Bent clips COULD be bad, I agree - just never happened to me. If I bent one, that would be discarded.

Dale53

JSH

06-22-2009, 09:03 AM

I have a 625JM that I bought a couple of years ago. I can hardly say I love it, but, i won't say I hate it either. I will say it had way more "issues" than I would have ever guessed after doing a lot of reading on these wheel guns. It has been to the "doctor" twice, each time with a vast improvement. Also has had some home "cures" done that I felt I could do with complete confidence. Also improved performance.
If I had it to do all over again, I would start with a plain jane bare bones 25 or 625 and add what I wanted. I would have saved some $ from a couple of 45acp SW wheelguns I have seen, with out all the headaches and issues that have come up with the 625JM bought brand new.
You guys that are happy with accuracy. Care to enlighten me some as to what kind of load, group and sights you are using.
I have loaded several standard BE type loads with mediocure accuracy. Seems the wheel gun likes a bit more zip. I have tried 3 or 4 types of bullets .
jeff

Dale53

06-22-2009, 09:52 AM

I have had no "issues" with either of my 625's. However, I did personally install a Jerry Miculek balanced spring kit to to improve an already excellent trigger. I set it up for a nine pound double action and a 3.0 single action. Both triggers are exemplary, now. The JM Special has a grooved trigger that I prefer but I seem to shoot the 5" smooth trigger just as well. Just a matter of getting used to either.

Regarding loads:
Both of these revolvers of mine seem to shoot anything I put in them with match accuracy. They will both shoot well under 1" at 25 yards with little discrimination. Once I ran a little test - I had three different bullets and four different powders and all of them shot to point of aim when shooting offhand. That is pretty remarkable, to me.

Currently, I am shooting 4.5 grs of 5066 (discountinued powder) with either the H&G #130 or MiHec's H&G #68 Clone. I have shot 4.0 Bullseye or 4.3-4.5 of Win 231 with near equal effect. I seat me bullets out a bit further than I do in the 1911 platforms to help line up the bullet with the throat. I cast my own bullets and size .452". My alloy is wheelweights plus 2% tin. I lube with White Label Carnauba Red. I prime with Federal 150 LP primers.

My sights are a Simmons 30mm Red Dot. Here is the 5":

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QDalesRevolversandPistols-1720.jpg

I'm always sorry to hear others having problems. Hopefully, you have it sorted out, now.

Dale53

theperfessor

06-22-2009, 05:56 PM

My 625 is a 5" version. Except for the previous owner putting on the orange front sight (and doing a mediocre job of it) it is completely stock.

I made this demooner one day when I was real bored from a piece of 3/4" mild steel rod stock. Drilled end out with 1/2" drill, turned OD to clear adjacent cases and put coarse knurl on handle. Flipped it around and drilled handle hollow just to lighten it up. One pass with mill to make "hood" and then deburr/degrease followed by application of Birchwood-Casey blackening compound.

Wasn't 'til I got done that I realized it looked like a government model barrel with a knurled handle. It would be a good use for all those barrels going to waste in all those back-and-forth .45s out there. (Just kidding!)

It works great but as my wife often points out to me concerning some of my projects it is somewhat "overkill" and to be honest some of the demooners I've seen posted here by other members are as good if not better and very ingenious to boot. I especially like the clothespin idea - I'll keep that in mind in an emergency.

I often shoot 100+ rounds at a time through mine before cleaning and have had no reliability issues and honestly I hope I'm never in a self-defense situation where I have to shoot more than a few shots to stop problem. Yes, moon clips can bend but I've also seen dropped and dented magazines that wouldn't feed as well as problems when the top round moves forward preventing magazine from going into gun easily.

The broad range of velocities, bullet weights and loaded lengths that can be used in a .45 ACP revolver makes it far more versatile than a .45 semiauto. I will leave debate as to which is a "better" gun to others, but I know my 625 will outshoot any other .45 in MY battery, and do it with bullets from 180 to 265 grs in all sorts of styles, many of which wouldn't feed or function in a self loader.

