Old semiautos versus new onnes

[olafhardt]

I am basically a wheelgun guy but I thought I would check out some semis. I found several new semis vertually impossible to use because they were to hard to load and rack the slide. And they don't improve a lot with use. Why is this? An older Chinese Tokarev is fun at the range so is a S&W 39-2. A Glock 43 is awful as is a CZ 75. I am not talking accuracy or reliability, I am talking shear difficulty in loading magazines and racking slides. The only really fun new auto I have found is the Highpoint 9mm. There seems to be a competion going on to see who can put the stiffest springs in pistols.

[DCP]

You might just as well stay with a wheel gun, after all the pistols you talked about, the Highpoint 9mm is not one of the pistols I would trust my life to.

You get what you pay for!

[tazman]

I have tried several semi-auto pistols and also have little love for them. I don't like the feel of the plastic guns. The all metal guns feel much better but there are issues with accuracy and handling. I dearly love the 1911 style pistols but can't shoot them worth a hoot. I can't fault the gun for that.
The only one I have kept is a Beretta 92FS. It feels decent, shoots fairly well, and eats anything I put in the magazine.
I am still a revolver man at heart though.

[dragon813gt]

A slide on a CZ 75 is not one that's hard to rack. Obviously this an issue for you so it's best to stay w/ a revolver. Slide racking is one of the reasons revolvers are recommended to women w/ small hands. It is what it is and I can see how someone that's older and/or w/ arthritis might have issues w/ them.

As far as loading magazines, get an Uplula and be done w/ it. I'm done killing my fingers loading a double stack. I can do it but see no reason to.

[knifemaker]

173382173383Tazman, there is no issue with accuracy with these two all steel 1911s. Both targets fired at 25 yards. Colt NM rested over sandbags with 8 rounds of +P duty ammo. S&W fired from Ransom rest with 8 rounds of Federal gold Match 185 gr. ammo. Both are very reliable and no failures to feed or eject.

[Virginia John]

You know that there are some addons that make racking a slide much easier. Look for slide rackers. My old all steel semis are my favorites and my best shooters. They all shoot better than I can but I love shooting them.

[35remington]

If the small autos do not have stiff recoil and magazine springs they will have more malfunctions if not jam continuously.

Nature of the beast. Live with it or choose something else.

[Premod70]

A 1911 that has the standard recoil system, no guide rod, can easily be racked one handed by pressing the recoil plug on a hard object such as a table edge. It works every time as long as one clears the barrel as they push down, keep the finger off the trigger while performing the act. The pistol's lower frame dust cover was short in case a soldier was incapacitated and only had the use of one arm. Just another reason the 1911 is the best pistol ever.

[Bigslug]

Part of it is that when you make the gun lighter or the travel distance of the slide shorter, you have to compensate with beefier shock absorbers. The easiest ones to rack will probably be the mid- and full-size Glock 9mm's because you have a fair amount of meat in the slide, the recoil spring only has to contend with 9mm, and you only have to compress a recoil spring, not a recoil spring PLUS the mainspring that propels the hammer.

Magazines? When you're dealing with larger capacities, stiffness usually equals reliability. They do get easier after the first couple outings though.

A 9mm 1911 is pretty user friendly save maybe the last two in a 9 round mag.

[Lagamor]

Like Dragon813gt said, get an Uplula. Money well spent.

[tazman]

173382173383Tazman, there is no issue with accuracy with these two all steel 1911s. Both targets fired at 25 yards. Colt NM rested over sandbags with 8 rounds of +P duty ammo. S&W fired from Ransom rest with 8 rounds of Federal gold Match 185 gr. ammo. Both are very reliable and no failures to feed or eject.

I have seen many 1911 style pistols shoot extremely well---for other people. Just not something I seem to be capable of and I have tried several over the years. Notice I said I couldn't fault the gun for me not being able to shoot it well.


A 1911 that has the standard recoil system, no guide rod, can easily be racked one handed by pressing the recoil plug on a hard object such as a table edge. It works every time as long as one clears the barrel as they push down, keep the finger off the trigger while performing the act. The pistol's lower frame dust cover was short in case a soldier was incapacitated and only had the use of one arm. Just another reason the 1911 is the best pistol ever.


I didn't know that bit about racking the slide with one hand on the 1911. I will have to keep that in mind for the future.

