Enfield No 1 Mk V what for value?

[RogerDat]

I picked up an Enfield, mostly because the bore and price were both good. Looks like I picked up a No. 1 Mk V in fairly decent condition but not complete. I think it is restorable if original parts are located or fabricated. Or could even have non-original parts used from other models until originals could be located just to look nicer for a trip to the range.

My problem is I am not the guy to restore a collectable rifle and since so few are sold, and most of those are either unissued or fully restored condition I'm having trouble figuring a price to list it for sale at. Appraising a rifle from pictures is not possible but what I am looking for is a range or base price / min bid for an auction.

I know some stuff about these rifles but am no expert so those with more knowledge feel free to correct my mistakes, especially my observations in parenthesis ( ).

Bore looks good, and action appears to function. I'm going to test fire a primer only case.

Barrel is 25 and a fraction inches, looks like full length with original sight front and rear.
Top hand guard rear piece has what looks like armory patch to thin slot where a Mk 1 would normally have the rear sight. Mk V rear peep sight appears original.
Magazine is after market, but a No 1 Mk 3 magazine is the same as original.
The hole for the brass medallion in the stock is there but someone put a 1969 quarter in it.
Missing forward hand guard. (one of the changes to Mk V is 2 piece top hand guard, may be able to make from No 1 top or No 4 forward piece may fit. I don't know for sure)
Missing forward barrel band with stacking swivel ( forward band is difference, stacking swivel is on nose cap for No 1 model)
Missing nose cap. (should be without stacking swivel found on No 1's)
I think the fore stock bottom is trimmed, unless it is two piece and parts under the band as the top does. (I think bottom is same as No. 1) I suppose could also be jungle carbine lower as they appear to have about the same shape. Length might help determine.


1). Nice enough looking you can see why I bought it.
173224
2). The ShtLE and V
173225
3). Rear Flip and Overview
173226
4). Closer view
173227
5). Proof mark and removed sight.
173228
6). Two piece top guard at strap swivel band. Zoom for barrel external condition (typical of whole)
173229


For those who have not heard of this model it was a troop trial done between WW1 and WW2 to assess changes to the No 1 Mk3 to improve it. approx. 20,000 were produced but a decision was made to create a new model with the features rather than retrofit the No 1's. The new model became the No 4 used in WW2. The Mk V's were not really issued, and many were scrapped. Today they are mostly in museums or private collections. The No. 1 Mk V is the bones of a Mk 1 with some features that became the No. 4 so an interesting piece of the Enfield history.

[curator]

I believe the Brits made something like 22,000 No.1MkV "trials" rifles in 1922-1924. Parts for these guns are available but you will have to do some serious searching. Try Lee Enfield/British militaria websites. There are a couple of collector/restoration experts on the other side of the pond who can find or make the wood front barrel band and nose cap. Chopped as it is it should be worth $300. Restored probably 3X this.

[RogerDat]

I believe the Brits made something like 22,000 No.1MkV "trials" rifles in 1922-1924. Parts for these guns are available but you will have to do some serious searching. Try Lee Enfield/British militaria websites. There are a couple of collector/restoration experts on the other side of the pond who can find or make the wood front barrel band and nose cap. Chopped as it is it should be worth $300. Restored probably 3X this.

Appreciate the feed back.

I found one complete that appears to have been blued and stock sanded / refinished with minimum bid of $999. Being offered for sale at a price does not establish a market price unless someone buys it but it does sort of agree with you higher estimate. There is another listed at $1,400 minimum. At the least I can maybe snag some pictures from the description so I'll have a clear idea of what it should look like.

On the low side I'm a bit skeptical. The price of $300 is down around auction price of sporterized model of a No. 1 or No. 4, with maybe $50 premium. For an $80 nose cap & $100 worth of furniture from a No. 1 Mk 3 it would be the equal of a decent Mk 3. I may just go that route. If it shoots well. Least look decent for a trip to the range. I could consider looking for original parts too. My thinking is re-manufactured would be great but won't satisfy a collector and cost lots of money. The less than $200 to fix it to look like a decent Mk 3 is possibly in my budget, eventually. The price of those custom made parts is not.

As I said I am not the guy to do restoration. My budget is usually spoken for on things I will actually use. I buy it so I can shoot it, or make stuff so I can shoot. At least most of the time. I do have a couple of Enfields one stock and one sporterized I like shooting and having them, I don't however collect firearms. Most I might do toward restoration is some wood or metal work to make a common No 3 or 4 part more like the original. Only if I thought I could do it without messing up the part I bought or the part was inexpensive enough to make a screw up no big deal. Would like to keep the top stock 2 piece so I would consider cutting a 1 piece Mk 3 to make that missing front top piece, if they seemed close.

