New Member with question

[Huntryx]

I have been shooting muzzleloaders for years, both rifle and shotgun, inline and caplock. Always bought my bullets, though I do reload for rifles, shotguns and handguns. I just found a T/C Cherokee in good shape for less than an arm and a leg, in .45 caliber, and decided to cast my own bullets for it. Seems like a good hobby for my impending retirement next year. So, tell me if I am on the right track: I bought a Lee R.E.A.L bullet mold, and also a Lyman Maxi Ball mold. Bought a small Lee furnace and dipper, watched some You Tube. I am getting the feeling that CRBs in this caliber are just not enough medicine for deer, my primary target. Will 70g of either Triple seven or Pyrodex do the job? Expertise, please??

[dondiego]

Try the cast round ball and the REAL. 70 grains of powder and a cast ball can kill. Choose the one that is most accurate.

[bedbugbilly]

Welcome to the forum! You'll enjoy it here!

A well placed 45 RB will get the job done. dondiego gives good advice on trying both RB and the REAL/Maxi - see which shoots the best for you out of that particular gun. Practice at different distances so you can make a we'll placed shot. The problems, most people practice at 25, 50, 100 yards, etc. I've never seen a deer pace off a distance and stand at exactly 50 or 100 yards so they can be shot accurately. :-)

Enjoy the new smoke pole and have fun!

[rodwha]

A RB will often be found just under the hide and well mushroomed under 50-75 yds. After about 75 yds it usually gives complete passthroughs. I figure the ball isn't deforming as much keeping it from rapidly loosing velocity. And some people have shot and killed their deer at 125 yds or a bit more, though I doubt I'd be that confident knowing the drop but more importantly the drift.

[bubba.50]

moulds for muzzleloaders are calculated for the projectile to be the proper diameter and weight when using pure soft lead. lead with any hardeners in it will come out slightly larger diameter and slightly lighter and can be a bear if not near impossible to load. so when you get to casting, be sure to use pure soft lead or as close to it as you can find.

and don't underestimate the abilities of a 45cal roundball.

and also, a big welcome to the forum.

[telebasher]

Remember that pure lead round balls killed everything that walked or crawled this earth for centuries. If you place them correctly they still will !

[Jniedbalski]

What twist is it? I have the lee real boolits in .050 call in two waights and like each of them. I also have there improved mini and like that one a lot also

[Squeeze]

Ive shot several deer with a .45 cherokee. 1-48 twist. I used a roundball over 60 grains If I remember. The gun just dont fit me, and punches me in the cheek every time. I really only use it with .32 barrel anymore. The deer were all close range. Under ~80 yards, and all went down quick. I never shot conicals from it, and after I got a few with it, ( I think in 2 seasons) I never did much with the .45 barrel anymore.

[rfd]

a .45 patched ball will get the job done on deer, IF you hit 'em in a good spot. the REAL will do much better because of its nearly double the projectile weight (the .45 REAL comes in either 200 or 250 grain weights).

with regards to casting, it's a hoot to make yer own ammo. any furnace smaller than 8# capacity, and that lee dipper, may be somewhat more cumbersome than a larger furnace and a better dipper such as a lyman or rcbs. i do find those lee aluminum ball and REAL moulds to work good 'n' fast. you can get a lee combo mould, with a cavity each for ball and REAL. aside from the components, lots to learn about casting .... lotsa fun, too!

[jimb16]

I shoot a .50 cal. flintlock and use a round ball with 75 gr. of 3F powder. While I limit my shots to around 65 yards, I've never lost a deer that I hit with that load.

[True.grit]

Welcome to the dark side. 45 cal rb will work nicely for deer out as far as you are comfortable to shot. That Cherokee is a very nice rifle just don't try to over load it. 70 grs is about all I would put down the pipe. I like 2f in my 45 cal flinter hawkin. I run 60 grs and am happy with it out to 100 yrds. Welcome aboard. TG

PS, stay away from pyrodex. Black powder is the only way to go .

[w5pv]

Have fun

[Huntryx]

Thanks for the advise folks. My other BP rifles are both .50s, and I always wanted to try out a .45 so when this Cherokee appeared I grabbed it. T/C Manual shows 80g max load with maxi balls. It sounds as if 1) I shouldn't be discounting the RB and 2) I should start at 60g and work my way up. There is fun in my future! Bubba, I get it about the soft lead. It's funny there's a lot of anti-.45 stuff out there, saying the caliber is inadequate for deer. I knew it was bunk, even the stuff on Chuckhawk's. It was big enough for a lot of our forebearers, deer haven't changed ( in size at least!)

[dondiego]

I'd start at 50 grains and work up. Use real 3F black.

