Breaktop revolvers, .32 and .38 S&W

[quail4jake]

Anyone interested in S&W top opening revolvers and handloading the mighty .32 and .38 S&W? I have recently been loading both and having a great time, looking for advice and to share experiences, photos etc.

[Outpost75]

Anyone interested in S&W top opening revolvers and handloading the mighty .32 and .38 S&W? I have recently been loading both and having a great time, looking for advice and to share experiences, photos etc.

In the .32 S&W a single-0 buckshot and 1 grain of Bullseye or Titegroup.
In the. 38 S&W a triple-0 buckshot and 2 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup.

[quail4jake]

lube? leading?

[dtknowles]

I have S&W Top Break revolvers in both those calibers. I just load them using starting loads from the Lyman Handbook. They are fine. See my avatar. It was fun shooting them for a while but I had to aim for the crotch of the target to hit in the chest. Fixed sights and so, so accuracy, they spend most of their time in the safe.

Tim

[Dan Cash]

My Schofield is a bit larger than your .32s and .38s but still a Smith Top Break. These little guns are not magnums but they are not the weak sisters that many think. I can not speak for the no name or off brand top breaks but the Smith will stand standard factory pressure loads. If the gun is shooting way high for you, look at your load.

[Outpost75]

lube? leading?

Seat ball flush with case mouth, wipe BB sized dab of grease around gap between ball and case mouth.

[quail4jake]

Thanks! I agree that especially the .38 has a little snort to it if loaded to original specs. I load a 145 gr Missouri bullet LRN with 2.5 gr of Trail Boss and get reliable 650 FPS producing a 2 inch group 2 inches high at 25 yards in a S&W perfected double action. That about duplicates the performance of my S&W model 14 with a target LRN load, it may not be a special ops magnum but either one knocks groundhogs down with authority on our farm. When ISIS comes to our place I may reconsider weapon choice...maybe to a cal. .50 M2!
Thanks for bringing the large frame Smiths into the conversation, I have a Uberti .45 Schofield repro that shoots great, anyone with No.3 interest please chime in too!

[quail4jake]

Like those Smiths on your avatar, is that top one a No.3?

[Wayne Smith]

Have a H&R 32 (my grandmother's gun) that I use the 1grBE/buckshot load in. I size the buckshot, they are not consistent. This gives me a slight ring to crimp into, using 32S&W 310 dies in my TruLine Jr.

Also have a S&W Schofield Mdl 3 (2000) that I shoot with a 250gr boolit.

Let's not forget the H&R Sportsman 9shot break top .22, as well.

[dtknowles]

Like those Smiths on your avatar, is that top one a No.3?

Yep, #3 New Frontier in 44-40. I load it with trail boss and 200 grain LFN. All three are shooters, kind of rough not really collectable but I like having them. I have a baby Russian in 38 S&W and a single action in 32 S&W that need some action work before I can shoot them, they are rough too, not pretty. If I run across more cheap S&W top breaks like a big single action I would pick them up too. I have a Merwin and Hulbert double action in 38 S&W, would like a 44 as well.

173627

Tim

[quail4jake]

My compliments, nice pieces. I have an 1877 baby Russian too, fired it yesterday along with several others. Some of them group real nice at 25 yards, my goal is to kill a groundhog with every one and photograph the kill, hunter and weapon African style...what an accolade!

[bouncer50]

In my humble opinion the Webley has to be the best of the break open design in 38 S&W I have a few I.J break open that i do not trust to shoot.

[quail4jake]

Big 10-4 on that Webley, they originated the .380/200 with its added oomph and very strong action (for a break top). Yeah, caution on that I-J if she's rattlin'; I've seen the results of a hinge action fly apart...the empty brass kicks directly back out of the suddenly opened breech, like right at the shooter's face. Not a very pretty scene! I have an I-J .32 in really great condition that hits dead on at 25 yards and groups about 4" but it's nothing like the feel of an S&W.

[FergusonTO35]

The .38 S&W really isn't such a bad round with good ammo in a good gun. I think most of it's poor reputation comes from the watered down factory ammo and oodles of junktastic guns made in this caliber. I load my S&W 637-2 .38 Special to published .38 S&W performance level (146 grain wadcutter at 720 fps) and I think it strikes just the right balance of accuracy, power level, and mild recoil.

[dtknowles]

In my humble opinion the Webley has to be the best of the break open design in 38 S&W I have a few I.J break open that i do not trust to shoot.

