What hurts value or helps in repo ML's broadly speaking

[RogerDat]

What makes for a good ML rifle, what are things to watch out for or avoid? Brands, styles, things to check.

I have a chance to purchase remington zouave of unknown manufacture or condition. Price is $200 and it will go well with my Remington 1858 new model army revolver. Thing is I really know nothing about what would make it a good rifle or a poor choice. I will be able to inspect, should I expect shine to the bottom of the bore at that price point? Or is some wear or damage expected and acceptable? Should I be checking nipple and other parts of the hardware?

I know some makers of reproductions are better than others, any brands that I should just walk away from? Or should consider premium? Or areas that get wear to check for, or my own pet peeve, simple parts that if worn are expensive or hard to locate for replacement or repair.

What do people think I should know if I was your kin buying a remington zouave as a first ML rifle. I have bought smaller odds and ends of reloading stuff from the fellow and consider him honest and has given me good prices in the past but my own ignorance concerns me. Like to know why it is a good price when I buy it. Or why I consider it not a good purchase.

[Omnivore]

That's sort of a tough one. First, 200 dollars is really cheap for a Zouave as I'm sure you know. I'd look for signs of misuse and neglect like corrosion around the nipple snail and pits in the bore. Beyond that there's the condition of the muzzle (does it show dings and scratches, or wear from the steel tulip ramrod, or is it nice and clean and even?), the workings of the lock, condition of the wood and the wood to metal fit.

I usually find the flaws in a new gun only after I've paid the money, got it home and had some time to spend with it. Try not to be like me.

Since the appearance of the gun is an indirect, or even poor, indicator of how it'll end up shooting, it's a bit of a gamble no matter how you look at it. 200 dollars is a pretty small bet though, so unless you dig up any serious red flags during a close inspection I'd say go for it.

[bob208]

zoli are the best. look at the barrel in front of the bolster. see if there is a line like a joint. if there is then you have a two piece barrel. which is not good. not that it is not strong but it is not fitted to the back of the barrel very good leaves a space that you can never get clean. and some only ar on the by two or three threads.

[nagantguy]

with any use role but in my experience seems more so in front stuffers is to look hard at te wrist area and look for cracks, several coats of shiny sealer can hide for a while even a good sized crack, got bit once on a Lyman renegade.

[rfd]

we each may have different views on repro trad ml value, and sometimes from different perspectives. with some folks it's repro accuracy, or materials, or craftsmanship/build quality, and with others it may be a matter of design/functionality.

my main concern with most commercial production traditional sidelock muzzleloaders (traditions, cva, pedersoli, investarms, etc) is that they typically employ patent breech plugs and most either can't be removed (and the manufacturer clearly specifies removal will bugger the barrel) or are quite difficult to remove without the proper tooling. this is completely unlike a well made custom trad ml, that's fitted with a traditional flat faced breech plug that's been mated with anti-seize lube.

two issues - the patent breech, and any plug removal ... who cares and why?

the patent breech has a flue, or tunnel, that extends back into the plug from the chamber itself. then the flue doglegs 90* to the touch hole (flint) or bolster (cap). proper cleaning out of the chamber requires a scraper and flat faced jag of the proper diameter for the barrel's caliber. but with a patent breech yer not done, and it takes a small brush (typically .22 caliber) and/or a brush and patch to get into the flue to clean it out. i see no real added benefit to patent breech plugs (other than the possibility of working in powder to blow out a dry ball), just more work, and to each their own.

http://i.imgur.com/Hf8CkpI.jpg

there may come a time when the breech plug will need to get removed for either a dry ball or servicing, or you may wish to clean out a brand new and unfired barrel/chamber/plug of all its proofed gunk and they rehome the plug with anti-seize lube for easier future removal. breech plugs should be meant to be removed, imho.

witness a new and unfired investarms hawken style barrel that i pulled its patent breech plug - just look at all the proofing residue ...

http://i.imgur.com/taqW9cO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/qOi8oBx.jpg

[bedbugbilly]

1863 Zouave - Zoli is a good brand and lots of them sold. You might run across other stampings such as Navy Arms for which Zoli made them but they were stamped with Navy Arms stamp. I have a Zouave that I bought in the early 1960's - no maker's marks other than a serial number. Beautiful walnut stock and workmanship - the closest thing to the looks and feel of an original that I have ever seen. I recently bought a Navy Arms Zoli - due to the wood they used for the stock, the wight is noticeable more than my first one.