[bubba.50]

80 grains will beat you & that sweet little gun both to death. around 40 for a plinkin' load & up to 60 for huntin' should do all you need as long as you keep ranges reasonable to the caliber.

and a lot of those early guns were around 30 to 40 caliber. I read somewhere that O'l Dan'l or Davey(can't remember which one) used to practice loadin' with a pea as a kid 'cause lead was precious then as it is now.

luck to ya, enjoy yer gun & have a good'en, bubba.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, it's been over 10 years since I shed myself of my .50 & .54 cal frontstuffers in favor of a .45 (I have both a Cherokee & a Seneca, like the Seneca better), but there's been no difference in taking deer each one of those years.

The real reason for staying with lighter loads in both Cherokee & Seneca rifles is that they are made with slimmer/thinner parts than the T/C Hawken/Renegade line - slimmer barrels, slimmer stocks, down-sized locks, etc, etc - and heavy loads will shortly crack the now unobtainium stock.

I've been using T/C Maxi-Hunter conical boolits over 70gr of FFFg Holy Black in my T/C .45's for these 10 years, with good accuracy & better results on deer.


.

[mooman76]

Since you already have the moulds, might as well give them a try and see how they do. Some find a over powder wad with the Lee real helps with accuracy and some find they shoot fine without. If you want deeper penetration with the RB just add something to the lead to make it a little harder or just use straight WWs. Some opt for more penetration over flattening out more. Have fun with it, that's what it's all about.

[rodwha]

My Lyman requires a felt wad. My first shot with one without a war was a foot left and low, and had keyholed. My next two with a wad were just below the bull and nearly touching.

[sharps4590]

Lots of folks been dousin' on the 30-30 for 50 years too and it still works just fine, just like the 45.

A round ball kills all out of proportion to its paper ballistics.

[Huntryx]

"Stay away from Pyrodex" -- why? Real BP is hard to get around here. Also, what to use for a lube that will stay put on the maxi balls?

[rfd]

"Stay away from Pyrodex" -- why? Real BP is hard to get around here. Also, what to use for a lube that will stay put on the maxi balls?

for most of us it's Impossible to find bp locally, so we all order it out online. more than a few good sources. black powder is truly best.

i use the same lube i use for my bpcr cast bullets - gato feo - easy to find the components and make - by weight, 1 part mutton tallow (dixie gun works), 1 part paraffin wax (gulf), 1/2 part pure beeswax, double boiler melted, poured into a milk carton or muffin tins. makes an excellent patch lube as well.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, I've long used (35 years) Ox-Yoke Bore Butter 1000+ lube for conicals and on patches, besides seasoning my barrel with it.

Since I started using the BB, after shooting, my rifles are easily cleaned with a few patches loaded with Moose Milk (T/C No.13 bore cleaner), followed by dry patches, then a last patch loaded with BB.

No rust (ever), no fuss, no muss.


.

[rodwha]

I, too, use Gatofeo's lube on my pistol and rifle conicals. Works great and is a traditional recipe used on outside lubricated bullets from long ago.

[mooman76]

"Stay away from Pyrodex" -- why? Real BP is hard to get around here. Also, what to use for a lube that will stay put on the maxi balls?

Some people seem to have trouble with Pyrodex to point of cursing at it or they just here that and pass it on. It perplexes me because I have used it for many years with no problems or complaints and I have quite a few different MLs and it works good in all of them. I'm sure for some there is a valid reason because it doesn't seem to be isolated to just a few but allot more use it just fine. I suspect it's something in the load technique or somewhere along them lines.

[pietro]

.

My reason stems from experiencing many odd misfires in my caplock rifles loaded with Pyrodex - which issue hasn't reared it's ugly head since I switched to Holy Black.

However, I have to say that I've never experienced any such issues when using Pyrodex in my C&B revolvers - go figure........


.

[rodwha]

I was given several bottles of Pyrodex by my father. It worked fine. But after using Triple 7 and Olde Eynsford BP I don't care for the fouling Pyrodex leaves. But my other problem is that I use my powder universally between my pistols and rifle and have them for hunting. Pyrodex isn't as powerful and I don't want to be handicapped.

[OnHoPr]

Either one will kill deer, but the TC might give you a little better BC to fight Nov and Dec winds at a 100 yd shot. Hit them in the boiler room and you should not have any problems. Shoot which ever one is more accurate. It depends on you and your shoulder anywhere from 60 up to max whichever groups the best unless max starts to fracture the stock where the barrel sits in it.. Remember different lubes and different powders will perform differently with the different projectiles. It does take experimentation with all the components to acquire good groups. Your twist might like the compact or shorter boolit style over the longer styles, just go to the range.

I have used all kinds of powders except for the holy and Blackhorn with a number of projectiles. I generally use PDex select, but others have performed well enough for 100 yd shootin. One thing I did happen to notice in MY rifle is that it seemed to like conicals and PP boolits at low to mild loads with American Powder. This also gave a pretty minor clean swab out between shots.

