PC- leave 'em lay or stand 'um up?

[Jon.Moore]

So my powder is ordered from Smoke, I'm getting ready to do the "Shake N Bake" method, not ES. Should I stand my bullets up on the base's to bake them or leave them lay on the wire mesh any way they pour out and bake them? I was thinking I could use some small cheap salad tongs to grab them and stand them up... what does everyone use/do? I'm sure that you don't want to "handle" them too much that you would scrap away any powder before the bake. Is this a big issue? Thanks!!!! Jon

[bangerjim]

Depends on your QC requirements! Totally up to you.

I personally stand them up to get almost ESPC finishes with BBDT. I have never had any success at all (to my standards) by laying boolits on NSAF or hardware cloth. Flat spots, thin spots, thick spots, lay marks everywhere....a total mess in my book.

But it is your time. And your product. It takes me very little time to just pick them up with hemos and sit them on my trays covered with NSAF. Hemos do almost no damage to the PC coat. Remember the powder flows as it melts.

Do what turns you on.

Most of your questions will be ansewered by YOURSELF once you actually get the supplies and do the process. Doing is 90% of learning.

Have fun! And welcome to the fourm.

[shoot-n-lead]

I judge my bullets by how they perform and not really so much on how they look. They perform the same whether you dump and bake or stand them up...but they will not have a beautiful, even finish, when dumped as they bump into each other.

If you are like banger and want them to perform well and look good...then standing them up makes a difference.

[Jon.Moore]

Thanks guys!! That's what I wanted to know!!

[LakeviewBulldog]

I always stand mine up on NSAF. To me it doesn't seem like it takes that much longer and the finished product looks much better in my opinion.

[clum553946]

I use non stick cookie sheets with good results

[matrixcs]

I use both methods, about half of my pc boolits are just dumped 3 to 5 hundred at a time onto 1/4" hardware cloth trays lined with
anodized aluminum screen (small contact area on boolit and excess powder falls thru) it take 2 coats for good coverage and gives an interesting not glossy finish....
If I want pretty shiny I stand them up on nsaf using forceps or gloves ( much more time consuming and not much fun for my arthritis )

[Phantom30]

I personally stand them up to get almost ESPC finishes with BBDT. I have never had any success at all (to my standards) by laying boolits on NSAF or hardware cloth. Flat spots, thin spots, thick spots, lay marks everywhere....a total mess in my book.

But it is your time. And your product. It takes me very little time to just pick them up with hemos and sit them on my trays covered with NSAF. Hemos do almost no damage to the PC coat. Remember the powder flows as it melts..

'Dutchninja' has a new BBDT variation and stand'em up process which should help alot he's preparing the stuff to post a how to thread soon.

[OS OK]

173398
I use a large pair of tweezers, I too want a nice finished look. To save time though, I dump the entire load of boolits and BB's on a cookie sheet to make picking them up easy. At first I tried to pick them out of the butter tuband that didn't work well at all and was really time consuming. If you give the sheet a sideways push pull a few times all the boolits will roll together in parallel and in so doing they coat even better on their sides. I grab them and tap the tweezers on the side of the tray and knock off any extra powder and then stand them up. Yes, it takes a few more seconds per round but like I said before...I like them to look good.
This is 'gloss clear powder', it is easy to see how well they get coated...they look like sugar coated lemon drops.

***I did every thing I could to get this picture to load right side up, I even loaded it upside down to get it to flip over and it will just not comply...anyway you can see how much easier it is to grab the boolits with tweezers off the tray, even standing on your head!

[vrh]

Here you go OS OK.173401

[OS OK]

HEY!...thanks, but how'd you do that?

[jcren]

Tweezers or hemostats work well, but my hands would start to ache. Picked up some cheap nitrile gloves from Home depot and once you get the finger tips covered in powder, they not only do not scrape powder off, but you can touch up dings with a tap of a finger or by rotating while you have it picked up.

[Walter Laich]

I've had good luck with hemostats but will give gloves a try. Willing to try a new way (for me). After all PC is an ongoing learning experience

[RustyReel]

Tried the nitrile glove a few minutes ago.....back to hemostats for me. Wish it had worked..

[DerekP Houston]

Tried the nitrile glove a few minutes ago.....back to hemostats for me. Wish it had worked..

