1911 Bushing Grease

[catmandu]

I was looking thru my notes and found some tips I saved to go over when I knew more. An elderly military armorer told me to use Cimcool Center Saver grease on my bushing and never take the bushing off the barrel. I agree with not taking it off but would like to know your thoughts on the grease. Of course they are referring to a match barrel/ bushing.

Paul in WNY

[35remington]

I'm wondering if bushing grease is like muffler bearings.

I'm not sure about putting grease on something that never gets removed in a cast bullet gun, especially a bushing. Or even a jacketed bullet gun. A slight bit of oil on the gun is SOP in a 1911 before shooting, so why have a dissimilar lube on a gun that is gonna get lubed anyway?

Reapplication of grease periodically means the excess goes somewhere. What do you bet it builds up under that which is never removed?

From being a bullseye shooter myself.....I know we get alibis. Trouble is a malfunction always cost concentration and points and I was very interested in having my guns run reliably. I was also under no illusion that the human is not the weak link in the offhand accuracy equation.

I did remove my tight bushings with care and am under no impression that making sure the gun was reasonably clean harmed accuracy in the slightest bit.

I mean.......really? The gun pounds itself slamming forward and backward when fired and we're worried that removing the bushing once in a rare while will harm accuracy somehow?

When you think about it the gun beats some of its accuracy potential away every time you fire a tilt breech pistol like this.

if I have a part that is designed to be removed when the pistol is maintained then, at the very least, I should remove it once in a while when maintaining the pistol.

[35remington]

Let me also point out that I knew guys that used Dunk kits to clean the pistol, but it's hard to get all the sediment out of the pistol if the slide never clears the dust cover in the solvent bucket when you're shooting a lot of cast bullets between cleanings. Point the gun down and the crud gets in the recoil spring plug, which means the dreck winds up near the bushing. Point it up and it accumulates around the guide rod.

Common to let the dunk kit get pretty dirty under reuse, which means you clean with dirty solvent.

I also observed some of these guys haphazardly scrubbing their barrels through the muzzle because they didn't ever want to remove the bushing.

Dont get me wrong.....I didn't remove the bushing any more than I absolutely had to. But every once in a while you should, before you have to at the wrong time.

[JSnover]

I've never heard anyone advise against removing that bushing. The way it engages the slide keeps it indexed to barrel, it's not as if you'll install it backwards or upside down and accelerate wear.
Function and reliability are critical but we're not talking about overhauling a Formula One engine.

[Outpost75]

Any grease or oil left in the bushing, with the pistol not being disassembled for periodic cleaning, will attract dirt and dirt, which will wear out the bushing pre-maturely.

When we accurized match guns we coated the barrel locking lugs, slide stop, slide rails and barrel bushing with Atcheson DAG graphite in an alcohol suspension. This was also applied to the muzzle end of the barrel, a drop or two being applied with a Q tip when the pistol was cleaned. By the time the pistol had been "run in" and was functioning reliably, several hundred rounds. It was no longer needed. The slide rails would be lubed with one drop of Dexron II ATF applied with an eye dropper on each side, and the slide cycled several times to distribute it. That is all.

[35remington]

Yes.

If if taking it off gives you the hives, let the slide/barrel assembly soak in Ed's Red muzzle down before removal. But sometime you need the ability to remove it and should resign yourself to the idea that at some point it will be necessary.

Doing so once in a while will cause no accuracy harm anyone is capable of measuring. I mean, it's not like you're gonna pound it out with rocks. A bushing wrench and lube will cause no problems.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

The best threads always have someone who's opinion is controversial to some readers, so I'll be the guy. As far as I know the lubrication product that was recommended to you was designed for lathe center lubrication, to be long lasting and keep the center cool as heat is what ruins them.
Perhaps not a bad choice for the use you are proposing, but many lubes will do as well. Myself, I use a mixture of white lithium-based grease and 30 wt. motor oil (no additives). I'm sure there are lots of other choices that will do as well. But I certainly don't believe in never removing the barrel bushing from the barrel. Bushings are tight in two ways, the way their lugs engage the inside of the slide and the way they fit onto the barrel itself. You can't remove the barrel from the slide to properly clean the inside of the slide without removing the bushing from the slide and in the case of a tightly fitted bushing you need a bushing wrench. Once you've got the bushing turned to the side you can push the barrel out the front and access the inside of the slide for cleaning, and you can clean the interior and exterior of the barrel. To clean the exterior of the barrel you can slide the bushing forward and backward on the barrel without removing it, but if there has been sand, grit, brass particles, etc. trapped in the lube on the barrel it has likely become trapped beneath the bushing and the barrel and if not cleaned it will continue to abrade both pieces with continued use. It's kind of like changing the oil in your car, but not changing the filter. So I believe you should take the bushing off of the barrel, give it a good cleaning as well, and then re-lube and reassemble. If removal and reassembly of the barrel and bushing is going to cause any appreciable wear it will only be after hundreds of such maintenance sessions.

[35remington]

That response didn't sound controversial, at least in context of the responses so far.