[triggerhappy243]

I gotta say now, All I ever used was Pyrodex. And yes, I had hangfires. Then I learned a little tip from a Holy black shooter. Dump the pyrodex down the bore. Now with the heel of your hand, thump the side of the rifle on the opposite side of the lock. This makes a little powder roll into the passage where the cap flame runs thru. From that point on, I Never EVER, Had another hang fire. And I never even fire a cap prior to loading now either. Go figure.

[rfd]

i don't mess with caplocks but friends who do all seem to have no real problems with bp subs in the barrel. this is NOT the case with flintlocks that really do demand using real bp down the tube and in the pan. settling in the barrel powder with a few hand thumps to the stock or barrel is quite apropos for all muzzleloaders, regardless of their ignition system.

[rodwha]

My Lyman Deerstalker with a 1:48" twist shoots the longer 320 grn REAL quite well with 70 grns of 3F.

It's never had a hangfire or FTF and I've never tapped on the side of my rifle.

[triggerhappy243]

If I understand grain size of real b.p. 3F is a bit finer than Pyrodex. The grains of powder would more easily find their way into that flame passage?

[mooman76]

Pyrodex come in two grades. P for pistol and is equivalent to fff and RS for rifle/shotgun which is like ff. I always have packed mine good when loading and doing so probably forces some into the powder drum. It might be the difference why I've never had a problem like some others have.

[Huntryx]

Well, I couldn't come up with FFG, so I went with Pyrodex Select RS. Put 70g behind a 255 Maxi Ball; then tried 60g behind a RB; then 60 behind a 240g R.E.A.L. Bullet (which was one of the first I cast successfully!). I have to say that 70g kicks plenty, probably due to the light weight of the gun. Slammed me in the face! I routinely shoot 85-90g in my Renegade 50 with little discomfort. The 60g load is much more pleasant to shoot from this gun. Accuracy will come soon, I hope, as I adjust sights, etc. I am also hoping the 60g load will do with the Lee bullet for deer.

[OnHoPr]

Oh yea, 60 gr with the Lee Real will work. Even though I try numerous powders I usually use the PDex Select. Though, in MY RIFLE, when I tried the PP 440 gr Lee and TC Maxis with the lower powder charges of 60 to 80 gr American Powder seemed to shoot the non saboted conicals better and much cleaner.

[rfd]

why deal with recoil punishment? if whitetails are the primary hunt critter, i'd forgo a maxi/REAL and just use a good fit of patch 'n' ball and 70gns of 3f or whatever sub stuff ya have. a speedy .440 or .445 ball will more than get the job done, sans a shoulder/face smacking.

[rodwha]

According to Hodgdon's site that PRB load is going roughly 1772 fps giving 893 ft/lbs at the muzzle. Zeroed at 100 yds (at 900 ft above sea level with 10 mph crosswind) it is 1.3" with 0.7" drift at 25 yds, 2.3" with 2.8" drift at 50 yds, 2.1" with 6.5" of drift at 75 yds and 0.0" with 11.5" of drift at 100 yds.

It's mostly wind that might be your problem out to 100 yds. Pretty descent to 75 yds with just a ball.

[OnHoPr]

If you look at any of my post in the last four years concerning the PBR you will see that I PRAISE the PRB "In it's realm". It is a very deadly projectile. Then comes certain scenario realities. If you are in a less than stellar game rich environment where it may be hard pressed to see a doe in the season let alone something with horns and even 20% of your possible shooting scenarios go past 75 yds you may be kicking yourself and the end of the season. The PBR will shoot 100 yards or better in calm wind conditions. Add the morning and evening thermals even of calm days besides the November winds of the average of 10 to 15 mph can play havoc on the ballistics of a PRB at those guesstimate 100 yard woods ranges that might be 113 yards in reality. That is where the conical type projectiles having slightly better BCs gives an advantage. Now if you are sitting on an oak hilltop flat with a bunch of white pine saplings all over but can still see 125 yd in alleys, but your average shot is going to be in between 50 & 75 yds and a deer comes up to feed on acorns @ 80 yd from you when the thermals at 4:45 are kicking up and the deer starts moseying away from you and all you get is a 45 degree raking shot at 94 yds the conical will give you a better chance of harvesting that deer, especially if it has bigger size.

[Huntryx]

I love that description......I've never shot a deer out more than 60 yards, so maybe the PRB is for me in this gun.

[rfd]

I love that description......I've never shot a deer out more than 60 yards, so maybe the PRB is for me in this gun.

with a .45 - definitely a good way to go, and what's worked for centuries during quite demanding times.

[OverMax]

CRBs in this caliber are just not enough medicine for deer, Oh really?

