Paper cap and ball cartridges

[DrDucati]

Was in the hardware store about to buy a couple dowel rods to fashion paper cartridge forming mandrels when the hardware guy showed me the grooved dowel pins, huge price difference:

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Chucked it into my drill, and with drill held in the vise, applied sandpaper while gauging the pins taper with calipers. Made me some cartridges easy (cartridge box purchased from YouTuber "capandball" :

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[Geezer in NH]

Nice Idea!!

[BlackPowderBen]

That's a great idea!

[Gtek]

As of late been drifting into the cap-n-ball thing. Many things to learn and have been absorbing as much as I can find (scored a nice pair of 2nd Gen. 1860's two weeks ago- no boxes). May I ask the Dr. some questions on his experience with this technique. I have seen a YouTube video a fellow who uses large cigarette papers, folds them over wooden dowel and glues to bottom of ball. Charges tube from rear and then folding tail over charge and glue dot on bottom to hold. Questions- With your approach are you changing or reducing ball diameter? Does paper shear when seating if left at cut a ring ball diameter? His were straight cylindrical where your approach has a taper, I like the look and thought of that. What paper are you using? I would guess, roll paper, charge, ball, roll top? Thanks

[jimb16]

I used to make mine the same way. Nitrated velum for the paper....worked great. Just had to be careful not to damage them before loading.

[DrDucati]

As of late been drifting into the cap-n-ball thing. Many things to learn and have been absorbing as much as I can find (scored a nice pair of 2nd Gen. 1860's two weeks ago- no boxes). May I ask the Dr. some questions on his experience with this technique. I have seen a YouTube video a fellow who uses large cigarette papers, folds them over wooden dowel and glues to bottom of ball. Charges tube from rear and then folding tail over charge and glue dot on bottom to hold. Questions- With your approach are you changing or reducing ball diameter? Does paper shear when seating if left at cut a ring ball diameter? His were straight cylindrical where your approach has a taper, I like the look and thought of that. What paper are you using? I would guess, roll paper, charge, ball, roll top? Thanks

I have made mine based on Capandball's video how to make paper cartridges, and yes I roll the paper on the dowel after using a square paper for the bottom...pour charge, drop ball on top. I did not change the ball in any way.

Here are pics: 1) the cartridge as dropped into the cylinder, 2) the ball, as rammed into the cylinder, and 3) thin ring of lead with some glue attached. It looks like the cigarette rolling paper (large Zig-Zag cut to shape) tears and comes up around the ball as it enters the throat. I will put some sort of grease over the cylinder and see how these shoot. One videographer stated that cigarette paper does not burn completely, and if that is the case, I will obtain the hair curler paper mentioned in some vids.

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[DrDucati]

I used to make mine the same way. Nitrated velum for the paper....worked great. Just had to be careful not to damage them before loading.

That's where the cartridge box above would prove very useful

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think a tapered paper cartridge would be surer or bursting when rammed into the chamber, and a cylindrical one would just concertina. Not that it matters much, as a correctly fitting bullet would surely shear it, and I have ruptured thin copper sheet in a cartridge revolver cylinder gap with a small pistol primer over an inch away, so paper would certainly be no obstacle to a percussion cap.

I got good results by a very fast dip of each cartridge in cellulose model aircraft dope. You won't find that in every town, now that tissue paper has been replaced so much by plastic film, and model aircraft playstations, and it might have some tendency to degrade the powder. If I was doing it again I would dissolve a lesser quantity of celluloid (table-tennis balls if not findable elsewhere) in cellulose thinners. Collodion was used in the old days, and should be fine if you can find it. It is used for some photographic processes, and theatrical makeup departments apply scars with it.

[Omnivore]

You can spend the next six months fooling around with dangerous chemicals and exotic, treated papers, and it will not make the slightest difference.

Cigarette papers do not completely burn up in the chambers. Hair curling papers, also known as perm papers, do not completely burn up in the chambers either. This is NOT a problem. All you will notice is that during cleaning you'll be pulling a few bits of unburned paper out of the chambers. Just shoot and forget about it, stop obsessing over it, ignore it, and all will be well. No, it doesn't clog the flash hole. No it doesn't interfere with the operation of the gun in any way. Whatever you're going to ask next; no, it doesn't hurt, harm or interfere with that either.

DO, however use some caution, as in all muzzleloader shooting, in all scenarios, that you avoid reloading immediately, lest some ember be burning still as you force in another charge. I'll blow over the cylinder face as I rotate the cylinder, and then blow down the barrel bore. That adds some humidity, which helps keep the fouling soft, and it also gives some time (a few seconds) for any smoldering to extinguish. I have not ever had, or heard of, a spontaneous ignition in a revolver during loading, but I've seen it happen in long guns.

I've fired thousands of paper cartridges, using both cigarette paper and perm paper, without treating of the paper, and they work very well without any chemical treatment. For the last few years I've gone to shooting paper cartridges only, made exclusively with perm paper.

The tapered case does two things;
It makes the cartridge easier to load into the gun, especially in Colt revolvers where you don't have a straight shot into the chamber. Remington revolvers give you a straight shot into the chamber, and so there's less of a reason to taper the case, but still a tapered case goes in a bit easier. The other thing it does is to make the bullet easier to get into the paper case when assembling the cartridge. This design is closed at the head (the rear, or small end) with one layer of paper as an "end cap". The powder charge is put into the larger end, followed by a card and/or a lube pull and then the bullet.

Some people glue in the bullets. I don't. I prefer to leave the paper case longer at the large end, so there's enough paper to twist it over the nose of the bullet. Well, just watch and listen-- all the questions being asked above are answered, and more;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_JIyc6s8fnQ

Don't make it more complicated that it needs to be.

[Gtek]

Thank You Dr. D for detailed reply and great photos. On the same video of straight wall load he was using the cig paper. In the video a very noticeable confetti air burst, no big deal if they shoot well for me. When you made the statement "cut to shape" I would assume a taper cut? Also on sizing paper, are you single wrap? Appears to be a 58' and that ball is down the hole some, about 20 grains?

