Ruger SBH VS. FA both in .44MAG

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I would like to know how the more expensive gun stacks up against the good ol ruger, is the FA that much stronger or better in some way? either way my heart is still set on the ruger SBH bisley hunter 44MAG 7.5" bbl. also, do any of you all shoot the 260-285gr keith style boolits such as on noes' catalogue? does the extra weight effect their accuracy? I would think they would only get better with a little more weight, in moderation.

[dubber123]

If you intend on not exceeding book loads, the SBH is plenty strong. The F/A is a 60,000 Psi gun all day. 5 Shots Vs. 6, not really a bit deal. A big difference in price.

[W.R.Buchanan]

$600 versus $2600? You can buy 4 SBH's for the price of one FA. The FA's are really nice guns !!! and I have held them at the show.

The FA's occupy a place in the market that I understand fully, but can't take part in. Even if I was rich I wouldn't have one simply because I couldn't justify it in use. Now if I was carrying the gun everyday and it was the only gun I ever carried, and I was shooting it frequently over a period of years, then I could see it.

I don't do that.

The SBH I have will outlive me and still be worth what I paid for it when I decide to sell it, and there will be a lot more people interested in it as well.

The closest I will ever get to an FA gun is the North American Arms Mini Master that I have which was designed by FA!

Randy

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh wow! I thought they were around 1300, even at that price it was out of my league anyways! either one of you have any experience with the boolits I asked about?

[DougGuy]

You take that Ruger, send the cylinder and have the throats all sized and honed within .0002" of .4325" and you load and shoot .432" boolits. If you get lucky and get one that none of the throats are over .4315" you can have them all sized to .4315" and shoot .431" which at the end of the day, you won't notice any difference between the two sizes, so long as the throats are all even with each other.

You rent the Brownell's chamfer cutter kit from 4D rentals for $30 plus an $80 dollar deposit. You watch their video and pay attention to it, go SLOW, and you recut the forcing cone to 11° and get rid of the typical factory "collection of tool marks arranged in a tapered, orbital fashion" forcing cone that many of them come with.

You replace the factory spring with a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring, and you dry fire practice until you can hold the sights motionless while the hammer falls. It's made easy with the Wolff spring.

If you want the creep removed from the trigger, send the hammer along with the cylinder and when you get it back, the creep will be gone you will have a crisp trigger that will be more accurate than the creep, stop, then fire, factory trigger.

Now, after all of the above is done, you will have a SBH that will shoot EQUALLY as good as you can shoot the FA revolver. If you put both revolvers in a rest and shoot them at 50yds, the FA *may* out-group the worked-over SBH by 1/4" at 50 yards. MAYBE.

If you want to shoot .432" boolits in the FA, chances are it's cylinder will also need to be reamed and honed. The FA -should- shoot very well with .431" cast boolits right out of the box.

My money would be on the Ruger, after the little amount of work they need is done, they are some mighty fine shooters that will out-shoot the abilities of the majority of us.

Boolit wise I think you'd be better off with a RF or WFN boolit that doesn't have the front driving band that the K type boolit has. The RF boolits are more parallel on the sides to the 11° forcing cone and make for a much smoother transition from cylinder to barrel. The K style boolit has shorter bearing surfaces on the sides and the front of the boolit can become damaged quite easily by the forcing cone transition. I had much better luck with the smoother sided wide meplat boolits. As far as terminal damage on game, they will both kill very handily, I'm just partial to the heavier for caliber wide flat nose design because they shoot good and kill very good.

[contender1]

I'm a serious Ruger fan. I own several, and was just at the OGCA show in Ohio last weekend with a display. I've also had the pleasure of touring the FA plant, and seeing first hand how they build their guns. I own a FA in 454.
New, they start around $2500 and can go up from there depending upon your personal desires.
You can find very fair deals on some used.
But out of the box, factory as issued, the FA is a sweeter feeling & shooting handgun. They are hand assembled & checked. NOT mass produced.
As the saying goes,,, "You get what you pay for."
Both are fine SA revolvers. But the FA builders go slower & pay a lot more attention to details.

[Plastikosmd]

For the average shooter I doubt there is a difference( but I am a huge FA fan)
Get what you can afford and go shoot!
There was a 44 srh hunter that caught my eye once but I pulled the trigger too late, o well

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/freedom%20arms/20141013_093151_zpsev2wqfcy.jpg

[dubber123]

Mostly used market for me for F/A from now on. I paid $750 for my last one, granted a really good deal, but I won't complain. ;)

[44man]

Agree with Doug. Friend bought a SBH Hunter, I did the trigger and mounted the Ultra Dot. He sighted it and every group at 50 yards was 1/2", got it centered and he shoots deer in the neck.
My SBH has out shot every revolver at IHMSA no matter the make. FA is over priced and does not shoot as good. The BFR is still best with 1/2" at 100 from most. Do this with a freedom at 100 yards172765 How about 50 yards. 172766 and my SBH off hand at 100, 172767 3/4". Beat a Ruger or BFR for $2500, get real. How about 200 yards with a lowly Ruger? 172768 1-5/16".
Come back with pictures.
I am not nice so forgive me. I don't like to ask for proof, gets me in trouble But you must show.
Mods might bash me but truth is important too.
To own 5 freedoms is way out of reach without selling the house. How about how they shoot? Just one 100 yard group.
I was told I was full of it once with my Vaquero in .45 Colt so I took 5 rounds down and shot Creedmore. I got this at 50 yards. 172769 Maybe never again, who knows but I did it right now to show. I could not sit and listen that it was not possible.
Do I ask for much?
Mods are good people and don't like when I ask for proof but you are stuck with your sayings. I have no fear. Maybe I will get a warning or tossed but I never lie. I hope I am OK. I am afraid to cross the line. I am sure many want to see if a freedom can shoot 1/2" at 100 yards.

[sixshot]

You can drive from New York to Alaska in a Volkswagen & you can do it in a Cadillac, just depends on how you want to travel. Same with guns, I have owned 2 Freedom Arms, a 454 & a 475 that I took to Africa & I own a lot of Rugers & love them all so its just a matter of Champagne or beer, take your pick.

Dick

[44man]

The freedom is a beautiful gun but it is outside. A pig with a rose is still a pig. Working on many still shows a pig. Some builders will not fool with them, prefer a Ruger. Money does not help. Way over complicated internals to get away from paying royalties for the Ruger transfer bar system. Parts fail so the gun is not safe with a round under the hammer. Barrels can be over size with out of round dimensions.
Want a better trigger, $100 for a spring change. Plus postage both ways. Super crazy spring I made for a friend. Ever take one apart?
You CAN get a good one but nobody has ever shown what they claim.

[44man]

Friends .454 with wear enough to eat the throats oblong and the cone off center, eating into the rifling. Too tight and off center. I cut the throats to find the reamer did not cut one side. I cut the cone. I made some play in the cylinder. Look at what it did before and after at 50 yards. 172770 Original gun when they first came out. 300 factory rounds ruined the gun. I would not buy a freedom for $50.

[cainttype]

There are simple reasons that both Ruger and FA single actions have long-standing market success. The same could be said comparing LEE to Sinclair.
Anything actually "over-priced" will not survive very long in an open, competitive marketplace. Those items die even quicker when their consumers are educated, and most of FA's customers are.
Opinions are like butts... Everybody has one, and everyone else's stinks.

[44man]

Beer is awful good. I drive a 4 Runner and do not want a Porsche. I want what works. I want what I can afford that works. I hate Fords and Chevy's. Never see me with a Chrysler product. I worked on all as a mechanic. I worked on all guns as a smith. Feelings for money spent to atone for it does not compute. it is only your pride. Like your Freedoms, OK. Do they shoot better?

[44man]

Freedom declared bankruptcy. Wonder why? Why is Ruger top dog today? Customer service and good products? Baker wanted your money. Cheap guns at unreal prices because they looked good.
Strong guns, not hardly since a Ruger or BFR is much stronger. Same steel but the little freedom is smaller. Ruger is the pioneer and casts the BFR guns even larger.
FA will go down again.

[lefty o]

ruger is "top dog" because everything is cast or mim and done in very high volume, with an excellent profit margin. no other reason. i like older rugers, but you would have to pay me to have a brand new one.

[cainttype]

That same Porsche will out-perform a Rolls Royce in every category except quality-build and comfort... So what?
I've handled both FA 83s and Rugers for a long time, and own both. Anyone familiar with both that doesn't already know the differences is either in denial or trying to justify their own prejudices.
Rugers work fine, and I've got plenty of them attesting to that, but comparing their "quality" to a firearm that totally outclasses them is silly.