Glad to hear your retirement is close at hand. Congratulations >you'll love the feeling of being free to do as you like ev~ery day.

Why fellers feel the need to shoot bullets & Maxi's out of a traditional rifle that was originally designed to shoot Patched Ball leaves me wondering at times why they bought a traditional rifle in the first place. Anywho.
Don't underestimate that little 126 gr. 45 cal ball. Near 2000 fps with close to a 1000 lbs on energy at muzzles end. Such patched ball is no slouch when thumping on the rib cage of a 130-160 thin skinned deer at 50-75-or-100 yards away.
I happen have a 50 54's and a 58 big bore here. The one that goes afield with me for my deer hunting year after year. My little Hawken percussion capped 45. The reason I prefer it. Its got the best accuracy of all its Brothers with only 78-80 grs of 2FFG Gorex always knocking its deer solidly to the ground.
As far as your use of Pyrodex. It should preform as well as Black when measured the same. Triple 777 is better suited for inline use due to its need of a hotter ignition than Standard #11 caps provide and is suggested on Hodgdons Web site its use requires a 15-% reduction in volume when compared to B/P loading's.
(see Hodgon warning below)
Keep in mind Pyrodex use as well as other substitute powders promote barrel corrosion more so than Black

Per Hodgdon site: Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%

[rfd]

Oh really?

Glad to hear your retirement is close at hand. Congratulations >you'll love the feeling of being free to do as you like ev~ery day.

Why fellers feel the need to shoot bullets & Maxi's out of a traditional rifle that was originally designed to shoot Patched Ball leaves me wondering at times why they bought a traditional rifle in the first place. Anywho.
Don't underestimate that little 126 gr. 45 cal ball. Near 2000 fps with close to a 1000 lbs on energy at muzzles end. Such patched ball is no slouch when thumping on the rib cage of a 130-160 thin skinned deer at 50-75-or-100 yards away.
I happen have a 50 54's and a 58 big bore here. The one that goes afield with me for my deer hunting year after year. My little Hawken percussion capped 45. The reason I prefer it. Its got the best accuracy of all its Brothers with only 78-80 grs of 2FFG Gorex always knocking its deer solidly to the ground.
As far as your use of Pyrodex. It should preform as well as Black when measured the same. Triple 777 is better suited for inline use due to its need of a hotter ignition than Standard #11 caps provide and is suggested on Hodgdons Web site its use requires a 15-% reduction in volume when compared to B/P loading's.
(see Hodgon warning below)
Keep in mind Pyrodex use as well as other substitute powders promote barrel corrosion more so than Black

Per Hodgdon site: Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%

+1 and right on the money.

[OnHoPr]

If you have the REAL & the Maxi why don't you just use up a couple of lbs of powder with them and get dialed in. Just like Bubba50 said, 50 to a touch over 60 grs looking for accuracy will do all you want or a deer needs at the ranges you are considering and pass.

[rfd]

the trad ml .45 TC cherokee caplock with its 1:48 twist and a patched ball powered by pyrodex or 777 is perfectly capable of rendering the OP what she wants - a dead deer inside of 75 yards and easy-on-the-shoulder recoil. deer ain't hogs nor bear. they don't take much ball caliber or energy at reasonable distances to take them down both quickly and ethically with a patched lead ball between of between .390 and .530 in diameter - that's right, even a .40 rifle. been done thataway for centuries. imho. ymmv.

[rodwha]

"Why fellers feel the need to shoot bullets & Maxi's out of a traditional rifle that was originally designed to shoot Patched Ball leaves me wondering at times why they bought a traditional rifle in the first place."

I suppose that depends on the type of traditional rifle in question.

"Triple 777 is better suited for inline use due to its need of a hotter ignition than Standard #11 caps provide..."

I've seen this stated a couple of times over the years. However in the few years I've been doing so I've never experienced it through my Lyman rifle, ROA, or Remington NMA.

"...and is suggested on Hodgdons Web site its use requires a 15-% reduction in volume when compared to B/P loading's..."

The 15% reduction is merely to replicate the velocity you'd normally have had using BP. However this must have either been prior to Swiss (or Olde Eynsford for that matter) or that Swiss just wasn't popular enough as they give very similar velocities compared by volume. There is no need to reduce for safety as many people claim.

"Keep in mind Pyrodex use as well as other substitute powders promote barrel corrosion more so than Black."

Actually Triple 7 is MUCH less corossive than BP, which is less corossive than BP. A fellow tested this by placing three steel plates to a board and placed T7, Pyrodex, and BP and lit them. He left this in his humid garage for 4 days and found the plate with T7 was nearly pristine.

[rodwha]

Scroll down several posts for the link to the test:

http://1858remington.com/discuss/index.php?topic=7457.0