[rodwha]

Like Omnivore I never noticed any ignition issues with paper shards left in the chambers.

I did buy stump remover and nitrated some of my cigarette papers but quickly lost interest as it just added more to it and left a crystal mess. I never did try the few I made out.

I like your powder dropping tool Omnivore! That would be quite handy for loading up a bunch of paper cartridges.

I didn't care much for the look of the pull tab twisty tail, but seeing your setup it sure would be handy. Do you tear the end off during loading?

When I was making my cartridges I topped my mandrel with a bullet and used the lube to hold it to the paper and my tail was on the back end which I trimmed.

[DrDucati]

Thank You Dr. D for detailed reply and great photos. On the same video of straight wall load he was using the cig paper. In the video a very noticeable confetti air burst, no big deal if they shoot well for me. When you made the statement "cut to shape" I would assume a taper cut? Also on sizing paper, are you single wrap? Appears to be a 58' and that ball is down the hole some, about 20 grains?

It's a Lee .454 ball with 30gr 777. I made a cardboard form which is trapezoidal.

If there is no advantage to different papers, why use perm paper? Which is cheaper and more abundant, cig paper or perm paper?

There are two types of Experts on YouTube: I have great respect for those that are gracious and humble toward those to whom they would impart their knowledge: hickok45, capandball, fortunecookie45LC, and blackoracle69 to name a few of my favorites.

[rodwha]

Perm papers are by far cheaper.

I've not used them though.

[alexzxz]

Funny coincidence. I recently got myself a new 1858, so I was looking into making paper cartridges. Found that exact video by capandball and found it the most elegant way to roll a cartridge. Also his accent just fits, idk how.

This Thursday I went to a Sally's on the way back from work, and got these Jumbo end papers. $2.79 or with tax ~$3 for 1000 papers. Very affordable. Then was out for a few days to meet a friend in MA so put it aside.

Came back and checked them out. Very thin, yet feels stronger than any paper I've seen for that thickness.
Here's a piece I cut out compared to a full sized piece. It's holding up a clock.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8233/28611179631_42213d8560.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KAgLUx)https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8630/28072999133_fc6213dd80.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JLHsAr)

Decided to see if I could nitrate them. Soaked them in saturated 100% potassium nitrate I got from bio-tech company a few years back. Also tried some fertilizer grade ammonium nitrate for the heck of it.

https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8662/28687745495_40e0e02f56.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KH3cgD)https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7581/28581760122_3c7e518780.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KxEZvC)

The potassium soaked ones air-dried quickly with a small fan. Ammonium nitrate is too hygroscopic so that needs to be oven-dried. You can see the crystallization from the KNO3 on the sheet. Threw the container in fridge for a bit, and came back with sliver-like crystals in 20 mins. Interesting. Didn't know that was the crystallization pattern.

https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8054/28581762482_94fef74a37.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KxF1dj)https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8817/28071303614_2214925432.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JLyLzm)

Put one of the KN03 sheets in oven with the NH4NO3 sheets for 10-15 mins 275F. Came back with a yellowed KNO3 sheet, and the NH4NO3 sheets stuck on my pan. Way too impure fertilizer grade. Click on the next three for SLOW-MOTION VIDEOS of the yellowed sheet, the air-dried KNO3 sheet, and original end paper burning.

https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8467/28656191436_6be3bca15f.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KEftm9)https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8753/28072943413_3c4dbc6c1a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/JLHb2K)https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8580/28582958532_541cf612d6.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KxM8KS)

RESULT:
If you can't see the videos, the normal end-paper is best. Very little, practically no residue so it'll be negligible in your gun. It may burn slower than nitrated paper but it burns amazingly CLEAN. This may result in longer lasting embers but you shouldn't immediately reload a cap and ball anyway. I really wonder how they make these papers.

Now I feel like I wasted a lot of time trying to make a good product better. :-?Welp, hope that helped.

[DrDucati]

alexzxz, you learned something of value through experience. I would say it was time well spent.

[alexzxz]

Yeah that I did. Don't particularly regret it besides the fact that I should've slept earlier for work today.

Some more things to consider:

1. The nitrated papers may be worse because they probably contain excess amounts of potassium nitrate. So the residue may just be bits of leftover burnt nitrate. I soaked these end papers in a saturated solution of 3.5 g to 10 g water. If I used 2g or maybe 1.5g, the results may vastly improve. Some of that residue should also be nitrate salts leftover.
2. These burn tests are done in open air. The BP should lend some oxygen to the end papers so that should be fine according to most people's experiences.

Fun experiment, but this does goes against the reasoning behind paper cartridges, that they should be fast and convenient. This was neither so unless I want to build a machine that churns out nitrated papers from 1000 count box (since they can be fan dried) I probably won't do this again.

[Omnivore]

The twist tail is torn off as the cartridge is inserted into the chamber, prior to ramming. You get to where it's a single, stuff-and-tear motion.

The perm papers (A.K.A. and wraps) are not only cheaper, they're big enough you can get two 44 cases per sheet with room to spare. So 3,000 sheets, using one of nine for end caps, gives you around 5,300 cases, for three or four dollars. You'd have to compare to the jumbo cigarette papers too. Normal size cig papers aren't big enough to roll them they way I roll them, and that still leaves the issue of there being only one gummed edge whereas the end cap style case needs two glued edges. For some other case designs, cig papers work fine, but they're still more expensive.

I went through several iterations of cig paper cartridges before settling (for now) on the perm paper, end cap style case. They're easier and faster to make, and if I go by the number of perm papers I've been through, I've made over five thousand of this design - many times more than the total number of cig paper cartridges I ever made.

Nitrating is interesting, but do it to five thousand cases and then get back to me on how much fun that is. Let's think of ways to make it simpler, easier and faster.

[rodwha]

"Nitrating is interesting, but do it to five thousand cases and then get back to me on how much fun that is. Let's think of ways to make it simpler, easier and faster."

Precisely why I quit.