You want market success?... Find a way to build it cheaper so that you can sell it cheaper while maintaining a decent profit margin...and sell a ****-load of them.
Trying to offer a high-quality build that commands premium pricing is always more difficult, and incurs much higher risk... God help you if the economy takes a downturn.

Rocket science, it ain't.

[DougGuy]

ruger is "top dog" because everything is cast or mim and done in very high volume, with an excellent profit margin. no other reason. i like older rugers, but you would have to pay me to have a brand new one.

The recent production medium frame guns I have had come through my shop have EARNED me into believing in them. Enough to own one! The fit and finish is as good as they have EVER been, the thread choke in these is non existant and once cylinder throats are sized they are some of the best production that Ruger has EVER produced, even counting the old models. I wasn't interested in one, but after doing a few forcing cones and cylinders and looking down the barrels and NOT seeing the typical lawyer warning ridges or thread choke, I was like "Hey! I -WANT- one of these!"

[Lloyd Smale]

given the choice if money didn't matter id take the FA gun hands down. Ive had 7 of them and all were great shooters. the reason there going bankrupt is mostly due to a law suit against them for some idiot that shot himself. That said the rugers are good guns too. Most 44 mag rugers shoot great right out of the box. Its mostly 45colts rugers that are trouble. Either gun will take some serious loads. Edge in strength definitely goes to the FA but if your fooling around at pressures that test the ruger your an idiot anyway. Depends on what you want. Like was said if your a chev Malibu type of guy a ruger is probably what you want. There cheaper and get the job done. Some are into this hobby a bit more and take pride in a finely crafted piece. To those the FA guns are a good bargin. there built as well or better then most custom shops do with rugers and cheaper to boot. The way I look at it is this. I doubt id buy one in 44 mag. Just to many other good options out there but if I was looking for something like a 454 or 475 or 500we id go fa and know that when I opened the package the gun would be about perfect and ready to go without any tweaking or changing things. Some here have a hard__ for FA. Me I know a finely crafted revolver when I handle one and that's what FA made its name building. Sorry ruger and BFR guys but the TRUTH is there cheaper for a reason. Now given a choise between a stainless super and a bfr id take the bfr. Price difference isn't that great but there just to big and clunky for me and they lack a bisley style grip frame which in 44 isn't a big concern as to recoil but it just feels better in my hands. Ive owned MANY 44 mags through the years and my favorite is a 4 5/8s super that ive owned for probably 25 years. It shoots great and has put many lbs of meat on the table. It would be the last handgun to leave my safe if I had to sell.

[44man]

Freedoms are finely finished but I believe the frames are still cast. Cast has proven the strongest and a freedom is strong enough for anything.
Ruger has the best with the Pine Tree facility and casts the BFR parts. Lost wax process and I wonder if they cast the Freedoms.
I just hate the internals and have had to make parts from tool steel to stop the firing pin from pushing out with my thumb on the hammer. Very explicit instructions to NEVER have a round under the hammer with either the hammer block or transfer bar. 5 chambers that are really a 4 shooter.
They have good trigger pulls, crisp but still heavy, Just the trigger spring. I get a BFR to 19 oz with no creep. Mine feel like electric triggers. The custom shop BFR was perfection and has never been apart. I never had to work a trigger on a SRH either. I don't like the RH.
Freedoms are fit too tight and wear fast, cylinders can't clock. Took 3 barrel changes to get a round .357" barrel and 200 different loads with every bullet/boolit never got it to shoot. You might love the bank vault but it is wrong. Jack Huntington customs have more cylinder play then factory guns. I have shot many of his and he loves the Ruger to build on.
When I seen the .454 with oblong throats from bullets pushing and the cone worn to the side with wear going into the rifling, maybe Doug can explain how I fixed it. Yes I added play to the cylinder too.
If you think a bullet/boolit will not wear a gun if off, surprise! 300 rounds wore the .454 but I have over 81,000 heavy rounds through my cheap Ruger with no measurable wear.
Freedom was sued because the guy snagged the hammer on his drover and when it fell, it fired without the trigger being pulled. I have seen the failure.
I will buy every freedom for $50 because I can fix them and sell for more.
Friend had his on consignment over 2 years and finally sold it with a huge beating. With repairs and postage he lost near $1500. Guess what he bought, Rugers and BFR's.
I would not hunt deer with a Freedom or Colt SAA with all the clicks.
Most in the old west had parts for their guns because fiddling with the sears would drop the trigger into the safety notch and break it. NEVER remove metal from the hammer on these. A Freedom or Colt can not have too light of a trigger or it will catch and break.
A Ruger or BFR can hang fire or fail too but nothing will break. See how I make a transfer bar to be reliable.172790 It covers the whole pin at full cock. Even a finger kick will not drop it off the pin.

[JSH]

I won't argue one way or the other. I have shot some excellent groups with both at 100. But, to do it on demand the FA does it day in and day out. Just because a gun shoots a 1" group once, doesn't make it a 1" gun.
One of the writers in hanloader described it the best. Take said gun to range every time. Use the same target over and over for a year and shoot it once at every range session. If it makes a 1"'group you should consider buying a lotto ticket.

I I have had smiths and Rugers over the years. I never got to International IHMSA class with either. Bought a FA from one of my mentors. In one match I shot Int. class.

As as to a hunting rig. The FA will do it. But a small amount of debris can tie the gun up at the most in opportune time. So, a well tuned Ruger is my choice there.
Jeff

[DougGuy]

When I seen the .454 with oblong throats from bullets pushing and the cone worn to the side with wear going into the rifling, maybe Doug can explain how I fixed it. Yes I added play to the cylinder too.
If you think a bullet/boolit will not wear a gun if off, surprise!

This is EXACTLY why I tell people don't put the Belt Mtn. pin in their guns. Rugers NEED the available tolerances so that when the boolit enters the forcing cone, it will allow the cylinder free movement to follow the boolit. Forcing cones are NOT a funnel that channels the boolit to the bore. The forcing cone forces the CYLINDER to turn and let the boolit align with the bore. If you take this movement out, it will kindly shoot itself loose in short order.

If you want to help your Ruger be more aligned, leave the play in there, get the cylinder throats sized .0005" to .001" over boolit diameter, get the forcing cone touched up just enough to clean it up with an 11° cutter, and use the RF and WFN style boolits that have the smooth rounded sides so the boolit itself is more parallel with the forcing cone when presented to it. All this lessens the impact of that transition, and lessens pressure overall every time the gun is fired simply because you have lessened the amount of interference at the points of resistance.

Can you build a Ruger tight as a drum and have it last? Yep, when you remove ALL of the play in the bolt latch, and ALL of the play in the cylinder and then start with a new unfitted cylinder that you line bore before chambering. Any revolver that is done this way from the start will stay this way. Remember when S&W didn't even HAVE a forcing cone? None was needed because the gun was built with such precision that they achieved that perfect alignment from cylinder to barrel each time it locked up.

[High Desert Hunter]

This I don't get, I have been using Belt Mountain base pins for years in my Rugers, with thousands of rounds fired, in every case the new belt pin improved accuracy, especially in my SBH 44. My SBH had to be retired, but it was due to the barrel cracking in three places after over 5K rounds through it, it had been over tightened at the factory when it was manufactured causing stress fractures that eventually became visible over the years. I have some very accurate handguns, my FA tops the list, and it does it consistently.

[rintinglen]

The most accurate handgun I ever fired was an xp-100 in 7 BR.
The second most accurate was a 454 FA. At one hundred yards it was as accurate as my Ruger .44 RH at 50. I don't own one, because I own two Rugers, instead. At this stage of my life, that level of precision is wasted on me. A 4 inch group at 50 yards represents my limit with any Iron sighted gun, and that from a bench on a clear, wind-less day. What it will do with a scope or a dot is irrelevant to my uses.

[454PB]

Strange, my FA 83 has several thousand rounds through it, and other than some forcing cone erosion, looks and shoots like new. The forcing cone erosion is inevitable, both of my other .454's have it too.

[44man]

This is EXACTLY why I tell people don't put the Belt Mtn. pin in their guns. Rugers NEED the available tolerances so that when the boolit enters the forcing cone, it will allow the cylinder free movement to follow the boolit. Forcing cones are NOT a funnel that channels the boolit to the bore. The forcing cone forces the CYLINDER to turn and let the boolit align with the bore. If you take this movement out, it will kindly shoot itself loose in short order.