One benefit I've not seen mentioned here is that the .45ACP/AR is a short round that ejects easily from a revolver, unlike some long revolver-only rounds where short stroking the ejector rod or having a short barrel with a limited-stroke ejector rod (a J-frame in .357 w/a 2" barrel) can cause problems.

35remington

06-22-2009, 09:15 PM

Now, you may well believe that I've put an awful lot of shots downrange with my 625 too, and my observations in so doing have lead to a standard of behavior I won't change.

I am a field shooter as well as a range bum, and clips are often carried in plenty afield (I've taken two deer with my 625-3). In such situations they aren't babied, just carried in a coat pocket, and this has many similarities to a self defense situations wherein the spare full moon clip, even if carried in an appropriate holder or belt carrier, is subject to a few knocks. The full moon clip is far less durable than a speedloader.

Further, an autoloader magazine is much tougher than a moon clip. Carrying these moon clips around in a front pants pocket while loaded and then sitting down (tightening the fabric over the moon clip) will often bend them, as will accidentally sitting on a coat that has them in the pocket, or dropping them (ask me how I know!!! - It IS a problem!)

The comments about clips and reliability very much needed saying, especially to those who haven't ventured outside the confines of a shooting range where the clips may be babied - so I'm not surprised some of you haven't experienced what I have. As did the comments about the desirability of a revolver than can shoot clipless rounds - once again, this is "field shooting and defense" related. I agree with Pearce here, as I mentioned. However my gun differs from the other poster's here may account for the fact that I seem to be able to headspace the rounds after a fashion, but the reliability is not 100 percent when using clipless ACP's either, for some reason. My gun has the firing pin fixed to the hammer.

Don't let your chambers, cylinder face or clips accumulate fouling when it matters whether the gun goes off or not. Adding a loose piece of metal to the headspacing equation, and increasing the possibility that the cartridge has to drag others forward before the firing pin delivers its full blow has a bit of a downside, reliability wise. It can't be any other way. Making things more complicated NEVER increases reliability, and this is not something to take for granted. As the man said, ain't no free lunch, and the price is extra vigilance to prevent situations that can cushion the firing pin blow. Don't let it happen to you.

Range shooting justifies somewhat slack maintenance, but due to the presence of the clips serious usage does mean a clean gun and clips are essential. I've said my piece and mentioned an important point, which I often see missing from the discussions on the 625. Mission accomplished.

My 625-3 says "Model of 1989" and was purchased in 1991. Serial number is BEN 20XX.

JSH, after recovering quite a number of bullets fired from my 625, I can state that with lightweight (~185 grain) bullets cast of ordinary wheelweight alloy and possessing good bearing surface, skidding is pretty limited, with only widened rifling marks at the front of the bullet and normal engraving on the rear. Leading is minimal. However, with bullets of greater weight and inertia, such as 255 grain SWC's and RNFP's, skidding is so bad with unhardened wheelweights that nearly the entire surface of the bullet is marked by the rifling, leading and blowby increase, and accuracy is poor.

This is a reason why many seem to do better with lighter bullets of relatively long bearing surface when cast of unhardened wheelweights. In addition, in my gun, best jacketed bullet accuracy is with the 185 JHP's for the same reason, as the jacketed bullets will show some skidding as well (literally, double rifling marks).

Hardening the bullet makes all the difference with the heavies and doesn't hurt the lighter bullets either. In my case I find happiness with a hard bullet, and to counteract the lack of obturation I use a soft lube. Leading is relatively minimal, but in the target type loads of mild velocity lubing just the bottom groove gives better accuracy as too much seems to open groups. In addition, the single groove holds plenty of lube to keep the leading down.

I favor a discontinued Lee 190 grain SWC of target (short nose) configuration with good bearing for best accuracy and mild recoil. The old standard of 3.5-4.0 Bullseye shoots well and is very mild at ~700 fps.

I don't find there's any more voodoo to it than that.