[B. Lumpkin]

Grab rear cocking serrations with your non-firing hand in the overhand sandwich clamp. Pull slide rearward while pushing the frame forwards with your firing hand. Observe the safety rules.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

We have multiple 1911's, 3.5,4, and 5 inch; a SAR (CZ75 clone: and an XDM 9mm. The XDM (4.5") is the easiest to work, 5" 1911's with standard (16 lb) recoil spring are next, SAR hardest due to narrow slide. The shorter the pistol the harder it is to work the slide due to stiffer recoil springs. On 1911's, a lighter hammer spring (19 or 20 lbs) is a common change that makes both trigger and slide easier to move without affecting reliability. Pistols with exposed hammers can be cocked before working the slide to make slide manipulation easier. My Para 14 shot double stack .45 magazines are not too bad to load, we use the loader that came with the XDM for the double stack 9's. My XDS .45 (3.3") is a bit stiff to rack.

[jcren]

Recoil must be absorbed by either weight or springs. Lighter guns like the modern cc pistols have to have stiffer springs to keep from battering the gun to death. Combine that and a short recoil cycle on a compact and things get stiff fast. Older guns and hi-point use heavy slides to absorb initial energy. Look at full sized guns with heavier steel slides for easier operation.

[farmerjim]

My Hi-Point 9mm has never malfunctioned. It is dead on accurate. I would trust it with my life.
That said, it is big, heavy, and is not my favorite. Great truck gun.

[35remington]

Whenever someone decides that springs are lighter or heavier than they "should be" (as if they were better informed than the designer of the gun as to what is correct....which of course they are not) they then subject the gun to increased likelihood of malfunction.

The springs put into the gun have the rating they do for a reason. Think again if you want to change them to something else.

[bob208]

look at an old hi-power or 1911 and some of the other old ones. you see real steel. you see curves. you see one line blending into the other. now look at the new guns you see clubby squire slides with cheese greeters top and bottom . grips that are just plain butt ugly even if they fit your hand. safeties that are hard to work. trigger pulls that are not that great. they call that improvements. I think not.

[Char-Gar]

I also favor revolvers, but has quite a number of autopistols. Each has their place and use. I have never found any autopistol difficult to load or operate, ONCE you have learned the techniques. Some are a little cranky, but none of unusable.

[str8wal]

You can ease the difficulty of racking the slide on DA/SA guns and 1911's by cocking the hammer first.

[hutch18414]

Try turning the gun upside down with the slide towards the ground. Grasp the slide with the off hand, palm upwards. Pull back on the slide as you push forward with the firing hand. Just like a weapon malfunction clearing drill. I taught my wife this technique and she can rack the slide on my 1911 very easily now. And she barely weighs 95 lbs soaking wet.

[FergusonTO35]

173501

[leeggen]

Tazman I used to shoot revolever also but when crunch hit I did purchase an auto PX4 Storm 40 full size. I was haveing a terrible time trying to hit things. Finaly figured it out and as I was shooting my mind would reflect on the slide coming at me. Sounds dizzy but as soon as I let my min d think of the slide my shots go crasy. Now I am ok with that but at first it was a distraction. Worked on industrial machines in maintenance and if something was coming at you you best duck.LOL Go to the range and rent a couple to shoot and find what works for you.
CD

[tazman]

Tazman I used to shoot revolever also but when crunch hit I did purchase an auto PX4 Storm 40 full size. I was haveing a terrible time trying to hit things. Finaly figured it out and as I was shooting my mind would reflect on the slide coming at me. Sounds dizzy but as soon as I let my min d think of the slide my shots go crasy. Now I am ok with that but at first it was a distraction. Worked on industrial machines in maintenance and if something was coming at you you best duck.LOL Go to the range and rent a couple to shoot and find what works for you.
CD

I never had an issue with the slide. Never thought about it. I just focus on the front sight and the target. I never see the slide recoil.
I have a Beretta 92fs that works for me. I don't like the design as well as the Colt 1911 but it fits my hand and I can shoot it reasonably well. Also, my Beretta is utterly reliable.
The hand fit seemed to be the problem with the 1911 for me. If the grip were a bit different on the 1911, I might do better with it.
All of the 1911 pistols I have owned and shot were 45ACP. I might do better with a 9mm but I am not certain enough to spend the money to find out. Very few Places around here have 1911 style guns at the shooting range that you can try out. None have them in 9mm. I also don't know anyone near here that has one I could try out.
Between the Beretta and my revolvers, I can get done what I need for the time being.

