PC and cast boolit swage dies?

[BT Sniper]

Taking your cast boolits and swaging them in a swage die is very easy and by all accounts should aid to the accuracy potential you guys might be looking for from your PC boolits.

The challenge is typically these swage dies are of a nominal diameter appropriate for jacketed bullets. For example a 44 cal swage die is typically about .4290" for jacketed bullets and I would imagine you guys would be looking for a 44 cal cast boolit to be about .4310" in diameter so swage dies where not really of much use to the cast boolit shooters.

Well I had been doing a bit of research on the new PC ventures and think I might have something that may be worth a try to a select few that are interested. I have been making swage dies now for many years and on occasion I get a die that finishes too big in diameter after final polish and lap, I can not offer these dies to customers that wish to make jacketed bullets as they may be a half thousandth too big but these dies may be perfect to the cast boolit shooter that wishes to swage their cast boolit before powder coating (and potentially after too) for more consistent boolits and greater accuracy potential as well as a perfect hollow point too!

I have had customers swage their lubed cast boolits and do very well in the national level shooting competitions but have yet to see anyone swage there cast boolits before or after powder coating them. I would certainly think there is potential for great things coming from a swaged lead boolit.

Here is a look at a .4305" swage die I have and some 240 grain 44 cal cast boolits I reworked in this swage die. I simply painted the three colored swaged boolits to give you all an idea of what they could look like.

http://i.imgur.com/z9FkzlOl.jpg

I have a few of these dies offered right now on the swap and sell forms.

Good shooting!

BT

[SierraHunter]

If I remember correctly, from what I have read, powder coating adds a thousands or two to the over all bullet diameter anyway. So on say a .451" swage die, if they were seated before coating the finished product would end up at .452" or .453" anyway. If coated and then staged, I could see where the custom die could be useful, although I'm not sure that the coating would stay on during the swaging process.

[Spector]

Pretty sure it would stay on just fine post baked. Look at the powder coating after it is passed through a boolit sizing die. Smooth as a baby's butt.

Mike

[fredj338]

If it stays on during sizing, then it should under swaging??

[Dragonheart]

So as to understand, is your idea of swagging a bullet to create a more symmetrical and uniform projectile than can is typically achieved by casting?

I have a number of PC cast handgun loads that will post groups in the 1-1/2" range at 25 yards, which would be considered excellent handgun accuracy. It would be interesting to see if accuracy could be improved with swagged projectiles, especially for rifle bullets.

As far as the powder coating I can assure you it should bond and stay on the alloy as it is harder and tougher than the underlying alloy. I typically size the raw alloy bullets to uniform and reduce the diameter so they will accept a thicker coating before sizing. The PC is for all practical purposes a polymer jacket and acts as such, and like a copper jacket, thicker is better. Also like a jacketed bullet the inner core can be much softer as the projectile is riding on the jacket. A coating of .002+" build out from the substrate is what I go for.

I do find you idea interesting.

[RP]

If you can beat a PC bullet flat and it stays on swaging a PC bullet should not be any problem.

[Smk SHoe]

Once you PC, would the PC swag down to size with the lead core? I would guess that the PC has a little flexibility during the swag process, but would it spring back to original size and just leave the core swaged. I understand it's only a couple thou of an inch so may not be a issue, just thinking out loud.

[Dragonheart]

Once the PC bullet is sized it holds the size. The coating is harder that than the alloy and yet flexible and tougher than copper. The polymer bonds at the molecular level when cured and the chemical properties alter considerably. The bond is the reason when the guys pound coated bullets flat you have a colored piece of alloy. The photo shows how well bonded the coating is, also how flexible. The polymer jacket resist the torque of spin up which causes core failure in plated bullets, a reason for plated 1200 fps maximum velocity. The polymer jacket remains bonded to velocities in excess of 3K fps that I know of. As far as the polymer withstanding swagging I don't think that is an issue, my question is anything gained by swagging instead of casting as it would be a slower process.
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[B. Lumpkin]

Swaged bullets will be more uniform.

[Traffer]

This may be a stupid question as I am a noob. I am swaging 22lr and am going to Powder Coat them mainly because I swage a deep hollow base in them. Is is possible to get a deep hollow base without swaging?