Conversely, due to comments made about its suitability I finally got around to trying the RCBS 270 SAA bullet cast hard and seated in the Auto Rim cases and it does shoot very well. It hits very high, though, and having to readjust the sights is aggravating. I nearly have to bottom them out to get it zeroed.

I've shot over 13 different designs of cast bullets through the 625 (moulded myself), using powders from Bullseye and Red Dot to 2400, with the heavier weights running near 1000 fps. That will do most of what I need doing with a handgun.

It's a great revolver, with a few drawbacks relating to the clips. Auto Rim cartridges solve those problems handily.

theperfessor

06-22-2009, 09:46 PM

35 rem

I agree with everything you said. I think you can get speedloaders for .45 AR instead of moon clips if that's a major issue. While I've never used one I imagine it would work as well as any other speed loader and probably has the short-stroke advantage on loading that short cases have during extraction.

I don't think any revolver that uses moon clips (9mm and 10mm/.40 included) would be the best first revolver for an inexperienced person to buy.

I've always thought that the main advantage to using .45 ACP cartridges is cross platform versatility and lots of available cheap brass. The AR is a better pure revolver cartridge. In both cases you end up with a remarkably efficient big bore revolver cartridge normally chambered in good quality firearms. :-D

35remington

06-22-2009, 10:15 PM

Perfesser, I picked up a couple of Auto Rim HKS speedloaders (I like this type) at a gun show in Fremont. They look kinda funny when loaded as the stubby cartridges only poke out the front of the speedloader a fairly short distance. The speedloader is wider than it is long when it is loaded with cartridges. I never guessed that these were ever made, but they do (or did?) make them.

I've never begrudged loading or unloading the clips and never thought it was much of a hassle. I like the extra loading speed they offer when a couple of dozen are ready to go. My homemade de-mooner is simply cut from a piece of half inch thin walled galvanized metal pipe with a tit left on the end when I hacksawed it off, and the tit presses against the clip while I twist the round off. Made it long enough to hold six loaded rounds, and just covered the other end with electrician's tape to prevent the rounds from falling out.

I've never damaged a clip with this tool, nor have I bent one loading them, but carrying them around in coat or pocket for any appreciable length of time is hard on them, especially when jumping ditches, sitting down, etc.

My demooner looks like a primitive hunk of cheap pipe (which it is!) compared to yours (beautiful workmanship you have there) but it gets the job done.

Bass Ackward

06-23-2009, 10:11 AM

Funny thing about these is that I never had one till I got older simply because it wasn't a velocity champ. When I was a kid, the bullseye competitors at the range all had 17s or 25-2s. Some looked pretty ratty and had electrical tape for traction, but danged if they didn't shoot. Even the ones that were straight bored clear through the cylinders. No obturation there. They shot them week after week without cleaning sometimes 500 shots a day. But they would cry endlessly if they got to the point that the cylinder wouldn't index and they had to clean.

No body would tell you squat about what they were doing in those days. But they didn't have to. I could smell Bullseye and you can see Unique. When they left, the bullets in the berm were harder than hell to a man. And nothing was under 200 grains.

My fascination with this is that I can burn anything and do well. And it doesn't have a primer fetish. If I have to shoot 20-1, I can slow it down and make it work. I don't have to conger up some new wiz bang lube. I don't live for the gun, it does what I want. It has emptied my powder locker of stuff there from the Napoleonic wars. And .... you didn't have to see the bottom of the can to find gold. And best of all, it gets oooohs and ahhhhhs at the targets.

While not quite a 38 Special, after magnums, it is a true joy to deal with minus the clips. And 98% of my shooting is with AR brass just to avoid the hassles.

Dale53

06-23-2009, 10:59 AM

Bass Ackward;
While not quite a 38 Special, after magnums, it is a true joy to deal with minus the clips. And 98% of my shooting is with AR brass just to avoid the hassles.

BINGO!

Actually, most all of these comments are on target. 35 Remington and I differ on the headspace issue, but that is merely "different strokes for different folks". I don't believe either opinion is wrong, just different.

