Swiss 1911 enroute! Who here has one?

[kawasakifreak77]

So I got an e-mail from Classic saying they dropped the prices on their G11 rifles to $299... So now I have one coming! Considering bottom of the barrel Mosins are almost fetching that now, I couldn't resist getting another fine Swiss rifle.

I've already got two K31s, one original & one getting cut down & threaded for my suppressor. I read a few places that the G11s are even more accurate & have a slicker action than the K31... I'm not sure how thats even possible but I suppose time will tell!

It will be nicer for cast I've read as the throat is longer in the G11 & I will have a proper place to mount my 1914 sawback bayonet. :D

So who here has one? Tell me about it!

[bouncer50]

I have a 1911 and 3 k-31 one 1889 and a 1878 model. My 1911 is more accurate then my k-31 Every Swiss rifle I have ever shot is accurate they are more of a target rifle. Even my 1878 41 Swiss is a tack driver with cast lead loads. My opinion the Swiss rifle is the best buy for the money in surplus rifles. In todays money to build one I would guess 1000 to 1500 hundred dollars.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've got one 1911 short rifle and two of the K-31s. All very accurate. Used to have a full length 1911 but sold it. Still have the amazing saw tooth bayonet. All great rifles!

[Pb4me]

I have an 1896/11 which means it was reworked with an added pistol grip in 1911. Mine was made in 1905. I traded a buck knife for it in the 80's because someone cut the stock off halfway down the barrel. I searched many places for many years trying to find a stock. While on the Swiss rifle forum, I found out about Frank Von Binnendijk in Voorburg in the Netherlands. Bought the stock and hardware that I needed to make it a complete rifle. Also ordered a taller front sight so you don't have to aim about two feet low at a hundred yards. There's a lifetime of info on these things on the Swiss rifle forum. I've had a lot of fun hand loading for it and also shooting Wolf factory ammo I lucked into. Haven't shot cast out of it yet but that's coming up too. I've also formed brass from Winchester .284 brass just because it was laying around the shop. It worked fine but I would recommend sticking with factory brass. The Wolf factory 174 grain fmj ammo shot 2467, 2504 and 2509 FPS for three rounds. These rifles are so heavy they shoot very mild. Reminds me of shooting our M96 Swede. And regular 30 caliber bullets are what everyone uses but the Swiss does have a tight bore. Swiss military ammo with the silver color bullet and in the small white boxes shot 2614, 2592 and 2651 FPS for three rounds. Looking up the year of manufacture is easy on that site. And of course, look under the buttplate to see if the Swiss soldier that carried it left his info there. Good luck with it and enjoy.

[hpbear101]

173509I have one that I got from Classic last year, it is in exceptional condition. I shoot mostly cast in it, so far this is my best group at 50yds, .68", Lasercast .310 170 FNGC, with 2400 powder. I don't have any other Swiss rifles yet but would like to pick up a K31 and a vetterli.

[Kraschenbirn]

'Nother 96/11 here...also have a pre-WWII K-31 but that's a different story. Other than the bolt S/N not matching the rest of the gun's numbers, mine appears to pretty much original and, cosmetically, in 'NRA good'...or slightly better condition. My 'standard' load is 29.5 gr. H4895 under a Lee 309-200 (196 gr. from my alloy) in Privi Brass...2" groups off-the-bench @ 100 yds and no problem killing gallon-size milk jugs at 200. As mentioned earlier, you can form brass from .284 Win but it's better to stick with commercial 7.5x55 which is usually available from Graf's. The .284 brass has a slightly smaller rim dia. (.020 or so) and, sometimes, a worn extractor (like mine) will fail to sufficiently engage on a reformed case...leaving the shooter looking to borrow a 32" cleaning rod to tap out the empty.

Bill

[kawasakifreak77]

Thanks everyone! I just realized this might be a great rifle for my new 310-180rf (for the 308) if the throat is long enough..

[kawasakifreak77]

Oh & yeah I have a small pile of reloadable PPU brass, plus six cases of GP11. I'm young & plan on shooting these a lot!

[Texas by God]

I've never had a G11-only 2 K31s. Built like a Swiss watch. Scary accurate with surplus ammo. And I believe the 7.5x55 was the first rimless cartridge made. Enjoy your new rifle! Best, Thomas.

[Czech_too]

If I recall correctly, the minimum range that the sights are regulated for are 300 meters. I found no one who has or makes a taller front sight blade, so at 100 yards my POI was always high. I may build up the height myself some day. I used the NOE K31 mould.