I think the S&W's are better as least as far as the smaller frames go. The Webley's are bigger and bulkier. I don't know about the triggers as I have never fired a Webley. S&W triggers are sweet. My New Frontier is a big gun but so aren't the big bore Webley's

Tim

[Outpost75]

My Webley MkIV .380 has stiff springs and smooth, but heavy DA pull, like my Colt New Service M1909.

SA let-off is a slight "roll" before break at 5 lbs. like a rack-grade hardball .45

BIG advantage of the stuff springs are that it will even set off rifle primers, if needed.

Produces 0.014" Cu indent on the government crusher gage! Driven protrusion is .040"

[reddog81]

They're neat little guns. I've got a couple S&W's 38's and a 32. For the 38's I use a swaged 148 grn hollow base wadcutter. I like the hollow base design because in theory it should expand to what ever size the bore might be. With these old guns the cylinder throat and bore measurements can vary from gun to gun and manufacturer to manufacturer.

I can see why they were so popular at the turn of the century for personal protection. The size of the little 32's makes a J Frame revolver look huge.

[justashooter]

Years ago I had some split neck 38 special cases that cut down nicely to 38 S&W length. Loaded with HBWC and about 2.5 unique they were functional in a top break Iver J.

[dtknowles]

Years ago I had some split neck 38 special cases that cut down nicely to 38 S&W length. Loaded with HBWC and about 2.5 unique they were functional in a top break Iver J.

I used cut down 38 spcl cases until I got some proper cases.

Tim

[Reverend Al]

In my humble opinion the Webley has to be the best of the break open design in 38 S&W ...

Who would bother with an old Webley top break? Well ... actually I guess I do ... when the right one comes along ...

:bigsmyl2:

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Webley%20Mark%20III%20380%20revolver%20001%20Large _zpsxajuxxf8.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Webley%20Mark%20III%20380%20revolver%20001%20Large _zpsxajuxxf8.jpg.html)

[quail4jake]

173838]173837173832
S&W day, 800 rounds later...this pose!

[Drm50]

I've had quite a few of them, always shot them at least once, never know when you might get
one that shoots, ain't found it yet. Seem to always have a few H&R & IJs laying around, have no
interest in them at all.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Who would bother with an old Webley top break? Well ... actually I guess I do ... when the right one comes along ...

:bigsmyl2:

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Webley%20Mark%20III%20380%20revolver%20001%20Large _zpsxajuxxf8.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Webley%20Mark%20III%20380%20revolver%20001%20Large _zpsxajuxxf8.jpg.html)


That one looks extremely right. The .455 is large, but the .38 is just as small and light as a S&W, and an old civilian version is likely to have a better trigger pull than the military versions.


In my humble opinion the Webley has to be the best of the break open design in 38 S&W I have a few I.J break open that i do not trust to shoot.

The pressure in a break-open revolver isn't, except against formidable leverage, trying to rotate the barrel open. It is trying to force it forward. Greener said more than a hundred years ago (around the time they perfected the double shotgun) that you can safely hold a shotgun closed with the locking system inoperable. I wouldn't like to try it with every gun and every load (which means any gun or any load), but it does illustrate this point.

The key to the strength of the Webley is hidden by the stirrup catch. The little tenon on top of the frame contacts the rear of the mortice on the topstrap into which it fits. This contact, although at an oblique angle, is what bears the pressure, and the stirrup simply prevents the camming action of that obliquity from bending the topstrap upwards. I have seen Webleys with the cylinders cracked by overpressure, with no indication of the tenon or stirrup failing.

It is a pity if the Iver Johnson revolver becomes unsafe through wear, as I think it was a rather good one for moderate loads, far superior to the cheapest on the market. The action is extremely good, being copied from a favourite of mine, the French M1873 Chamelot-Delvigne which at one time was undoubtedly the commonest revolver in the world, and pretty good work for a designer born in 1798. The hand and "Famous Safety Lifter (black in my drawing) have a single spring well protected between them, and not rubbing on its slot like the cheaper revolvers do. An improvement on the French original is the prolongation of the hammer lifter to form a transfer bar, eliminating the need for a rebounding hammer. Very slight bevelling of the rear of the firing-pin and the top of the hammer lifter would probably smoothen the DA pull.

[Earlwb]

I still have a old H&R top break in 38 S&W caliber. But it is worn and likely unsafe to shoot. When I cock the hammer back, the cylinder still moves around quite a bit. I expect the lead shavings from the bullets would make it dangerous for anyone standing off to the sides. But it makes for a nifty display piece though.