[olafhardt]

You might just as well stay with a wheel gun, after all the pistols you talked about, the Highpoint 9mm is not one of the pistols I would trust my life to.

You get what you pay for!
This strikes me as a rather snotty remark. Quite often I seem to get more while paying less. I don't see my guns as something I "trust my life to." My Hipoint has always worked. Are you just quoteing some elitest opinion or do you have real negative experience with Hipoints.

[olafhardt]

I have tried several semi-auto pistols and also have little love for them. I don't like the feel of the plastic guns. The all metal guns feel much better but there are issues with accuracy and handling. I dearly love the 1911 style pistols but can't shoot them worth a hoot. I can't fault the gun for that.
The only one I have kept is a Beretta 92FS. It feels decent, shoots fairly well, and eats anything I put in the magazine.
I am still a revolver man at heart though.
I originally thought 1911 was the way to go but mine hung in my holster in a street fight in Siagon. This was not the fault of the gun, it was my fault, but it comes back to me often.

[olafhardt]

A slide on a CZ 75 is not one that's hard to rack. Obviously this an issue for you so it's best to stay w/ a revolver. Slide racking is one of the reasons revolvers are recommended to women w/ small hands. It is what it is and I can see how someone that's older and/or w/ arthritis might have issues w/ them.

As far as loading magazines, get an Uplula and be done w/ it. I'm done killing my fingers loading a double stack. I can do it but see no reason to.
I did get me an Uplula and am rethinking some of my CZ 75 thoughts. I don't see any reason not to just load up the two magazines, stick one in the gun and the other somewhere else. That's more rounds than I have ever shot during a trip to the field except for doves or ducks neither of which I shoot with a 9mm.

[olafhardt]

If the small autos do not have stiff recoil and magazine springs they will have more malfunctions if not jam continuously.

Nature of the beast. Live with it or choose something else.
Well I just traded my Glock 43 for a 40 which seems to have much lighter springs.

[olafhardt]

Whenever someone decides that springs are lighter or heavier than they "should be" (as if they were better informed than the designer of the gun as to what is correct....which of course they are not) they then subject the gun to increased likelihood of malfunction.

The springs put into the gun have the rating they do for a reason. Think again if you want to change them to something else.
Heavy springs can be put in guns for all sorts of reasons. I read of H&R putting heavy springs in hand guns to prevent children from cocking or shooting them. The Taurus 94 I had a awful double action pull. It had to because the transfer bar barely grazed the frame mounted fireing pen. My son's Marlin 39 works much stiffer than mine because the mainspring has to overcome the rebound spring that mine does not have. I think that one way to solve design flaws is to just stick in stronger springs.

[35remington]

Revolvers may not work with lightened springs either. Think twice on changing spring strength on autoloaders especially.

The idea is that the gun goes bang every time. Significantly weakening or strengthening autoloader springs is often asking for trouble. They are the way they are for a reason, which is often not well understood.

Ask yourself if you know more than the engineer that designed the gun. Also ask yourself what consequences may occur if the spring is stronger or weaker? If you don't know, and aren't willing to reliability check your newly sprung creation, best leave it alone if it is working.

[Walkingwolf]

Hammer fired semi's force can be reduced by cocking the hammer before racking. I have found Glock's to have the hardest magazines to load without a loader. Kahr recommends not racking their semi's but using the slide release to chamber the first round.

As far as the High Point, if that is what you like, and it works for you it is none of others business what you carry. If it is legal to carry a sword they never fail or need reloading, and I will still shake your hand for carrying. I guess liberty is more important to me than joining the country club.

[Texantothecore]

I switched to revolves due to tthe tough springs on the magazine and the more complex cleaning required for a semi. I am thrilled with my revolvers.

[GhostHawk]

I have a variety of choices to shoot.

I have shot my buddy's Berretta 92fs a fair amount, I have no trouble shooting 2" groups at 20 feet with it.

I have a Springfield Armory 1911 (mid 90's) that is fun to shoot now and then. It is a good sized gun and the .45acp loads make me reach for my intestinal fortitude before reaching for the gun.

Still I have shot it enough that at need I could use it effectively. But the big recoil wears on me and it goes through the lead fast.

I have a CZ-52 that my buddy "gave" me, broken firing pin, once I had it walking, trotting, and behaving like a champ I offered him 100$ for it. And told him if he wanted it back he could have it, but that he would owe me for parts and time. :) It shoots but it has a dang loud bark. Groups with it just are not as small or as consistent. But it is within reach of my left hand as I sit here in my reclining loveseat. Yes it is loaded, and yes there is one in the spout and yes it is cocked and yes the safety is on. I pray I never need to use it.

