Loading small charges with solvent instead of filler

[destrux]

Has anyone here experimented with or heard of anyone else experimenting with using solvent to bind small charges to the base of the cavity in the casing instead of using a filler material?

I was reading some information about Finnish and Russian ammo (http://www.brownells.com/ammunition/index.htm) of the WWI-WWII era and found commentary on several sites saying that it was common to spray acetone into the charged casings with a perfume sprayer type device. What it would do is dissolve some of the nitrocellulose in the powder and stick it together in a loose clump and glue it a bit to the casing. It served to hold the small charge in place against the primer in a uniform manner. The same way some people use fiber fill or cornmeal filler to do the same... but the bound powder burns completely and won't leave debris in a suppressor like filler materials do. (That's my major problem with using filler, it makes hard clumps of gunk in my suppressor).

Here's a link to one of the sites I found it on. Search the page for "solvent" to find it unless you have some time to read. http://guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane3.html

[jsizemore]

I'd be interested to see if it affects the primer. Old mercuric vs. newer lead styphnate?

[destrux]

I'd be interested to see if it affects the primer. Old mercuric vs. newer lead styphnate?

One of the pages I read did mention that they found it was important to use a fine mist sprayer to mist only a small amount to effect the top layer of powder so that the solvent wouldn't reach the primer in any sort of liquid form.

I'm going to give this a shot, literally. I'm currently loading 4.5gr charges of several types of pistol powder in 7.62x39 cases below a Lee 155gr cast bullet for use in my CZ527, and they would benefit from this a lot I think. I just need to test and see which powder reacts to the acetone the best.

I think an accuracy test shot over the chrono will be in my future plans if all this goes as planned. Compare loose powder to "glued" powder.

If this works i can imagine misting a bunch of charged cases at once in a loading block using an airbrush would work well for bulk loading.

[RU shooter]

Interesting to say the least ! I did an experiment using my normal plinker load in the 30-06 with 6 gr bullseye try to position the powder by raising the rifle before each shot and another group lowering the muzzle and yet another doing nothing but work the bolt and shoot . Honestly the best results for 10 rd groups were the ones I just loaded and fired normally . That was with Bullseye and in a much larger case don't know if other similar powders are position sensitive or if case size would alter my test results

[Shiloh]

Not for me.

Someone makes a powder pellet like the pyrodex stuff, I might try that.

SHiloh

[Boolseye]

I'll use Dacron–that's as far as I'll go. And only with slower powders, 2400 and up.

[bangerjim]

Dacron here.....ONLY. Why mess with success.

[RoyEllis]

Not something I'd care for....aerosolized acetone can flash burn/explode too readily, not something I want around gunpowder. JMHO

[bpatterson84]

Experimentation is the highest form of humanity, I'm curious to see results! Dont mind the naysayers, I'd try it if I had any appropriate loads, but mine pretty well fill the case! Seems pretty reasonable to me, acetone should work fine, just let it sit over night to allow offgassing before sealing it up with a boolit, wet powder is going to mess with your burnrate, if not inhibit ignition. Speaking of burnrate, you will be altering surface area, so start low.

[big bore 99]

Interesting read. Thanks.

[HangFireW8]

I've tried it with Acetone.

In small quantities, it is not strong enough to survive recoil while in the magazine. Single fed it can work OK.

In large quantities, it negatively effects burn and velocity consistency. Expect some squibs and bloopers.

I concluded to really do it right would require a change in the powder manufacturing process, and I don't have the ability to do that, so I haven't pursued it any further.

That archive of PT Kekkonen's work really puts US gun "journalism" to shame. We haven't had a true historian and scientist gun writer to compare with Kekkonen since Phil Sharpe died in 1960. From the 30's to the 70's we had some good correspondents and reporters who were willing to tell the truth, but since they've died off, the modern crop won't risk giving up their free hunts and free equipment.

[Walter Laich]

I've used 1/4" thick sections of 1/2" foam backer rod from HD. It's where the weather stripping is.
Put powder in put the foam 'disk' in push in down to top of powder and continue as normal.

When my brother's arthritis got worst we down loaded his APP loads and used them to keep powder tight to bottom of case. Works well and nothing gets left in barrel (foam doesn't melt and stick)

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This is nothing I'd try,.
Don't some smokeless powders have a 'coating' ?
would an acetone spritz effect that coating, and hence change the burnt rate?

[destrux]

After some tests I did last night I found pretty much what Hangfire said to be true. Doesn't hold it in place very tight. I think feeding through the magazine and recoil would dislodge most of the powder. I was using up to two drops of acetone to try to get it to hold in place well. It didn't seem to effect the burn rate with the 4.5gr charges I was testing with, at least burning unconfined. I didn't do any live fire tests.

If I weren't firing through suppressors I'd certainly use fillers, but I haven't found a filler yet that doesn't leave melted gunk or compacted gunk in the baffles.

I suppose I will stick to just putting the powder in loose. I just started loading these subsonic bolt action loads with pistol powder and the only reason I was looking at this was I was a little spooked about all the talk of detonation and SEE on some of the sites where I found load data.

[destrux]

This is nothing I'd try,.
Don't some smokeless powders have a 'coating' ?
would an acetone spritz effect that coating, and hence change the burnt rate?

That was a concern I had too. The only reason I was going to try it was because it had apparently been done with success in the past.

[Bent Ramrod]

I recall reading that a lot of the European powders were relatively thick flat flakes, with angular ends. Something like that might have stuck together in a layer with more strength than a stick, ball, or light round flake powder like Unique would do.