Check the barrel as mentioned. If it is a one piece barrel - it should have the standard military style flat faced breech plug. Check the lock. Does the hammer pull back into half-cock (safety notch) and stay there with a definate click? Does it easily engage on full cock? In full cock - put gentle pressure on the hammer with your hand and push forward - does it stay in full cock? Without letting the hammer fall on the nipple, hold the hammer and feel if it has good release when you pull the trigger.

Barrel will have the traditional 3 groove military rifling unless it is a custom barrel. You should be able to tell the condition pretty easily just by giving the rifle a good going over. If you have a bore light you can check out the bore. Bore size may vary from production run to production run but you can usually get a mold that will fit the bore or a sizer if necessary to size the minie ball. My first Zouave has a bore that is a little oversize - the Zoli recently purchased that was used (the Navy Arms) the minie balls from my old Lyman minie ball mold fit perfect just s they drop.

A used rifle is a used rifle and just because it's used, doesn't necessarily mean it's abused. Even bores with minor pitting can shoot well. $200 is a good price on a used Zouave if it is in decent shape. Used ones that I have seen usually go for around $350 or so for a Zoli.

The 1863 Remington Zouave is a nice rifle and an excellent shooter. I shot literally thousands of rounds in mine when I was shooting N-SSA.

[mooman76]

I don't consider value too much when it comes to MLs other than what's it worth to me. If it looks made well, $200 should be a really good price. Odd modifications or damage from improper care would be something that would be definitely devalue one but there isn't a strong market for them and it differs allot depending on your location and time of year. Right before hunting season they seem to go up in value.

[dondiego]

Let me know if you buy it Roger. I have a few Minnie balls I can give you to try.

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the offer dondiego, Am getting a bit of a shock with the weight these guns throw down range, it is like three 9mm decided to throw a party in one barrel.

Any of these to be avoided? Have also heard that there are some Spanish made ML that are less than robust in barrel strength. JUKAR-Spain was mentioned in some post. But another where a Spanish CVA zouave was spoken well of.


Lyman
CVA
Traditions
Uberti
Pedersoli
Investarms


Looking for any manufactures that are especially well thought of, or any with a reputation for being a pipe bomb with a nice wood handle. Know at one time or another I have seen some grenade on a stick type evaluations of some models.

[mooman76]

Jukar was actually where they were made in Spain and they got a undeserved bad rep. Some of the very, very early ones weren't the best made but those were long ago and pretty much not around. The CVAs and Traditions were made by the same company in Jukar Spain as well as allot of other companies that bought them and put their name on them. I have several and they may not be the best in finish but they are reliable and shoot very good. If it's a Spanish made Zouave, chances are it was made by the same company. If it look ok, I would not hesitate to buy it myself.

[rfd]

Thanks for the offer dondiego, Am getting a bit of a shock with the weight these guns throw down range, it is like three 9mm decided to throw a party in one barrel.

Any of these to be avoided? Have also heard that there are some Spanish made ML that are less than robust in barrel strength. JUKAR-Spain was mentioned in some post. But another where a Spanish CVA zouave was spoken well of.


Lyman
CVA
Traditions
Uberti
Pedersoli
Investarms


Looking for any manufactures that are especially well thought of, or any with a reputation for being a pipe bomb with a nice wood handle. Know at one time or another I have seen some grenade on a stick type evaluations of some models.

