Going "Old School"

[jrmartin1964]

I am a sucker for an old Ideal loading tool, especially if it's for a cartridge I reload. With that said, I happened across this Ideal No.3, for .38 S.&W. M. (.38 S.&W. Military, aka .38 Special), and it should be soon headed for my doorstep. I will be waiting anxiously for "Big Brown" to grace my driveway in the coming week.

In the meanwhile, a few photos of the little gem from the seller:

[labradigger1]

Nice. I sometimes use an older ideal with the mold integrated on the end to cast and reload 25/20 SS. Honestly, they load just as accurate ammo as my ch4d die set but they are unable to crimp due to not having interchangeable dies on my set.

[Walter Laich]

nice find.

enjoy working with it--should be fun

[Green Frog]

Welcome to the old side! Be careful, though, you may get stuck in the past and find yourself unable to get "back to the future." I've got a 32 S&W set that adjusts so I can also load 32 H&R and probably even 327 FM and then of course there's the old 45-70 set for BPCS and the 32-40 set for schuetzen. :bigsmyl2:

Froggie

[gwpercle]

I would have seen the 38 S&W and assumed it was for the 38 S&W cartridge , never heard of the 38 special termed 38 S&W Military....learned something new.
I have one that even has a bullet mould attached, just can't figure out how to use it. I might be missing something though.
Show us how it works when you get it !
Gary

[jrmartin1964]

Welcome to the old side! Be careful, though, you may get stuck in the past and find yourself able to get "back to the future." I've got a 32 S&W set that adjusts so I can also load 32 H&R and probably even 327 FM and then of course there's the old 45-70 set for BPCS. :bigsmyl2:

Froggie

The first cartridge I ever loaded, the .44 S&W Special, was assembled 40-odd years ago with the assistance of an Ideal No.3. Since then, two more No.3s (three more, counting this latest), a No.1 (with the bullet mould attached), a No.10, five steel-handled 310s, and two alloy-handled 310s have come to occupy my loading bench. Plus two Winchester 1882 loading tools, and an Ideal No.5 powder measure.

Oh, I am truly no stranger to "the old side" of handloading. [smilie=s:

[dsh1106]

I've started the transition about a year ago.

I'm now reloading everything that I have dies for, using my 310 & TL Jr tools.


Scott

[Green Frog]

The first cartridge I ever loaded, the .44 S&W Special, was assembled 40-odd years ago with the assistance of an Ideal No.3. Since then, two more No.3s (three more, counting this latest), a No.1 (with the bullet mould attached), a No.10, five steel-handled 310s, and two alloy-handled 310s have come to occupy my loading bench. Plus two Winchester 1882 loading tools, and an Ideal No.5 powder measure.

Oh, I am truly no stranger to "the old side" of handloading. [smilie=s:

You must be my long-lost brother from a different mother! We need to have a family reunion or something. :drinks:

I think I bought my first set about 1977, when I was living in an apartment while at grad school. Once I got started tracking down die sets for the oddball rifle calibers I shoot and of course the much more classy steel (nickel pre-War and "purple" post-War) handles it was a slippery slope from then on. I think the 32-40 and 45-70 sets were what really had me hooked.

Truth to tell, I don't load with them as often as I would like to, but seem to keep accumulating them as though I were. My latest find was a 45 Colt set (with purple steel handles) that looks great when next to my Uberti repro of a SAA. :cool:

Regards,
Froggie

[Argentino]

I would have seen the 38 S&W and assumed it was for the 38 S&W cartridge , never heard of the 38 special termed 38 S&W Military....learned something new.
I have one that even has a bullet mould attached, just can't figure out how to use it. I might be missing something though.
Show us how it works when you get it !
Gary

S&W 1899 Models (a.k.a Military & Police 1st Model) intended for Army contract were marked as "38 S&W Mil.", which I find quite close to ".38 S&W M."
These revolvers, however, were chambered for .38 Long Colt so those rollmarks were always somewhat confusing to me: S&W used to apply "U.S. Service CTG" barrel rollmarks when referring to .38 Long Colt ctgs. and ".38 S&W Special CTG" to their own cartridge. So why did they use ".38 S&W Mil." for an army contract revolver chambered in .38 Long Colt? Now this takes me to the next (and more important to this thread) question: is that Ideal tool intended for either .38 Long Colt or .38 S&W Spl.?

Confusing, isn't it ? :confused:

Argie.

[jrmartin1964]

To add to the confusion, where "S&W .38 Mil" on a Smith & Wesson did, indeed, refer to the .38 Long Colt (or .38 U.S. Service, as it sometimes appeared on S&W barrels), the boys over at the Ideal Manufacturing Company took a different view of cartridge names. In the Ideal Handbook No.13, two tools are shown being available for .38 Long Colt - the No.1 for ".38 Long, Outside Lubricated", and the No.8 for ".38 Long Colt's, Inside Lubricated". It was also in this edition of the Ideal Handbook that the No.4 tool was first listed for ".38 S&W Military".

Standard bullet for the .38 Long, Outside Lubricated, cartridge was 358160, a 150-grain heel-base; for .38 Long Colt's, Inside Lubricated, was 35870, hollow-base that also weighed 150 grains. The listing for bullet 358210, weighing in at 167-grain with a plain-base and a round nose, states that this "is the regular bullet for .38 S. & W. Military revolver."

