Lead how hard is too hard?

[Tnfalconer]

Guys I'm a little out of the loop on some of this so help me out. I will be shooting heavy lead bullets, really fast. What are the pros/cons to a harder lead? Is foundry lead the hardest? Drawback to using harder lead?

[runfiverun]

it's brittle.
the harder alloy's tend to just break [crack] when you crimp them or drop them on the floor.

if by fast you mean 2400-2700 fps I get there with @ 15 on the bhn scale.
but I opt for flexible and tough over hard.

[NyFirefighter357]

Run, What cal. are you shooting at this speed? 2400-2700 fps

[Digital Dan]

If I ever buy another fishing boat it's going to be called the S.S. Hardcast.

I will openly admit I've never shot such a bullet that exhibited any degree of precision, perhaps that is my fault. I bought them in any case, but there's none tried I'd recommend. Riverfun pretty much nailed it.

Will also suggest that if one is inspired they can run moderately hard home cast at some surprising velocities right out of the gate. A brief excursion in fire forming for a hot headed .22 found 50/50 lino/ww perfectly content at 2800 fps insofar as the bore was concerned. Precision over a 20 shot string @100 was about 2" from a rifle that is typically sub MOA.

Paper..........you can wrap soft lead and make it work wonders in the world of precision and move with alacrity.

Have fun.

[6bg6ga]

I find that bore fit seems to be more important to me than hardness is. If I want to shoot something at over say 1100-1200 fps I'll reach for a jacketed bullet.

[sw282]

l shoot IHMSA silh steel targets in 44 magnum... Quite a few of my fellow shooters CAST also..Most of them are using single shots in 22 Hornet, 32-20, 30-20, 30-30Win, 30 Herrett, 6.5 Ren.. All long skinny cast rifle boolits...They are knocking down 55lb steel rams @200 meters..l have talked to most of them at length...ALL of them shoot plain old wheel weights... NO special alloys... ALL air cooled boolits.. A couple will add a bit of solder to help the mold fill out... 0ne or two guys separate the clip ons from the stick ons.. Most popular are the RCBS silh molds....A few Lymans scattered in...
Bottom Line... No special alloys...No custom designed molds..No fancy water dropping

[runfiverun]

I run some of the 30 cals at the 2400 fps zone [my AR-30 in 308 hovers at 2400] and my 22's closer to 2700.

I do have a purpose built 30 cal rifle I expect to run accurate [1/2-3/4'] groups in the 2650 range.
I have only put about 15 rounds of jacketed stuff down it's barrel but it's pointing towards being a good choice so far.
I need a trigger upgrade, and a stock change to complete the package but it's coming along.

unfortunately the only use for those speeds has been paper poking, steel ringing, and some varmint work.
they are just too fast for the alloy to work properly on big game unless the shots are 100% kept in the soft tissue areas.

[Tnfalconer]

Guys, I will be staying under 2,000 fps for sure but with a 50 caliber conical 750-950g bullet. I am hoping to defeat any nose slump or deformation at those velocities.

[runfiverun]

the best way to do that is by supporting the lead with steel.

man I'm glad it's you soaking up that recoil.
I run my 45-70 a click over 1650 using a 435+gr boolit, and it's about all I want for repetitive shooting.

tell us more about your set-up.
the rifle [type], what you want to do with it, and the caliber/cartridge, I think we can get you going in the right direction.

[gwpercle]

Guys, I will be staying under 2,000 fps for sure but with a 50 caliber conical 750-950g bullet. I am hoping to defeat any nose slump or deformation at those velocities.

How much gun is too much gun ? This just might be it, 950 grain boolit at 1999 fps, sounds like way too much fun for me.

Tell us how this bad boy shoots !
Gary

[Tnfalconer]

I am in the process of building a ruger no.1 in 50-90 sharps explicitly for 1,000 yrd buffalo matches. The molds that I am developing are 750-950 grn and I will be using 1-15 twist barrel ( basically I am building the equivalent of a slow 50-bmg) recoil will be significant for sure but the plan is the get it all together and load until the recoil is too great to shoot repetitively. I am guessing it will be in the 1700-1800 fps range, I have built several this way and that is about where I will end up.