Having had all that you list above, I now strongly avoid ALL except for the Investarms (Lyman and DGW brands are all Investarms guns) because they are reasonably well made (for a commercial production gun) and (with the right tooling) you can remove their patent breechs (see my post above as to why). The rest are of lesser quality, lots lesser. Big bunches lesser. As always, YMMV. Choose wisely ... OR, seek out a good gun maker and get it all done the way You want from the get-go, or buy a Quality used gun. Yeah yeah, customs start at 1.5 to 2x the cheapo costs at least, but you will get what you pay for.

Someone just getting into the trad ml game and wanting to get their feet wet without breaking the bank I strongly advise getting a Lyman or Dixie Gun Works (Investarms) trad ml, and you will be a happy camper (once you learn to properly load and care for the gun). IMHO, can't ever go wrong with a Lyman Trade Rifle in flint or cap. DGW has an Investarms Hawken flint kit with DST for $415. I've assembled one, excellent value!

"Kit" rifles can save you dollars. The Investarms ones just need assembly with no inlet wood work required.

Below is the 4th Investarms "kit" rifle I've assembled, this one is a Lyman Great Plains Rifle Hawken style in .50 caliber, w/32" barrel and walnut stock. Purchased from Graf's for $490/shipped, the assembly took less than 30 minutes, requiring only small and medium screwdrivers, a hammer and drift for the barrel wedges and sights. I can load and shoot it as is, with nothing else to do. However, I like to make 'em look nice and the wood could use a finish. I'll take off the barrel and lock, leave on the furniture so the proud wood gets rasped and sanded down to meet the metal. This is all lots easier than it sounds. When done, it'll get stained and clear coated - too easy. Promise. The end results will be a good shooting, durable rifle. As I always do, I'll go the extra step and remove the patent breech plug (because I have the tooling to do so), clean out and reassemble with anti-seize lube. For everyone else, the barrel just needs to be cleaned out with a jagged patch and some CLP cleaner/lube/preservative. Use a .22 brush to clean out the patent breech flue. Easy peasy.

About Trad Muzzleloaders (http://traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.org/tradml/index.html)

http://i.imgur.com/Kutm3Ef.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KHsn1L7.jpg

[RogerDat]

The good news - it turns out the make is Zoli, decent bore with some patches of rust at the mouth, mostly clean.
The bad news - wood has be re-glued to fix a crack that runs from the lock to lock screw head. This would be the screw that goes through from left side to right and holds the lock in. Runs through breech plug tang on originals. Screw takes some of the recoil pressure. $200

I went wandering around the show to see what else there was. Found a guy with real 1863 remingtons that had one that had been chopped short and had the fore stock removed, along with the sights both front and rear. Not stock tulip ram rod. That could be had for $200. Bubba sporterized civil war era rifle. Some pitting as one would expect from 150 year old rifle but he assured me sound to shoot. Suggested where I could get at least a front blade sight.

CVA Traditions Deer Hunter asking price $125, very plain, single wedge, straight and padded butt, short barreled rifle. Marked Spain on barrel The screw that goes through under the nipple for clean out had the slot chewed up to unusable. To the point it would probably take a dremel to cut a new slot in the head to even take it out for replacement. That and a fine powdering of rust that fully and evenly coated the part of the barrel I could see was a turn off. Looked like this one https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/1200x/17f82f742ffe127f42dca9de82fb58b1/t/r/traditions-deerhunter-rifle-kit.jpg

Another CVA Hawkens this one seller would take $150 for. Dripping with brass, two wedge, has the trigger guard that looks like brass knuckles, only flimsy, guard flexes if squeezed. Mechanically it looked unfired very clean. This is no hunting rifle, has more brass "bling" than any game animal for 1/2 mile in any direction could possibly miss. Had the very curved butt with a brass end plate. Not sure I like a pointed butt against my shoulder seem like it would be unpleasant. Looked like this one if you can imagine every bit of metal as brass, including the front blade sight and screws.
http://216.197.108.5/cook/gun_images/Hawkin-62-1_2-stock-Full-2Sm.jpg
Note the two wedges, that seems different from current offerings which go new for $189 and this one is very close to like new.