If you want to help your Ruger be more aligned, leave the play in there, get the cylinder throats sized .0005" to .001" over boolit diameter, get the forcing cone touched up just enough to clean it up with an 11° cutter, and use the RF and WFN style boolits that have the smooth rounded sides so the boolit itself is more parallel with the forcing cone when presented to it. All this lessens the impact of that transition, and lessens pressure overall every time the gun is fired simply because you have lessened the amount of interference at the points of resistance.

Can you build a Ruger tight as a drum and have it last? Yep, when you remove ALL of the play in the bolt latch, and ALL of the play in the cylinder and then start with a new unfitted cylinder that you line bore before chambering. Any revolver that is done this way from the start will stay this way. Remember when S&W didn't even HAVE a forcing cone? None was needed because the gun was built with such precision that they achieved that perfect alignment from cylinder to barrel each time it locked up.
Exactly, Belt MNT is Ok if fit right. Make it squeal when going in is not good. Pin clearance is very small anyway but it must be there. I lube my pins and ratchet with STP, still allows movement but also cushions.
I still have a problem with line boring since a jig is screwed into the frame to start holes but the cylinder still needs chambered from the other end. There must be zero slop in the tools and to chamber the index must be perfect. Now what if the barrel is not perfect and is a few thou out? What if the hole in the frame is a tad out?
Remember when Dan Wesson changed hands and holes in the frames were crooked? I seen them so crooked you need a 3" extension on the rear sight. Line boring would have chambers crooked.
Dropping a range rod in a few freedoms had them stop at the cylinder front. You can actually see if it is off with a strong light and looking down the bore. I am not enthused about line boring.

[tdoyka]

i really don't count in the answer because i've just gotten my sbh in 44 mag. i've never owned a freedom arms either. i have liked the srh in 7.5" barrel with the 44 mag alot. but i have a hard time shooting it with one hand(stroke got me), so i traded the srh for a nice sbh with a 4 5/8" barrel.

now alot of guys are like me, meaning money is too tight to spend it on a $2000+ revolver. but when we do have like $500-600, we expect to find a great deal. fortunately, ruger does have a great deal. so we buy it. now there are parts that can be corrected, like springs and cylinder reaming and etc etc. those are services left to someone like dougguy(hint, hint, wink, wink). but like the rest of us guys/gurls, its real good to do some shooting at targets or hunting, not to leave the gun to a custom gunshop.

if you can do a 3" or so target at 50 yards, you have a deer. i cannot shoot with 44man, but he does show enough of targets to prove what he has done. i myself, can never do a half inch at 50 yards, no matter what revolver. i would be extremely happy if i can go 3" at 50 yards with my "factory" ruger.

i would like to do a dougguy special on my ruger sbh, but thats another story. this is just a poor boy's perspective...

[cainttype]

2015 IHMSA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

REVOLVER INT

1) H. Sharp............... FA:357. 2015Champion
2) S. Martens............ FA:357
3) R. Mowles............ FA:357
4) J. Cullison............ FA:41 M
5) D. Hagerty........... FA:44 M
6) S. Hannawacker... FA:357
7) J. Kesser............. FA:41 M
8) J. Richards.......... FA:44 M
9) B. Stuntebeck..... FA:41 M
10) C. Iftiger.......... DW:357 Max
11) J. Zumwalt....... FA:44 M
12) W. Pendleton... FA:357
13) T. Valmir......... FA:357
14) D. Taylor......... FA:357
15) E. King............ FA:357
16) S. Roberts....... FA:357

This is the official record as posted on the IHMSA website.
15 FAs and 1 DW... Kinda odd, don'tcha think?
I consider this "proof" as good as any.

[jrayborn]

Well I'll be darned. Look at all the Rugers on that list. :)

[MT Chambers]

All one has to do is handle a FA, there is nothing like it, I treasure my 4 5/8" .454 Casull like no other gun in my collection.

[High Desert Hunter]

I lube with 30 weight motor oil after a long conversation with Mr. John Linebaugh.

[Plastikosmd]

Heck my FA 22lr shoots under 1" at 100. Scoped of course. My silhouette setup is does that at 50.
As I said before, shoot what you can afford and enjoy. Both are great guns

[gandydancer]

I have owned a FA 7.5" barreled 454 with a extra cylinder in 45 colt sense 1987 shot many chucks & a few deer with it after a few thousand rounds I sent it back once for repair a broken trigger spring ( FA said spring was made to hard) and that was it. I still have that revolver and it will go to my grand son when i'm done with it. I still shoot it two/three times a month. I have owned many rugers over the years and still have a few around my latest is a BH 4.5/8ths Bisley flattop in 44 special and its a great revolver. with a little bit of improvements to the Rugers they to will last a life time. as to them who bad mouth the FA revolvers I will not say what you say is a out & out falsehood lets just say you got a bit careless with the truth. gd.

[DougGuy]

I would NOT bad mouth a FA revolver. I have never owned one and I think I have only shot just one, I have reamed and honed a couple of their cylinders and respect their workmanship. FA came on the market just about the time I had burst that Ruger Only .45 Colt bubble or I would have bought one.

I think the recoil of full house loads and 340gr boolits out of a blackhawk and then a vaquero pretty much taught me that I didn't need to go further up the power ladder, which likely saved me a BUNCH of $$ from going down the proverbial rabbit hole with the built like a tank revolvers.

Nothing against them, had they come along ten years earlier I would no doubt been bitten.

[Lloyd Smale]

kind of odd that some of the best custom 5 and 6 guns built in the country are tight and use belt mountain pins. Ive put belt mountain pins in ever ruger ive ever owned and anyone that knows me here will tell you I SHOOT my guns and I DONT BABBY them with pop gun loads. Its the rotational side to side movement of the the cylinder that's going to allow a bullet to line up. If you have slop in your base pin that alone is going to beat up a gun more then any misalignment would. Your gun is just going to get sloppier and sloppier.

Ive yet to have gun come from linebaugh, clements, harton, bowen ect that was line bored or not come with a sloppy base pin. Not even a bfr has a sloppy base pin like a lot of rugers come with. Never did buy into that a sloppy loose gun will allow a bullet to align itself to the bore. I guess I have to ask how when a gun goes off with a slight misalignment it magically rotates into alignment. What happens is the bullet hits the forcing cone at a different angle every time and that is not consistant and consistency is what creates accuracy. Taylor throating like you do is a bandaid for a loose gun or one that's not timed right.

Ive owned at least 50 ruger single actions through the years and have NEVER seen even one that shot worse with a belt mountain pin. Ive seen a few that might have improved a smidge and most didn't change. Biggest reason for me using belt mountain pins is they stay in place. Ive seen even 44 mag rugers that couldn't get through a single cylinder of full power loads without the pin jumping. If you think slop like that is condusive to accuracy ive got a bridge. Only trouble ive ever seen with them is some people don't install them properly. The locking screw is not suppose to put a lot of pressure on a pin. Its suppose to be tightened lightly and it is suppose to be screwed into a recessed dimple you put in your barrel. Doug I have no idea of your level of expertise on sixguns but some of the best smiths in the country use them and some of the most knowledgeable sixgun shooters in the country use them religiously. I do also know Kelly Shlepp the owner of belt mountain and hes forgot more about sixguns that many here will ever know.



This is EXACTLY why I tell people don't put the Belt Mtn. pin in their guns. Rugers NEED the available tolerances so that when the boolit enters the forcing cone, it will allow the cylinder free movement to follow the boolit. Forcing cones are NOT a funnel that channels the boolit to the bore. The forcing cone forces the CYLINDER to turn and let the boolit align with the bore. If you take this movement out, it will kindly shoot itself loose in short order.

If you want to help your Ruger be more aligned, leave the play in there, get the cylinder throats sized .0005" to .001" over boolit diameter, get the forcing cone touched up just enough to clean it up with an 11° cutter, and use the RF and WFN style boolits that have the smooth rounded sides so the boolit itself is more parallel with the forcing cone when presented to it. All this lessens the impact of that transition, and lessens pressure overall every time the gun is fired simply because you have lessened the amount of interference at the points of resistance.

Can you build a Ruger tight as a drum and have it last? Yep, when you remove ALL of the play in the bolt latch, and ALL of the play in the cylinder and then start with a new unfitted cylinder that you line bore before chambering. Any revolver that is done this way from the start will stay this way. Remember when S&W didn't even HAVE a forcing cone? None was needed because the gun was built with such precision that they achieved that perfect alignment from cylinder to barrel each time it locked up.