[M-Tecs]

I've never heard anyone advise against removing that bushing. The way it engages the slide keeps it indexed to barrel, it's not as if you'll install it backwards or upside down and accelerate wear.
Function and reliability are critical but we're not talking about overhauling a Formula One engine.

In the match pistols the bushings are oversize and very tight. Continued removal loosens them. No need to remove the bushing ever. Just hold the slide back and push the slide stop out. Unless I am building a 1911 I never remove the bushing.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks, .35rem! I know that there are bulls eye, bowling pin, combat course shooters that shun disassembling their 1911s for a good cleaning for even as long as an entire season, believing that they will change the accuracy. Their choice. The old 1911 is very reliable. But once in a while one of them will just stop working, all gunked up, and about as useful as a piece of concrete. "Oh, o.k.--that's when I'll disassemble and clean it." Yes, but if it was in the middle of a match which you lost...... Proper maintenance is good insurance.

[JSnover]

In the match pistols the bushings are oversize and very tight. Continued removal loosens them. No need to remove the bushing ever. Just hold the slide back and push the slide stop out. Unless I am building a 1911 I never remove the bushing.
I agree that the bushing doesn't have to be removed but until now had never heard the word 'never' applied to it.
You gunsmiths have got me curious now. From a strictly mechanical point of view, one might assume the bushing is the sacrificial part; cheaper and easier to replace. Would that hold true for guns?

[M-Tecs]

The bushing gets replaced when the barrel gets replaced and the gun is rebuilt. Sooner if need.

[35remington]

Given that the bushing must be turned one way and then the other to remove the plug and reassemble the gun there is likely no difference between turning the bushing and removing it.

The bushing must be moved unless the gun is never taken apart. If friction on a lubed surface is the worry, worry about turning the bushing as well as removing it. A reasonable corollary would be to never turn the bushing if wear was really the problem.

[Char-Gar]

Bushing grease...say what? I will use a little grease on the slide rails of a service/field pistol but never on tight match pistol or on any barrel or bushing. I have been messing with 1911s for a very long time, but this is the first time I have heard of bushing grease.

[Char-Gar]

Thanks, .35rem! I know that there are bulls eye, bowling pin, combat course shooters that shun disassembling their 1911s for a good cleaning for even as long as an entire season, believing that they will change the accuracy. Their choice. The old 1911 is very reliable. But once in a while one of them will just stop working, all gunked up, and about as useful as a piece of concrete. "Oh, o.k.--that's when I'll disassemble and clean it." Yes, but if it was in the middle of a match which you lost...... Proper maintenance is good insurance.

Absolutely, many thousands of rounds can be fired in a match season and the gunk will build up. I have a tightly fitted Clark match Ruger MkII that I have had lock up during a match due to lack of cleaning.

[M-Tecs]

Given that the bushing must be turned one way and then the other to remove the plug and reassemble the gun there is likely no difference between turning the bushing and removing it.

The bushing must be moved unless the gun is never taken apart. If friction on a lubed surface is the worry, worry about turning the bushing as well as removing it. A reasonable corollary would be to never turn the bushing if wear was really the problem.

That is 100% incorrect. I've been building match 1911's for 30 years. Normally I pull the slide for cleaning after every range session and I never remove the bushing. No need to pull the bushing until it requires replacement.

[35remington]

Tell me how you reassemble the pistol under spring load, then.

This also means you never turn the bushing or remove the plug, correct?
Please give me a response on that particular point.

I will tell you I remain highly skeptical that infrequent removal of a bushing can degrade accuracy to any measurable degree. The pistol itself is more limiting than bushing fit.

[35remington]

I am also presuming that your barrels never come out of the slide if the bushing never comes out and is never turned.

[catmandu]

I'm really enjoying the replies to my question. I can see reasons for believing either method and Paul Harvey would be proud.

Paul in WNY

[35remington]

Given clearances between barrel and bushing and slide and frame must exceed tight "never remove" bushing to slide fit, perhaps someone would care to explain why a bushing that is fit to slide with less clearance than either of those other relevant factors yet still being removable can materially affect accuracy.

To me it's rather like being convinced removing the micrometer adjustment on a bulldozer will affect its function. Look at the clearances needed for a 1911 to function and a more proper perspective will be obtained.

Remind yourself the gun has to bang back and forth or it won't work. Also remind yourself that a 1911 has less accuracy potential than a fixed barrel .22 automatic no matter what you do to it.

This will help put the relevance of whether the bushing should ever be removed or not in the proper perspective.

[M-Tecs]

Tell me how you reassemble the pistol under spring load, then.

This also means you never turn the bushing or remove the plug, correct?
Please give me a response on that particular point.

I will tell you I remain highly skeptical that infrequent removal of a bushing can degrade accuracy to any measurable degree. The pistol itself is more limiting than bushing fit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZufdDcPSs

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMUH8rwW3iQ

[Mk42gunner]

I come from more of a service pistol than a bullseye match pistol back ground, and while I can see the benefits of a tight barrel bushing; there is such a thing as taking a good idea too far.

