KNO3 + Aluminum powder [homemade Blackpowder substitute]?

[AJG]

Anyone has experience with KNO3 + Aluminum powder [homemade Blackpowder substitute]?
Anyone knows if it works making homemade Blackpowder Substitute with KNO3(potassium nitrate) + Aluminum powder?

I failed with classic BP receipt and want to see if KNO3 + Aluminum powder mixed in ball mill will work nice and how smokeless it is for 9mm, 38 spl and 357 Magnum reloads.

[Skipper]

It would be easier to just step in front of a bus.

[lup]

Skipper, any feedback on why this isn't in someone's best interests?

[Tracy]

I would be interested in seeing if anyone has tried KNO3+Al as well. However, I think troubleshooting your BP attempt would be very worthwhile. Without knowing anything else, if you are using a ball mill I would say try a different charcoal. If you are not ball milling, get a ball mill.

Another thing you could try is KNO3+sugar. I did that and it worked first try, even without iron oxide.

[AJG]

have a ball mill (home made). Works fine.

I talked to an chemist and he told me worst Idea is sugar. Has too much oxigen. As well charcoal is bad idea since it did not work for him eigther (local charcoas has too much oxigen). Might work with activated carbon used for cleaning water. As well adding some metallic powder he suggested. I did not have time yet so i ask you.
Meanwhile I started reloading scavenging shotshells for powder and lead for reloading 9mm. Scavenging shotshells at least gets me smokeless powder. Better would be to user Commercial powders but I am located in Southamerica and there powder is not availlable.
If I can duplicate semi smokeless powder with KNO3 (availlable as fertilizer) and Aluminum powder (commercially availlable as well) then I can create my own powder (and do not Need to bring it from the USA).
I figured just to scavenge shotshells since it seemed much safer to me as playing with unstable home made powders and sudden blow somethin up when ball milling did not get same consistency from Batch to Batch and who knows the stability of the "home made powder".

[Skipper]

What you're suggesting is a flash powder mixture. I certainly think that this mix in a ball mill is a very bad idea. Nitrate and carbon ( charcoal ) might work.
Take a look at the reaction products; blasting aluminum oxide, a very abrasive compound through a gun barrel is not a good idea.

[GhostHawk]

I think if you research a bit more you will find that flash powder has less Oomph than holy black, less push. But it has much more speed, will tend to shatter things.

Not what I would choose to put below a lead ball.

And if you put the 2 together in your ball mill and let it run you may just turn your ball mill into an improvised clay-more mine.

I would not do that at all.

Take finely powder KNO3 and Aluminum powder, using very small quantities mix carefully not using anything that can cause a spark.

Used to make firecrackers and reports this is wicked stuff.

I have seen a video of a 1 gallon ziplock bag of this ignited inside an outhouse.

The outhouse vaporizes. Bang, poof, smoke, dust, scraps of lumber, no outhouse.

BE CAREFULL!

[Skipper]

What failed with your black powder trial?

[tja6435]

Your recipe, as has been stated already, is for flash powder. I'd expect your gun to grenade in your hand if you attempted to use the flash powder as a propellant.

[ofitg]

You might want to consider a mixture of KNO3 and sugar - an expedient method of preparation is presented in page 26 of this old Army publication -

http://www.survivalcentral.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/improvised-munitions-army.pdf

One of our forum members - Perotter - has tried this stuff and reports that the performance is comparable to black powder.

A few years back, a similar mixture called "Sannadex" was marketed as a black powder substitute in South Africa.

[rancher1913]

I would be more inclined to follow a recipe from this site that has been tested and retested by all the expert black powder makers here than listen to a local chemist that has been thought to poo poo anything but commercially produced product. the sugar powders have been around for a long time and are proven to work. if you can get the fertilizer and sugar locally and then make your own willow charcoal you have everything needed to make good black powder, if you really don't want to use sugar there has to be a supply of sulfur around somewhere.

[mold maker]

The time-tested formulas and methods discussed on this forum in several threads can be expected to produce Black Powder the equal of commercially available. Adding other ingredients such as aluminum powder will produce what is used for fireworks and have unintended results. Sugar was used to replace the carbon (charcoal) , but not in addition to it.
As in all endeavors, the quality of the powder is directly related to the quality of the ingredients and methods used.
This is rocket science and should be done only by those who thoroughly understand the principals and safety requirements.
Above all, if experimenting, do so only in very small batches to minimize the size of any accidents.
I'm not saying don't try it, but rather learn from other's experience and mistakes. To do otherwise is an invitation for either failure or disaster.

[AJG]

Dear ofitg,

You have awakened my interest in making black powder Substitute.

I took the KNO3 from an open bag of fertilizer (exposed to humidity several months) and yes I tried as well sugar as charcoal Substitute. It never worked well. The burn rate got never quick enough, not even Close to YouTube Videos.