[Lloyd Smale]

gandy, 44man is a guy I really respect. We agree on most things but hes had a boner for FA for probably 20 years. He never misses a chance to come down on them. He had a bad experience years ago with them and its kind of blinded him. I guess its no different them me hating ford. Because I had a bad one ill never buy another and bash them too even though theres many great ones on the road. Bottom line is ive owned his dear to heart bfrs and wasn't impressed. Are they a crappy gun? heck no. there a better built gun then any ruger but the same can be said comparing a bfr to a FA. there not in the same league. Like comparing a ford to a porche. The ford will get you anywhere a porche will and even do somethings just as well for less then half the money but fit and finish and overall quality of build are just better with the porche and few of us if we won the lottery tommarow (IF TOTALY HONEST) would rather drive a ford tempo then they would a turbo 911. At least nobody that was a serious car enthusiast. Even though its not beyond the realm of possibilities that even porche has a bad one sneak through occasionally.

Same goes for guns. Theres not a bit of doubt in my mind that a FA isn't superior to a ruger or bfr. Heck in some ways there superior to my full blown customs. Thing is not everyone can afford the admittance price (without again winning the lotto) so its easier to find fault and pretend your to smart to own one then it is to admit you cant afford one, wife wont let you have one, or youd rather spend 2k on chrome for your Harley or set of custom golf clubs because this is only a secondary hobby. Poor shooting, overly tight inconsistent quality I think cainttype's post about covered that one. Absolutely only thing I can say even remotely bad about them is the 454 they were designed around. Ive had a number of them and never warmed up to that round. Now talk about one in 44spec or mag, 475 or 50we and I'm a happy camper. My 4/58s 475 I foolishly traded was proably the most accurate handgun of any kind ive ever owned and ive owned a COUPLE.
I have owned a FA 7.5" barreled 454 with a extra cylinder in 45 colt sense 1987 shot many chucks & a few deer with it after a few thousand rounds I sent it back once for repair a broken trigger spring ( FA said spring was made to hard) and that was it. I still have that revolver and it will go to my grand son when i'm done with it. I still shoot it two/three times a month. I have owned many rugers over the years and still have a few around my latest is a BH 4.5/8ths Bisley flattop in 44 special and its a great revolver. with a little bit of improvements to the Rugers they to will last a life time. as to them who bad mouth the FA revolvers I will not say what you say is a out & out falsehood lets just say you got a bit careless with the truth. gd.

[shorty500M]

Have been trying to wear out a pair of FA .454s for 30years now, had to have both 4-3/4 & 7-1/2 inch versions. They both still out shoot me, have NEVER had any repair work needed and in spite of shooting the ATOMIC CLASS loads FA recommended in the early days they both still lock up like bank vaults! And the 4-3/4 has provided me with some of the best long range sixgunning I have ever done

[Piedmont]

2015 IHMSA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

REVOLVER INT

1) H. Sharp............... FA:357. 2015Champion
2) S. Martens............ FA:357
3) R. Mowles............ FA:357
4) J. Cullison............ FA:41 M
5) D. Hagerty........... FA:44 M
6) S. Hannawacker... FA:357
7) J. Kesser............. FA:41 M
8) J. Richards.......... FA:44 M
9) B. Stuntebeck..... FA:41 M
10) C. Iftiger.......... DW:357 Max
11) J. Zumwalt....... FA:44 M
12) W. Pendleton... FA:357
13) T. Valmir......... FA:357
14) D. Taylor......... FA:357
15) E. King............ FA:357
16) S. Roberts....... FA:357

This is the official record as posted on the IHMSA website.
15 FAs and 1 DW... Kinda odd, don'tcha think?
I consider this "proof" as good as any.

Flag this for the moderators!! This is the 21st century. Anyone's opinion is as good an anyone else's. When you inject actual evidence into a discussion it ruins everything.

I suspect cainttype is an old-fashioned sort. The world is changing. We don't need this old-type thinking. It doesn't fit with the new utopia.

[Plastikosmd]

It is an impressive list. Sadly now I think I need to buy a m83 in 41.

[ole 5 hole group]

Flag this for the moderators!! This is the 21st century. Anyone's opinion is as good an anyone else's. When you inject actual evidence into a discussion it ruins everything.

I suspect cainttype is an old-fashioned sort. The world is changing. We don't need this old-type thinking. It doesn't fit with the new utopia.

Just hold on there for a minute youngster.;) Go back to the 20th century and take a peek at the record books. Just because a few of us have a mind thinking like we are 21 years of age and a body that knows we are on a slippery slope after ramming around this earth for 70 plus years - we should have the privilege of going back & forth between the centuries!!!;)

[JSH]

Lloyd hit the nail on the head of fit and finish. That is what you pay for, for the most part. I have heard over and over again that SW today are over and above years gone by. Can't prove it by me.
Back to subject at hand. IHMSA rules will not let you do any of the work that Doug suggest to get a Ruger where it should or could be and still be in the "R" category. You will have to dig up some history pre FA. DW and Ruger were about it, sprinkling of colts in there and then the short lived Seville.
I just this AM, before it got any warmer, went and dirtied up three wheel guns, 480,45 colt and 41 mag. Two of them being Rugers. The 45 colt is a 77-78 gun. Cylinders pin at 454, so I sized to that. A 185,200 and a 270. The 185 and 200 would be bullseye worthy the 270 is giving me fits without stepping on it harder and harder. Most would be happy, I am not and further testing will go on. My new Bisley 45C/45acp has 451+ cylinders. I am holding off because it is shooting pretty darn good for no more work than I have done with it.
The Ruger is a good buy for the $$$ and that is what Bill Ruger intended I am sure and it carries on today. Even if they have to cut a few corners on fit and finish the cost stays down and most folks are quite happy with them out of the box. Oh sure they can be modified and fixed to some degree short of a total build of a new gun.
Cars were brought into this discussion so I will go there. You want a street rod, so you spy a diamond in the rough sitting in a fence row. You drag it home and work begins, fast forward in time and you have a nice ride but it still needs paint and wheels. More time passes and you have it painted, new tires and wheels. Go to a car show and the winner is the same as your rig and it is for sale. It is a turn key rig for several $$$$ less than you have in yours and not all the time either.
So a build comes from the heart and soul for sure.
I have built several guns and cars and had just what I describe above happen. You have no better than what you start with in most cases.
On the other hand we have people that will just never shoot as well as others. It takes practice and discipline and that comes at a cost in some shape or form. I have been to enough matches and shoots to see people try to "buy" targets. Throw money at it till it is fixed come to mind. Oh sure you can buy a few, but never enough to consistent and win on a regular basis. I admit to this myself.
Now enter the FA. A good shooter has to have surpassed what his gun is capable of. I got to that point after a lot of years and felt I deserved an FA and I bought one. However I still don't consider myself a good shooter, but I feel I am consistent for the most part.
IMHO a revolver is tough to master, that is why I think there are so few of them out there compared to the masses. A lot of folks buy them as a novelty.

[snowwolfe]

2015 IHMSA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

REVOLVER INT

1) H. Sharp............... FA:357. 2015Champion
2) S. Martens............ FA:357
3) R. Mowles............ FA:357
4) J. Cullison............ FA:41 M
5) D. Hagerty........... FA:44 M
6) S. Hannawacker... FA:357
7) J. Kesser............. FA:41 M
8) J. Richards.......... FA:44 M
9) B. Stuntebeck..... FA:41 M
10) C. Iftiger.......... DW:357 Max
11) J. Zumwalt....... FA:44 M
12) W. Pendleton... FA:357
13) T. Valmir......... FA:357
14) D. Taylor......... FA:357
15) E. King............ FA:357
16) S. Roberts....... FA:357

This is the official record as posted on the IHMSA website.
15 FAs and 1 DW... Kinda odd, don'tcha think?
I consider this "proof" as good as any.

Absolutely spot on post! Some people here, as well as the Single Action forum will take any chance they get to rag on Freedom Arms revolvers. But the proof is in the results.
I have owned BFR's, Rugers, and FA's. Still own 3 Ruger revolvers and will likely at some point buy some more. Plus I have always wanted a BFR in 44 mag to find out how far I can "stretch" the loading to.
But nothing factory made has ever equaled the feel, fit and finish, and accuracy of a Freedom Arms.

Is the FA that much better than what it costs compared to a Ruger or BFR? That question can only be answered by the person who is paying for it. To me, it is a resounding, YES!

