Lee .308 Win FL Die Too Tight? Really Difficult Operation And Ugly Case Necks.

[DougGuy]

I got a Lee Deluxe Die Set in .308 Winchester and I have serious concerns about the FL sizing die. It is VERY DIFFICULT to get a case into the die far enough to de-prime it, and it really is doing a job on the necks. This is fired PMC brass, about .342" or so OD on the necks of the unsized cases, Running these cases into the FL die takes superhuman effort, and sizes the necks down way too far. This brass in the photo has only partially been forced into the FL die, with the pin and the hex nut removed. Look at the amount the die is swaging down the case neck!

You can see in the photo, the neck is less than .330" where the die is attempting to size it, and there is a .299" pin gage in the case mouth which is the largest pin gage that will go into the mouth. NO WAY will I ever get a .308" boolit into this case without buckling and crushing the neck.

Is this die just defective? Case lube is Franklin Armory, couldn't find any lanolin here locally. I have Gander Mtn and Cabela's and Bass Pro all within an hour of me so getting a decent commercially made case lube won't be an issue even though I would rather have lanolin and HEET mixed.

What do you think? Call Lee and ask about what the dimensions on the inside of the neck portion are supposed to be? I have a Sunnen hone sitting here so enlarging the neck portion will not be difficult and it will be a LOT smoother than the rough finish it has now. It looks terrible inside where the neck would be resized. I can only get a .3295" pin gage into the neck part of the die, a .330" pin will not go.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/20160717_201952_zpsvvceact7.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/20160717_201952_zpsvvceact7.jpg.html)

[dragon813gt]

Go to pretty much any store and buy mink oil boot dressing. It's lanolin and works great as a case lube. It's what I use for case forming and rifle brass sizing. I have to ask if you lubed the inside of the case neck? This is usually where things jam up for me.

[HeavyMetal]

send it back to Lee, thats why they have both a warranty and customer service, then hope someone actually understands you problem, I'll suggest you send three fired case's as well.

[leeggen]

DougGuy what size is the ball that pushes the neck back out for bullet size? Another thought I have is maybe that die just got past QC and was never finish dressed to polish the neck to required size.
CD

[DougGuy]

DougGuy what size is the ball that pushes the neck back out for bullet size? Another thought I have is maybe that die just got past QC and was never finish dressed to polish the neck to required size.
CD

^^^^ That sounds quite logical as it is rough in the part where the neck gets sized and mirror smooth in the part where the rest of the case gets sized.

The pin is .307" so once it is pulled out of the case it will then accept a .308" boolit but there is no reason for the neck to be worked as much as this die is working it and it is very rough looking inside. I will call Lee tomorrow.

[Fishman]

I had the same problem with a .243 wssm size die. Sized the first one ok, but lots of effort. Stuck the second one solid, and I damaged the decapping stem extracting that case. Inside diameter of the sized case was .229! Clearly a defective die. I did not call lee since I damaged the stem, but it was clearly their screw up. This was the first time I ever had an issue with any lee die, and I have quite a few.

[jimkim]

I got a Lee Deluxe Die Set in .308 Winchester and I have serious concerns about the FL sizing die. It is VERY DIFFICULT to get a case into the die far enough to de-prime it, and it really is doing a job on the necks. This is fired PMC brass, about .342" or so OD on the necks of the unsized cases, Running these cases into the FL die takes superhuman effort, and sizes the necks down way too far. This brass in the photo has only partially been forced into the FL die, with the pin and the hex nut removed. Look at the amount the die is swaging down the case neck!

You can see in the photo, the neck is less than .330" where the die is attempting to size it, and there is a .299" pin gage in the case mouth which is the largest pin gage that will go into the mouth. NO WAY will I ever get a .308" boolit into this case without buckling and crushing the neck.

Is this die just defective? Case lube is Franklin Armory, couldn't find any lanolin here locally. I have Gander Mtn and Cabela's and Bass Pro all within an hour of me so getting a decent commercially made case lube won't be an issue even though I would rather have lanolin and HEET mixed.

What do you think? Call Lee and ask about what the dimensions on the inside of the neck portion are supposed to be? I have a Sunnen hone sitting here so enlarging the neck portion will not be difficult and it will be a LOT smoother than the rough finish it has now. It looks terrible inside where the neck would be resized. I can only get a .3295" pin gage into the neck part of the die, a .330" pin will not go.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/20160717_201952_zpsvvceact7.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/20160717_201952_zpsvvceact7.jpg.html)
To be honest I'd probably do the wrong thing and ream the neck, after I made sure there were no other machining problems, rather than do the right thing and let Lee fix it. I wondered if it was mislabeled, until I saw the neck diameter. It still could be. I'm wondering if a 7.35mm Carcano reamer got used instead.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

[DougGuy]

Looking in the die they just never polished out the part that does the neck sizing. It is as-machined by whatever process they rough machine the die body with.