As I go forward with this in reading and past experience it feels like I might run into nose slump or distortion of the bullet at that speed and I want to nip that in the bud. I've heard the BMG cast guys are using about 15 percent with good success but what I am attempting isn't really the main stream so I am trying to pick it all apart and make good decisions on the build. That includes lead selection to start.

[gwpercle]

Foundry type is the hardest , might be too brittle. I would try linotype or monotype alloy first, it won't be as brittle.
I have dropped a piece of foundry type on a concrete floor and it shattered. Way too hard for boolits.
Gary

[runfiverun]

one of the better way's to get there is to water quench low antimony alloy's.

a 3% antimony alloy with about 3/4% tin and a grain refiner [about .25%] such as arsenic or sulpher can be cooked in your oven at 425-f for a whole hour then immediately taken out and dumped into ice water.
this will give you a somewhat malleable alloy that ends up with a bhn of about 28-30.
it's repeatable and consistent from batch to batch.
you just need to have your sizing done before hand, and give them time to settle down and equal out.
about a month to 6 weeks is enough.

[44MAG#1]

The "KISS" principle at first. Cast with a hot mold with W/W alloy and water drop straight from the mold.
If done consistantly they will be hard and Consistant in hardness.
If you need a larger diameter wait for 36 to 48 hours and size so they will be more spring back so a larger bullet from the same die and if not needed sized while they are soft.
If then you want to then experiment with softer one can later do it.
Water Quenched W/W alloy is not very brittle. But can get hard as a brick.
Anything you do in reloading KISS, KISS, KISS, KISS. Unless you then find out KISS won't do it.
Unless you like to piddle around changing things just so you can have something to talk about with the other local reloaders. One does need fodder for conversation.

[John Boy]

To prevent nose slump, tested by Dan Theodore, renowned gun crank: 97.0 / 1.5 / 1.5 : 7 parts pure lead + 3 parts Lyman # 2 : Density = 11.21 gm/cc - Bhn 9.8
Initial test performed using a 8mm x60mm Gredes at 1670 fps

[popper]

You can add 2% copper to COWW (3% Sb) and get upwards of 36 BHN W.D. You will NOT get nose slump or base deformation. Size as soon as dry. 0.5% copper works well too (my normal alloy for 308W @ 2700 fps). They are not brittle but will powder when hitting steel @ 25yds.

[gundownunder]

Popper, I'm curious, How easy is it to get 2% copper into your lead?
I did read a couple of threads on this subject but it all sounded too technical.

[JSnover]

Popper, I'm curious, How easy is it to get 2% copper into your lead?
I did read a couple of threads on this subject but it all sounded too technical.
If it was me, I think I'd look for some babbitt with a high Cu content. One I've heard of was 8% copper, 8% antimoney, 84% tin (may have had a trace of lead). Sounds like it would make some pretty tough boolits and should be easy to add to your pot.

[runfiverun]

Babbit is by far the easiest.

I have got copper into solution by using about 3X the amount of tin for the amount of copper I want the alloy to take.
I used small nips of speaker wire and fluxed the copper in.

Popper has instructions here for exchanging copper for zinc in an alloy using copper sulphate.

I like to just use about 0.3% copper, it's enough to affect the alloy without being too much tin or trouble to cast with.

[bangerjim]

In the past years, it has been proven you do NOT need hard lead as touted by all the "experts" of olde.

I cast, PC and shoot 9-12 for subsonic and ~14-16 for rifle. Again, that is with PC.

No leading, excellence performance. 223-45Colt.

Banger

[44MAG#1]

Again, unless you are someone who just loves complicated things and love to do everything in a complicated way just water quench. Try hard first, and see if simple will do what you want.
Straight W/W or even with a slight amount of tin added and water quenched you WON'T slump the nose.
If by some stretch of the imagination you do please be sure to list the load, velocity and a picture of your shoulder.