[snowwolfe]

I will buy every freedom for $50 because I can fix them and sell for more.

I don't know a hunter or gun collector alive who would not buy a Freedom Arms for $50. But that is wishful thinking because I doubt anyone has ever sold one for the price.

[DougGuy]

kind of odd that some of the best custom 5 and 6 guns built in the country are tight and use belt mountain pins. Ive put belt mountain pins in ever ruger ive ever owned and anyone that knows me here will tell you I SHOOT my guns and I DONT BABBY them with pop gun loads. Its the rotational side to side movement of the the cylinder that's going to allow a bullet to line up. If you have slop in your base pin that alone is going to beat up a gun more then any misalignment would. Your gun is just going to get sloppier and sloppier.

Ive yet to have gun come from linebaugh, clements, harton, bowen ect that was line bored or not come with a sloppy base pin. Not even a bfr has a sloppy base pin like a lot of rugers come with. Never did buy into that a sloppy loose gun will allow a bullet to align itself to the bore. I guess I have to ask how when a gun goes off with a slight misalignment it magically rotates into alignment. What happens is the bullet hits the forcing cone at a different angle every time and that is not consistant and consistency is what creates accuracy. Taylor throating like you do is a bandaid for a loose gun or one that's not timed right.

Ive owned at least 50 ruger single actions through the years and have NEVER seen even one that shot worse with a belt mountain pin. Ive seen a few that might have improved a smidge and most didn't change. Biggest reason for me using belt mountain pins is they stay in place. Ive seen even 44 mag rugers that couldn't get through a single cylinder of full power loads without the pin jumping. If you think slop like that is condusive to accuracy ive got a bridge. Only trouble ive ever seen with them is some people don't install them properly. The locking screw is not suppose to put a lot of pressure on a pin. Its suppose to be tightened lightly and it is suppose to be screwed into a recessed dimple you put in your barrel. Doug I have no idea of your level of expertise on sixguns but some of the best smiths in the country use them and some of the most knowledgeable sixgun shooters in the country use them religiously. I do also know Kelly Shlepp the owner of belt mountain and hes forgot more about sixguns that many here will ever know.

Lloyd you make some good points and I cannot argue with success for these smiths either. Me I am not a professional smith. Somewhat more talented than Bubba, somewhat better tooled up than Bubba, I have a good understanding of what it takes to get most Rugers to perform very well and I have a good understanding of fitment from boolit to muzzle as it applies to barrel and cylinder throating. This is what I mainly offer to shooters to help them improve their game and it comes with a fairly good amount of success, it's enough to keep me doing what I do and it's greatly appreciated by most.

I am not knocking the points you are making, and yes if one is more consistent in alignment each time it is fired it will be more accurate than one that isn't as consistent. The point I was making is this. Once you start taking slack out of any revolver, unless the cylinder's throats are perfectly aligned with the bore when it locks up, it's better to allow it movement than it is to restrict it at less than perfect alignment. A Ruger revolver left to it's own inherent factory installed movement will last generations longer than one that is tightened without perfect alignment. It's the perfect alignment part that can be difficult to achieve with off the shelf mass produced factory production revolvers.

The Belt Mtn pin restricts vertical movement, and it DOES hold the cylinder more to the centerline of the hole that the pin resides in, but for align boring I have seen a screw put into the frame to push the cylinder upwards in the front to simulate the position the cylinder is in upon firing. I suppose the installation of the larger pin would be a 50/50 guess whether it holds the cylinder more in alignment with the bore, or less in alignment with it. That would be a question that would have to be answered on each individual gun.

I use the factory pins. Having cylinder throats sized correctly, forcing cone attended to, and a trigger pull that can be managed well enough to hold the sights motionless is roughly 98% of the improvements that will make a big difference in how the gun shoots. The improvement that the pin gives is minimal if any. Like you said, most didn't change. They were probably good guns to begin with.

Taylor throating removes the thread choke, doesn't have anything to do with poor alignment or timing.

[snowwolfe]

Here is a my Freedom Arms in .44 mag.

[9.3X62AL]

No real interest in a FA for me. The Rugers do well enough for my purposes. I can afford either, but can't see spending the 3X cost for so little substantive gain.

[sixshot]

All my Rugers have Belt Mountain base pins & none have ever shot worse & I own a lot of them. If it were a gimmick Kelye would have been out of business years ago but I see him every year at Raton & he's doing very well & as mentioned is highly respected in the revolver field. I also see Bob Baker at Raton all week & get to shoot many of his toys & they are as good as advertised. Sometimes he comes over for a short rock chuck session when he has time & I've seen him do some amazing shooting at loooong range! Once over 600 yds!

Dick

[tygar]

For the average shooter I doubt there is a difference( but I am a huge FA fan)
Get what you can afford and go shoot!
There was a 44 srh hunter that caught my eye once but I pulled the trigger too late, o well

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j5/plastikosmd/freedom%20arms/20141013_093151_zpsev2wqfcy.jpg

Dam that looks like the FAs that I had. lol

Over the years I had 4 or 5 FAs in 454 & 1 in .44. Most were very accurate, 1 or 2 were just OK.

I've had half dozen SRH in 454 & 2 in 44. Almost the same thing. A couple were just OK or maybe less, the rest very accurate. Currently have 3, 2 454s, 1 44. The 44 is Excellent! Red dot site, 5 shots in less than 4" at 100 with 265gr(NOE).

So, the short of it is, for the price & more importantly, to me, the double action, I like the SRH.

I got my first FA 454 in early 80s for bear protection in AK, but when Ruger came out with the SRH & I tried it, there was no contest. Could get 2-3 aimed shots off with the SRH in the time it took to get 1 off with the FA.

If you just going to hunt non-dangerous game & can afford it, the FA is a great choice also.

FWIW & also have several Taurus RBs in 454 & 480, & they also function & shot well.

[MT Chambers]

Here is a my Freedom Arms in .44 mag. Is that beauty an oct. barrel??

[Lloyd Smale]

Taylor throating (or just about any recutting of the forcing cone while the barrel is under tension) will remove the constriction.

Lapping is more to make the bore more uniform along the whole length of the barrel.

Taylor throating also allows for a compensation of the minute alignment inaccuaracies of revolvers that don't have the advantage of being linebored. You can witness the success of this with a Dan Wesson( though the tensioned barrel helps alot too). You will have a hard time outshooting one even with a FA .( Even though the FA *locks up almost into a solid mass and has much tighter tolerances and alignment - and 3deg forcing cone to boot)

Doug I copied the about descriptioin from another forum. Its not my words but true. taylor throating IS advertised as a cure for slight misalignment. Its a more gradual transition into the rifling that if used in a perfectly aligned gun would be a waste money because you could just lap the constriction out. I have seen differnces in accuracy with revolvers that are taylor throated that don't lock up perfectly in line and some of those had no restriction what so ever. Most were Rugers but ive had it help a couple smiths too. One in particular was 4 inch moon clip 25 that after taylor throating groups were cut right in half. No constriction ever in that one either. Just a combo of a poor forcing cone and square shouldered bullets.
Lloyd you make some good points and I cannot argue with success for these smiths either. Me I am not a professional smith. Somewhat more talented than Bubba, somewhat better tooled up than Bubba, I have a good understanding of what it takes to get most Rugers to perform very well and I have a good understanding of fitment from boolit to muzzle as it applies to barrel and cylinder throating. This is what I mainly offer to shooters to help them improve their game and it comes with a fairly good amount of success, it's enough to keep me doing what I do and it's greatly appreciated by most.

I am not knocking the points you are making, and yes if one is more consistent in alignment each time it is fired it will be more accurate than one that isn't as consistent. The point I was making is this. Once you start taking slack out of any revolver, unless the cylinder's throats are perfectly aligned with the bore when it locks up, it's better to allow it movement than it is to restrict it at less than perfect alignment. A Ruger revolver left to it's own inherent factory installed movement will last generations longer than one that is tightened without perfect alignment. It's the perfect alignment part that can be difficult to achieve with off the shelf mass produced factory production revolvers.

The Belt Mtn pin restricts vertical movement, and it DOES hold the cylinder more to the centerline of the hole that the pin resides in, but for align boring I have seen a screw put into the frame to push the cylinder upwards in the front to simulate the position the cylinder is in upon firing. I suppose the installation of the larger pin would be a 50/50 guess whether it holds the cylinder more in alignment with the bore, or less in alignment with it. That would be a question that would have to be answered on each individual gun.