It is in the mail to Lee.

They COULD improve their customer service at times like these, I called them and they acted like they were insulted that I went to the trouble to find their VERY HIDDEN phone number. the tech I spoke with Peter seemed quite unconcerned and would not tell me any details about the ID of the die, and I suggested that they could just send a new die body based on our verbal conversation and they would not.

If they KNOW the die is defective, they should step up and take the opportunity to earn praise instead they took the opportunity to be pessimistic about it and make me wait until the parts travel by snail mail to and from their factory.

My money was good enough for them, but my word wasn't.

[WebMonkey]

Sorry you got a bad experience with Lee. That stinks.
I have only 1 call to their support line and that was about an unmarked Lee loader.
After measuring it for them, they 'looked it up, and sent me the insert card gratis.

They need to be more consistent with their customer care. I feel bad when i compliment them then they hose the next guy.
:(

[jmort]

I have never had a bad experience with Lee customer service, but other have obviously. I agree, it would be nice if the customer service were universally good/great.

[dragon813gt]

Sorry to hear about how they treated you. They want you to use their online system for warranty claims. It's quick and easy to use. Last time I used it I received an email, saying a new die was on the way, an hour after submitting the claim.

I ordered a bulge buster kit and received it yesterday. Overlooked the part in the directions where I was supposed to remove the crimp sleeve from the FCD. No wonder that piece of brass didn't want to move anymore :laugh:

Anyway, went online to order a new one. Cost was something like $3. Figured I would order some spare pistol decappers and decapper clamps to make the shipping worth it. To my surprise the cost for the parts was $0 and all I had to pay was shipping. These weren't warranty item since I screwed up the crimp sleeve and wanted spares. So no charge for spare parts is good w/ me :)

[DougGuy]

I submitted a ticket and showed them shipping information where the die was shipped, tracking, copied the letter that I stuck in the mail with the die and tried to attach the same photo at the top of this thread, I asked them to simply replace the defective die. Let's see if they send one our or if they wait until the carcass arrives..

Not Lee-menting, I like their stuff and have only had a few things that just weren't worth the time it took to debug them, for the most part you gotta accept that a little polishing, deburring, cleaning, and tweaking will need to be done, and in some cases some re-engineering and re-fabricating so that their stuff will function properly. I never bitched I just did it. The things I thought might help others I posted with pics and text of how and why. This is the first piece I have ever sent back, in the 30+yrs I have been using Lee.

[DougGuy]

Lee called. They didn't say anything about replacing the die, repairing the die, they wanted $6 to remove a stuck case. I explained that the case wasn't stuck, I put it in the die with my fingers for shipping so they could see what the die was doing to the neck of the case. Boy this one sure ain't looking good.

[ReloaderFred]

I haven't had to use Lee's customer service, primarily because I don't have many Lee products, but this sounds like it's bordering on the ridiculous on their part. Just send the damned die and fix the returned one! How difficult is that? In the time they've spent arguing with you, they could have replaced the die and made you a happy customer and moved on.

I have one of their carbide .45 acp dies in a drawer that is so large it barely touches a fired case, even with a maximum load. Rather than deal with Lee, I just put it away and figured someday I'll find a use for it. Haven't yet, but maybe someday..........

Now if the CS guy at Lee will just make up his mind to do what's right for the customer, they may be able to salvage this relationship..

Hope this helps.

Fred

[DougGuy]

I have one of their carbide .45 acp dies in a drawer that is so large it barely touches a fired case, even with a maximum load. Rather than deal with Lee, I just put it away and figured someday I'll find a use for it. Haven't yet, but maybe someday..........


Fred

I might have a use for it. My avatar gun is a Uberti with .4565" throats in the cylinder, I size to .456" and that sizing die might make it easier on sizing brass fired in that gun.. Think it would resize .45 Colt brass?

Let me know if you get tired of looking at it!

Doug

[ReloaderFred]

I'll run one through it and see what it does, Doug. If it works, I'll let you know.

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

Doug,

I sized two .45 Colt cases through it. One measured .478" OD and the other measured .480" OD, both prior to sizing. After sizing, they both measured .470" OD.

If this is what you're looking for, let me know.