[DrDucati]

True though there are a lot of tedious things I've done for the fun of experimentation. Won't necessarily continue to do them.

I shoot a box of these and they shoot great.

[RPRNY]

Cigarette papers work fine. If they are "too expensive", so is shooting. Complete combustion of the paper is not necessary nor does it have any impact on performance.

[Omnivore]

Cigarette papers work fine. If they are "too expensive", so is shooting.

That's a good point. If you're getting the results you want with cig papers, there's no real reason to switch. With the perm papers I found I got the greater case length I wanted with the type of case I'm making. The cost difference is negligible in the big picture, and the big jumbo cig papers would probably do just as well with the long, tapered case I'm using.

I too experimented with nitrating for a while, so I can't knock anyone else for doing it. It would after all be kinda cool if they disappeared completely with each shot, but as you say it makes no difference in performance. Treating cig papers with KN03, I never did get the paper to completely burn up anyway, though I saw later that someone said you should boil the paper in the solution. Whether that makes the difference I don't know, because I never tried it. Others have suggested painting the finished cartridge with a solution of smokeless powder and acetone, but I'm a bit hesitant to try that given the unimportance of complete paper combustion along with the fact that you'd be shooting some smokeless along with your BP, combined with adding another step in the process. Another suggestion was to paint the cartridge with a solution of ping-pong ball (celluloid) and (I think) acetone also. Same reservations there. You can (last I checked) buy flash paper ready-made, and some have reported using that with good results. Since I've apparently fired thousands of untreated cartridges with very good (I would say excellent) results, then I'm not motivated to try the more exotic materials and processes. I'm more interested in ways to make this process even simpler and easier, and I think at this point it would have to involve some kind of mechanization.

The fantasy of course is that I feed a thousand-foot roll of paper into one end of a machine, fill a hopper with bullets, another hopper with lube, another with powder and one of adhesive maybe, with the option of having another roll of card stock for card wads, start pulling a lever and have finished cartridges drop out the other end, exactly to my specifications. Once you have that, you attach a motor or actuator to it and all you have to do is keep the hoppers full. The advanced model would have WiFi connectivity, so it could send me a text when it's getting low on materials or go on line and re-order them for me, or I could use my phone to tell it to have three hundred carts ready when I get home. OK, so where do I get one of those?

[RPRNY]

....
The fantasy of course is that I feed a thousand-foot roll of paper into one end of a machine, fill a hopper with bullets, another hopper with lube, another with powder and one of adhesive maybe, with the option of having another roll of card stock for card wads, start pulling a lever and have finished cartridges drop out the other end, exactly to my specifications. Once you have that, you attach a motor or actuator to it and all you have to do is keep the hoppers full. The advanced model would have WiFi connectivity, so it could send me a text when it's getting low on materials or go on line and re-order them for me, or I could use my phone to tell it to have three hundred carts ready when I get home. OK, so where do I get one of those?

to make paper cartridges for cap and ball revolvers... :bigsmyl2:

[M-Tecs]

Nice thread -- great info. Thanks for posting.

[rodwha]

That's a good point. If you're getting the results you want with cig papers, there's no real reason to switch. With the perm papers I found I got the greater case length I wanted with the type of case I'm making. The cost difference is negligible in the big picture, and the big jumbo cig papers would probably do just as well with the long, tapered case I'm using.

I too experimented with nitrating for a while, so I can't knock anyone else for doing it. It would after all be kinda cool if they disappeared completely with each shot, but as you say it makes no difference in performance. Treating cig papers with KN03, I never did get the paper to completely burn up anyway, though I saw later that someone said you should boil the paper in the solution. Whether that makes the difference I don't know, because I never tried it. Others have suggested painting the finished cartridge with a solution of smokeless powder and acetone, but I'm a bit hesitant to try that given the unimportance of complete paper combustion along with the fact that you'd be shooting some smokeless along with your BP, combined with adding another step in the process. Another suggestion was to paint the cartridge with a solution of ping-pong ball (celluloid) and (I think) acetone also. Same reservations there. You can (last I checked) buy flash paper ready-made, and some have reported using that with good results. Since I've apparently fired thousands of untreated cartridges with very good (I would say excellent) results, then I'm not motivated to try the more exotic materials and processes. I'm more interested in ways to make this process even simpler and easier, and I think at this point it would have to involve some kind of mechanization.

The fantasy of course is that I feed a thousand-foot roll of paper into one end of a machine, fill a hopper with bullets, another hopper with lube, another with powder and one of adhesive maybe, with the option of having another roll of card stock for card wads, start pulling a lever and have finished cartridges drop out the other end, exactly to my specifications. Once you have that, you attach a motor or actuator to it and all you have to do is keep the hoppers full. The advanced model would have WiFi connectivity, so it could send me a text when it's getting low on materials or go on line and re-order them for me, or I could use my phone to tell it to have three hundred carts ready when I get home. OK, so where do I get one of those?

If you ever get one up and running please let me know!

[Tar Heel]

Great video Omnivore! Thanks for this post.

[gnoahhh]

A lot of sound advice here!

My approach is to roll the paper onto a tapered mandrel, having cut them out with a trapezoidal pattern- just big enough to go around once with about 1/8" overlap. Seam is sealed with a child's glue stick, bottom folded and sealed with the glue stick. Balls are seated and permatized with the same glue sick after filling with powder.

For paper I'm old school. I go to the local art supply store and get thin rice paper- it's kind of porous and I feel it aids the ignition flash to reach the powder easier. I'm overthinking it for sure, but on the other hand I never have had a mis/hang-fire either. I never tear the cartridge when seating it either.

I also nitrate my paper. I put a small saucepan of water to boiling and add saltpeter (potassium nitrate) to it until no more will dissolve. I use that super-saturated solution to soak my paper in, clip the sheets to a little clothesline to dry over night before processing into cartridges. Set a match to it and it flashes away to nothing instantly. I never see any unburnt particles left in my chambers. Again, I'm overdoing it, but I like doing it that way. I always smear grease (or Crisco) over the chambers, partially to abrogate the risk of chain fires but mainly to get lube onto the ball.