[womblrup]

Can´t understand how the speed of 1700-1800fps can be reached within the 50-90sharps pressure limit of 28000psi or 1930bar. Most high BC bullets of 750+ grain are 2.5+ inches long which leaves no room for powder.

[44MAG#1]

"Can´t understand how the speed of 1700-1800fps can be reached within the 50-90sharps pressure limit of 28000psi or 1930bar. Most high BC bullets of 750+ grain are 2.5+ inches long which leaves no room for powder."

Most of us live our lives based on hope. We hope tomorrow will be better than today or not any worse. We hope that we will be better off next year than this year. We hope that the cops won't bust us going 20 MPH over the speed limit when we are going to be late for work. We hope for much. Some are a very optimistic. This velocity level is very optimistic from a normal viewpoint.
Mine, blessed is he who expecteth nothing for he shall not be fooled more likely than not.
To give an example I chronoed a load this morning in my Encore 454 with a sized down rifle bullet and thought the load would be around 1200 FPS from past experience. It clocked 1280. Now if I had expected 1280 it more than likely would have barely made 1180. See I was pleasantly surprised. Not unpleasantly surprised.

[runfiverun]

he is building his loads pressure to the gun not the cartridge.

it's the same thing many of us do with the 7x57 mauser built on rifles that were formerly 270's.
this opens the window from the old 45-K ceiling to the new 60-K pressure.
that's a 25% increase in pressure/velocity availability with no drama involved.

[Tnfalconer]

"Can´t understand how the speed of 1700-1800fps can be reached within the 50-90sharps pressure limit of 28000psi or 1930bar. Most high BC bullets of 750+ grain are 2.5+ inches long which leaves no room for powder."

Most of us live our lives based on hope. We hope tomorrow will be better than today or not any worse. We hope that we will be better off next year than this year. We hope that the cops won't bust us going 20 MPH over the speed limit when we are going to be late for work. We hope for much. Some are a very optimistic. This velocity level is very optimistic from a normal viewpoint.
Mine, blessed is he who expecteth nothing for he shall not be fooled more likely than not.
To give an example I chronoed a load this morning in my Encore 454 with a sized down rifle bullet and thought the load would be around 1200 FPS from past experience. It clocked 1280. Now if I had expected 1280 it more than likely would have barely made 1180. See I was pleasantly surprised. Not unpleasantly surprised.

I guess if I were building it in an antique I would be concerned with your statement here. The fact that I am using smokeless powder in a modern action, seating the bullet barely into the case and throating the barrel to make that possible might have something to do with it but what do I know, I've only done it 100 times successfully. The modern brass available is capable of much higher pressure, for your educational purposes as is the Ruger no.1 action I am using. I guess you would have known that if you had read the posts above or asked.

[Tnfalconer]

I like to wonder sometimes that thought process leads a person to question every aspect unassociated with the question asked. The thread is about lead and it's hardness level required to stop bullet nose slump and distortion. If ya'll would like to talk privately about my choice of rifle, caliber, powder or general thinking and outlook on life, maybe a PM is more appropriate?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This is the advice I'd take.


one of the better way's to get there is to water quench low antimony alloy's.

a 3% antimony alloy with about 3/4% tin and a grain refiner [about .25%] such as arsenic or sulpher can be cooked in your oven at 425-f for a whole hour then immediately taken out and dumped into ice water.
this will give you a somewhat malleable alloy that ends up with a bhn of about 28-30.
it's repeatable and consistent from batch to batch.
you just need to have your sizing done before hand, and give them time to settle down and equal out.
about a month to 6 weeks is enough.

[Tnfalconer]

This is the advice I'd take.

I'm going to try that one for sure. I am going after some harder lead mixtures today from a local source and I'll start playing with the variables.

[44MAG#1]

That still doesn't explain why one would want to go to difficulty to get a hardness that will take the velocity.
Especially when one can water quench and do it.

[Tnfalconer]

That still doesn't explain why one would want to go to difficulty to get a hardness that will take the velocity.
Especially when one can water quench and do it.

I don't want to go to difficulty, I want to achieve it the easiest and most consistent way possible.