So I'm conflicted, none of these is exactly what I want, but they are within what I can afford to spend on a ML rifle. The Zoli is broken, fixed but how well is anyone's guess, and it is a location that does get stress. Maybe with some sanding and a refinish or whole new stock down the road, it as they say has pretty good bones....

The real 1863 Remington bubba version is ok except for being as worn as one would expect a 150 year old gun to be. Being a "real" civil war era gun that has been hacked is sort of offensive but it is solid but no sights, without sights it is like a saw with dull teeth, not a good tool but sort of a neat one....

CVA Deerhunter from Spain is a style I like, very workman like tool but damaged screw and frosty barrel, maybe rust in bore will clean up, and screw will come out and I will shoot and be happy for that really low price but.....

CVA that is all shiny and new is mechanically sound but trigger guard is so light weight I could break it with my hands, and it is a lot of show, sort of a dance hall floozy of a rifle. But at that price I could probably shoot it stick it on the wall and admire it, maybe dull the brass with something....

Which would you pick given the information provided? Aside from spend a whole lot more money and get a good one. Decent is going to be out of reach for a bit since I figure $500 is probably a minimum for what I would really like, something along the lines of a good used reproduction of a civil war era cap lock rifle like the Remington or Enfield. Maybe just bag it for now, but I know when I find the "deal" on the one I "love" it will probably be when I don't have the money so sort of leaning toward a cheap CVA just so I have a "smoke pole" of my own.

[mooman76]

Can't really make a good decision without seeing. The CVA Hunter and the cleanout screw. That screw is un needed and you can just leave in place. Remove nipple instead, in fact it is common for them to get stuck because people rarely remove them and then all of a sudden, someone trys and buggers it up. I usually remove them occasionally and place a drop of oil there so I can get it out. Currently I have one like yours I bought used that is that way. eventually I'll get around to removing it. Not because it is needed but just because it kind of bugs me. If the frosting is just on the outside, not a big deal. You can get a very small light and drop down the bore to see inside or drop a Nickle plated shell casing down to reflect a flash light to see inside. Those are pretty cheap prices and I don't think you'll go wrong with any of them.

The Hawkin, you can let the brass get a good patina on it or get some brass black. I'd say without looking at them, probably your best choice.

Second choice is a toss up between the CVA Deer Hunter and the Zoli but I myself would get the Zoli, just because I have allot of ML like the others.

[rfd]

as i've posted ad nauseam, those spanish built ml's will be nothing but trouble and a waste of yer budgeted dollar$. but clearly it's yer money and decision. good luck, you'll need it ........

[bob208]

buy the zoli. just glass bed the tang and back 1 inch of the barrel relieve under the barrel bands. that is what we do to make them shoot. the glass bedding will take care of the crack also.

[mooman76]

as i've posted ad nauseam, those spanish built ml's will be nothing but trouble and a waste of yer budgeted dollar$. but clearly it's yer money and decision. good luck, you'll need it ........

It' funny how many people out there have them and don't have a bit of trouble with them. I have quite a few myself and they haven't given me a bit of trouble. If they were really all that bad, they would have went out of business year ago.

[RogerDat]

As always good and helpful thoughts.
I mentioned the Spanish because I think it being stamped on the barrel might indicated when it was made and I'm just guessing that there is some truth to what both rfd and mooman76 point out. Things don't generally get folks talking negative without some issues having come up, on the other hand if it was not a satisfactory product for the price point no one would buy it. Why is it Lee comes to mind? Like the Lee stuff, but NOE, or Redding it isn't.

That hunter is frosty on the inside, outside was nice, did not have a light but that last inch was powdered evenly with fine rust. I could feel rifling whole lot better than I could see it. Thinking about it why the heck would the seller not have cleaned it first? I mean if it would clean up easily or well, why not go for some curb appeal? It is around 1/2 price of what I see them for online.