[Michael J. Spangler]

How is everyone handling the possible issue of line getting into the powder? Is a simple card was enough to keep it all safe?
I'm guessing this would be a great candidate for a custom big lube style bullet mould.


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[Omnivore]

How is everyone handling the possible issue of line getting into the powder?

I'm sure you mean "lube getting into the powder". I've been all around this issue for a while. It's not complicated. The lube can be placed in direct contact with the powder IF it has no oils in it that will soak into the powder over time or when the weather gets warm, though you'd want to avoid leaving your cartridges in a car in a hot parking lot in the sun, for sure. Gateofeo #1 lube (look it up) works pretty well, as does the old standby, SPG. If you want more insurance, then yes; use a card wad between the powder and the lube. BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) shooters have been doing this for years and years in their metal cartridges.

A Big Lube style bullet will work too, but either way you look at it, the right amount of lube is going to take up a certain amount of space in the limited capacity chamber of a revolver. A bullet with a giant lube groove will help keep lube away from the powder, but it will be substantially longer than a more standard bullet of the same weight. Longer bullets generally require a faster rifling twist than shorter bullets. Using a longer bullet also means you do NOT have the option of loading without lube to increas your powder capacity for hunting. In hunting, where you may only fire one or two shots for blood, you don't need lube. The lube is only for keeping the gun running by keeping the powder fouling soft so it gets blown out with each subsequent shot. If you're only firing a frew shots, you can forgo the lube and use more powder in its place, UNLESS you have a long, big lube bullet, in which case the space is used up already.

The bottom line is that you can use all the lube you need by placing it between the powder and the bullet, so long as you use the correct lube. If you use a lube that's too soft, or has oil in it, it can wick its way through the paper to the powder over time, even if you have a big lube groove full of it and no lube is placed on the powder.

Use the right lube, use enough of it to prevent all fouling build-up (meaning your hundredth shot leaves the barrel looking exactly as it did after the first shot) and use whatever bullet shoots best in your gun.

With all the talk about this or that lube in the percussion revolver discussions, and whose personal recipe is the "best", the BPCR and Coyboy competition shooters have been quietly using SPG lube very successfully all along. Best we take some heed to that. GF1 lube has been working well for me, in hundreds and hundreds of paper cartridges, either placed directly on the powder or between cards, though I'm still not done with a long-term test to determine how much, if any, velocity reduction might result from leaving cartridges assembled with the GF1 in contact with the powder through two hot summers. If you're going to shoot them up within a few weeks or months, and you're not leaving them out in the hot sun on a hot day, you'll not have any cause for concern using GF1 or SPG in direct contact.

Also; lube in a bullet groove is not going to mix with the powder fouling as well as lube between the bullet and the powder. If 99.9% of it gets blown out the muzzle, then it's not doing its job.

Remember; we don't care a whit about actual "lubrication of the bullet" here. We don't need any of that at all in a black powder revolver, so even using the word "lube" can be a bit misleading if you don't understand the objective here. The only reason we need it at all is to keep the fouling in the barrel, and that which gets into the cylinder arbor, nice and gooey-soft so there's no buildup to degrade the performance of the barrel or tie up the action. That means we can keep shooting all day and not have to fuss around with swabing or removal of the cylinder for cleaning until we got home in the evening.

Oh! Another thing about using a card. Standard cards for 44/45 are .450" or, most likely, larger. That means a standard sized card will create an impedimant to inserting the cartridge into a chamber, being that practically all repro 44 percussion revolvers have chamber diameters of .450" and less. Some are as small as .447". I've used .452" - .454" cards in paper cartridges, but they're more difficult to load. Lately I've been using a punch for making cards for the 43 Spanish cartridge (available at Buffalo Arms in Idaho). Given that the paper case is tapered, and given that the card is below the lube pill, which is in turn below the bullet, the 43 Spanish-sized cards fit the paper case pretty well. You can tweak your rolling mandrel to ensure that your smaller card fits snug in the case with your desired amount of powder (I use 30 grains in most 44 carts).

[Gtek]

This thread has been GREAT! Thanks to all for their time and experiences. Bought my box of paper from Sally today, had some 1/2" dowel and off and running. In any way could this be described/perceived as drifting into a paper patch? The Dr.'s stuffed cylinder picture eludes to that in my eyes, makes me almost wanting to try a little application of something around ball/boolit area on paper and be concerned with overlap. I know, over thinking. Don't blaze me, OCD, ADHD, blonde a very long time ago, Southern, pick one!

[DrDucati]

I believe a little independent thinking should be encouraged. Don't let anyone tell you which experiment is worth performing.

[Omnivore]

I believe a little independent thinking should be encouraged. Don't let anyone tell you which experiment is worth performing.

^^ Word.

I size my bullets to .449" for the Pietta 44s (Lyman 4500 lube sizer) and they still shave a tiny bit of lead when seated. My Uberti Carbine has .450" chambers, but the same carts work in both platforms, the Uberti resulting in more of a "paper patch" bullet (though what happens to the paper during the transition from chamber to barrel I don't rightly know). Most or all of the paper gets scrubbed off the bullet while seating in the Piettas - it bunches up into a ring along with any shaved lead. If you only have the base of the bullet wrapped in paper though, you'll get a bit of a different result.

I'm wrapping the paper up, around, and over the top of the bullet to leave a "pull tab" for easy removal from my cartridge belt box, so the result is a little bit more paper left behind after seating. I suppose one way to look at it would be to have the goal of no paper at all left behind above the bullet after seating. That would make for a cleaner loading process. I choose the trade-off of being able to easily load in the field from the belt box, having no table, or no extra hands to remove cartridges from the container - I use one hand to pluck a round from the box, and load it, then pluck out another and so on. This we came to refer to as "field shooting" on another forum, as opposed to "range shooting" wherin you have an accessory table to place things off the ground or out of the mud or snow, etc. With a box of six carts, what do you do? You hold the gun in one hand, hold the box in another hand, and dump the carts out into your third hand... So the way I see it is that I use the little sixpacks to refill the 40 round belt box, then continue to load the gun directly from the belt box. I'm trying to look at it as a whole system then, in which I carry nothing but the gun in a belt holster, the cart box on the same belt, a capper around my neck on a lanyard, and a few sixpacks in a pocket or two. Mobile, requiring only two hands, and nothing gets placed on the ground or any such.