I have gone to Auto Rims, mostly, but the relatively low cost of once fired .45 ACP brass still tempts me from time to time. When I succumb to that I use the Rimz clips (no tools needed) and they seem to last a LONG time (so far, I have not worn any out). They are relatively inexpensive if they do fail (everything fails sooner or later). Now, if I were still shooting the Action Sports, my attitude with the full moon clips would be different. I am an old woods rambler, too, but never worried about a quick reload in that scenario. I just endeavor to make the first shot count. Of course, YMMV. My deer hunting has always been with my .44 Magnums, so I have never worried much about heavy loads in the 625's. However, if you are limited in your number of revolvers (I was for years) then I would have NO reluctance to load up a 255 gr Keith bullet at 1000 fps and take to the deer woods. I am sure it would do the job nicely (hey, the black powder .45 Colt was not that powerful and it would reportedly shoot through a horse at 100 yards).

At any rate, I notice one thing we ALL seem to agree on, the 25-625 platform is a delightful platform with lots of options. One thing that I don't think has been mentioned, you don't have to pick up brass anymore (i have nearly retired my 1911's). I am just getting too old and fat to enjoy bending over picking up brass:cry::cry:

Dale53

coat

06-23-2009, 11:09 AM

My 625 is my best Handgun.I have 357s 41s and 44 rugers.I always go back to 625.I like auto rim brass but i get bullet jump with auto brass> I thank it is the brass I don't get bullet jump with ACP brass. It is easy to load for

Dale53

06-23-2009, 11:20 AM

Coat;
I like auto rim brass but i get bullet jump with auto brass>

I presume you mean you get bullet movement with the Auto Rim brass. If you are using Remington Auto Rim brass, that has historically been too thin for my tastes. Even Remington .45 ACP brass I will no longer try to load and haven't for years because of this. I prefer military brass (Winchester, or Federal) in .45 ACP or Starline commercial in both .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim. Starline is plenty thick and I get NO bullet set back in the .45 ACP nor bullets creeping forward in the Auto Rim cases. I do NOT crimp heavy, either (with the target SWC's I use a taper crimp value of .470" at the case mouth). I've loaded the 200 gr SWC's to over a 1000 fps without bullet movement (one loaded round with two cylinders full fired without movement). Of course, were I using the Lyman 452424 or 452664, I would use a medium roll crimp in the crimp groove provided with sufficient neck tension for the job.

Dale53

coat

06-23-2009, 11:44 AM

Dale53 Sir:I have lyman's 425424 I Can Not get to shoot. I got RCBS 230 Cm molds I like them I lot. You are right about Remington Brass I have about 300 Rem. auto rim Left It is real bad After three loads It is going bad Small hole in it. I get Bullet creep with Star too but not as bad i have rcbs and dillon sizer die I can live with a little creep. I have to put a lot crimp on so it will not creep

Dale53

06-23-2009, 12:49 PM

My experience with the heavier bullets in my 625's has NOT been extensive. However, were I having a problem with a particular bullet not shooting well, there are several things I would check. First of all, that my throat size is correct for the caliber. The cylinder throats should be, ideally, .001" larger than barrel groove diameter. Historically, the main problems with the older 25 - 625 platform has been throats too large for the barrel and bullet size (it has been reported that some throats have been as large as .457" (ideal size typically runs .4525"). A .452" bullet diameter is not apt to work well with .457" throats.

Both of my 625's (a 625-6 and a 625-8) have the "modern", proper throat size of .452". Any .452" bullet I put in them seems to shoot quite well with a variety of powder charges. The Lyman 250 gr .452664 RF has a full diameter front band. When sized .452" it is a slight press fit in my cylinder throats. This is near ideal. I have checked several friends late 625's and they have the same measurements. THIS IS GOOD.