[gwpercle]

In 1968 myself and a buddy , we were 18 and could buy a rifle ( 21 for hand gun) , at the Army Navy Surplus the 1903A3 Springfield's sold for $60.00, the 98 Mausers for $50.00 , the 303 British Enfields for $40.00....we couldn't afford any of those .
But the strange looking and totally unheard of 1911 , 7.5 X 55 Schmidt-Rubin Carbine ( K-11 ) sold for $19.95 and they looked nearly brand new ...that was something we could afford and each bought one ! Getting ammo was a problem , I got dies, CH carried them , but cases were all Berdan primed .
The local gun , reloading and all things firearms related shop owner showed us how to form 284 Winchester into 7.5 Swiss, back then he had bins full of once fired 284 Winchester brass. My K-11 has no problems with 284 reformed cases . Shot that for years until Norma made some boxer primed ammo that was reloadable, but Norma ammo was pricey...I had one box and reloaded them until they just wore out.
When the K-31's hit the market , reloadable boxer primed brass became available, so I picked up 100 once fired mixed head stamped brass for a lot cheaper than 284 Winchester...that was good. I need to get more while it's still available !
The 1911 is the best for cast boolits. The longer throat is better for the long heavier cast boolits. They don't have to be deep seated. I like the Lee 170 grain C309-170-F over 10 grains of Unique or 13 grains of Red Dot.
It's a fun gun and vey accurate with a great trigger. The Swiss can make firearms .
You should have a ball with it.
Gary

[Battis]

I shot 30 rounds out of my 96/11 the other day with 170 gr gas checked bullet (.309) and:

20 grs IMR 4227 - 10 rounds
30 grs H4895 - 10 rounds
13 grs Red Dot - 10 rounds

At 200 yards, from the bench, accuracy was basically the same with each powder. The Red Dot had the mildest recoil, the H4895 kicked up the most dirt in the berm.
According to my chronograph, The Red Dot bullets were right around 1530 fps, the H4895 right around 1930 fps. The 4227 bullets were around 1650 fps.
Great rifle.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In 1968 myself and a buddy , we were 18 and could buy a rifle ( 21 for hand gun) , at the Army Navy Surplus the 1903A3 Springfield's sold for $60.00, the 98 Mausers for $50.00 , the 303 British Enfields for $40.00....we couldn't afford any of those .


My single 1968 "American Rifleman" was given to me while still at school, by a friend who had gone over the wire early and become a merchant navy engineer cadet. So I still have those ads, which even then struck me as evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't the intended shooter for any professional group. At that time there was only a vague knowledge that the Swiss had a more modern bolt-action rifle which hardly ever made it out of the country.

My two Schmidt-Rubins are both the 1889, for which I have a perverse liking despite its not being quite as light, handy and modern as the 1911. It is also weaker, but not quite as bad as some suppose, and capable of being an effective hunting or long-range rifle. TF Fremantle, published in 1900, describes how Captain Otter of the Swiss army could start with a loaded magazine of 13 shots and place 36 to 39 on a 1.8 metre target at 300 metres, in one minute. His numerical score was approximately equivalent to all on the 1m. inner ring. At 200 he could put about 80% of ten to thirteen shots on a row of five kneeling-man silhouettes in twenty seconds. That is pretty modern, comparing very well with what is expected of the combat infantryman today. I don't know whether he used the 1889 or the 1896, but it could only have been with the original paper-patched, steel-capped bullet.

There has to be a snag somewhere. All 7.5mm. Swiss rifles have about the same bore dimensions, a bore which would be well suited to standard .308 bullets. But the 1889 has an inordinately wide chamber neck and throat, .355 and .335in. as against .342 and .310 in the 1911. Those figures come from my own rifles and pictures of casts seen in the excellent www.swissrifles.com (http://www.swissrifles.com/) . The 1889 throat is much longer too. I think the 1889 was originally designed for a much larger bullet, which would be swaged down to groove diameter in the throat. People do get reasonable, but perhaps not really good, accuracy with ordinary jacketed bullets.

A point which could affect you is that the 19th century rifle casts have a .362in. shoulder diameter, while the K31 is .475in. The great popularity of the K31 means it is possible that some die manufacturers make dies which would be too large for the 1911, and really good 1911 dies used with a K31 would produce more working of the brass (though not its immediate destruction) than would be desirable.

One of my rifles has the amputated forend, but fortunately where a splice would be hidden by the barrel band, and without slimming down behind that point. A hidden benefit of these rifles, but a very great one, is that the barrel is free-floated as to wood, but is held in a sliding nickel silver bush at the forend tip, sandwiched between stock and handguard. I have got as far as making this, and buying the missing steel fittings from www.gunpartscorp.com (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/) . Parts availability is good, but they appear to have used the 1889 schematic for both rifles. This picture shows, by my red arrows, how bolt and receiver shoulder bear on the lug of the 1896 or 1911 bolt sleeve. In the 1889 the helical slot would fall between those points, and failure would (with luck) consist of distortion of that sleeve rather than disintegration.


173925

The high-firing military sights, for much recreational shooting, is a nuisance. I bought a spare bolt plug and silver soldered a smallish micrometer receiver sight in place. You can see the 1889's locking lugs, to the rear of the helically slotted bolt sleeve.


173926

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have an 1896/11 which means it was reworked with an added pistol grip in 1911. Mine was made in 1905. I traded a buck knife for it in the 80's because someone cut the stock off halfway down the barrel. I searched many places for many years trying to find a stock. While on the Swiss rifle forum, I found out about Frank Von Binnendijk in Voorburg in the Netherlands. Bought the stock and hardware that I needed to make it a complete rifle.