[Gtek]

I will admit this hobby has created more than a few memorable moments. In my fifties, ok, snowed in on mountain, I hope fairly normal otherwise. The micrometer at the fabric store, I have to tell them just to change the already strange look. Same scenario today at Sally's, put two boxes on counter and I sense the what/who is this guy buying this for from the green and purple haired young lady. I told her paper cartridges for one hundred and fifty year old period style revolvers. Processing, wait for it, The LOOK=PRICELESS!

[rodwha]

I will admit this hobby has created more than a few memorable moments. In my fifties, ok, snowed in on mountain, I hope fairly normal otherwise. The micrometer at the fabric store, I have to tell them just to change the already strange look. Same scenario today at Sally's, put two boxes on counter and I sense the what/who is this guy buying this for from the green and purple haired young lady. I told her paper cartridges for one hundred and fifty year old period style revolvers. Processing, wait for it, The LOOK=PRICELESS!

Too bad you didn't get a video. I would have loved that!

[Omnivore]

I'd be happier to see the purple-haired, black lipsticked clerk look at my bright orange nail polish, perm papers, Bobbi pins, acetone, and glue stick purchase and say something like; "So; do you like the Remington, the Colt, or other designs better? Myself I have a Spiller and Burr and a '62 Colt Police..."

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thanks guys! Great info. Yes sorry I meant to type LUBE. My iPhone autocorrect seems to think that's not right.
I'm look into the GF1 lube. I was wondering what types lubes would hold up at a given temp. I was planning on just using the ol smear of crisco during range trips but as always I want to see all of my options.
Great write up. I can't wait to find a revolver and start playing.


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[rancher1913]

[QUOTE=Omnivore;3731207]I'd be happier to see the purple-haired, black lipsticked clerk look at my bright orange nail polish,

I must have missed what the orange nail polish was for :shock:

[RogerDat]

What about using the commercial wool wads as lube/card? Have heard of them being left in cylinder for long periods without problems but have not tried it myself. Do use them but never left loaded for any length of time.

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas-Lubed-Black-Powder-Revolver-Wads-Per/706908.uts

[Omnivore]

Rancher; the black-on-black sights are difficult to impossible to see in certain lighting conditions, so I've taken to using nail polish on the back of the front sight, to provide some contrast.

the Wonderlube and Bore Butter type lubes, as found in most of the lubed wads, are great except that they will definitely degrade the powder if left in contact for days or more. The felt wads don't come with enough of it anyway, and if we're talking about paper carts, then the commercial wads are typically too big for easy cartridge assembly. Don't let me stop you from trying them though.

[DrDucati]

I would agree with omnivore. The wads you buy have too little lube, and are oversized such that they are difficult to seat level.

I punch my own out of felt from Durafelt co. after soaking in my own lube which is a common recipe made from sheep tallow and bees wax. They come out full of lube and they are a better fit to the cylinder.

[Michael J. Spangler]

So the trick would be to try to soak a properly sized felt wad in the GF1 or SPG lube then?
Not saying it would do as well for keeping the fouling soft but it would make for a dependable long lasting cartridge right?
I guess if you're at the range and wanted to fire a ton of rounds you could just smear some lube over the cylinder mouths to help keep up with the long sessions.



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[DrDucati]

I would think it would be less likely to wick yes. I soak a sheet of felt in a pan of melted lube, let it drip dry, and then punch the wads out of the sheet.

[rodwha]

I'm sure you mean "lube getting into the powder". I've been all around this issue for a while. It's not complicated. The lube can be placed in direct contact with the powder IF it has no oils in it that will soak into the powder over time or when the weather gets warm, though you'd want to avoid leaving your cartridges in a car in a hot parking lot in the sun, for sure. Gateofeo #1 lube (look it up) works pretty well, as does the old standby, SPG. If you want more insurance, then yes; use a card wad between the powder and the lube. BPCR (Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) shooters have been doing this for years and years in their metal cartridges.

A Big Lube style bullet will work too, but either way you look at it, the right amount of lube is going to take up a certain amount of space in the limited capacity chamber of a revolver. A bullet with a giant lube groove will help keep lube away from the powder, but it will be substantially longer than a more standard bullet of the same weight. Longer bullets generally require a faster rifling twist than shorter bullets. Using a longer bullet also means you do NOT have the option of loading without lube to increas your powder capacity for hunting. In hunting, where you may only fire one or two shots for blood, you don't need lube. The lube is only for keeping the gun running by keeping the powder fouling soft so it gets blown out with each subsequent shot. If you're only firing a frew shots, you can forgo the lube and use more powder in its place, UNLESS you have a long, big lube bullet, in which case the space is used up already.

The bottom line is that you can use all the lube you need by placing it between the powder and the bullet, so long as you use the correct lube. If you use a lube that's too soft, or has oil in it, it can wick its way through the paper to the powder over time, even if you have a big lube groove full of it and no lube is placed on the powder.

Use the right lube, use enough of it to prevent all fouling build-up (meaning your hundredth shot leaves the barrel looking exactly as it did after the first shot) and use whatever bullet shoots best in your gun.

With all the talk about this or that lube in the percussion revolver discussions, and whose personal recipe is the "best", the BPCR and Coyboy competition shooters have been quietly using SPG lube very successfully all along. Best we take some heed to that. GF1 lube has been working well for me, in hundreds and hundreds of paper cartridges, either placed directly on the powder or between cards, though I'm still not done with a long-term test to determine how much, if any, velocity reduction might result from leaving cartridges assembled with the GF1 in contact with the powder through two hot summers. If you're going to shoot them up within a few weeks or months, and you're not leaving them out in the hot sun on a hot day, you'll not have any cause for concern using GF1 or SPG in direct contact.