If you have an older 25 or 625 I would measure the throats and try to reach accomodation with that throat size. Undersize throats are relatively easy to correct by reaming the cylinder throats. However, too large and you need a new cylinder (not cheap). There are those that have been able to find a bullet mould that casts .456-.457" bullet and that should work well with over size throats. However, that presupposes that the chambers are large enough to chamber a cartridge with a bullet that large. This is further explained quite well in John Taffin's article on the "625-2 .45 Auto Rim" :

http://web.archive.org/web/20030217042121/www.sixguns.com/range/sw6252.htm

Bullet creep suggests that you do not have enough bullet tension (either the sizing die is not sizing enough or the expander stem is too large). It is suggested, that for heavy loads, that the expander stem needs to be .004"-.005" under cast bullet size. The hardness of the bullet must be adjusted to correspond to this. Conversely, when using light, soft, bullets at target velocity you may need to have the expanding stem closer to bullet size to avoid damaging soft bullets. "Always something, eh-h-h?"

Good luck in your quest.
Dale53

theperfessor

06-23-2009, 03:40 PM

I bought an RCBS roll crimp die to add to my basic RCBS carbide three die set. I don't crimp heavily but I do turn the case mouth back in a little. Made my own M-type (two diameter) expander plugs for most of my pistol calibers. I just run the plug in deep enough (.050 - .060") for the second, larger diameter to create a little cylinder with a concentric bottom that helps align bullets straight in the case prior to seating. Doesn't shave lead off and seats bullets as straight as possible. I can control neck tension by using the proper size first diameter and by controlling length I can end up with bottom of bullet stopping at the proper depth on the unexpanded part of case. This helps prevent telescoping in autos.

Since we're all .45 ACP/AR fans share your opinion with me about an idea I've had for a while concerning the lack of durability of moon clipped ammo under rough handling.

How about a round plastic case roughly the size of a 6 shot .45 cylinder with an attached (so you won't lose it) snap shut lid. Fill this with styrofoam with holes for the six rounds and a hole down the center so you could get your finger in it. Pad the bottom of the lid also. Just put your ammo in the round mini-ammo box and snap the lid shut. For field use where rapid reloads are less necessary this might address the problem. If made properly it would be waterproof, rugged, and reusable.

Any comments?

20nickels

06-23-2009, 03:43 PM

Maybe I can help on a couple of questions;
A gunsmith I have spoken with says he reams the chambers on every 625 that comes through his doors and has yet to see a -8 that the reamer doesn't cut metal on. Mine were extremely tight when I bought it and would foul up very quickly. When the chambers were reamed with a Clymer. Reloads went much more smoothly and accuracy did not suffer. I have gone up to 300 rds without cleaning (mixed brass of every kind) and did not skip a beat. A THR member did a rd count torture test and finally gave up on his 625 at 500 rds. I'm using WST and Clays and Roll crimp everything.

For those who are bending moonclips, What kind are you using? My fat fingers have fumbled and dropped plenty of moons and I have dropped to prone on top if them and all are still ticking 100% and never cleaned. Ranch Products $35 per 100 ct. A screaming bargain!

I guess shooting ACP one at a time would be a nice thought though I still wouldn't do it. 45ACP brass is wildly different (it's 100 yrs old) and clips and AR fix any variables. In fact I one time considered cutting out the ACP shoulder in the cylinder with a 45 Colt reamer because I admired the self cleaning properties of rimmed cartridges, not sure I would gain anything.

Finally, I use Ranch's 1/3 moonclips for carry city/woods. Sure they load 3 times slower, but carry 1 dozen rds easily in a nylon .22lr/pellet pouch, and I can do a partial reload with mixed ammos. An under appreciated product IMO.

A fanatastic all around firearm. I don't even own an autoloader, the 625 is awesome in it's own right. A commonly available defense rd chambered in one of the classiest 6 guns of all time, the N frame Smith.

35Remmington,
Have you taken any game with the 185 grainers you mentioned? When people hunt witht the 45ACP they always want to go heavy (200 to 255gr) and they always get total pass though. Why not go with the more accurate and further reaching 185? Just curious.

35remington

06-23-2009, 06:30 PM

My moonclips are the Ranch Products offering.

20nickels:

Yes, the two deer I've shot were with 185 grain bullets, but they were jacketed, not cast. I used Hornady's JHP design just before they went to their XTP.