Can you foreward me an receipe for KNO3 and sugar? By the way the link of the Manual does not work (pdf does not load).

[ofitg]

AJG, does this link work for you?

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/IMcomp_zpsvklnwckw.png

[GhostHawk]

I believe this is your problem.

"I took the KNO3 from an open bag of fertilizer (exposed to humidity several months)"

First, start with real, pure KN03. Not some ammonium nitrate that has been exposed to weather.
There are good locations to find this where it is not expensive. Also I believe that many tree root pellets are essentially KNO3, some with a lye coating, some without.

But if you want a good product, start with good materials.

The only time I ever bought any I used Ebay and it made perfectly acceptable rc candy, ie Rocketfuel.
Also was a great smoke producer.

Pair that up with some good charcoal and I suspect you will have a better result.

[AJG]

I managed to open the pdf file.

However there are Posts who say KNO3+SUGAR IS NEVER WORKING FOR RELOADING. So I wonder if homemade blackpowder is really working for 38 spl 357 mag and 9mm. Or if it is a "Internet lie from ninja commandos on Internet".

[Skipper]

KNO3:

http://www.clayartcenter.net/~clayar5/content/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10012

[Red River Rick]

.......Can you foreward me an receipe for KNO3 and sugar? By the way the link of the Manual does not work (pdf does not load).

65% KN03 and 35% Glucose = Rocket candy.

RRR

[ofitg]

AJG, did you research "Sannadex"? You have to be sure that you are using potassium nitrate, not ammonium nitrate.

I doubt that blackpowder (or Sannadex) would give good performance in a small 9mm case.

Here's an interesting video for you - Philippinos loading a homemade gun with the heads of safety matches -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDeh9QsbTI

The match heads have a mixture of potassium chlorate (in the range of 40-50% KClO3) - but the Philippinos included the short pieces of wood inside the mixture, which would "dilute" the effect.

If you scrape the powder off the wood, the powder will be significantly stronger than blackpowder.

[kennyz]

AJG, did you research "Sannadex"? You have to be sure that you are using potassium nitrate, not ammonium nitrate.

I doubt that blackpowder (or Sannadex) would give good performance in a small 9mm case.

Here's an interesting video for you - Philippinos loading a homemade gun with the heads of safety matches -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFDeh9QsbTI

The match heads have a mixture of potassium chlorate (in the range of 40-50% KClO3) - but the Philippinos included the short pieces of wood inside the mixture, which would "dilute" the effect.

If you scrape the powder off the wood, the powder will be significantly stronger than blackpowder.

heres the deal.i have made bp two different ways.mill it with kno3 sulfur and charcoal and the cia method where you heat the kno3 in water to light boil and then add the sulfur and charcoal stir it all together and mix in some denatured alcohol stir and let cool when cool squeeze through rag to get the moisture out and then granulate. i prefer to ball mill for a min of 3hrs rather than the cia method.now the charcoal.charcoal as well as other ingredients need to be fine as dust when introduced in the mill for best results.hardwood char makes good bp,pine and balsa also make very good bp. The charachteristics of the burning wood carry on through the charcoal heres an example of burning speed. hardwood ok.pine faster.and balsa extremely fast not saying that hardwood wont make good bp but it needs to be milled longer.make sure you have good quality kno3 and not ammonium nitrate.whan milling you want your jar at least half full of brass or lead only nothing else that could cause a spark and do not fill the mill with comp as it needs to roll around and get smasher into the other ingredients if you use this method and your bp is not satisfactory you need to mill longer.If you get to the point where your bp is satisfactory (poof when u light it) then you will wanna press pucks and granulate to the size you want.it sounds difficult but it is not

[kennyz]

oh yeah i forgot if i was gonna make something with kno3 and alum i sure wouldnt want it lit by my face .stick to the original bp ingredients and you will succeed maybe not right away but you will.Oh and save the alum for something cool like making stars or comets

[ofitg]

Kennyz, that's a fairly good overview - I have made BP using the "Chinese" precipitate method - only the bare minimum of water, no alcohol, and the water is evaporated out of the sludge (instead of being squeezed out)- therefore no KNO3 is lost. It worked OK for the type of charcoal I can make with local wood, and I never had any need to compress/puck/granulate the stuff.

However, we don't know AJG's situation - there's no guarantee he can obtain KNO3, or willow - and even if he can master the art of producing "commercial equivalent" BP, it would make a very anemic load in the 9mm case.

[kennyz]

oh yeah i almost forgot when you light your bp on a piece of paper to test it should poof with no debris left on the paper.by all means do not use anything besides kno3 sulfur and charcoal in your bp EVER that is your warning.pot chlorate is very potent and unstable and very incompatable with many things.oh and save the alum for making cool stuff like stars and comets

[ofitg]

People around the world have been using match-heads (KClO3 compound) as an expedient propellant since before we were born....