Probably need to visit someone that knows these stocks and parts well to figure all that out.

Again thanks for the feed back, as I said most offered are in restored or high condition so figuring out a price to offer it at when missing some parts was sort of a stumper.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

One big piece of luck is that the stock seems unaltered from the barrel band backwards. A new front end could be spliced in, with the join covered by the band. That isn't at all difficult for the amateur to do, and for a rifle as desirable as this - it's very desirable - it would be worth buying a complete front stock to make the missing front end. That part isn't in this list, but most others are, and there is little that can't be made from other SMLE parts.

http://www.brpguns.com/smle-no-1-mk-3-stock-magazine-parts/

[curator]

RogerDat,

I found my previous source for MkV parts: http://www.efdrifles.com/other_parts.php

These guys claim to be Enfield specialists and can find or make everything to restore your MkV to mostly original condition. Check them out!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Curator's link is extremely valuable. Another point worth making is that as a trials rifle the stock disc, now replaced by a coin, may well have been blank or even missing. Faking a blank piece of metal is different from faking one with writing on.

Here is one which went at auction for only $479.04, although that was twelve years ago, and interest in military firearms has perked up quite a bit since then. You would certainly pay many times that for a P13 trials rifle. But these things go beyond money. We have all spent time and money on commonplace guns which in financial terms work out worse than stacking supermarket shelves. This is one which looks at you like a puppy in a petshop and says "Restore me."

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/6147681

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the links and encouragement.
I'll do some checking and see what I can work out. I would love to be the one to "bring it back" but I know I don't want to be in a position of misrepresenting the results. I know some folks only value 100% original. Not in my budget to spend $200 on a part so the only approach that will work for me is to do what I can that I can economically hope to recover.

I find checking out the differences with the Mk V neat and interesting but when it comes to desirable I would have wished for a good reproduction of an Enfield muzzle loader at a good price. :-)

[m.chalmers]

Stick it in No1 MkIII wood. That is what was done for WWII. Tons of them look like yours, I had ten like her. They came from Springfield Sporters in the early 80's. Was told they came out of India.

Now, in truth she is worth more parted out. The sight brings big $$$ for the guys that bought the Golden State Arms ones in the late 60's early 70's.

Good luck!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Roger: I'm not going to be quite so giddy over this rifle. It is definitely a Mk5, but it has been sporterized by Bubba. There are some parts available but spending the money on them to put the gun back to stock, in that guns condition, is not going to be worth the trouble or expense, and especially since you can't do the work.

The gun is worth $200-300 as is. Just the replacement wood will cost more than that. Magazines are not cheap either. add in all the piece parts you need to complete for another $150 or so and you've got another $500 in the gun beyond what you paid for it.. The gun,, in the shape it is in,,, if it was complete and original,,, would only be worth $300-400 depending on who saw it.

I have another solution: Why not clean it up and shoot it? I know you have the stuff to load .303's and I have been shooting my #4Mk1 for the last two years at Long Range Silhouette matches and having a great time with it. That way you can get some enjoyment out of the gun instead of worrying about exactly how much it is worth which nobody can tell you for sure, as it is such an obscure piece, in fair condition, that only someone who knows about it would appreciate. It is not a collectors piece by any means, and making it back into one is not financially feasible. I might add that if it is restored it is no longer a "Collectors Piece", as it is no longer original.

I have seen 3 of these guns in the last year and all were in about the same condition as yours.

Just shoot it and enjoy it .

Randy

[RogerDat]

Since wife's motor vehicle front end needed work I won't be doing much of anything for a bit. Struts, Control Arm, Ball Joint and set of tires pretty much sucked the life out of my cash stash. I do plan on shooting it. Pretty much count on that happening at least once. :razz:

I might find someone that wants to swap a side lock percussion rifle that I want for this rifle at a gun show. I have a No 1 and a No 4 so it might be fun to see what running through a full mag with all three of them at once is like with a couple of the kids. Should be noisy if nothing else. Noisy is good. There is also a possibility of finding someone that needs the parts to complete their own. I would not mind seeing that happen. I just don't like the idea of it become another wasted rifle brought to you by Bubba.

I was looking at a Zouve reproduction with damaged stock, crack all the way across behind the breech from lock to off side. Did not buy because asking price plus new stock was too high. Might see if we can do some horse trading next time there is a show he will be at. I normally don't need another project but if I get the Zoli with a little something to sweeten the deal.... I could live with that.