Did you dust them in powder first? That has been my method but I don't powder coat many at a time.

[popper]

I only PC for rifle, a good consistent finish is needed so I stand them up.

[garym1a2]

For my 9mm and 40S&W I donot stand them up. But, I only do a big batch once a year. I did 8000 in a weekend.

[NyFirefighter357]

Anybody here using Youtuber "Elvis Ammo" method of shake & bake using warm 140F bullets? Seems to produce one coat coverage. BTW he leaves them laying down.

[bangerjim]

Preheating is a "wild card" that is a totally uncontrollable method of tricking the powder to stick. A few degrees either way can make the difference between no effect and big clumps sticking.

BBDT and ESPC methods have inherently built-in controls (physics!) on coating thickness. Drying the boolits at 100F or so for some time is one thing, but trying to heat them to the "just starting to melt" point is asking for bad coats.

I get ONE COAT coverage every time with all HF and Smoke powders using BBDT.....the way I and many others on here have developed and used for several years now.......with ecellent success.

Do what you think you have to.........I know what works for me and my needs.

Banger

[Jon.Moore]

Very good info going on here!! It's these little tricks that make a big difference for those like me who are just starting out! Many THANKS!!!! -------- Jon

[foesgth]

I have the best results using plastic tweezers from an old first aid kit. The plastic seems to be the same as the Cool Whip tub. The PC sticks to them and leaves few marks.

173500

[Dragonheart]

The answer as to dump or stand is simple as do you just want your handloads to go bang or do you want to predict the point of impact? If you answer is the latter, then accuracy is the priority meaning you need a flat base on the bullet something you are not going to get with the dump.

[shoot-n-lead]

The answer as to dump or stand is simple as do you just want your handloads to go bang or do you want to predict the point of impact? If you answer is the latter, then accuracy is the priority meaning you need a flat base on the bullet something you are not going to get with the dump.

This is a load of BS...my dumped bullets are very accurate.

You guys kill me with this carp...you talk a bunch of stuff that you have no idea what you are talking about. Y'all need to put the time in to find out if what you are saying is true...rather than come on here and put this stuff as if it is fact.

[DerekP Houston]

This is a load of BS...my dumped bullets are very accurate.

You guys kill me with this carp...you talk a bunch of stuff that you have no idea what you are talking about. Y'all need to put the time in to find out if what you are saying is true...rather than come on here and put this stuff as if it is fact.

I dunno, i switched to hitek for the dump method and it works awesome. PC I stand up just for the shiny finish and pretty bullets. To each their own. hell if I'm being lazy I just use alox and deal with the smoke.

[shoot-n-lead]

To each their own. hell if I'm being lazy I just use alox and deal with the smoke.

And...the leading.

[DerekP Houston]

And...the leading.

I must just be lucky, i've never had severe leading *yet* that couldn't be cured with a thorough cleaning.

[shoot-n-lead]

I must just be lucky, i've never had severe leading *yet* that couldn't be cured with a thorough cleaning.

I didn't say nor mean "severe"...I meant...ANY lead.

[Phantom30]

You guys are losing the bubble here “accuracy matters”. People reload because it is fun, or cost effective, or they are bored with nothing else to do with their money. Then there are those who realize that all is not well and reloading may be the only source of sustained fire power.

Pistol banging at 3 yards, 10 yards or even 30 yards, it does not matter a lot just cast’em, coat’em, load’em and shoot’em. Subsonic rifle pretty much the same deal, but if you are trying to replace Berger 230gr Match Hybrids, or Hornady 208gr ELD Match, or even Sierra 175gr Tipped MatchKing well “accuracy matters” a lot in performance and process.

Alox smoke smells, I prefer Napalm in the morning, burnt powder in the afternoon and somebody appropriately wearing nice perfume at night…

[rosewood]

I use gloves dusted in the PC before picking them up. Works great and easier than hemostats to me.

[Dragonheart]

This is a load of BS...my dumped bullets are very accurate.

You guys kill me with this carp...you talk a bunch of stuff that you have no idea what you are talking about. Y'all need to put the time in to find out if what you are saying is true...rather than come on here and put this stuff as if it is fact.