But I do agree with kennyz on the aluminum.

[kennyz]

People around the world have been using match-heads (KClO3 compound) as an expedient propellant since before we were born....

But I do agree with kennyz on the aluminum.
yes,but match heads have potassium chlorate and antimony sulfide in them.the two together are heat,shock and friction senstive.not agood choice for the recoil in guns

[bpatterson84]

I would continue to try to experiment with actual BP production, lots of good info out there. KNO3 and AL....dont do it, pressures are going to be scary. KNO3 and Sucrose? Works fine and is very stable with pressure, but very low impulse, I used to make rocket motors with it. Also remember, it's very hygroscopic, so mix, load, and use that day.....or it might turn to mud ;-)

[ofitg]

Kennyz, have you tried it?

[ofitg]

I would continue to try to experiment with actual BP production, lots of good info out there. KNO3 and AL....dont do it, pressures are going to be scary. KNO3 and Sucrose? Works fine and is very stable with pressure, but very low impulse, I used to make rocket motors with it. Also remember, it's very hygroscopic, so mix, load, and use that day.....or it might turn to mud ;-)

Sannadex was noted to be hygroscopic. But the shooters in South Africa gave it good reviews.

EDIT - found some more info on Sannadex -

http://www.whitesmoke.co.za/powwow/viewtopic.php?p=3703&sid=6e82e53647f6d666350a4ba2a0e335f4

Reported to be 63% KNO3, 35% Sugar (sucrose or dextrose), and 2% Iron Oxide.

The factory milled the dry ingredients to 150-250 microns in size, then incorporated them by heating to 130-150 degrees Celcius for some unspecified period of time.

[perotter]

I would continue to try to experiment with actual BP production, lots of good info out there. KNO3 and AL....dont do it, pressures are going to be scary. KNO3 and Sucrose? Works fine and is very stable with pressure, but very low impulse, I used to make rocket motors with it. Also remember, it's very hygroscopic, so mix, load, and use that day.....or it might turn to mud ;-)

I've made and used several pounds of KNO3/Sugar powder and it isn't all that hygroscopic. After making it in 2.5 lbs batches it was good for several months and chronied the same. I also only made it in the summer and just let it air dry.

As far as power, it showed in a Dutch Beumont to be 15-25 fps slower than the listed BP military loads and using few grains of powder(lower density and non-balloon head cases).

Also, the impulse that is used for calculating a rocket fuel isn't directly related to

[Tracy]

I have also made potassium nitrate/sugar propellant and found it to work ok. More difficult to ignite than BP. I did not add iron oxide; doing so is supposed to make it easier to ignite. Slightly less powerful than homebrew BP, and requires a reasonably heavy projectile to make it work. It didn't work with just a wad.
Doesn't seem very hygroscopic at all.

IMO, OP should concentrate on making better black powder. Make his own charcoal and experiment with different woods. Perhaps make a better ball mill and/or milling media too; not knowing what he currently uses.

I would like to see what careful addition of aluminum powder to decent black powder will do in something like a NAA cap and ball revolver or a 9mm cartridge. But someone who is not yet able to make workable BP should not even think of experimenting with metal powders yet, IMHO.

[salpal48]

. I am not One To advise to anyone On things That they do. . Generally The end Result In Playing with these Thing are Twofold. Killing Yourself or worst . Burning Your Place Down. Maybe Both
. Just remember that famous Saying " Stupid Is as Stupid Does".

[TCLouis]

I'm thinking way back and I seem to remember rocket motors with that formula. . . .

Come to think of it we never found that last one we launched.

Considering the possibilities we were not about to go asking around either.

[john.k]

A lot of the one time posters on do it yourself forums have fails because el presidente is way smarter than they are.What they think is KNO3 is actually reduced with carbonate and filler,what they think is sulfur is also 15% inert filler.Its a bit disconcerting how most of them delete all their posts and disappear?.....I also note when i buy bulk metal powders,the docket says "non reactive grade".

[Mr_Sheesh]

If you read that improvised manual, you can make your own KNO3 from barnyard etc. dirt; If you can't get that where you live then you're in a truly BAD way. It's hard work, sure; Easier to buy the chemicals from a ceramics place or buy stump remover that's made from KNO3, sure. Or buy from a fireworks place. But KNO3 is never unobtanium, you can ALWAYS get it, that's just 1500s chemistry, dirty and messy but it works...

[rancher1913]

I followed the sticky in muzzle loading on making black powder and my first batch tests better than goex and on par with swiss, the die that fly sells for compressing the meal really does the trick. If I can read the sticky and make good powder, anybody can.