Fred

[DougGuy]

I went and measured several pieces of .45 Schofield brass that I sized with the Schofield dies and they are right on .470" as well. That means I can use that die for the cases that are used in the Uberti, *IF* they are any different than what the .45 Colt die sizes them to. Couldn't lay my hands on the bag of sized and primed .45 Colt brass that was done with the .45 Colt die to see if there is any difference.

SAAMI specs for the schofield specify a .454" boolit and the Lee dies -may- be sized for this diameter instead of .451" I will know when I find that bag of brass.

Thanks for checking it out for me. I may have the same size die here already.

Looks like I hijacked my own Lee thread. Apologies...

[ReloaderFred]

Just let me know. And to get the thread back on track, Lee should still just replace the die they "forgot to finish", no questions asked.

Fred

[DougGuy]

Lee sent an email saying the die was sent to Peter, who I suppose is one of their technical people, he is the one who acted like "how DARE you call us on the phone after we had so laboriously HIDDEN the phone number on our webpage so numbskulls like you couldn't call us.." Very negative attitude, wouldn't tell me how big the die was supposed to be in the neck, wouldn't send out another die to replace it.

Lee needs to SERIOUSLY look at the image employees like this are sending to customers. Or maybe Dillon will just send him a salesman of the month award..

[HangFireW8]

I won't excuse Lee's customer service, but I can explain it. They get phone calls all day long saying dimensions are wrong- dies, molds, you name it. Most of the time, the problem is the reloader... so they just don't buy it until they've seen it. How do I know this? I asked them, and they told me.

I've figured out how to deal with Lee on these issues. I document everything very clearly (like your excellent photo) in print, and send it back. This always works. The one time it almost didn't work, they sent me a new mold with a different set of problems, wouldn't close due to an improperly staked alignment pin. I sent it back with a clear explanation, and got a good one.

A lot of people get poor service from Lee because they write a long treatise stating their most excellent mechanical knowledge, how terribly they've been treated, a short detour into the 400 year old history of reloading metallic cartridges, what JMB's original intent was when he invented the parent cartridge, etc., etc., and somewhere in there is their problem.

I just stick with the facts.

If you can't handle this kind of warranty service, buy RCBS or Dillon. I find it worth the risk, but then again I don't spend hours and hours stressing over the situation. I take a digital pic, make a short write-up, print a USPS ClickNShip label, and it's in the next day's mail. At work I've rejected or RMA'd countless parts, I just can't get worked up about it anymore. It's not like I take it personally if something I bought is less than perfection. I just play by the rules.

Remember, I've had 100% satisfaction this way, for about 10 mold and die returns, all at the cost of $6 for a small FRB each time. It's not the end of the world if I get a defective part. I buy all kinds of brands of reloading equipment, and have gotten good value out of all of them, but then I avoid the worst products from each vendor and I treat customer service with respect and good humor. If your delicate sensibilities, sense of personal outrage and economics cannot find value in Lee products in this paradigm, again, stick with RCBS and Dillon.

[EDG]

It sounds like Peter needs to tell you the name of his boss so you can chat about Peter's poor performance.

Lee owes you a product that works.



Lee sent an email saying the die was sent to Peter, who I suppose is one of their technical people, he is the one who acted like "how DARE you call us on the phone after we had so laboriously HIDDEN the phone number on our webpage so numbskulls like you couldn't call us.." Very negative attitude, wouldn't tell me how big the die was supposed to be in the neck, wouldn't send out another die to replace it.

Lee needs to SERIOUSLY look at the image employees like this are sending to customers. Or maybe Dillon will just send him a salesman of the month award..

[HangFireW8]

All the ammo and reloading companies are too busy to give a flip, and have been too busy for years.

Get them to replace it and move on.

[DougGuy]

Yesterday Lee emailed and said my order was shipped. No indication if it was repaired or replaced, just a tracking number.

[jimkim]

Yesterday Lee emailed and said my order was shipped. No indication if it was repaired or replaced, just a tracking number.
Let us know what they did. Oh, and the company phone number is at the bottom of the screen. The only place I didn't see it, oddly enough was on most of the pages after I clicked contact us. It is at the bottom of the home page and every other product page, however.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

[DougGuy]

Well, I *FIXED* my Lee sizing die! I BOUGHT A HORNADY! Lee can go &%*(^ themselves!

If the die worked correctly, WHY WOULD I HAVE SENT IT BACK?

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/LeeReply7-2016-768_zpsvpuyamse.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/LeeReply7-2016-768_zpsvpuyamse.jpg.html)

*NOTE* the shoulder of the case is beginning to buckle. I have a GOOD mind to buy another Lee 308 full length sizer, saw them both in half with a cutoff wheel, and EXPOSE the rough and unfinished neck sizing portion of the die I sent them, compared to one that was polished out normally.