[popper]

Sulfur hardening/toughening works but I didn't like the smell or flames. Cu is easier, 1:5 weight ratio between any tin/zinc in the alloy to CuSO4. Let it sit on the melt till white then mix it in real well. Let cool, then throw away all the dust on top - slightly toxic so don't breathe. I assume a long pointy high BC boolit? I'm shooting 2700 from 308W with a lower BC boolit, 165gr. FN 4% Sb, 0 Sn, 0.5% Cu. Backer board at the range is 1" fiberboard & I see different hole dia when shooting different fps loads. I even saw the difference between 1300 fps and 2100 fps with same alloy. I can't prove nose slump or impact. I did try the 2% Cu as an experiment. WD, left an impression in a bar of superhard. They shot fine, 2100 fps. Sulfur works but lead will only take 0.3%. Cu mixes with lead and Sb so you can go to 6% with 7% Sb. Hope that helps show what can be done, do what you need. Yes, I did replace all the Sn in #2 with Cu and it's a good 'sweetener' for alloy. For me the babbitt has too much tin that I find I don't need. Even the 2% Cu cast fine.

[runfiverun]

he is shooting waay the heck over there.
in my world that means consistency and the conscious thought of that consistency every time I pull the trigger.

every time I stepped to the line [especially when money was to be had] I didn't show up with my test loads or the grab bag of bad crimps.

I brought my known tested and tried loads, my gear was in order, and I was mentally prepared.
one minor misstep could cost as much as my house payment.

long range shooting requires that type of preparedness and quality workmanship from step number one.
plus some of us just like to take pride in our work.

[Tnfalconer]

he is shooting waay the heck over there.
in my world that means consistency and the conscious thought of that consistency every time I pull the trigger.

every time I stepped to the line [especially when money was to be had] I didn't show up with my test loads or the grab bag of bad crimps.

I brought my known tested and tried loads, my gear was in order, and I was mentally prepared.
one minor misstep could cost as much as my house payment.

long range shooting requires that type of preparedness and quality workmanship from step number one.
plus some of us just like to take pride in our work.


You said a mouthful there. I have been a sponsored competitive shooter and I'm glad that is behind me. In building a rifle like this that is built for a specific purpose you have to start with all the small simple things, get them right and consistent and move forward. The hardness to start or at least experiment with is just the first step in a long line of steps to get what I want out of this rifle. The end game is to win matches. I don't know a single person that spends the money to show up at a rifle match that doesn't want to win. Some of us are willing to put lots of effort into that aspect and some want to show up with purchased loads and get lucky. I find that if you pay attention to the details and load for the rifle you get "Lucky" a LOT more often.

[44MAG#1]

All that said let me ask. Just because someone is a very big stickler for doing things as accurately as possible does that mean one has to start out with some witches brew of an alloy just to start off complicated just for the ability to be complicated?
Especially if simple will work.
Of course some love to be complicated. Gives a feeling of accomplishment I guess so go for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

my take on it is that in most cases at ANY velocity a hard lead bullet is more usually more accurate then a softer one. The main goal I have in hunting is to put the bullet in the right place. Yes you probably can get by with softer alloys at the ranges cast bullets are used but a bit more accuracy is confidence building and means a lot to me. Ive been around this game for a long time. Have heard all the old wives tales about bullets bumping up to fit a gun and personally if I have a gun that needs this I fix it. Ive shot lots of game with water dropped ww and straight linotype and have NEVER had a single bullet fracture on game. ANY bullet will shatter hitting steel! Now I haven't shot game at 3000fps with a cast bullet and have no need of performance like that but have shot deer with cast bullets to 2000-2400 fps. Not just one either. Ive shot game as big as buffalo with linotype bullets at 1700fps and they did just what they were suppose to do. Ive also been in on a lot of penetration testing and the only hard bullet ive seen fail was at a linebaugh seminar. they were semi wad cutters cast out of water dropped ww from a major cast bullet company. They didn't shatter per say but there noses were shearing off. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe it was the sharp transition from the nose to the shoulder, maybe they were partially cracking coming out of the mold. Ive seen that myself when I was casting for production and not quality because of the mold getting to hot. But bottom line is anyone that tells your that a linotype bullet or water dropped wwout of a handgun shot at a deer is going to fracture has never shot deer with them and most penetration tests ive ran and have been part of are a much more severe test of a bullet then a 100 lb deer.