If I understand the idea, bedding would give the tang of the Zoli some help with taking the load by using some epoxy behind the breech and the tang. Not sure how it would help with the crack. If the wood was just glued not good, but if double ended finishing nails where used when the wood was glued back then it would be solid enough to be worth a refinish and some work to deal with the crack seam. From what I could see a replacement stock would run around $225 so if the rest is good and bought a replacement stock it would be a typical price for one in this condition? Just gives me the option to buy the stock later.

The Zoli or the good CVA which is like new are sounding like they are probably the best bets. Zoli has potential to be better but the CVA is good to go right now.

[rfd]

It' funny how many people out there have them and don't have a bit of trouble with them. I have quite a few myself and they haven't given me a bit of trouble. If they were really all that bad, they would have went out of business year ago.

Yes, yer absolutely right, they're not THAT bad, indeed. I seriously doubt they'll ever go out of business because the metal and wood they use is just dirt cheap lowered quality - not to mention the lock and trigger - so their ROI is guaranteed and they have a ready worldwide market for cheap ML's. But you will also get what you've paid for, and in my experience with owning, working on, and even rebuilding Dozens of offshore ML's, the spanish ones are in no way as good, nor as value prone as the those built by Investarms, particularly with concern about those patent breech plugs and barrel bores and locks and triggers. I'd rather spend $100 or so more and get a far better value, better durability, and the ability to work on their breeches somewhere down the road. But, it surely ain't my money others are spending ....

[dondiego]

He might be willing to bargain on the Zoli if you mention the crack...........or maybe he could sweeten the deal with some powder, a flask, or some other items that you definitely will be needing.

[RogerDat]

He did say he would check out the crack closer, but I'm sure he knew it was there. Man buys and sells guns. Couldn't have missed it. He was rolling a mold, some caps, and part of a container of FFg into a package for $235. Think part of what annoys me is he knew crack was there, never mentioned it. Very unpleasant surprise I drove 40 miles to get.

Deciding if I want to head back and buy one of them or just bag it for now.

There is a real difference between buying a first car and adding to a car collection. I do have a mental debate going on between a beat up Lincoln (Zoli) or a really clean low mileage Fiat (fancy CVA), with a possible beater Fiat (Hunter CVA) that might not need much to use and cost about the same as my last batch of used brass. I needed the brass however and know it is good brass and the price was good. ML rifle I'm not as sure.

The only real question on the Spanish issue is not are there potential shortcomings but will it be a purchase I regret or one that starts me down another fun filled path. Or addiction depending on who you ask. Drive 40 miles each way, then get it out when I get home am I happy or kind of "why did I do that".

[dondiego]

You can always sell a purchase that you regret. I prefer TC sidelocks over CVA sidelocks due to quality but many people have bought CVA's and got started in another aspect of our great hobby. They shoot well, just not the best quality. After a few weeks of use and cleaning, that gleaming brass will no longer glisten. You could also take a wet patch that has been down your bore and wipe it on the brass. The sulfur will take that shine off.

[RogerDat]

Decided to just pass on them all. If I buy what I really want I won't regret the decision. Appreciate the advice and did gain some take away knowledge.

Might just post in WTB what I am looking for, maybe use some lead or brass to supplement the cash so that I'm moving up a grade in the market. Have a good supply of solder, printers lead, and plain. Along with some brass I could offer so maybe I can work out a deal. Worst case I take the money and buy a check maker or two that have also been on my wish list.

Thanks again

[dondiego]

Keep looking on the used gun racks. One will show up that you like.

[mooman76]

Rogerdat, what are you looking for?

[RogerDat]

Rogerdat, what are you looking for?

The Zouave or an Enfield would be really great but tend to be outside my budget, the springfield or Mississippi style are also nice but not often for sale in my price range. I want a rifle that is a reasonable period companion for an 1863 Remington New Army so probably patterned from something around the civil war or before. Hawken was a possibility since they were in use then. Not into re-enacting so the 2 band & 3 band thing only matters to me in that it makes some less expensive since civil war groups won't use them, such as the Zouave.