I use the factory pins. Having cylinder throats sized correctly, forcing cone attended to, and a trigger pull that can be managed well enough to hold the sights motionless is roughly 98% of the improvements that will make a big difference in how the gun shoots. The improvement that the pin gives is minimal if any. Like you said, most didn't change. They were probably good guns to begin with.

Taylor throating removes the thread choke, doesn't have anything to do with poor alignment or timing.

[DougGuy]

Taylor throating (or just about any recutting of the forcing cone while the barrel is under tension) will remove the constriction.

Lapping is more to make the bore more uniform along the whole length of the barrel.

Taylor throating also allows for a compensation of the minute alignment inaccuaracies of revolvers that don't have the advantage of being linebored. You can witness the success of this with a Dan Wesson( though the tensioned barrel helps alot too). You will have a hard time outshooting one even with a FA .( Even though the FA *locks up almost into a solid mass and has much tighter tolerances and alignment - and 3deg forcing cone to boot)

Doug I copied the about descriptioin from another forum. Its not my words but true. taylor throating IS advertised as a cure for slight misalignment. Its a more gradual transition into the rifling that if used in a perfectly aligned gun would be a waste money because you could just lap the constriction out. I have seen differnces in accuracy with revolvers that are taylor throated that don't lock up perfectly in line and some of those had no restriction what so ever. Most were Rugers but ive had it help a couple smiths too. One in particular was 4 inch moon clip 25 that after taylor throating groups were cut right in half. No constriction ever in that one either. Just a combo of a poor forcing cone and square shouldered bullets.

I see. I know Ross Seyfried did it to a perfectly good sixgun just to chrono and document improvements which if you go by the numbers showed a significant improvement. And it does change things. I thought it to be more of a cure for a tight bore than an actual improved forcing cone. Was not aware that it is accountable for improving cylinder misalignment.

I will say this much. The longer freebore I put in auto pistol barrels although not anywhere near as long as a Taylor throat, does improve them significantly. They shoot lights out. I have been informed of a slight velocity loss in two barrels from long throating but this is more or less a sign of less pressure from less resistance to boolit movement creating less velocity which is totally understandable since more pressure generally makes more velocity.

There is much to be said about having the boolit clear the case mouth and the end of the chamber and be fully supported by smooth parallel freebore when it gets to the leade in to the rifling. In so many words, it just works. This is the other claim that is made by Taylor throating as well, having the boolit supported in the long freebore squares it up and centers it before it gets to the leade in.

Ever noticed how .45 ACP revolvers seem to shoot pretty danged good for the cartridge being how far back from the barrel? Look how long the throats are.. Just sayin'

Thank you for posting that sir.

[Mica_Hiebert]

Some day I will own a .475 linebaugh FA, but until my money tree start bearing fruit I will be happy with my Rugers.

[snowwolfe]

Is that beauty an oct. barrel??

Yes. And I have a matching twin in .22 LR

[historicfirearms]

Dang it guys. All this talk of FA has me wanting one again. My dream gun is a premier grade 500 Wyoming express, six inch barrel. By the way, I have no real need for one, just want it bad.

[9.3X62AL]

"Actual need" expired a way long time ago. I just enjoy the company of good sideiron.

[snowwolfe]

Dang it guys. All this talk of FA has me wanting one again. My dream gun is a premier grade 500 Wyoming express, six inch barrel. By the way, I have no real need for one, just want it bad.

Need has nothing to do with it:). At some point we all deserve to treat ourself for a change.

[High Desert Hunter]

Took me over 20 years to get a Freedom Arms 454, it was well worth the wait.

[44man]

I am not against the gun so much, friend had a .475 I did 1/2" at 50 meters with. Yes I found some problems and some shoot lights out. Compare sights to a Ruger's junk. It was a thorn when we could not put better sights on, being production.
At the start Ruger used Micro, then made junk to save money. Freedoms are nice guns but QC is no better then anyone else and for the money there should never be a problem. I am truthful with what I found, Might hurt but so be it.
Maybe it was the attitude from them that ruined my opinion. My friend talking to them about a problem and I heard the screaming and cussing across the lunchroom at work. Sorry, I can not accept that. My friend was calm and nice.
My Ruger was good enough to take Ohio state with 79 out of 80 with the last ram missed from a shake. I have never shot a more accurate revolver then the BFR's, PERIOD with groups to 1/2" at 100 yards.173069 Last two shots in the box, opens creedmore at a cardboard chicken at 200 meters with the SBH. 173070 1-5/16 at 200 with cast.
It is the defense of money spent. I will continue to hurt feelings of any gun owners, no matter the make.

[snowwolfe]

Sure, your Rugers and BFR are super accurate. That is why you don't see any in the following chart:

2015 IHMSA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP

REVOLVER INT

1) H. Sharp............... FA:357. 2015Champion
2) S. Martens............ FA:357
3) R. Mowles............ FA:357
4) J. Cullison............ FA:41 M
5) D. Hagerty........... FA:44 M
6) S. Hannawacker... FA:357
7) J. Kesser............. FA:41 M
8) J. Richards.......... FA:44 M
9) B. Stuntebeck..... FA:41 M
10) C. Iftiger.......... DW:357 Max
11) J. Zumwalt....... FA:44 M
12) W. Pendleton... FA:357
13) T. Valmir......... FA:357
14) D. Taylor......... FA:357
15) E. King............ FA:357
16) S. Roberts....... FA:357

You don't hurt my feelings by posting this gibberish about FA quality control. 1 5/16 inch 3 shot group at 200 yards with a revolver? Maybe once in your life if all the stars align.

[jrayborn]

Should be shooting benchrest with those magic BFR's...

[white eagle]

given a choice and if I had the dough
I would get a Freedom Arms hands down

[historicfirearms]

Where is the rest of that target? I think I've seen that one before.

[Lloyd Smale]

bought one of your beloved bfrs and it came with a silver rear blade and a silver front blade. Talk about useless sights. Washed out in about any kind of light. Mine didn't even come with one of those "stylish" colored inserts that I detest but that gun sure could have used one.
I am not against the gun so much, friend had a .475 I did 1/2" at 50 meters with. Yes I found some problems and some shoot lights out. Compare sights to a Ruger's junk. It was a thorn when we could not put better sights on, being production.
At the start Ruger used Micro, then made junk to save money. Freedoms are nice guns but QC is no better then anyone else and for the money there should never be a problem. I am truthful with what I found, Might hurt but so be it.
Maybe it was the attitude from them that ruined my opinion. My friend talking to them about a problem and I heard the screaming and cussing across the lunchroom at work. Sorry, I can not accept that. My friend was calm and nice.
My Ruger was good enough to take Ohio state with 79 out of 80 with the last ram missed from a shake. I have never shot a more accurate revolver then the BFR's, PERIOD with groups to 1/2" at 100 yards.173069 Last two shots in the box, opens creedmore at a cardboard chicken at 200 meters with the SBH. 173070 1-5/16 at 200 with cast.
It is the defense of money spent. I will continue to hurt feelings of any gun owners, no matter the make.

[44man]

bought one of your beloved bfrs and it came with a silver rear blade and a silver front blade. Talk about useless sights. Washed out in about any kind of light. Mine didn't even come with one of those "stylish" colored inserts that I detest but that gun sure could have used one.
Don't know, all mine were flat black. I hate the inserts too. The S&W with the red insert is junk and I sure don't want a sight that glows.
It is the market after all, everyone wants glow in the dark or shiny. I want sharp undercut, dead flat black. I hate Baughman ramps too. We smoked sights for target. I used carbide and once melted the stupid plastic insert on a SRH.
I tried all the painting of front sights and it does not work.
It might work on a belly gun at dark. I would never buy a fiber optic sight. The glow would blot a deer.
When I made my first ML's I used a brass front sight. Tracking deer in the PA hemlocks with snow. I could not hit a deer, Big ball of light and the closest I got was a ton of hair with no broken skin. I changed sights and never failed again. Maybe 220 to 250 deer with them. There were times I could not see my sights with the light but I will never go back to a glow.

[ironhead7544]

For us mere mortals that have to limit their iron sighted hunting shots to 50 yards, the Rugers are just fine IMHO. Might need a little tuning.

You can get a lemon from any maker. Ask any gunsmith. When you get a good one, keep it.