Argue with proven physics not me. The fact is the base of a bullet steers the bullet, even a degree off axis has an effect on the bullet's path. Why do you think these guys go to so much effort to seat their gas checks square?

Like any liquid when cured powder flows and settles to the lowest level, so a bullet laying on it's side will tend to have a heaver coating where it lays; therefore not a flat base perpendicular to the side of the bullet. If you have devised a dump method that can deliver a perfectly flat base and perpendicular base then you have figured out a way to make water run uphill and are doing better than me.

[RP]

Some people want to hit the barn others want to hit the key hole in the door. Then there is the distance they are shooting 10 yards or 100. I been told I am asking to much out of my deer rifles to have 5 shots touching but that is what I require before it goes to the woods with me.
KEEP that in mind people everyone is not after the same thing or have the same requirements out of their reloads. Disagree in a civil manner.

[Phantom30]

Like any liquid when cured powder flows and settles to the lowest level,
Absolutely correct. If your boolit y or z CG locations are not zero then you get a nutater or tumbler or even worse a baffle striker, either way less than keyhole accurate. That's why I believe large rifle boolits come out better ESPC'd on their matching HP spikes, the bases and drive bands are very consistent and the ogive smooth. It was either popper or RP that mentioned that going without a GC would peen the base and upset accuracy at higher pressures. Trying to determine where that happens and then live with the reduced velocity. Don't like messing with GCs........ have 140 MOA on the scope so I can deal with velocity but can't give up accuracy.

[shoot-n-lead]

Argue with proven physics not me. The fact is the base of a bullet steers the bullet, even a degree off axis has an effect on the bullet's path. Why do you thing these guys go to so much effort to seat their gas checks square?

Like any liquid when cured powder flows and settles to the lowest level, so a bullet laying on it's side will tend to have a heaver coating where it lays; therefore not a flat base perpendicular to the side of the bullet. If you have devised a dump method that can deliver a perfectly flat base and perpendicular base then you have figured out a way to make water run uphill and are doing better than me.

I don't really care about your argument...physics and all.

I will tell you that my dumped bullets will shoot as well as YOU can shoot them. You can make all of these stupid claims that you want...it only proves that you have never coated any bullets and shot them. AND, I doubt seriously if you are shooter enough to prove this idiot point that you a trying to make. Dumped bullets will shoot to the limit of the ability of probably 95% of shooters or guns they are shot in. You are another poser acting like he knows what he is talking about.

You can sell this line to someone else, I know how well dumped bullets shoot.

The OP made no mention that he is shooting these bullets in bench competition...and short of that requirement, there are VERY FEW on this or any forum that can demonstrate a real world difference in accuracy between dumped and stood up powder coated bullets.

[rosewood]

Looks like you guys both have valid points and probably ultimately agree, but are looking at it from a different angle.

If the boolit's weight is off center, that no doubt affects the accuracy of a boolit as it will wobble as it flies through the air. Now for pistol caliber boolits at short ranges, you will probably never see that wobble. Heck, if you have an air pocket in a cast boolit that was lubed, it may have the same issue. It is about quality control. Now in the world we live in, most of us will never be able to see the difference between a vertical boolit or horizontal one when it was baked. If you however was using a boolit for longer ranges, then there would no doubt be an effect. And the point/range at which it becomes pronounced and affects the accuracy may vary from caliber to caliber, might be 50 yards on one and 300 on another, but an off balance boolit isn't going to fly as straight as a balanced one.

In summary, does it affect the boolit? Yes. Is it significant enough to matter? Yes and no, depends on the use and the requirements of the user.

Rosewood

[Jon.Moore]

Sorry Guys, I guess my simple question has turned into a complex argument! Lots of things to consider! While I'm working up my loads,, I would prefer all bullet strikes are in the same "small" group! --Jon

[Loudy13]

I place a pan of to be coated bullets on top of my oven and it heats them up a little not sure if it is a great help during the summer but in the spring when it is chilly it sure seems to help. I set them on a table in the sun once and that warmed them up enough for me to think it was helping. I use the orange handled needle nose pliers from HF they have a spring action and they are 1.99 a pair. I did have to file the slag off of them so they wouldn't scratch the powder off but that only took a few seconds. I only lay bullets down if they fall over when I put them in the oven, it doesn't seem to make a huge difference but I like to stand them up.