So as a list:

Reasonable period companion for an 1863 Remington New Army C&B revolver.
Rifled with barrel and bore in decent condition.
Side lock percussion.
Good solid shooter, I want to miss because I'm lousy not the gun is.
I think I would prefer the flatter stock butt of the civil war military style to a curved butt with sharp heal and toe.
Not a restoration or project to fix. Got plenty of projects already.
Decent quality of manufacture. Can be a kit gun as long as it isn't poor quality.


I plan to shoot this, I don't plan to purchase a bunch of ML so I would like to buy something I will want to keep with this purchase. I'll take solid or well made over fancy. Don't mind if it has some wear, folks hunt with a rifle or spend range time with it then it will get dinged and rubbed a bit, as long as it was taken care of should be fine. I'll be adding to that wear, as I hope will the kids and grandkids so "never fired" condition is not a requirement. :-)

[RogerDat]

Oh dang nab it! I came across an Enfield Marked ShtLE with a V under it and GR under the crown and said rifle it nibbled into my ML funds.

I'm sure you guys will understand if anyone would.

[RogerDat]

Found It! A nice looking Zouave for $300. Wood, metal and bore were all decent. Only downside was the seam in front of the breach area (screw on barrel) however these sort of things are always a trade off unless one wants to spend enough to get it all. Made in Italy is only obvious manufacturer identification. Seller said EuroArms was maker.

Pretty rifle, will be wanting to get a sling, and a mold or molds so I can cast my own. For now purchased Hornady .570 round balls and .10 lubed patches. Pound of FFG, and 100 caps. Can't wait to shoot it, have to paint shed today so won't be today but soon.

Looking for suggestions on bullet molds for a Zouave, preference for Lee because of cost but suggestions on others are certainly welcome. I sometimes buy something to get started then later go for the long term purchase. I think round ball for sure but then there are the modified mini molds, REAL, and regular mini's with thick or thin skirts.

Also looking for suggestions on accessories, have seen cleaning/seating jags that looked like they were intended to help clear the fouling as one loaded, and stuck ball removers. Those would require a new ram rod, any reason to get wood over synthetic or vice versa?

Also the ball starter, I tend to think the T handle ones would be easier to carry or stow away since they are flat rather than having the big round ball at the end. Looks like starters are not used with mini's. What do most people use?

[shdwlkr]

When I used to get ML rifles I never really paid a great deal of attention to the outside of the firearm depending on what the asking price was. Last one I got was a TC big boar that looked terrible on the outside but the inside as in good shape and price reflected the outside looks so it was like half what others were and it worked just fine. Wished I still had it, but it was not meant to be. The price is the first thing I look at, then the outside condition, then see if they will run a patch down the barrel and lastly see if they will actually fire it. Yep got one a long time ago that wouldn't shoot, took it back to find the channel from the cap to the charge was plugged once that was cleaned out it was a fun rifle to shoot. Also helps to know your lgs store and the folks that work there as sometimes you can get things done that most places won't even think of doing.

[RogerDat]

The one I saw before had a piece of stock from behind the breech busted off and glued back on. Bore was a little iffy too. Turns out next time I saw the guy that he had that one for parts and meant to bring in the good one for me to check out but he brought the parts one instead.

First and foremost they have to work decently but given a choice since I buy so few I like good or at least decent looking too if I can afford it. But I think I said someplace in here it does need to be reasonably accurate. When I miss I want it to be my shortcomings not the hardware coming up short. Me getting better is cheaper than gun smithing and parts. But for the old mil-surps I can admire either mint condition or battered and showing the decades equally.

[nagantguy]

Roger, I'm very glad you found your smoke pole! I know there has been some close calls and near misses, happy you finally scored and brought one home!

[Fly]

Me myself I like the CVA Hawkins best for price & looks. If the bores good you can't lose on that. My CVA mountain rifle will
shoot with about any I have.

Fly