[Silverboolit]

It is too bad that LEE has lost a future customer(s) over a ten dollar die.

[Geezer in NH]

RCBS all the way. You get what you pay for. Customer service cannot be beat!!!!!!

[HangFireW8]

Your Lee Deluxe Die set contains a Collet die, which can easily produce cases like the one you've pictured if the collet is jammed closed... but you say it's the FL die. Here's a good discussion on that (http://www.opticstalk.com/got-my-lee-collet-die-today_topic33866.html), including pics of buckled cases.

What are the neck dimensions on the sized case they sent back?

Can you reproduce the undersized case, or the Lee sized case? They may have swapped out the die without admitting it.

[mjwcaster]

Peter rocks.
Just like my 380 cases, he found everything to be in spec and producing adequate case tension.
The three cases with seated bullets he sent back I could push deeper between 2 fingers.
Guess I just don't understand what adequate really is.
I am not the only one who has had issues with this.

Can anyone point to an issue Peter has actually resolved?

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[HangFireW8]

Here's a local discussion on fixing the collet die issue: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273247-Issue-with-Lee-Neck-sizing-Collet-die

[r1kk1]

Yeah in another thread I had an auto prime shellholder issue. Lee sent it back with another auto prime shellholder and says it fits this. I bought a RCBS bench priming tool and one very happy priming cases.

take care

r1kk1

[DougGuy]

I bought another Lee FL sizing die off ebay. I *know* there is something wrong with the die I sent back to Lee. My intent is to measure the neck portion of the incoming die and look to see if it is smooth and polished, and if it sizes cases like the first die SHOULD, but doesn't, I am thinking seriously about taking a cutoff wheel in a 4" grinder, and sawing open BOTH DIES, to expose the neck areas, and then send the s**t to somebody at Lee that is above their customer dis-service personnel, including both the letter I initially wrote, and the lame-a$$ reply I got back from Peter, and letting them see what kind of service they are subjecting their loyal customers to.

This is just plain BS. As soon as I emailed them a tracking number for the die I was sending back, they should have sent another die and let them cross in the mail and been done with it.

So far I have had this die 2 weeks, and had to go buy a Hornady die to use while I resolve this issue with Lee.

[tstowater]

There must be a reason why I buy Redding, Dillon and RCBS dies in that order depending on intended use. I try not to buy an anticipated problem just to save a few dollars.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[gwpercle]

CH4D dies are my favorite. I have never had a problem with them and solved more than one issue that "other" brands have created.
I'm not sure why some of Lee's dies work ok and other sets don't , but CH4D I can count on to get the job done.
Gary

[dragon813gt]

I try not to buy an anticipated problem just to save a few dollars.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I've had a total of one problem w/ Lee dies put of 21 sets. And I ran into the problem when using it to case form some brass, not their intended purpose. When problems occur is sucks for all parties involved. Last time I had to use RCBS customer service it took over three weeks to get the parts. No company is perfect. I will say that Lee seems to have handled this case in a very poor fashion.

[r1kk1]

CH4D dies are my favorite. I have never had a problem with them and solved more than one issue that "other" brands have created.
I'm not sure why some of Lee's dies work ok and other sets don't , but CH4D I can count on to get the job done.
Gary

i really like ch4d too. They cover more calibers than all other companies combined!

i remember when Dave just owned 4d die company back in the 70s.

Take care

r1kk1

[DougGuy]

Update:

I bought an older Lee .308 Full Length Sizing Die from ebay. Exactly as I suspected, the used die was .001" larger than the defective die I sent back in to Lee, and it was POLISHED!

The neck portion of the defective die measures ..2995" the neck portion of the replacement die I bought measures .3005" and it cycles brass with no more effort at the press than resizing .45 ACP!

The Hornady die by comparison is the smallest of them all, at .2985" in the neck. There are 3 expander balls between the 3 dies, and I used the biggest one at .3075" and it seems like it will do the trick. Will wait and see how much neck tension I wind up with and will change out dies and expanders as necessary to adjust neck tension.

[HangFireW8]

I've been using bushing dies for so long it's kind of shocking to see numbers under .30 for resizing 30 caliber necks.

For perspective, with .012" case walls, .001" spring back and no expander ball, that case mouth would be at (.2985 - .024 + .001) = 0.2755, or just ready to accept a .277" jacketed .270Win bullet with good neck tension. Necked back up to .3075 with the expander ball, that's .032" of expansion, with more than enough force to pull the case mouth off center.

DougGuy, if you really care about your cases, get a lapped-out or bushing sizing die. Case runout will thank you.