That's an interesting experiment, though. I wouldn't mess with any light charge of slow burning powder, stuck together or not, in a bottlenecked case because of the SEE phenomenon. The acetone would remove some of the deterrent on the surface of these powders, making the resulting burn even more unpredictable. However, with the usual light charges of pistol and shotgun powders in the cast boolit handbooks, I wouldn't expect anything catastrophic to happen.

As far as post-Sharpe scientific loaders go, there was Homer Powley, who gave us that slide rule computer for loading. Elmer Keith did not have the equipment or the training, but he had the proper scientific instincts. And Ken Waters was a scientific reloader as well, who tried to keep the measurements at a level the home reloader could do. But you are right; they're all gone and the magazines don't seem to have space for experiments any more. Probably the Legal Department has a say in those matters. Fortunately, there's plenty of Bandwidth on the Net! :mrgreen:

[45-70 Chevroner]

I know it will take bluing off, I just wonder what it will do to brass over a period of time. I also know it will melt most plastics.

[gwpercle]

After some tests I did last night I found pretty much what Hangfire said to be true. Doesn't hold it in place very tight. I think feeding through the magazine and recoil would dislodge most of the powder. I was using up to two drops of acetone to try to get it to hold in place well. It didn't seem to effect the burn rate with the 4.5gr charges I was testing with, at least burning unconfined. I didn't do any live fire tests.

If I weren't firing through suppressors I'd certainly use fillers, but I haven't found a filler yet that doesn't leave melted gunk or compacted gunk in the baffles.

I suppose I will stick to just putting the powder in loose. I just started loading these subsonic bolt action loads with pistol powder and the only reason I was looking at this was I was a little spooked about all the talk of detonation and SEE on some of the sites where I found load data.
I think your plan, no fillers , is best. I'm not sure I completely believe the spontaneous explosion of light charges of pistol powder thing. I do know the wrong filler can do damage.
Most of the photo's I've seen look a lot like double charges of pistol powder that the loader doesn't want to admit to double charging. I've been loading cast in 30-06 , 30-30 and 303 British with Unique and Red Dot for many years with no fillers .
Never had a "detonation" but while loading some Lee 115 grain cast FN in 30-30 Win. , over 6.0 grains of Unique , I did manage to double charge one case. This was for a Winchester model 94 so no damage was done , the case didn't want to extract easily, but I knew exactly what happened and I wasn't going to say I had a "detonation" !
Red Dot , according to C. E. Harris, is not supposed to be position sensitive. I don't use fillers with Unique or Red Dot and have found no difference in accuracy when tipping the barrel down or barrel up before shooting. I will confess to usually tipping the barrel up before shooting...just because I'm a creature of habit.
Gary

[MT Gianni]

That was a concern I had too. The only reason I was going to try it was because it had apparently been done with success in the past.
Don't confuse wartime desperation with target success. There are plenty of powders with data for light loads.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

only filler I have used to date was pieces of cotton balls to keep the small charges of Clays at the back of a 38 case with a 105g SWC.
Looked like gray feathers floating in the air after each shot. Really helped with the inconsistent ignition we were getting before.
Finally switched over to 125g RFN.
CF

[M-Tecs]

I know it will take bluing off, I just wonder what it will do to brass over a period of time. I also know it will melt most plastics.

Acetone is a great degreaser. It does not remove bluing.

[Boolseye]

I have definitely found tipping the gun first to make a big difference with some rounds, such as the Nagant revolver with 3 grains of red dot. I'm not sure I buy the "position insensitive" claim on that powder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bangerjim]

I know it will take bluing off, I just wonder what it will do to brass over a period of time. I also know it will melt most plastics.

Unless you have a real *** bluing job (virtually surface painted on), acetone will NOT remove it!!!!! No way....no how. And it will NOT bother brass. Or steel. Or nickel plating. Or any other metals for that matter.

It WILL soften and dissolve most paints and plastics.

It is a great hydrocarbon solvent used in everything from laquer thinner to fingernail polish remover to many paint products. I go thru gallons of the stuff in my shops - - - refinishing antiques.

[TimGS]

I posted this over at 300BlkTalk also.

This idea intrigued me since I have been working on improving my 150 gr subsonic load for my 8" barrel AR15 300 Blackout SBR.

I will keep this short, and give the high lights of my experiments this weekend.

After quite a bit of trial and error the best way I came up with to "glue" the powder in the bottom of the case was to use a Q-tip to swab a small amount of high purity acetone around the bottom third of the empty case, quickly drop the powder, then put a small drop of the same acetone onto the top of the powder charge and let it sit open for about 3 hours. I loaded 5 with the acetone and 5 without.

I have a known good recipe for 150 gr Hornady fmj @ ~1000 fps, 8.5 gr LiLgun, col = 2.050, cci400, moderate crimp.

The normal recipe gives me ~980 fps but the spread is generally higher than I would like, usually around 80 fps, that is what I am working on improving.

So the normal loads averaged 953 fps and spread of 85, ~1 in group at 50 yds, perfect function.

The acetone loads averaged 1086 fps, and spread of 32, ~1.5 in group at 50 yds, 4 of the 5 either failed to feed or eject properly, it acted as if it was under gassed.

I did not see any un-burnt powder of excessive fowling, with the acetone rounds, and no signs of excess pressure.

As we know there are benefits to having the powder held in the bottom of the case, hence the increased velocity and improved spread, but it appears the acetone changed the gas producing qualities of the powder.

Interesting experiment but I don't think it is really a viable option, at least not for what I am doing. Maybe other powders would work better, or for a bolt gun.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Acetone is a great degreaser. It does not remove bluing.
I guess I have to bite my tongue, I went out and tried it on the lug of a TC barrel, you've made a believer out of me, I don't remember where I got that. Some times I jump in with both feet and land on my head.
,