[2wheelDuke]

I think this idea got some real potential. I wonder if that's what Hornandy is doing with theirs.

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[KingRat]

I think this idea got some real potential. I wonder if that's what Hornandy is doing with theirs.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
The Hornady bullets have a dimple in the base same as many plated bullets that have been restriked/Swaged to size.

I think they swage them after coating and that is how they get that perfect surface.

[uncle dino]

Swaging bullets that have been powder coated works extremely well..but it is best to bump up size of bullet rather than draw it down with a swage die. With good bond of pc a .020 bump up should be no problem. D

[Dragonheart]

Swaged bullets will be more uniform.

I agree a more uniform bullet is going to be a better balanced bullet and therefore more accurate bullet. However, I think the validity of this assumption will be better proven with rifle bullets.

[Smoke4320]

Dragonheart
Funny you should say that .. I am working with BR Sniper to soon begin testing of this very fact..
he is looking for a die that will fit our project .. Then I will be swaging bullets and shooting targets to test if we can in fact prove more consistent/accurate bullets .. swaged bullet results will be posted here along with non-swaged for all to see

I have posted many targets on here of my Groups so there is nothing to hide

[RP]

Heck all of us need to do some testing BT start sending out dies lol

[Wolftracker]

I swage them, reduce to about .4505 coat, then bump them back up to .4525. Works great and they come out slick and shiny. I could probably skip the reduction but it let's me bump the PC'd bullets up to get that perfect finish and consistency. No problem with the PC staying on. Also works with pure soft lead bullets.

[Meatpuppet]

Brian, if you ever have a die that sized over to .358/359, I would be interested.

I have been following this post with a lot of interest. My son and I shoot USPSA and I usually have 10k or so 9mm ACME 147gr (No lube groove) Hi-Tek on hand for reloading on a progressive press. I dont think it would be unreasonable to "bump up" the 9mm from .356 to .358/.359 for use as plinking loads in my .357 pistols and lever action.

BTW.. I finally got the hang of using your .458 SOCOM and 44 mag swage dies. Makin' them is as fun as shooting them.

[popper]

IMHO swaging raw boolits then PC, then size would be best. How are long ogive boolits handled - nose punch as the piston? How about GC shank? Does coating allow easier removal from the die? How hard an alloy can be used without a monster press? Several of us have tossed the idea around in the last few years (for 30 cal) but you are the first to experiment, to my knowledge.

[Meatpuppet]

I would think that as far as (relatively) low pressure rounds such as 9mm go, as long as the PC coating along the driving band stays intact, it would not matter much. The ojive and metplat could distort and rupture the PC coat, but it would not make a practical difference for plinkin. I know Ive loaded soem pretty poorly casted bullets and they shot suprisingly well. For match grade accuracy, there might be a problem.

I'm new to swaging so I don't know how much effort would be needed to "bump" a round a few thousand vs. swaging a virgin round.

...but I'm willing to learn.

[Meatpuppet]

“Bumping” Project

First off, you would probably be better off just buying a .357 projectile. That being said, since I have a metric butt-load of 9mm 147gr projectiles, why not “bump” them up in a .357 swage die. This way I can reduce inventory and make plinking rounds for .357 as well as swaging jacketed bullets.

Hat tip to BTSniper for planting this seed in my head (curse him!). I am using his Truncated Cone and Hollowpoint swage dies for this experiment.

I started off with ACME 147gr NLG-FP sized .355 dia. According to their website, the lead used is 92-6-2 lead for a Brinell Hardness (BHN) of 16. While point forming them to a Truncated Cone in the swage die was completetly successful and required almost no force on a Sea Girt press, the Hi-tek coating was cracked and stripped off many of the rounds. I tried lubing with swage lube, Hornady One Shot and HBN Powder as a lube. I scrapped the ACME bullets as a dead end.

I then tried The Blue Bullets 147gr (actually 150gr weight) Round Nose sized .355. According to their website, the bullet is “Hardball lead (92-6-2) that we purchase from a foundry.” Thier coating is a “proprietary polymer based liquid coating that we mix in house (not a powder coating.) It is applied twice and left to dry in between.” It is really tough and flexable. The bullets withstood point forming from a round nose to a Truncated Cone and also a Hollowpoint without any degredation of the coating. If you see small white streaks, that is because I used some Hex Boron Nitride (HBN) powder as a lubricant before I discovered that the coating did not require any lube to point form it. The bumped up rounds all measure .3575 to .358 in diameter after point forming.