[shoot-n-lead]

Sorry Guys, I guess my simple question has turned into a complex argument! Lots of things to consider! While I'm working up my loads,, I would prefer all bullet strikes are in the same "small" group! --Jon

Then you will be fine doing them either way.

[RP]

I don't really care about your argument...physics and all.

I will tell you that my dumped bullets will shoot as well as YOU can shoot them. You can make all of these stupid claims that you want...it only proves that you have never coated any bullets and shot them. AND, I doubt seriously if you are shooter enough to prove this idiot point that you a trying to make. Dumped bullets will shoot to the limit of the ability of probably 95% of shooters or guns they are shot in. You are another poser acting like he knows what he is talking about.

You can sell this line to someone else, I know how well dumped bullets shoot.

The OP made no mention that he is shooting these bullets in bench competition...and short of that requirement, there are VERY FEW on this or any forum that can demonstrate a real world difference in accuracy between dumped and stood up powder coated bullets.

So yours saying a unbalanced bullet or a bullet with a uneven base will shoot as well as one that is balanced or has a flat base? And physics have not real effect on anything? Sure dumped bullets will have there place the OP asked which way would be better and was told either way would work depending on his goals. As far as anyone shooting skills there is no way anyone else could say that s just not reasonable. As far as shooting your dumped bullets being shot as well as anyone can shoot them well your correct they will perform as dumped bullets unbalanced and uneven bases. Will this matter to alot of shooters not to some . Just as the people go to the ranges and shoot as fast as they can at a target and those who aim between shots its up to the shooter what they are trying to gain.
Review terms of service before you proceed down this path.

[True.grit]

I tried the dump method and did not like the look of the finish. I stand them upright. I use long tweezers and at first it was slow. But as with anything the more you do it the faster and better the out come. I use the shake and bake method and am perfectly happy with the look and accuracy of the rounds. I think if they look good they will shoot better, meaning if you take time on the appearance you will also take time and be more accurate on all aspects of loading and shooting as well. Well that's my 2 cents for what its worth, and your welcome to it. TG

[clum553946]

I stand them up with 7" offset tweezers. It's great chopstick practice so I don't drop my food all over the place & embarrass myself when I'm out at my favorite Chinese or Japanese restaurant!

[Jon.Moore]

I found a set of giant tweezers at Harbor Freight... there were 6 in the package, but only the 45 degree bent ones worked the best. The set was $5.95... then I brought up a 20% discount coupon on my smart phone.. H.-F. app... saved a little coin, but the one tweezer really works good, just grab on the lube ring and turn the pan to keep grabbing from the same end... Thanks guys for all the help, for just starting out I was able to cut a lot of corners that I otherwise would have wasted time and money figuring my own way out. For the record, I am an accuracy freak! I got my 9MM carbine to shoot a quarter size group at 25 yds... with a flier WAY TOO OFTEN!! I don't know the answer yet but working it out is half the fun right?? Started coating my .45acp's and the fun has just re-started!! ---------- Jon

[jcwit]

I only PC pistol bullets, and I dump them on course screen, they shoot as well as I can.

Even from a rest I see no difference.

But then I shoot no competition.

If I was shooting competition I would use jacketed.

I watch bulls eye shooters put them all in the X Ring at 50 yards.

[warf73]

I only PC pistol bullets, and I dump them on course screen, they shoot as well as I can.

Even from a rest I see no difference.

But then I shoot no competition.

If I was shooting competition I would use jacketed.

I watch bulls eye shooters put them all in the X Ring at 50 yards.

Same here, I use the dump method since I cast and coat in pounds not boolit count. My 25 yards groups with a my handgun are the same as before I started coating. Now if I where to shoot longer ranges would it make a difference..... maybe. I guess the whole thing boils down to how thick is your coating? My single coat is a total of maybe .003" which leaves for me no flashing on the side facing the parchment paper. I've posted pics of my boolits and the only thing you can really see is the pigments not blending well in the shake and bake process. This is stuff I purchased off of ebay not smokes good powder that has been provine with the S&B process.

173992


All the boolits in this bowl where dumped onto the cookie sheet.
To each there own.