[44MAG#1]

On the OP's post he said he would be driving the bullets "really fast". Then a few posts down he states velocity will be under 2000 FPS. That is not "really fast".
Of course "really fast" is a relative term and I guess compared to a 45 Colt at 800 FPS a tick under 2000 FPS is "really fast".
Nose slump with any thing near a "relatively hard" alloy will not happen. With WQ/WW OR simIlar alloy the bullets will be more than hard enough.
As I said I want to know how many rounds he fires if he "slumps" the nose of a WQ bullet. If done correctly.
His shoulder won't last long if he "slumps" the nose of a WQ/WW bullet or a similar alloy.
No need to concoct a complicated alloy for aomething that isn't going to happen.

[popper]

2% Cu/3 1/2% Sb/Pb cube. I did try to pound a large blob into a bar but gave up, too much work. Still very malleable & very hot after reshaping. Just showing what Cu in an alloy can do. A few years ago I ried to simulate a slow boolit impact using a 8# maul, steel plate & an overhead full length arm swing. Found out that is NOT very smart - unless you want to get 'shot' in the ankle. Surprise, boolit was smashed but not much as I had expected - after I found it in the back yard.
173742

[runfiverun]

no it doesn't have to be a complicated alloy but it does have to be consistent.
if your using a longer un supported [pointy shaped] nose there is a real possibility of it slumping from the acceleration process.

when shooting at the higher velocity's, launching the boolit smoothly and for a longer period of time is one of my key's to success.
the design of the boolit and it being supported throughout the process is another part.
timing the two together is important also.

earlier I mentioned the velocity's I am getting in different rifles.
I didn't mention that I am using different boolit designs, alloy's, and powder speeds in the various rifles to get there.
matching the alloy to where the boolit is taking the most stress in the process will pay off in the least amount of damage done to it.
not damaging [or re-shaping] the boolit from the mold to the target IS what makes the difference between good groups and EAH [shrug]

with a larger bore, and the longer nose design, he is gonna need to move the boolit forward just about a half inch before accelerating it down the barrel.
he isn't going to stuff a .002 or .003 over sized boolit in the case and let it run up through the leade [getting re-shaped in the process]
what this does is influence the powder burn and the alloy being consistent will allow it's influence to be consistent.
when that is consistent the SD's will be more consistent.
when those are more consistent the vertical stringing will be lessened.
at 100 yds a half inch might not be all that noticeable, at 1,000 yds it is.

[popper]

My Maul test was to see the boolit deformation at the terminal end - public range so don't get to recover any. At 1k ft/# energy (some state's required energy), I have to get 8# moving 11 fps to test, which I can't do. I will state that generally the Cu'd alloy will be more accurate on target due to less deformation on firing and holding together better during flight. Can that be done other ways? Probably. My 308 spins them 200+K RPM.

[Tnfalconer]

I picked up some harder lead mixtures, WW lead, straight foundry and some babbit yesterday to start putting something together. I'll try a little of everything. I'm not locked into a "witches brew" of materials just to do it. I will be testing a little of all. Now then, it is known that larger conical bullets suffer from nose slump at higher velocities. That isn't a guess, it's a fact. They also distort. My questions here are related to preventing that with a proper mixture and hardness from the start.

On a side note: I am looking for sub MOA at 200 yards as my test bed. If it won't do that I will keep developing until it does. I am aware that it doesn't require that to hit a 6ft square piece of steel but for me that is what I require. All of this development is in the interest of wringing every bit of accuracy from components that inherently aren't that accurate. It's going to be a challenge for sure but that's the fun part. Making old codgers and naysayers laugh at the recoil and loading then cry when they see the groups. That's the best part!