I’m going to load it first in .38 Special brass for a ‘Proof of Concept” and do some group shooting to see if this is even worth pursuing further. I have friends that shoot the Blue Bullet 9mm 115gr and 125gr bullets up to 1500fps in USPSA "Open Division" guns without problems. I'm sure .357 velocities will be fine. I'll follow up once I get some data.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/C5Dzxbulatv_JS6LRiJF2Sa6lEMSI8gr1qxbNdtgzWAA_WkX72 ARLnCtuMwP833_puvUZs5fDi9P95t9JKMqmo2PaUC3UYppKJ3l UplRiQSDfrhHnf-l4WXb1FBrV1mT_yeWIRCZ


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/TRGNXP7V9xwHCwJEQ0u0VOp0XbO6LztubSnNv6tDhbqcaVARTS mfp7tmHuqzn97mPmiP3U6NTCGpOHKlH_gsZAsWZMGCy4vOG8CW e73xu_-cfwAWpoRLO8Ijse1uhH1ziJVGN0X6

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TvEbnle53vB07L3ShJoXUHCnW9KUGX_RxCDpVhz9glmdUrzkw-jTmVzftUHED_XXQ-oAtW1C8ZE-n2wK1fE_aiyZqQvvbbye1wqxMM1fa0of6qB3bNzaCPQI6InDVp jfy28cLFY-

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/i7PRRF9RW0PFeb7Y-iAZNd3zYCC8ocpw-r-Ij4AJ7y2MIrXGBksREAkSFad6OL35fbdtYnrhucKYNQFq8U8t8 QHQjfpoG9_saYj3rtryRqA16bwIQcW2qC_3HfXEtdmPEFsrjw2 9

[Traffer]

It is exciting to be around at this stage of development. As with everyone else, I wish I was able to buy all kinds of swaging dies to experiment with. But will have to watch as you folks develop it. I have fun working with 22lr. Been doing pretty much the same thing with them. Swage and powder coat. Because the pressure is much lower for these guys, I can make my own tools, keeping the cost down. Eventually going to do 22 WMR. After I get all the kinks ironed out of the long rifles. I believe that powder coating is going to dominate the pistol bullet world in the future.

[Dragonheart]

As far as handguns I have already loads for both 9 mm & 45 ACP using standard powder coated bullets that will group 1-1/2" or less at 25 yards. Reducing the group size here with swaged bullets is interesting, but probably not very practical for volume, as I PC 300+ bullets at a time and a push through die makes them load ready pretty quick.

But what I am interested in would be swaging rifle bullets, because out of the mold bulets are not concentric. The band sizing and nose sizing in a separate operations have done made the concentricity even worse. Also regular sizing is moving metal to the base creating a non-flat base. So far a swage to address the entire bullet is the only answer I can see for consistent full power accuracy in rifles.

I think this is going to take a minim of two swage dies, one to undersize the raw alloy to allow a build out of the polymer. Since rifling is approximately .004" deep, if polymer is to act as a jacket it is going to take multiple coats to get enough thickness, like a copper jacket. So I am guessing the final swage die will need to allow approximately .003" build out from the substrate.

[popper]

out of the mold boolits are not concentric. My concern would be that the swage die isn't any better due to machining tolerances. Blue Bullets must have changed their formulation, tried them a couple years ago, really leaded my XD 40 and boolits were soft, so was coating. The HiTek problem is what I'd expect, it is more brittle/hard than PC. I've been playing around with methods to control PC thickness - not a problem in itself but it would move/displace alloy when sized/swaged - which could be a problem. Therefore I suspect swaging uncoated would give better rifle performance.

[Dragonheart]

Yes, moving metal with regular sizing is what I have experienced also; when pushed in from the sides the metal has to go somewhere. One thing that could help is molds made for powder coating. At the present every mold, even those touted for coating, is already several thousandths over a good starting point for powder coating.