Also; lube in a bullet groove is not going to mix with the powder fouling as well as lube between the bullet and the powder. If 99.9% of it gets blown out the muzzle, then it's not doing its job.

Remember; we don't care a whit about actual "lubrication of the bullet" here. We don't need any of that at all in a black powder revolver, so even using the word "lube" can be a bit misleading if you don't understand the objective here. The only reason we need it at all is to keep the fouling in the barrel, and that which gets into the cylinder arbor, nice and gooey-soft so there's no buildup to degrade the performance of the barrel or tie up the action. That means we can keep shooting all day and not have to fuss around with swabing or removal of the cylinder for cleaning until we got home in the evening.

Oh! Another thing about using a card. Standard cards for 44/45 are .450" or, most likely, larger. That means a standard sized card will create an impedimant to inserting the cartridge into a chamber, being that practically all repro 44 percussion revolvers have chamber diameters of .450" and less. Some are as small as .447". I've used .452" - .454" cards in paper cartridges, but they're more difficult to load. Lately I've been using a punch for making cards for the 43 Spanish cartridge (available at Buffalo Arms in Idaho). Given that the paper case is tapered, and given that the card is below the lube pill, which is in turn below the bullet, the 43 Spanish-sized cards fit the paper case pretty well. You can tweak your rolling mandrel to ensure that your smaller card fits snug in the case with your desired amount of powder (I use 30 grains in most 44 carts).

So the GF1 lube doesn't taint the powder over time?

[Michael J. Spangler]

I've read the GF1 lube does well with pork lard. I'm guessing the cleaned deodorized lard for baking would work pretty well for this application? Might be easier to obtain. Although with the large Portuguese influence around here I might be able to get the mutton tallow locally.


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[Omnivore]

So the GF1 lube doesn't taint the powder over time?

Not that I've noticed, but as I said; I've yet to chronograph identical loads that are fresh, and two years old. I have 100 cartridges with GF1 directly on the powder, and they're two years old. I need to make up a few fresh and take them straight out and clock them, comparing them to the old ones.

Only then will I have empirical data.

I've since taken to placing a thin card between powder and lube, just in case.

If the chrono tests come up in the same range, then I'll gladly forego the cards in favor of simplicity.

By that answer you may conclude that I believe it likely that GF1, at least in hot weather (I've stored the old carts in a south-facing upstairs room, often exceeding 100 degrees F, for two summers) could degrade the powder at least a little.

[rodwha]

I punched out some thin cereal box cardboard for such. Haven't used any though.

But then I only put lube in the lube groove and just don't shoot RBs anymore. But I do get lube all over it really. I've been wanting to try pan lubing though but figured it would certainly have more lube all over it.

[alexzxz]

https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8382/28706392974_7ff12715b7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KJFLvU)

Quick post for someone thinking of starting paper cartridges. I've been using a dowel until today when I saw the sharpie on my desk. Comparing it to a round ball on my desk, seemed about the same. Wrapped a quick cartridge around it. The ball was a little tight. Put a piece of electrical tape where the ball should be for my 20 grain load. Cartridge forms perfectly and fit snug in the 1858 cylinder. I would use scotch tape instead to easier adjust the thickness, since electrical tape is thicker than most.

So you don't need to shape a dowel to get started. Grab that sharpie off your desk and you're ready to go.

It's very relaxing and easy to make cartridges while watching TV. As I shoot JSG which is low on fouling, I just roll, glue, fill with a Lee powder measure, throw a ball in and twist shut. I do make lube wads but only use them every few shots, so the majority are simple paper, powder and ball catridges. Keep it simple.

[Dbtk44]

https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8382/28706392974_7ff12715b7_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/KJFLvU)

Quick post for someone thinking of starting paper cartridges. I've been using a dowel until today when I saw the sharpie on my desk. Comparing it to a round ball on my desk, seemed about the same. Wrapped a quick cartridge around it. The ball was a little tight. Put a piece of electrical tape where the ball should be for my 20 grain load. Cartridge forms perfectly and fit snug in the 1858 cylinder. I would use scotch tape instead to easier adjust the thickness, since electrical tape is thicker than most.

So you don't need to shape a dowel to get started. Grab that sharpie off your desk and you're ready to go.

It's very relaxing and easy to make cartridges while watching TV. As I shoot JSG which is low on fouling, I just roll, glue, fill with a Lee powder measure, throw a ball in and twist shut. I do make lube wads but only use them every few shots, so the majority are simple paper, powder and ball catridges. Keep it simple.

Hat's off to you Sir...Excellent idea! I'm going to give this a try, as the dowel I was using seems to have sprouted legs and walked off. Sharpies, I got!

[alexzxz]

Just to be clear this is a medium tip normal sharpie I found at the office, there may be sizes like fine or large that won't fit.

EDIT: Well I may be wrong there. The tape covered up "Fine" so I guess it's fine tip.
Also the tolerances on these may not all be the same. A red tip I had was slightly too large, while black and blue seemed to work.

Depending on your tolerances you might not even need tape.

[derek45]

I made some paper cartridges for my pietta 1860 a few years ago

i used TOP brand rolling papers, what the gas station had

they didn’t burn well, left lots of smoldering paper in the chambers

i recently tried the method in ERAS GONE BULLET MOLDS video, coffee filters soaked in stump remover

this worked much better, i shot 30 rounds and they all burned up completely


https://youtu.be/AQAxp8dUiJQ
.

[GregLaROCHE]

I have made mine based on Capandball's video how to make paper cartridges, and yes I roll the paper on the dowel after using a square paper for the bottom...pour charge, drop ball on top. I did not change the ball in any way.

Here are pics: 1) the cartridge as dropped into the cylinder, 2) the ball, as rammed into the cylinder, and 3) thin ring of lead with some glue attached. It looks like the cigarette rolling paper (large Zig-Zag cut to shape) tears and comes up around the ball as it enters the throat. I will put some sort of grease over the cylinder and see how these shoot. One videographer stated that cigarette paper does not burn completely, and if that is the case, I will obtain the hair curler paper mentioned in some vids.