Taking a load out of Speer's Number 8 manual for a 200 grain bullet using Unique, then reducing it a bit, got me where I wanted to go with a 185 JHP. (They had such a volume of Unique in this load that I thought it prudent not to go with their charge as listed, which turned out to be a wise decision, I think). Velocity was 1250 fps. Both deer were broadside presentations, one at 30 yards, the other, second deer at 15. When the bullet hit the second deer I could see the hair fly up on the rib cage, and he took off like a racehorse. I found him dead after about a 50-60 yard run.

On both deer, the bullet had centered a rib both going in and out. The holes through the lungs were just short of tennis ball sized, which I thought was pretty good.

From shooting these revolvers with heavy cast bullets, I do not dispute that the heavy bullet is most reliable and all around useful, and I am sure the deer would also have dropped had I been using a heavy SWC. However, from the testing I've done, and knowledge of the penetration required to go through and through a deer's ribcage, I settled on the JHP as being somewhat more damaging to soft lung tissue and likely to down the deer closer to where it's shot. It worked satisfactorily on two deer, anyway.

I am sure the newer designed XTP would be a step up from what I was using, but given that I can pick my shots to some degree from a deerstand I had no problems with using a less penetrative hollow point.

If the lighter bullet has a meplat to do some damage I can't see where a lighter bullet would be all that inferior to a heavier one on deer, which don't need that much penetration anyway. Aside from those two deer, what little small game hunting I've done has been with an accurate lower velocity SWC. Including four raccoon, two up a tree and two dispatched in a trap to see the effect.

Works a lot better than a .22 pistol, for sure! I personally tend to shoot the lightweight SWC's better than the heavier ones on the range and in the field. Call it greater recoil disturbance, lack of concentration, a slight flinch, whatever.....when I compare my target scores, the lightweight SWC wins out, but mostly due to less shooter fatigue over a string of shots, not necessarily greater inherent precision.

Perfesser, I'm guessing you have an existing round plastic case in mind already to cushion the full moon clip. I myself have always wanted a speedloader clip pouch for the belt with more rigid sides that is resistant to hunting bumps and scrapes, but given the presence of AR brass I've haven't exerted much effort in that direction.

If your method is as cushioning as it sounds, it sure would work. A guaranteed functional spare clip has a value that is worth some effort to bring about. At least to me.

In the meantime the HKS speedloader works pretty well.

On edit: After perusing the link to John Taffin's article (which I've seen before), I'd have to caution against using the 454424 with 7.0 grains Unique in either the Auto Rim or ACP cases or the 452490 with 7.0 Unique or 8.0 Herco unless and until you've chronographed the velocities of lesser charges in your own 625. Given the velocities I've obtained with lesser amounts of Unique and Herco in my gun, highest prudent velocities come with considerably less than the suggested amount of these powders, IMO. Of course, this can vary with the specific bullet being used and the amount of case volume it occupies. Less available case volume=higher pressures.

A half grain less Unique and a full grain less Herco would be much more advisable. 6.5 grains Unique gets, for example, 30 to 40 f/s more velocity in my gun than John claims with 7.0 grains in his gun. Given these considerable variances, and the fact that I believe my data is more representative (arrogant? Mebbe, but check to see if your gun behaves as mine does.....it's a reasonable safety policy) of what's happening regarding these powders currently, I had to say my piece here, too.

Using a different, more deeply seated make of 255 SWC would necessitate even more caution.

20nickels

06-23-2009, 10:23 PM

Thanks for clarifying on the 185gr, my thoughts exactly. Come see us sometime, calendar is on the left side scroll down. Pistol shoots on Sat. monthly, I rarely miss them.
http://www.heartlandpublicshootingpark.com/

NoDakJak

06-24-2009, 12:19 AM

I don't have a 625 but have been shooting a S&W Model 1917 for about fifteen years. It is certainly a fine shooting revolver and one of my favorites. The headspace is a mite tight for use with the steel clips and sometimes causes the cylinder to not revolve. I have never seen the new plastic clips but bought a couple hundred Remington, Autorim cases and am very pleased. Now I intend to buy several hundred more. I have several boolits just laying there and a goood H&G mold waiting to cast umpty thousand more. Neil

Catshooter

06-24-2009, 05:44 PM

perfessor,

I like your idea of the plastic case. Got one handy/post a pic?