I actually overlooked the name on the Swissrifles site, which commemorates the member and vendor well known as Guisan. His advice was always good, and he will be sadly missed.


http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/

[semtav]

I couldn't stand it, been wanting a 1911 for a couple years. Now have one on the way too !!!

[Kevinakaq]

Have a 1911, K31, and an 1889. All quality workmanship that are pure joy to hold and shoot. Eyeballing a 1911/23" hard...hope to make it through the weekend, but finding this thread doesn't make for a very good support group...

174343
174344

[NuJudge]

You will want a tall front sight, to bring the Point of Impact down, otherwise, at all reasonable distances you will be shooting groups way high on any target.

The rubber knobs on the bolt handle are quite fragile, so be very gentle. The modern replacements are hard to find, and expensive.

I shoot the same cast loads I do in my K31 rifles.

[kawasakifreak77]

Thank you everyone! Now I'm wondering about getting a K1911... Do they have the same collar thingy to free float the barrel as the G1911?


You will want a tall front sight, to bring the Point of Impact down, otherwise, at all reasonable distances you will be shooting groups way high on any target.

The rubber knobs on the bolt handle are quite fragile, so be very gentle. The modern replacements are hard to find, and expensive.

I shoot the same cast loads I do in my K31 rifles.

Yes sir. I finally got out with her the other day & it shoots waaaay high. 12"+ where dors on buy taller front sights?

& fortunately, my bolt handle is in pristine condition!

[NuJudge]

With Guisan moving on to the Eternal Rifle Association, I would try the eMail address down at the bottom of this thread:
http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/14237/Orders-Tall-Sights-European-orders-St-Marie-products#.V7h0OWW7fq0

[Pb4me]

Ballistics in Scotland:

PM sent.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You will want a tall front sight, to bring the Point of Impact down, otherwise, at all reasonable distances you will be shooting groups way high on any target.

The rubber knobs on the bolt handle are quite fragile, so be very gentle. The modern replacements are hard to find, and expensive.

I shoot the same cast loads I do in my K31 rifles.

One of my knobs has been slightly chewed by a mouse of unknown nationality, an event so interesting that I am inclined to keep it. He must have leapt over a foot to get at it, so he surely needed it. Numrich now list those knobs as sold out. They were hard rubber or vulcanite, probably coloured with red iron oxide which you can buy as a very fine powder on eBay. I have seen photographs of modern knobs which are just a bit too shine, with a slight translucency which doesn't look quite right. I think you could probably do better by casting epoxy impregnated with iron oxide, and turning them to shape on a lathe, or with a drill, files and abrasive paper.

I believe the rifle some people have referred to above as the 1896/1911 (very reasonably, since it is a better description), is officially the 1889/1911. It is actually an 1896 sction, safe with the GP11 ammunition or an equivalent. There is also an 1889/1900 short rifle of the same description, which retained the pistol grip but was the first to have what we think of as the 1911 six-shot detachable magazine. This also is safe with GP11, but is a much rarer item than the 1911, and shouldn't be modified. The 1896 grooves go exactly where they aren't on the 1889 below.

You shouldn't assume from that jointed-in pistol grip or even the magazine that you have a true 1896-actioned rifle. There is no telling whether easy part of the modifications were occasionally copied privately, but making it safe for higher pressure can't be. You need to examine the rotary sleeve or the top of the action. This is an 1886, and in the 1896 those two grooves in the receiver top, though remaining about the same length, are moved to the rear.

Since my post above I have come on some information supporting my belief that no Swiss issue 7.5mm. round was ever loaded with semi-smokeless powder, as the term was understood in the UK and US. That was an intimate mixture, within the grain, of smokeless and black powder, so it was intermediate in most of their properties, such as fouling, power, tendency to promote rusting - and smoke.

I think people just mistranslated early manuals saying rauchschwach, or smoke-weak. But manuals of the 1960s say the same for GP11 ammunition, and add "nitrocellulose". I knew some pretty early GP90 had been fired with no more smoke than smokeless, and without a sulphurous smell when burned loose. But I found TF Fremantle (nephew or great-nephew of the man you can see on the field of Gettysburg in a red coat), writing in 1901 that the Swiss cartridge used nitrocellulose, and someone has told me that so did a Swiss government report at the time of the 1889's adoption.

I believe the K31 was found in trials to be more accurate than the 1911. But that was in exhaustive large-scale testing, hundreds of one against hundreds of the other, and we should expect to find individual 1911s of exceptional accuracy. They were all good by military rifle standards. It seems to have been front locking that brought out the accuracy of the K31, as the long 1911 was considered more accurate that the short rifles and carbines of its time.

[kawasakifreak77]

The other thing I reeeally like about this 1911 vs the K31 is the stock, especially in the grip area is so much slimmer. The K31 I always thought was 'too fat' (I'm a little guy) & it never did really fit me well but I've for the most part I've gotten used to it. Man when I pick up the 1911 it just feels like a part of me!

Now I wanna find a sportered K11 to thread for a suppressor host..