173392173393173394

If you shave off some lead, doesn’t it cut the paper too? Do you pack the cut off paper in on top?

[rancher1913]

doesnt matter if it cuts the paper, its already done its job. the paper just keeps everything together until you need it. the perm paper from hair salons work the best and seem to burn up better.

[Drydock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zx3Ph3xsak

Easy kit that works well.

[TheOutlawKid]

Idid a write up on making paper cartridges on page two of this forum listing.. Check it out if interested. Makes the best fit and performance paper cartridges after experimenting a whole lot with different designs and materials.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/31-36-and-44-ammo-box-labels.859019/page-2

[BlackPowderLove]

Excellent! I have been rolling both round ball and Johnston and Dows with paper and love the little cartridges. I have used both nitrated coffee filters and cig papers. Both seem to work well. I also made up some Faux historic packaging which has been fun!

IW

[archeryrob]

Wow, I just found this thread and I watched a youtuber with the hair wraps and copied that. I found it worked great and can't imagine having to go through all the trouble to nitrate papers. They are $3.50 a 1000 at the beauty supply store and I don;t bother with cutting them out and roll around a 2" taper from 11/32 to 1/2". 30 grains work better and a rub of cheap chap stick on the wool wad and stick the ball to it sprue up and drop in with tweezers. Without the chapstick the wad twists and the ball rotates. The guy I copied used sticky wads with veggie wads between the powder and it. My was seems easier. I tried a dab of bacon grease and it works but paper started ripping and figured it could wick to the powder if hot.

The 2" taper worked better with 30 grains as 21 I had to force the wad and ball down hard. A shorter taper would work better for the lighter load.
274812


Excellent! I have been rolling both round ball and Johnston and Dows with paper and love the little cartridges. I have used both nitrated coffee filters and cig papers.
What gun? Are the J&D conicals sliding in without having to modify the loading gate?

[derek45]

what brand of hair curler papers should i get from amazon ???

[ButchC]

Jumping in here, on the first page nitrocellulose based adhesives were mentioned. I'm currently very interested in New Skin first aid adhesive due to the ease of acquisition compared to collodion. I have used some to glue up some RAW rolling papers that I made a few cartridges out of. I'll be testing their "burn rates/completion" today. Eventually, I would like to assess the "enhancement" the nitrocellulose provides if used on a folded base of the cartridge where I have experienced some hang fires with multiple layers of paper.

My initial impressions are that so long as the adhesion of the paper holds up long term, you certainly won't lose anything to a glue stick and the small brush may be significantly easier to manipulate on such a small surface area.

More info soon....

[ButchC]

OK, results are in and they're not awesome.

On an open flat sheet the New Skin is a decent glue and holds cartridge paper just fine, takes a flame as easily as the paper and burns with more vigor, and after drying acts as a waterproofing of sorts.

On the mandrel you need to use so much NS to hold the wrap tension, that it seeps through the paper and begins to bind to the cartridge to the mandrel (mine is 3d printed and seems to transfer color to the paper) and that volume takes an unreasonable time to cure. Now my bottle has been open for years so perhaps lost some volatile solvents and this is contributing to the drying problem, I think they may sell a clove oil free version as well which may help so YMMV.

Going back to a problem I had with hang fire, I then assembled a cartridge as I had been with a glue stick and painted it with the NS. I was hoping for an accelerant effect and still got to hear the cap go off before the shot. The problem remains unsolved with that particular cartridge configuration.

Now as something to add water resistance and maybe durability to the cartridge, I don't think New Skin is going to hurt. Beyond that it's not ideal other than to patch up the hole the loading lever might leave in your palm jamming in a paper wrapped .454.

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[archeryrob]

what brand of hair curler papers should i get from amazon ???

TrueWave end papers (https://amzn.to/35DkeIs), your local beauty shop should have them.
275273

[derek45]

TrueWave end papers (https://amzn.to/35DkeIs), your local beauty shop should have them.
275273


thanks
i’ll see if my wife can get some

[bigted]

My path is going well with zig zag cig papers. I like the already gummed rice paper. Tough and yet easily ignited.

Mine also have the "tail" on them when I am finished. On the bottom of the taper, instead of a "cap" being glued on, I simply leave a bit left over and fold up on the tapered case.

Little trick I use is I begin my roll with my tapered mold being kitty cornered with the tapered end pointed at the gummed corner. This leaves a "pointed" tail on the small end which as said above, gets folded over onto the case body with the gummed tip glueing the tip onto the cartridge body.

Doing mine this way, I can "ROLL" many many in a short order. I can make tapered flat bottomed cartridges per 50 in about 1/2hour. Then powdering them and twisting the tail in another 1/2 hour.

Here is another place I differ from others. I learned that a company back in the day dunked the ball end in lube and this provides enough for what is needed. The lube consists of 6 or 7 parts bee wax to 1 part beef or venison tallow. Mine is 6 to 1 bee wax/beef tallow or plain old Vasoline. This lube crumbles a bit when loading ... but enables easy loading and lubricating enough to keep on shooting as long as I wish with good to great accuracy. And no mess.

As to unburned paper in the chambers ... I have them all the time with never a problem. They are not cumulative and the left bits get sucked out on the next shot.

When I do clean, I disassemble the revolver and soak the cylinder without the nipples in and of coarse the nipples and barrel in warm not hot water/Dawn dish soap. The bits of leftover paper soak out easy peasy with just the bore brush cleaning them out of the soaked cylinder.

All in all, I encourage piddlin with em till ya getz a system that works for YOU and your revolver'S.

BIG FUN!!!

[oldred]

May be a bit late to this party but I have something I would like to add that may be of interest, I have recently found what I think to be the perfect glue for making cartridges. "Duco" (made by Devcon and sold on Amazon) adhesive when dried burns even faster (a LOT faster) than properly nitrated paper thus leaving no residue after firing. Years ago I noticed that the glued parts of the paper seemed to be the main problem causing unburned residue but now I never have anything left in the chambers but normal fouling. Of course as others said at the start of this thread this unburned residue is not really a problem but for me I would much rather avoid it completely and now I manage to do just that.