I appreciate the information, even though it does not all agree. I now know that some place above $250 is a minimum with a max that is probably not over $400 and high end price would be unexpected (crazy people don't tend to have cash money). So I won't lose money, might make a little which as we all know is better than a sharp stick in the eye. The one thing that could bugger it all up. If it shoots really well. Hard to get rid of an accurate rifle, especially one that I have molds and dies to load for.

[303Guy]

As Randy has said. But just having a fairly rare specimen, albeit not in original condition, just has to be a plus. Shoot it like it is and enjoy what it is.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Roger: the trick with Bubba'd guns is to be a better Bubba than they were. I took my #4Mk1 that I paid $200 for and turned it into this See pic; which is certainly worth a lot more than I paid.

Nothing beyond some clean up and refinishing work done here.

Your gun is a prime candidate for such a make over.

Randy

[Adam Helmer]

I agree with W. R. Buchanan about "Bubba Guns." I bought my first military surplus arm in 1958 at age 13 for $13.88 in company with my parents. I bought many more since 1958 and all but one stayed "as issued." I foolishly cut the lower forend of a No.4 Mk1 to "sporterize" it in 1959 due to the current craze to cut down military arms for hunting. Happily, for $3.50 plus $1.20 postage, I bought a replacement lower forend and all is well in my collection.

Many "Bubbaed" military arms can be restored if the ONLY issue was the discarding of handguards, sling swivels, forend caps, etc. If the barrels were cut or the receivers drilled, then all one has is a "boat anchor" in my humble opinion when serious military arms collectors look at an arm.

Adam

[m.chalmers]

This nose cap is the hardest part to find, as the sight an first ban are repro'd. I haven't seen a nose cap in the wild for 15 years.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lee-enfield-NO1-MkV-trials-rifle-nose-cap-broad-arrow-marked-/262563092969?hash=item3d21fad9e9:g:bzQAAOSwtnpXjls E

Not mine an I might buy it.

[Adam Helmer]

RogerDat,


What nose cap do you need? If it is the MkIII type, please advise. I may have one somewhere in my stash.

I may also have some sling bands and swivels. At age 71, I may not need all my stash much longer.

Adam

[mcdaniel.mac]

Roger: the trick with Bubba'd guns is to be a better Bubba than they were. I took my #4Mk1 that I paid $200 for and turned it into this See pic; which is certainly worth a lot more than I paid.

Nothing beyond some clean up and refinishing work done here.

Your gun is a prime candidate for such a make over.

Randy
May i ask what's on the muzzle in the last photo? At first I thought it was a suppressor quickmount, but looking closer it looks wrong for that.

[m.chalmers]

RogerDat,


What nose cap do you need? If it is the MkIII type, please advise. I may have one somewhere in my stash.

I may also have some sling bands and swivels. At age 71, I may not need all my stash much longer.

Adam

He has a trials rifle. SMLE Mark V. Production amounting to 20,000 between 1922-1924. If the OP wants to bring her back to glory he "needs" the nose cap I posted. "But" the OP could put her in No I Mk III wood, as the MOD did that for repairs. IE: After the evacuation of Dunkirk anything that could shoot was pulled from storage. Also, on the old Gun an Knife Enfield forum. Pictures of the Mk V in Indian service showed the wood cut back.

Shoot the old girl!

[m.chalmers]

May i ask what's on the muzzle in the last photo? At first I thought it was a suppressor quickmount, but looking closer it looks wrong for that.

The "lugs" are for the "spike" bayonet. Also known as a "pig sticker" or "tent peg" the Bayonet No 4 Mk I (No 4 Mk I-III). Bayonets No 7 and No 9 will also fit.

[mcdaniel.mac]

The "lugs" are for the "spike" bayonet. Also known as a "pig sticker" or "tent peg" the Bayonet No 4 Mk I (No 4 Mk I-III). Bayonets No 7 and No 9 will also fit.

I didn't know Enfields ever had a spike bayonet! Learn something every day. The only Enfield I ever owned was a badly bubba'd model with nasty wood and a poorly cut down barrel. Shot decent though.

[W.R.Buchanan]

A lot of the bubba'd #4's from Canada have the Barrels cut off just behind the Bayonet Lugs. The primary reason is to get rid of a gooned muzzle from over zealous cleaning.

My other Enfield is a #4 Mk1* Long Branch made in Canada. it had been bubba'd by Parker Hale as well but it was made into a Deluxe Sporter as opposed to the gun shown which was a Standard Sporter. It had the barrel cut to 22" a new Front Sight added and sling swivels installed. It also had one of the 2 groove barrels, which in my case got bored out and rifled to .35-303.

I surmised that the "Deluxe Guns" had particularly bad muzzles to begin with so the plan was to chop off all the offending portion of the barrel and re-crown at 22" and act like they planned it that way. All the while taking the worst guns and making them sell higher than ones with good barrels that didn't need to be chopped. The barrel on my #4Mk1 is perfect. I paid less than $200 ea. for both of them.