173842

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Indeed it does. There is a pretty fair chance that nothing is at fault except the hand spring, which I think would be crimped into a slot in the hand, and easy to replace.

[Earlwb]

Thanks for that information. I'll check it out more closely the next time I take it out of the case.

[quail4jake]

Nifty! I really like the way you've displayed it, the ammo box and worn peace dollar set it off nicely. Inexpensive H&Rs and I-Js are often derided as poorly made and unsafe but my experience has been different. Reasonable loading and repairing loose closure and poor timing will usually bring 'em back to specs; I have an I-J .32 that hits dead on at 25 yards and groups within 4"...it's also in like new condition. Your H&R looks nice but I agree that if you don't have good alignment with minimal play at full cock it's probably better no to fire it. Adjusting the hand and spring will probably bring it back into register but that is usually done best by TIG welding the tip of the hand to bring it beyond its needed length then filing to fit until the sear will just engage as the cylinder notch tightens against the bolt. A good finish is to harden and temper the hand to the same as the cylinder ratchet, which may be more than the original manufacturer did! I'm probably over thinking it...nice piece!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks for that information. I'll check it out more closely the next time I take it out of the case.

The second most likely possibility is that the tip of the hand is worn, and skidding off the ratchet. A worn ratchet on the cylinder is a lot worse, but the hand gets six times as much wear as each of the points on the ratchet.

It can indeed be welded, but an alternative is to notch it and silver solder in a piece of high speed steel toolbit of about 1/16in. square, which will stay hard. I don't know if this revolver has the spring crimped into a slot in the hand, but if it does the hand needs to be annealed at that point, or it might break as you tighten the crimp.

[quail4jake]

Great advice, I really like all this "watch repair" - like work...I just wish I could see it the way I used to!

[Earlwb]

Thanks, I was thinking that it was odd that the revolver looks to be in really good shape. it doesn't appear to have been used much at all. But it may have come from the factory a little loose. Later after many years maybe the hand spring got more weak. So poor fitting at the factory and a weak spring makes it look like it is really worn down.

[Reverend Al]

Yeah ... sometimes it's hard to turn them down since they usually very reasonably priced. I bought a batch of 20 misc. top break and solid frame "pocket" guns from an estate a couple of years ago. It took me about a week to work my way through them and give them all the first decent cleaning they'd probably had in about 30 years! This is just part of the batch of guns ...

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Misc/Part%20way%20through%20sorting%20and%20cleaning%20 guns%20001%20Large_zpsvzzd6w4s.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Misc/Part%20way%20through%20sorting%20and%20cleaning%20 guns%20001%20Large_zpsvzzd6w4s.jpg.html)

[Reverend Al]

There were a few interesting ones in the batch though ... like this European made 5.5 Velo Dog calibre revolver ...

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Misc/Arizmendi%20Puppy%206mm%20Velo%20Dog%20013%20Large _zpsvuunnt0n.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Misc/Arizmendi%20Puppy%206mm%20Velo%20Dog%20013%20Large _zpsvuunnt0n.jpg.html)

[Reverend Al]

And a "Kolb Baby Hammerless" in .22 Short ... missing it's spur trigger ...

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Misc/Kolb%20Baby%20Hammerless%20.22%20Short%20007%20Lar ge_zpsqegai8et.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Misc/Kolb%20Baby%20Hammerless%20.22%20Short%20007%20Lar ge_zpsqegai8et.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I would suspect that some of these small revolvers were abused, uncleaned, and spent their lives under a sweaty armpit or stuffed down somebody's trousers, while others were placed in a drawer and never touched in a few decades. Few firearms run to such a wide range in condition.

[dsbock]

I still have a old H&R top break in 38 S&W caliber. But it is worn and likely unsafe to shoot. When I cock the hammer back, the cylinder still moves around quite a bit. I expect the lead shavings from the bullets would make it dangerous for anyone standing off to the sides. But it makes for a nifty display piece though.


In addition to the advice above, your H&R may also be missing the quill spring. If you take off the cylinder, there should be a small flat spring along the top of the cylinder quill. These often broke and allowed the cylinder to rotate freely.

As was said, very nice display.

My H&R
173962

Iver Johnson Hammer gun
173963

Iver Johnson Hammerless
173964

I have one more, but no photo handy.

David

[Earlwb]

A missing quill spring. That is a good possibility too. Thanks for that information. I have a lot of things to check out.

173994

I still have a couple of old beat up and worn .22 Velo-Dog revolvers too.

173995