Robert

[M-Tecs]

Given clearances between barrel and bushing and slide and frame must exceed tight "never remove" bushing to slide fit, perhaps someone would care to explain why a bushing that is fit to slide with less clearance than either of those other relevant factors yet still being removable can materially affect accuracy.

To me it's rather like being convinced removing the micrometer adjustment on a bulldozer will affect its function. Look at the clearances needed for a 1911 to function and a more proper perspective will be obtained.

Remind yourself the gun has to bang back and forth or it won't work. Also remind yourself that a 1911 has less accuracy potential than a fixed barrel .22 automatic no matter what you do to it.

This will help put the relevance of whether the bushing should ever be removed or not in the proper perspective.

On service grade guns it makes no difference. On bullseye guns that are capable of sub 1 1/2" ten shot groups at 50 yards it does make a difference.

After I got used to disassembly and assembly without removing the bushing I prefer it for all 1911 disassembly including stock service grade. Makes no difference to me how people disassemble their 1911's unless it's one I built.

Posting incorrect information does bother me. Stating a 1911 can't be disassembled or reassembled without removing the bushing is incorrect and 100% BS.

[35remington]

I've disassembled my 1911 that way for years.

I asked for reassembly without turning or removing the bushing.

Stating it makes an accuracy difference while glossing over the fact that a number of other areas on the pistol must have much larger clearances or it will not function is not at all convincing in making your point.

[35remington]

And if the bushing doesn't come out the barrel remains in the slide.

[M-Tecs]

I've disassembled my 1911 that way for years.



Really?

The bushing must be moved unless the gun is never taken apart.

[35remington]

Yes, really. If the barrel and bushing never come out if the slide it's pretty easy to see the gun is not fully taken apart.

Since the only way the barrel comes out of the slide with a bushing gun is for the bushing to get out of the way.....I know of zero exceptions to that.

[35remington]

How about that non moving bushing reassembly video?

[22cf45]

I am in total agreement with M-Tecs. I'm a bullseye shooter and have been for over 30 years, regularly shoot in excess of 5000 rounds of .45 each year and have never, never taken the bushing out of any of my 1911 45's. In fact, my pistolsmith threatened my life if I ever did:razz:. Repeated removal of the bushing will undoubtedly cause the fit to become looser over time and there goes your accuracy.

How do I clean 'em, easy. Take off the slide, take out the extractor and firing pin, take the grips off and put the whole mess in a tank of stanasol and Risilone. After soaking and draining, blow it all out, clean the barrel. Oil it up and put it all back together, no big deal! How often do I clean? I'd say every 1000 rounds or so and right before a match.
Phil

[35remington]

And yet the bushing must be turned sometime no matter what. The harm occasional turning/removal engenders is very open to question. Looser tolerances that must exist elsewhere override the significance of bushing removal and turning.

It still stays tighter than other accuracy critical fitments on the gun even so. If you want to search for what truly limits accuracy in a 1911 you need to look elsewhere.

While a few over worry that turning a bushing carefully by hand once in a while horribly degrades accuracy, the gun bangs away and frictions away the other tolerances fit to the rest of the gun with considerably more friction, force and impact just in being shot.

Where is the worry about the gun rubbing and banging together everywhere else?

What profit is there worrying about a part that rarely moves and forgetting about the accuracy critical ones that interact more violently?

I submit that if moving a bushing once in a while worries you, better not shoot the gun either. It pounds itself and rubs its parts together at reasonably high speed when shot.

Forget about somewhat violent banging and friction that happens thousands of times....and worry about more gentle bushing movement that happens much, much less often?

How much sense does that make?

If your pistol smith advocates not removing the bushing, ask him, not entirely tongue in cheek, whether he recommends shooting it. Then follow up by asking how it is possible that one thing that happens gently and rarely is a concern to accuracy and the other that happens much more frequently and violently is not.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Looks like we won't resolve our difference of opinion here, but at least the O.P. can benefit by reading several different viewpoints and there isn't a lot more to say about it. Now here's an interesting aspect of the barrel/bushing thing: over it's many years of existence the 1911 has been made with the bushing built into the slide, not a separate piece, and also bushingless slides that use reverse taper barrels have been tried, the theory being that the reverse taper acts like a wedge and locks up the barrel and slide tightly each time when returning to battery. Seems that neither have really attained match accuracy, if 1 1/2" 5-shot holes at 50 yds. is the standard, but do o.k. at combat accuracy. I like the theory of the reverse taper, because wear should automatically be compensated for by the design. The last company I remember utilizing this system was Para Ord with some of their smaller models.

[John Taylor]

I'm not going to get into weather the bushing should be removed. Grease or oil will attract dust and cause wear. I found out that small amounts of ATF will dry out and become sticky, not good on an auto or any other firearm. Please do not use WD40 on a gun, I get a couple a year that will not function because of it. If you feel you need oil then a good sewing machine oil would probably be best, and then very little. Dry lube when the gun is broke in would probably be best.