Cat

theperfessor

06-25-2009, 12:05 PM

No, it's just an idea I've had for a while. A lot of plastic ammo boxes are made in one piece out of a flexible plastic (usually polypropylene or a variant) with the plastic forming the hinge. And a lot of commercial ammo comes in trays with styrofoam inserts to protect the rounds during shipping and handling. I figure you could injection mold the case in one piece and the foam insert in one piece with the lid liner die cut from sheet foam. A couple of drops of glue to hold insert into case and liner to inside of lid.

You could carry full, half, or 1/3 moon clips or even individual AR rounds.

You would end up with a rugged, watertight, silent ammo carrier that could be dropped into a speed-loader holder or just stuffed into a jacket pocket. And I bet they wouldn't cost more than $2-$3 each in quantity.

wallenba

06-25-2009, 06:39 PM

softpoint

06-25-2009, 09:29 PM

OK, I'm not as old as some of the rest of the 'ol bullet casters here, so I know there is a supply of these around to carry full moons in, Some have screw on caps like this one ,some are snap on , there is a size larger than this that holds three full moon clips. And I get them all from my mother in law:bigsmyl2: They will break if abused too badly, but they are dust and waterproof and NOT CHEAP! or are they free?

softpoint

06-25-2009, 09:56 PM

And those full moons in the medicine bottles are loaded with 14gr. HS7 and the old 200gr. Speer "flying ashtray" in .45 Super brass. for about 1250 fps. That load will walk you through the valley of the shadow....
I don't recomend that load to anyone else...Work up slowly, especially when substituting another bullet.:-D

softpoint

06-28-2009, 08:54 AM

Couldn't resist! Heres mine, 4" 625-8 and 5" 625-4. 4inch with round butt grips, 5inch with round to square conversion grips.

Dale53

06-28-2009, 11:02 AM

35Remington;
On edit: After perusing the link to John Taffin's article (which I've seen before), I'd have to caution against using the 454424 with 7.0 grains Unique in either the Auto Rim or ACP cases or the 452490 with 7.0 Unique or 8.0 Herco unless and until you've chronographed the velocities of lesser charges in your own 625. Given the velocities I've obtained with lesser amounts of Unique and Herco in my gun, highest prudent velocities come with considerably less than the suggested amount of these powders, IMO. Of course, this can vary with the specific bullet being used and the amount of case volume it occupies. Less available case volume=higher pressures.

A half grain less Unique and a full grain less Herco would be much more advisable. 6.5 grains Unique gets, for example, 30 to 40 f/s more velocity in my gun than John claims with 7.0 grains in his gun. Given these considerable variances, and the fact that I believe my data is more representative (arrogant? Mebbe, but check to see if your gun behaves as mine does.....it's a reasonable safety policy) of what's happening regarding these powders currently, I had to say my piece here, too.

You are certainly on point here. Frankly, we should approach ALL new loading data with caution. Recently, I reviewed an older article from Handloader (I believe) where the author mentioned the serious differences between various issues of the Lyman 454424/452424 bullet moulds. He had samples of bullets from several different bullet moulds. It is a real eye opener to see the differences in seating depth on these different moulds that REPRESENT themselves to be the same moulds. That seating depth differences can easily be the reason for the differences between chronographed loads by different people (in addition to all of the OTHER differences - different revolvers, different case neck tension, different lots of powder, different primers, ad nauseum...). Yeah, it sure pays to be cautious.

The same thing applies to other Lyman moulds (and other manufacturers, as well). They make material changes to the mould cherries but label the moulds the same. There is really little excuse for that behavior on the part of the manufacturer but that is "the real world" and it is left up to us, the bullet caster and reloader, to maintain our "alert status".

Dale53