[Meatpuppet]

“Bumping” Project - Part 2

It has been a bit of a delay in moving forward with the “Bumping” project. However, I believe the initial testing revealed the project is fundamentally sound. Due to life events, a hurricane and several BBQ events involving large amounts of alcohol, I could not get to my club range to do a thorough test for accuracy and chronograph the ammo. This was a hasty test at a local indoor range.

Just to refresh your memory, this project was an attempt to “Bump” 9mm (.355) coated projectiles into .357 ammo for general range and fun plinking. I am using “The Blue Bullets” 147gr Round Nose (actually 150gr) coated lead projectiles and BT Sniper Hollowpoint and Truncated Cone point form dies for this. My initial loads were using 38 special brass to prove or disprove the concept. Since it is a success, I will move up to Magnum brass/velocity soon.

I shot all of the rounds at 15 yards, unsupported and double action using a well worn S&W 686 .357 Magnum with a 4” barrel that I only clean using a boresnake and brake cleaner spray. I used Vihtavuori N320 powder and CCI #500 Small Pistol Primers. I only used enough crimp to take the flare out of the brass from bullet seating. There was no noticeable leading after the test.

Some concrete takeaways of the project:



Hopefully, I will never have to rely on my wheel gun skills to save my life.
As the powder charge/velocity increased, the accuracy increased.
The Truncated Cone appears to be more accurate than the HP
This is plenty accurate for plinking ammo.


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_PiuIe1mwVWXSlscPNflWsgRyGAd1ckLw5oYx7LivjDOznwRE2 U_w7AoAdWZMOzZSbuohgLfEU8udD7qnfi8r-0tgHwb_jw66ub7gVW5RW2VzZCBhmlD2GrRPojvFfucp1JD_XDy


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/nNuSEqDKFhyd4xNGzpFgcqEhtQvw9UWOHyFxwzXN5HNDc_kB6t A27r9ttAph05PsOY_cUpbr7Wuarhj3WjfOsB5FcwOk_SzC4j_n dL4az-dxetHyZpJknxv25eenz67VqaYG_772


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Obly-HTH2p5oJ_yFgwcnVes_qdmz8di1OgKKuePLqQ0_-EKN3yNyU0k8d6yty5g2SKrkmYwodlEzHPWEpyMyVkrjkj_O93u GQAkUu0nELfu1NPpRWtQjRbqbEKnBn5yTCRuEei7q


https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/iGSucr4oJO5RkNQz8enjbNdyQv7DhfhxtT6CpNTKrQwU_jAicV Tub9zGAeXNm7ZYz1o7Z9EvCvmANiMInZHt29znbFy7bog3Ai5l 8gec1jvD90_Dvom5E2R4cOzkACz5t2fcUhWU


https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/beJll5Taqxuk0uC81FTbU10z-AWtSbi8WG19SNKLuY6yfcU7uTdMmqCQ_1UhYykbaijXWX9WO-sXkBDMcp2Fh0FisNK804NvRtj8YGb4rBG8SsJCMkeeSoJKzEVF c1dcQcktdb9z
This is actually .357 bullets swaged from 9mm Brass using a .311 dia/93gr core and they come out weighing 150gr.

[Dragonheart]

Meatpuppet, I guess I do not understand the need to swage the .355 to increase the diameter, if you are willing to PC them. I would suggest a preheat of the bullets under 200 degrees (verified with an accurate thermometer) then tumble them. The preheating will allow the alloy to take on more powder. One or two coats should get the buildout you are looking for.

As an alternative bullets can be preheated to the 350-400 degree range then sprayed, the powder will stick and melt in on contact, take care to spray even coats. This method allows you to measure the coating, after it cools, as it will lay on a thicker coat.

Once coated, simple push through sizing is all that is needed. If you happen to have sizing dies in .356, .357, .358 you could size between coats as the sizing works hardens the polymer. I don't shoot my revolvers anymore, but in the past I typically sized .358".

[Meatpuppet]

I have to agree. There is definately no need to do this. However, I was planning on getting BT Sniper’s dies for swaging .357 ammo for revolvers and my lever action with a future 357 Maximum project. Fiddling around with this project was a side endeavor. I do not cast lead boolits for powder coating or for lubing/shooting. All of my cast lead is used as cores for swaged projectiles. Essentially, I start off lazy and then trend downward from there.