After owning many 44 Magnums over the years, I find accuracy can vary within a makers revolvers. Had a SBH with a 10.5 inch barrel. The cylinder pin was very tight and difficult to get out. Also was very tight when the cylinder was out, but did seem to turn OK. That revolver was very accurate. I tried a Belt Mountain pin in it and it was looser fit. Didnt change the accuracy. That is just one gun. Others may respond to tuning differently.

On sights, I am with 44man. Flat black Patridge or undercut. You will shoot toward the light in sunlight with colored sight IME. The black sights also force you to be more precise. The spray sight black will help you to get a good sight picture.

[44man]

The Freedom has always had super sights but we could not change the Ruger unless Ruger offered them for IHMSA. We asked Ruger with no luck. Ruger does have some undercut on some guns. Guys hate them with a holster. They hang and cut leather but they are not made for carry.
My Mark II silhouette came with undercut and I won Ohio state the same year with a new gun with no sight settings, 57 out of 60 with all shoot off chickens at 100 yards. My spotter seen hits. I missed the first pig, turkey and ram.
Once at the club I set my .22 targets when the shoot wound down. I would shoot 10 chickens in less then 2 minutes allowed for 5. I used the first WW Wildcat ammo but they changed it and it went away.
No gun on the line beat my Rugers and many had Freedoms and Brownings.
You will not see BFR's listed at IHMSA because of the weight limit. When I stocked my XP 100 I had to weigh it to be legal. Took it to the town PO and she did weigh it for me. Try to take a gun to the PO today! I could still do it because they shoot with me. I can take my guns into the store/PO.
The reason the BFR is not listed is weight.

[cainttype]

Freedoms are nice guns but QC is no better then anyone else...

It is the defense of money spent. I will continue to hurt feelings of any gun owners, no matter the make.

Suggesting that the opinions of experienced shooters which differ completely from your own are simply based on the "defense of money spent" is not only a little snobby and pretentious, it is somewhat insulting and presses close on the borders of insanity.
Here's another reality check...

IHMSA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 2016
Revolver INT

1) S. Martens...........FA 357
2) G. Bridges...........FA 44 M
3) S. Thompson.......DW 44M
4) D. Haggerty.........FA 44M
5) J. Weaver............FA 41
6) B. Whitford..........FA 357 Australia
7) J. Cullison............FA 41
8) J. Richards...........FA 44 M
9) J. Kesser.............FA 41
10) R. Mowles..........FA 357 Australia
11) L. Britez.............FA Paraguay
12) R. Hawkins.........FA 357
13) B. Rhoads..........FA 44 M
14) W. Pendleton......FA 357
15) E. King..............FA 357
16) T. Batts.............FA 41
17) D. Rhoads.........FA 357
18) D. Taylor...........FA 357

17 Freedom Arms and ONE Dan Wesson.
It appears that FAs reputation for quality and accuracy is pretty good World-wide.

AAA Revolver class was swept by???... You guessed it... FREEDOM ARMS.
I'm not sure how much more "proof" any open-minded shooter could possibly need.

[ironhead7544]

The spring type shoulder holster can be made for the undercut type sights. Andrews Custom Leather could probably make a standard type holster but you might have to send the revolver to him. His holsters are well worth the money. Sam also makes a spring type shoulder holster.

I used to use the Lawrence #7 with no problems. A.E. Nelson makes a similar one today. The revolver pivots out the front.

[44man]

Suggesting that the opinions of experienced shooters which differ completely from your own are simply based on the "defense of money spent" is not only a little snobby and pretentious, it is somewhat insulting and presses close on the borders of insanity.
Here's another reality check...

IHMSA WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 2016
Revolver INT

1) S. Martens...........FA 357
2) G. Bridges...........FA 44 M
3) S. Thompson.......DW 44M
4) D. Haggerty.........FA 44M
5) J. Weaver............FA 41
6) B. Whitford..........FA 357 Australia
7) J. Cullison............FA 41
8) J. Richards...........FA 44 M
9) J. Kesser.............FA 41
10) R. Mowles..........FA 357 Australia
11) L. Britez.............FA Paraguay
12) R. Hawkins.........FA 357
13) B. Rhoads..........FA 44 M
14) W. Pendleton......FA 357
15) E. King..............FA 357
16) T. Batts.............FA 41
17) D. Rhoads.........FA 357
18) D. Taylor...........FA 357

17 Freedom Arms and ONE Dan Wesson.
It appears that FAs reputation for quality and accuracy is pretty good World-wide.

AAA Revolver class was swept by???... You guessed it... FREEDOM ARMS.
I'm not sure how much more "proof" any open-minded shooter could possibly need.
I see scores shot at the IHMSA shoots, not that great. You did not include them.
I was international class with every gun from production to unlimited.
I go to IHMSA and can not find 2016 national scores because I don't think they have been shot yet. Did you change the date? International scores are not yet either.

[ole 5 hole group]

bought one of your beloved bfrs and it came with a silver rear blade and a silver front blade. Talk about useless sights. Washed out in about any kind of light. Mine didn't even come with one of those "stylish" colored inserts that I detest but that gun sure could have used one.

Don't have any idea how your BFG came to be, as I have a couple and they both have black sights. When the front iron sights for the BFG were offered by a member of the sixguns forum; I purchased the sights with a thickness of 0.100", had them blued and installed them - not that it improved anything, just made the BFG more appealing to me.

Both of my BFG's (454 & 500 JRH) are customs shop products and will shoot bug holes at distance. All that proves is my BFR's will shoot with my loads and me messaging the trigger from a bench (well, for the bug holes I needed to mount a 8X scope - Leupold 2.5X8X32). They are well made handguns and felt good in my hand but they feel heavier today than they did when purchased.;)

I serious doubt the FA's will outshoot the BFG's - I don't think the BFG is superior, but they won't take a back seat either. FA's have a well earned reputation for strength and accuracy and I see no reason to talk against that finely produced handgun - but one could mention they would like to see a faster twist in the FA or less weight in the BFG.;)

44Man - you outscored a MAN that was shooting a FA - you beat him, not his revolver. A good pisterlo can shoot all handguns well, it's just that he can shoot his handguns a little better. When you weren't victorious, did you beat the man or his revolver? You can phrase things just a tad different sometimes and that might help???

[44man]

I shot more 40's with the SBH then anyone on the line. They cussed when they seen us arrive.
The funny thing about it all was we brought .22's and seen so many big bore targets and no .22 targets. Went into the club house and told it was the big bore state, Fit me in and I took it.
Same with .22, We left and I said take the .22's too. Got there to see only the .22 targets, fit in again and I took it. Usually pre registration. They had room for me.
I shot with the best. Blacky Sleeva, Josie Engle, Boyd Carpenter. It was touch and go when I beat them or they beat me. But we were friends.
You show stuff but did not know them and how great they were. Sorry any of us could beat a Freedom as I did every shoot. They were new at the time and only sights were better.
Josie was a fine lady that would put you in your place. Average shooters hated us. I am proud to have been with the best. Back then you had to shoot 40 and only won with shoot off targets. Miss one and give it up. Miss one chicken because you had a clean gun and it was over. the rest was a waste.
Talk to me about IHMSA.

[44man]

Yes you lost the shoot with a clean gun because the first chicken at 50 meters is lost. No matter the gun. You could not lose a target.
One shoot I won with the Ruger, my friend had an MOA in 7BR, said "Shoot it" I signed up and shot a 40. He sold it to me for $300 and I since shot a 3/8" group at 100 yards with it. He had the wrong powder and I made it better. But I won with it.
I was there.

[cainttype]

I see scores shot at the IHMSA shoots, not that great. You did not include them.
I was international class with every gun from production to unlimited.
I go to IHMSA and can not find 2016 national scores because I don't think they have been shot yet. Did you change the date? International scores are not yet either.

That info was taken directly from the IHMSA website. It's easy to find, and posted for anyone interested.
Go to IHMSA.org... then "forum"... then "2016 World Championships"... easy.

A good shooter using a pretty decent firearm will often outscore a lesser shooter using a better firearm, any seasoned shooter knows that. That is even more probable when shooting off-hand... No big secret there.
The original question was whether the cost involved in purchasing these firearms provided any beneficial differences in quality or potential. I'd say the answer is obviously "YES".

You are entitled to your own opinion, for your own reasons.
Suggesting that your opinion is fact, however, is a totally different thing... and I will call "Bull" in this particular example.