Then I found a Hipoint C9 at the local pawn shop. The funny thing was I was talking to a customer a month later about Hipoint pistols and he pops up with "did you buy that *** Hipoint 9mm I sold here a month ago? Well yes as a matter of fact I did. "I could never hit the broadside of a barn with that thing"

I just eased out of that conversation. I really did not want to rub his nose in it. I got it and it had a problem with the mag release button. 10 minutes found me the phone number, and I had a very nice talk with a very nice polite man. 5 days later the parts arrived, no cost to me.
Included was a nice full page exploded view, with a couple of parts highlighted in yellow.

10 minutes later the pistol was working like a brand new one.

It does like its cast boolits to be a bit on the big size. Normal .356 124's keyholed at 20 feet and shot patterns. Jacketed it will shoot into a 2-3 inch group at 20 feet with no sweat depending on how good I am on any given day. I am still getting the sights fine tuned for my reloads, and I need to do some load development. But my last experiment with unsized .358 124 gr that cast at .360 is showing very good signs. No keyholes and groups not patterns. I would certainly trust my life to it. If I had to pick one and only one for a shtf setup it would be my first choice. Partially because I have a total of 3 dedicated mags for it. Partially because while they may stick out a bit I can use the 10 round Hipoint Carbine 9mm mags in it.

What I really prefer to shoot for shooting sake are the Ruger Mk III 22/45's. My wife and I each have one. Mine has a slightly longer stainless barrel and target sights. Hers has the 4.5" barrel and a Red Dot sight on top.

I am looking at a target on my wall right now, 9 shots that you could cover with a quarter, and then 10th would just be peeking out of the top edge. Operator error.

Both of those guns just shoot. But I would not trust either to stop even one person unless I could start shooting at 50 yards.

The Hipoint has a good blend of accuracy, dependability, lower recoil, low price, with good stopping power, combined with extra mags for more firepower if needed.

But your mileage may vary. Or maybe you just have money to burn.

[pmer]

Well I suppose folks that have trouble loading mags don't have to top them off. I hardly load them to max my self, the last few of a hi cap magazine I usually don't fight with. Never "had" to shoot one empty anyways. I'm still glad I dumped that G40 for a .44 Alaskan. Life is too short to be fighting gun that is hard to operate or won't do what you want it to do.

[ironhead7544]

I did not like the G17 that I was issued back in the early 90ties. It felt a bit weird as I was used to steel revolvers and autos.

After shooting the Glocks quite a bit, I use them because they are reliable, tough and accurate. Ugly as a mud fence maybe, but no one should see them until you have to use them in self defense.

The autoloaders take a bit of getting used to. Shoot a couple of thousand rounds before making a decision. By that time, you will not have a problem working the slide as the necessary muscles will have been built up.

On the other hand, the revolvers are also good for self defense IMHO. The autoloaders are just a bit better.

[30calflash]

Grab rear cocking serrations with your non-firing hand in the overhand sandwich clamp. Pull slide rearward while pushing the frame forwards with your firing hand. Observe the safety rules.

^ This will help.

Also many of the cited old auto pistols may have very worn recoils springs making them easier to manipulate.

I've known of a few folks with the Hi Point and none have been unhappy with the product. Never fired one myself.

[gnostic]

'A Glock 43 is awful as is a CZ 75.'

I'm with you, I love shooting the CZ75, but the way the slide fits inside the frame and stiff wolf Springs make it difficult to work the slide...

[GONRA]

GONRA setout in the late 1950's to collect interesting LOCKED BREEECH auto pistols,
(semiauto military rifles too) lateron turned out to be NON BLOWBACK auto pistols,
striving to get all possible action types.

Not much comes along these days - .32 and .380 ACP Seecamps as curiosities,
lastly the 9mm and .45 ACP Bobergs as mechanical marvels.
(Just gotta Remington R51 for another addition! DELAYED BLOWBACK!!!)

These older/weirder specimens are a joy to fiddle with and shoot.
(Try the .32 Schwarzlose BLOWFORWARD – hand won’t know which way the recoil went!)
BUT - forged parts, finely machined (modern investment cast/belt sanded can’t compare)
fun to shoot, reload ammo for, make parts and reloading dies, etc. in my shop…
Goes on forever…

Auto Pistols make a great hobby that Never Ends.