I have quite a bit of leftover ACME and The Blue Bullets, 147gr 9mm projectiles that are already coated. I was interested to see if I could bump them up without distorting the coating and have a cheap source of plinking ammunition for the .357, not necessarily high performance ammo. It is a quick one-step operation pushing them into the point form die.

I think there is a lot more to explore here in terms of accuracy, concentricity and performance. A proper bench rest session and chronographing will follow.

It is all so darned interesting. If I only had more time….

[Meatpuppet]

Followup on this thread. Bumping and forming powdercoated lead in a point form die works… and works great!

I have a 458 SOCOM that I am feeding using BT Sniper’s 458 dies to make jacketed projectiles using 45ACP brass weighing 285gr to 425gr for hunting/supersonic use. Now I have a suppressor am I am looking for cheap projectiles in the 500gr weight range.

I have Accurate Molds for a 405gr and 500gr in .430 diameter. So I cast the boolits using pure lead with a little tin/pewter thrown in. I don't take too much care casting and the boolits usually have visual imperfections. I powdercoat twice using Smoke4320’s powder and then push them into BT Sniper’s 458 point form die using a Sea Girt press.

The result is fantastic! The imperfections are swaged out under pressure and the powdercoat remains intact and becomes perfectly smooth. I don't think you can see in the pictures just how smooth the finish is.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/abAz7BGd2DDNo7t0lQKtl802195C24N2pNuR4yrkS18gsIooxG SlkGCIgg4oGc2C-19X9QM0aNwDV-EWVrPHeqbfy9hGlEcA79l8zVj05j6kIDrT61lclLTDZk3WGXkK VnmQzFRS

I’ll report back soon in how they shoot. They are soft lead and intended for subsonic use at 100 yards or less. I think the powdercoat will hold the soft lead in shape, but allow for significant deformation or expansion on impact.

I am really impressed with the strength and flexibility of the powdercoat. I am doing essentially the same thing for a suppressed 357 Maximum. Casting a 310gr - .340 dia projectile and running it into a BT Sniper .358 point form die with the same great results. On a whim I pushed the .340 dia powdercoated projectile into the .458 point form die and amazingly, the powdercoat held! The result was a perfectly formed .458 powdercoat hollowpoint. That is a lot of material moving around under swaging pressure with the powdercoat holding together.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7zmAS6lZPK8eTk39VkhgIMLp17hgAUhF0FYYjfNCdHvyBkLc0Z U653AO1cokUxXGggYRMfyUBNf7UvTC7PIP-3ao_E4qpykPLcY70gExNGxNEYtxUlCeLmOH5ya4rh63T6eLK9a V

Yet another use for Brian’s amazing dies…...

Note: I also posted this over at the "Lead Rounds in Point Form Die" thread.

[Traffer]

Well Brian. It is taking a while but it is catching on. I knew it would.

[runfiverun]

I knew powder coat held on well just from the smash tests I have given them.
but I wasn't too sure about punching them up quite that far.

[BT Sniper]

This project of PC and swaging cast boolits has always been in the back of my mind. Meatpuppet here has been showing me a lot of what is possible in my dies so I figured I better give it a try too :) A thank you to him for posting his results as it helped me to get started in this little adventure too.

Also a thank you to Smoke for his advise and great powder. I was able to achieve excellent results from my first attempt using his powder with "black airsoft BBs" method and simply dumping them on a wire rack to bake.

My first experiment was with the 230 grain 30 cal lee mold. I had some already cast and after an easy coating of Smoke's blue I gave them one stroke in my simple 30 cal swage die and added a gas check at the same time.

I thought these boolits turned out so well I started shopping for a 300AAC fast twist barrel :)

https://i.imgur.com/ZMRKum1l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TWo1Vf8l.jpg

and a look at the die that I used

https://i.imgur.com/wgM1ymzl.jpg

Next up all the pistol and big bore calibers to see what I can come up with!

Good shooting and cast/swage on!

Brian

[Meatpuppet]

44 Magnum "Bumped" up to .452 for 45 Colt using BT Sniper's Dies..... It works, bumping swaged, jacketed or PC!!!!!!

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