As an added note to anyone trying to avoid the unburned residue proper paper is a must. Cigarette paper has been treated to burn slowly for obvious reasons and so would not be my first choice, they seem to work really good if someone doesn't care about unburned paper being left but for me I choose to use something that burns quickly and completely. Some time back I settled on nitrated coffee filters and the burn is so complete that now I use nothing else, the key to this is properly nitrating this paper. Some have said doing this is too much trouble and for some maybe so but really it's not hard to do at all nor is it complicated, stump remover (the KNO3 type!) and water is all that's needed. In a lot of discussions about nitrating paper the complaints we mostly see is the scaly residue left on the paper and extra gunk left after burning but these problems are very easy to avoid by using PROPERLY nitrated paper.

To use the very successful method I use to make clean burning nitrated paper you simply boil the water first (Boiling the water is a MUST to properly dissolve the KNO3!) then add the KNO3 to the hot boiled water, add only as much as will be dissolved and NO MORE than that, adding too much nitrate and using cold water are the two mistakes that causes the process to fail and lead to crusty, flaky and poorly burning paper. The paper itself need merely to be dunked in the solution for a minute or so then laid out to dry with no need to boil the paper itself, I did a lot of experimentation and found no advantage at all to boiling the paper in the solution as opposed to just dipping it in a cool solution. Boil a cup or two of water and add the nitrate then dip coffee filter paper and let dry, it really is as simple as that. If done right pieces of test paper will burn with a distinct hissing sound and if twisted tightly into a "roll" it will actually burn much faster than just a flat piece, applying the Duco adhesive and allowing it to dry you will find the glued parts to burn faster still and the glue will burn with no detectable residue!

One more thing, using a microwave oven is just fine for boiling the water but DON'T try to microwave the solution after KNO3 has been added!!! That is unless you would like to see fireworks in your oven, please don't ask how I know this. :roll:

[charlie b]

Thanks for the reminder on the nitrate process. FIL and I did it that way many years ago, but, I forgot about the boiling part. We used cigarette papers and plastic model cement (not sure if it is the same formula these days).

He also experimented with 'white' powder instead of black, but, never got the cake/corn process to work right.

[oldred]

The Duco brand seems to be the same as or very similar to old type plastic model cement and it will dissolve/soften some plastics just like the old stuff, for sure it burns very aggressively wet or dry.

[a.squibload]

"Dowel rod"?
I used a stick.

Forgot you're supposed to trim the paper, I use the "end papers" at an angle, glue the point to the side,
drop a lubed wad (beeswax & crisco) on top of the powder, drop in ball, long twist for a handle, works fine.
Easy to clean up later.

[oldred]

I have been wondering about the twisted end method since I had never done it that way myself but seems like so far here there have only been good things said about it. When you say "long twist for a handle" I am assuming you mean on the bullet end? A twist on both ends maybe? Would seem that with a properly fitting bullet the paper would be sheared off so it could then be thrown away, is that your method? Since I started using that adhesive I mentioned above I don't bother with "capping" the bottom of the paper tube anymore, I simply wrap the paper around the dowel and leave enough on the bottom to fold over (I leave just enough paper for the fold to seal the end) and then put a drop of adhesive on that folded end. The glue when dried makes for a fairly hard bottom end and with the stiff glued seam it ends up being a much more durable cartridge than when using the stick glue and bottom cap made from a disk of cigarette or coffee filter paper. It might seem like it would cause ignition problems with that hard glued and folded bottom but when it's done that way using the Duco glue I have yet to have a problem with ignition using that method.

Duco glue completely changed the way I look at doing paper cartridges, before with curling or cigarette papers I would always have bits of unburned paper left in the chambers and while that doesn't seem to really be a problem I just felt it would be better if all the paper was burned. Switching to the nitrated coffee filter paper almost solved the problem but test burning some of the cartridge tubes showed that the glued areas appear to have difficulty with burning completely but the Duco glue solved that.

[charlie b]

Your experiences are the same as what we had.

One thing we did a little different sometimes was to just put the powder in the paper. Load paper/powder separate from bullet. We only shot round ball so not too big a deal.

[a.squibload]

I have been wondering about the twisted end method since I had never done it that way myself but seems like so far here there have only been good things said about it. When you say "long twist for a handle" I am assuming you mean on the bullet end? A twist on both ends maybe? Would seem that with a properly fitting bullet the paper would be sheared off so it could then be thrown away, is that your method? Since I started using that adhesive I mentioned above I don't bother with "capping" the bottom of the paper tube anymore, I simply wrap the paper around the dowel and leave enough on the bottom to fold over (I leave just enough paper for the fold to seal the end) and then put a drop of adhesive on that folded end. The glue when dried makes for a fairly hard bottom end and with the stiff glued seam it ends up being a much more durable cartridge than when using the stick glue and bottom cap made from a disk of cigarette or coffee filter paper. It might seem like it would cause ignition problems with that hard glued and folded bottom but when it's done that way using the Duco glue I have yet to have a problem with ignition using that method.

Duco glue completely changed the way I look at doing paper cartridges, before with curling or cigarette papers I would always have bits of unburned paper left in the chambers and while that doesn't seem to really be a problem I just felt it would be better if all the paper was burned. Switching to the nitrated coffee filter paper almost solved the problem but test burning some of the cartridge tubes showed that the glued areas appear to have difficulty with burning completely but the Duco glue solved that.

Yeah I fold the powder end & glue it to the side (like you do), then when all the stuff is in it I twist the ball end,
sticks out an inch or more like a handle to pull it out of the cartridge box. Shove the cartridge in the cylinder, put a
finger on the ball & tear off the twist. It doesn't tear clean but gets sheared off anyway when seating the ball.
I find unburned paper sometimes but it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Charlie b: sounds like a good idea, was thinking of doing that for the Hawken, wind won't blow the powder away.