These listings continued, unchanged, until Handbook No.16 (1904), when the No.3 tool was first listed for ".38 S&W Special" (the No.4 continued to refer to ".38 S&W Military"), and the standard bullet for .38 Special was 358250 - a 157-grain plain-base round nose. In Handbook No.17 (1906) the listing for the No.4 tool was changed to ".38 S&W Special (Military)", the listings for the other tools remaining the same as in No.16. The next change came in Handbook No.18 (1907), with the standard bullet for .38 S&W Special changing to the just-introduced 358311.

By this point, it should either be crystal clear...or clear as mud! What I have taken from this is that ".38 S&W M" on the Ideal tool refers to the .38 Smith & Wesson Military revolver (what would be better known as the M&P - Military & Police) that has come to personify ".38 Special". Also, the die with the tool is marked "95" - confirmed in Ideal (and Lyman) literature as identifying .38 Special dies - and the bullet seating stem is marked "311", which identifies it as being intended for use with bullet number 358311 - the standard .38 Special bullet since 1907.

Does that clear things up for everyone? Anyone still confused?

[gwpercle]

I'm going to take two Excedrin and lie down for a while. my head is hurting.

I still want to see how you use the tool when you get it .

Gary

[jrmartin1964]

I'm going to take two Excedrin and lie down for a while. my head is hurting.

I still want to see how you use the tool when you get it .

Gary

My adventure with the "new-to-me" Ideal No.3 will have to be put on hold, at least until I get my hands on a 358311 mould and do some casting with it.

In the meanwhile, here's a good video on how to load cartridges with the Ideal No.4 (also the No.1), with the fixed (non-adjustable) die:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2A0Ez9TMZA

And here's one on how the Lyman 310 tool works. This will apply generally to any of the older tools with removable (adjustable) dies, the biggest difference being that priming with the older tools is handled as with the No.4 above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7JQgqnY6Uk

[gwpercle]

I watched the video's , dug out my Ideal No. 1 tool in 32 S&W , found some old magazine articles and info in the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual , from what I can see , my No. 1 tool has no method of resizing the case .

It has: 1.) a bullet mould. 2.) recapper. 3.) case flaring section and 4.) boolit seating and crimping chamber. The de capping part didn't stay with the tool and isn't shown in the catalog...No provisions made for sizing the case or the boolit at all. I guess black powder loads didn't need sizing ?

Interesting tool , wish it were a 38 S&W ( I have a 38 S&W top break) maybe I need a 32 S&W revolver to go with the tool ?....
This rig makes a Lee Classic Loader (whack-a-mole) and a Lee 2 cavity mould look down right cutting edge modern technology !

Gary

[jrmartin1964]

They may be considered primitive by today's standards, but the old Ideal tools were very "cutting edge" in their day...as it happens, that day was early in the last century. Once you ever get the hang of them, though, they're actually fairly efficient, and with them it is possible to produce ammunition of quite high quality.

Jim

[MT Chambers]

In the good old days alot of thought went into these tools and they were well built, now they make gimmicks and of poor materials and quality, looking to just make money.

[Green Frog]

In the good old days alot of thought went into these tools and they were well built, now they make gimmicks and of poor materials and quality, looking to just make money.

If you really want to understand the basics of reloading, step by step, this is the way to do it. You feel every bit of the production of each round. I still like to occasionally "get back to my roots."

[jrmartin1964]

Just today got my hands on this Ideal No.4, also marked for "38 S&W M", with attached mould for Ideal bullet No.358250. This was the standard cast bullet from Ideal for .38 S&W Special from 1904 until the introduction of No.358311 in 1907. There's a bit of accumulated gunk and grunge to clean out of the seating chamber, and some minor surface rust to attend to, but the mould cavity is clean and sharp. I smell lead melting over the coming weekend.
[smilie=w:

Jim

[OS OK]

I'll bet that tool or the parent tool to that one rattled around in many a saddle bag along with some camp lead powder and primers.

[Wayne Smith]

I'll bet that tool or the parent tool to that one rattled around in many a saddle bag along with some camp lead powder and primers.

Probably not 'rattled', if the primers were in there with it!

[OS OK]

It's just an expression...

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I think you need the proper bullet mold too.
Looks unused. $30 shipped.
174229174230174231174232

[jrmartin1964]

That's a nice one, Rattlesnake Charlie! If I wasn't already .38 caliber mold poor, I'd give that one some serious consideration. I have two Winchester molds like that one, one for .38 W.C.F. and the other for .44 W.C.F, and they both cast like a dream - and they both will literally drop as soon the blocks open. Two of the easiest to use molds I own.

Jim

[Texas by God]

I think you need the proper bullet mold too.
Looks unused. $30 shipped.
174229174230174231174232 I'll take it. Best,Thomas.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Thomoas, PM just sent.

[Texas by God]

Now I need to get a .38S&W! Best, Thomas.

[Texas by God]

Thanks Rattlesnake Charlie for the amazing bullet mould! It is beautiful. Best, Thomas.