[snowwolfe]

Both of my BFG's (454 & 500 JRH) are customs shop products and will shoot bug holes at distance. All that proves is my BFR's will shoot with my loads and me messaging the trigger from a bench (well, for the bug holes I needed to mount a 8X scope - Leupold 2.5X8X32). They are well made handguns and felt good in my hand but they feel heavier today than they did when purchased.;)

I serious doubt the FA's will outshoot the BFG's - I don't think the BFG is superior, but they won't take a back seat either. FA's have a well earned reputation for strength and accuracy and I see no reason to talk against that finely produced handgun - but one could mention they would like to see a faster twist in the FA or less weight in the BFG.;)

44Man - you outscored a MAN that was shooting a FA - you beat him, not his revolver. A good pisterlo can shoot all handguns well, it's just that he can shoot his handguns a little better. When you weren't victorious, did you beat the man or his revolver? You can phrase things just a tad different sometimes and that might help???

Good points. I don't doubt the accuracy of BFR's can be excellent as I own one. And one of these days hope to find a 22 Hornet for a great price. To some people accuracy is all that matters. Though accuracy is very important so are the looks are feel of a fine piece of machinery and this is where the FA shines. This is also why so many of the better custom revolver smiths are backed up with work for years.
If you place my BFR next to either of my FA's the difference in how they are finished is immediately apparent. Place a BFR next to a Ruger and the results are just as dramatic with the BFR the clear winner. And granted, the FA's cost more than the BFR and BFR's cost more than Rugers but that is part of we "get what we pay for".

[44man]

Been searching for the 2016 results with no luck.

[44man]

Found it but funny I shot a 79 with a Ruger. The rest were poor. Many Freedoms but to rely on the gun alone does not make you better.

[cainttype]

Been searching for the 2016 results with no luck.

IHMSA.org... forum... World Championship (at the bottom of the list)... 2016 World Championship final results (top of the list).
Sorry, but I can't help you find any Rugers there. :)

[44man]

IHMSA.org... forum... World Championship (at the bottom of the list)... 2016 World Championship final results (top of the list).
Sorry, but I can't help you find any Rugers there. :)
Need to know how to make a revolver shoot. I am too old now and shake but come here and shoot my guns and you will go nuts. Darned right you will shoot better then me with my guns now. Bring a freedom and you will sell it to buy a better gun.
A question for all. The Freedom states no round under the hammer so how does IHMSA allow five shots in a five shooter?

[snowwolfe]

Need to know how to make a revolver shoot. I am too old now and shake but come here and shoot my guns and you will go nuts. Darned right you will shoot better then me with my guns now. Bring a freedom and you will sell it to buy a better gun.
A question for all. The Freedom states no round under the hammer so how does IHMSA allow five shots in a five shooter?

Why don't you ask IHMSA.

[cainttype]

The OP's question was comparing the Ruger SBH to the FAs, asking if the more expensive FA was "better in some way?"... The simple answer is "YES".

I'm off now to find a dead horse to beat... I'm assuming it's lots of fun, judging by what I keep seeing here.

[Lloyd Smale]

this was one of the first 480s they made. It was before they even chambered the 475. The picture in the advertisement for them at the time showed blue sights with colored inserts. They also called it a 6.5 inch gun and come to find out they measure from the end of the frame not the forcing cone like EVERY other manufacture. I called to complain, mostly about the sights and what they told me was that sights can change with there availability. They said at the time my gun was made all they had was stainless sights and basically tuff S###.
Don't have any idea how your BFG came to be, as I have a couple and they both have black sights. When the front iron sights for the BFG were offered by a member of the sixguns forum; I purchased the sights with a thickness of 0.100", had them blued and installed them - not that it improved anything, just made the BFG more appealing to me.

Both of my BFG's (454 & 500 JRH) are customs shop products and will shoot bug holes at distance. All that proves is my BFR's will shoot with my loads and me messaging the trigger from a bench (well, for the bug holes I needed to mount a 8X scope - Leupold 2.5X8X32). They are well made handguns and felt good in my hand but they feel heavier today than they did when purchased.;)

I serious doubt the FA's will outshoot the BFG's - I don't think the BFG is superior, but they won't take a back seat either. FA's have a well earned reputation for strength and accuracy and I see no reason to talk against that finely produced handgun - but one could mention they would like to see a faster twist in the FA or less weight in the BFG.;)

44Man - you outscored a MAN that was shooting a FA - you beat him, not his revolver. A good pisterlo can shoot all handguns well, it's just that he can shoot his handguns a little better. When you weren't victorious, did you beat the man or his revolver? You can phrase things just a tad different sometimes and that might help???

[44man]

Why don't you ask IHMSA.
I am not there anymore is why. It is still a point when the company says no round under the hammer with ANY of the guns. Since most are 5 shots, they are 4 shooters. I did not know back then about the danger or I would have brought it up.
I still out shot them.

[ole 5 hole group]

this was one of the first 480s they made. It was before they even chambered the 475. The picture in the advertisement for them at the time showed blue sights with colored inserts. They also called it a 6.5 inch gun and come to find out they measure from the end of the frame not the forcing cone like EVERY other manufacture. I called to complain, mostly about the sights and what they told me was that sights can change with there availability. They said at the time my gun was made all they had was stainless sights and basically tuff S###.

You basically got in on the ground floor then. I can see why you don't much care for BFG's and had I received that type of reply, I wouldn't much care for the outfit either!!

I haven't had any contact with BFR for a couple years but when I did their customer service was top notch and they bent over backwards to accommodate - that is, if you called the Pillager, Mn telephone number - I first called the Minneapolis, Mn number and they didn't seem to be up to speed. They were bought out a while back but I haven't found a need to communicate with them, so what I do know is dated and limited.;-)

[44man]

Yes MR measured to the front of the frame and I loved it. I hate short barrels. I don't think MR was bought out but they used badger barrels and they changed hands so MR went to Green Mountain, good barrels but might have a different twist. I mailed my friends at BFR and never got an answer. I fear BFR's now if twist is wrong. Freedom has wrong twist rates for many guns but just right for others. Why does the .454 have a 1 in 24" twist? should be 1 in 16". .45 colt 1 in 24", should be 1 in 16'. Freedom has 1 in 14" for the .357 and .41, perfect. Ever see a Freedom .44 win IHMSA? good twist at 1 in 20" but not many buy a .44 from them.
Do you know how hard it is to to knock a 50# ram over at 200 meters with a .357?

[lefty o]

i dont believe MRI was bought out either, they did however move from fridley mn, to pillager.

[dubber123]

[QUOTE=44man;
Do you know how hard it is to to knock a 50# ram over at 200 meters with a .357?[/QUOTE]

You can shove 200+ gr. boolits from a F/A .357 at 1,400+fps. with no problems. Different animal than most .357's, probably why 3/4 of the 2015 and 2016 lists posted were 357's.

[ole 5 hole group]

Kahr Arms bought out Magnum Research - here an article from back when.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/10/kahr-arms-purchases-magnum-research/

[44man]

Kahr Arms bought out Magnum Research - here an article from back when.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/10/kahr-arms-purchases-magnum-research/
OK that's correct. I think it was when they stopped offering different barrel lengths too. Have to go custom shop the get the barrel you want.
Kahr is supposed to be a good outfit but I think they are a shave a penny type.
Badger made the best barrels and they were hand lapped, maybe the price went up.
I'm glad I got mine when I did but I still want the 30-30.

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry pal but I once handled and shot a 10 inch 3030 bfr and thought it was hands down the ugliest revolver ive ever saw. With that long cylinder, small bore holes and long barrel it weighted a ton and was way to front heavy. I don't know how you would holster it? That big and needing a sling I just as soon grab a 94 or 336 and even with a 16 inch barrel and no cyl gap get ALOT more velocity with very little difference is ease of carry. I know you like long barrels but those 3030s and 4570s in a bfr are truly BUT FUGGLY REVOLVERS. I can stay with you when your talking your 475 bfrs but a guy has to draw the line when you about need wheels in the field[smilie=l:
OK that's correct. I think it was when they stopped offering different barrel lengths too. Have to go custom shop the get the barrel you want.
Kahr is supposed to be a good outfit but I think they are a shave a penny type.
Badger made the best barrels and they were hand lapped, maybe the price went up.
I'm glad I got mine when I did but I still want the 30-30.

[44man]

Yeah, are monsters but my 45-70 will out shoot every rifle I ever shot to 500 meters. I wish I could have used it for BPCR. A 30-30 would be for fun anyway, tote it to my range in the Polaris! 4 wheels are about right!

[44man]

I am opinionated and if MR screws up the BFR, they will feel my wrath too. It is the way I am. No excuse to cut corners to save a dime.