These guns make really good shooters and as far as a knock around hunting rifle or a survival gun you couldn't ask for anything better.

They are stone cold reliable and simple to maintain and any of them will easily out live all of us and our kids and their kids.

Mistreatment or the Govt are the only enemies they have.

Randy

[RogerDat]

This nose cap is the hardest part to find, as the sight an first ban are repro'd. I haven't seen a nose cap in the wild for 15 years.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/lee-enfield-NO1-MkV-trials-rifle-nose-cap-broad-arrow-marked-/262563092969?hash=item3d21fad9e9:g:bzQAAOSwtnpXjls E

Not mine an I might buy it.

Well I bought the nose cap, really appreciate the heads up and the link. I may regret it... but it certainly won't be the worst use of $55 I have ever made, doubt I will get a hangover from it either. One big step closer to getting this rifle looking right. I figure at the least over time I can if not restore this one as a collectors item I can at least make it look closer to original without hurting the value or losing my shirt on the price of parts.

I don't mind sporterized done nice, would like to put a scope on the No 1 Mk 3 I already had that was converted to a sport model I bought it that way, think I paid maybe $70 for it at a pawn shop decades back. Nice rifle. Abusive kick due to the reduced weight, not an issue with my own loads which I can lighten up a bit.

For the Mk 5 I need a front band with the stacking swivel which is not on other models and front wood for a No 1 Mk 3 so I can splice it on top (it was I think supposed to be 2 piece top in the Mk 5) and replace the lower so that it comes to the end so I can attach that nose cap.

Not an authority but as I understand it the wood was close to the Mk 3 and the difference at the nose was the cap did not have the snap for stacking on the underside, which was instead on an additional front band right behind the nose cap.

Adam I will be sending you a PM and see what might be possible, appreciate the offer. As well as appreciate the good thoughts and advice from everyone.

[RogerDat]

I am also be missing this plate.
My reading indicates it has or does not have a hole on different models, but I don't see the part on this rifle, just a slot. What is it and what does it do? Is it called a stop plate?

174547

PS Not my rifle just a picture from the internet showing the missing piece, swung out on the right side.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's a magazine cutoff, so that the rifle could be used as a single shot with the contents of the magazine in reserve. Normally it would be pushed in, but when the wave of fuzzy-wuzzies attacked you'd pull it outward in the position shown and use the rifle as a repeater. Present on all L.E.s until the No.I Mk.III*, and the asterisk indicates it's elimination among other minor changes.

[RogerDat]

That's a magazine cutoff, so that the rifle could be used as a single shot with the contents of the magazine in reserve. Normally it would be pushed in, but when the wave of fuzzy-wuzzies attacked you'd pull it outward in the position shown and use the rifle as a repeater. Present on all L.E.s until the No.I Mk.III*, and the asterisk indicates it's elimination among other minor changes.

I sort of wondered if it wasn't for something like that, the hole through it I had seen described as a viewing hole to check magazine. So I would be looking for a magazine cutoff for a No 1 Mk 3. No wonder people took them off, would serve no purpose in a hunting rifle.

Have found them a couple of places online, so it looks like that is findable. Even if not original Mk 5 part, they are available for the Mk 3.
Any part suppliers for Enfields to avoid? Poor quality or slow delivery etc.

[RogerDat]

Good grief EFD rifles wants 485 GBP for a new made sight! That would be over $630 us dollars!
That front band right behind the nose cap is $115 and they are changing source for the wood stock parts so prices and availability are sort of up in the air right now. All are out of stock.

Lot of parts suppliers list Mk. 1 No. 3 wood but so far nothing has been in stock so I'm still looking. I figure magazine cut off, used wood, and nose cap (already bought on eBay) should be enough to get from sporter to military. Will have to think long and hard about that front band @ $115.

The price on the remade rear site being over $600 does make me wonder if the earlier post on selling this one as parts to finish out others doesn't make better financial sense.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The stacking swivel, also known as the piling swivel, is very similar to those fitted on some Martini-Henrys and, I think, the Long Lee-Enfield. Here is a possible source for these:

http://www.martinihenry.org/index.php?route=product/category&path=63_69

The front band may be the same as the other one, and very likely there is something that could be altered. Even if it couldn't be, most of could make one. It as amazing how your talents catch up when something is going to cost £585.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Or you could just clean it up and shoot it.

AS far as the brutal Kick just go to Walmart and buy a medium sized Limbsaver Slip On Recoil Pad. it makes the gun a cream Puff to shoot for $20.

Randy