.38 Super v 9mm

[Pinsnscrews]

I have the opportunity to pick up a 1911 Colt in .38super. I was wondering what people thought of the Super when compared to the 9mm as there is also available a Rock Island Armory 1911 in 9mm/22tcm. I am aware the Frame on the RIA is milled for the 9mm and standard 1911 parts (.45acp) won't fit, whereas the .38Super is built on a traditional 1911 Frame.

The RIA is tempting just for the 22tcm aspect, but I have been wanting a .38super for a long time, and if I use it as an everyday carry, I would have the RIA in 9mm configuration.

Suggestions on Moulds to look at, or suggestions on loads to look at would be appreciated as well.

Also, I already have Dies for the 9mm, and Powders I have on hand are 800x, Lil'Gun, Longshot.

I am open to thoughts and critics.

Thank you in advance. (This is to replace the 10mm RIA 1911 I had to sacrifice to cover a couple of bills. Currently, my hands can not handle the recoil of 10mm loads, but can handle 9mm/.40sw)

[Walkingwolf]

Buy both...

[Pinsnscrews]

Yeah, if that was an option, I wouldn't be here asking ;) it would have already been done.

[Walkingwolf]

Yeah, if that was an option, I wouldn't be here asking ;) it would have already been done.

Well personally I would go with the 38 super, I have never talked to anybody having problems with 38 super 1911's. OTH everybody that has told me of their woes it has been a 9mm. Other than the internet I just have not heard of many problems with 45 acp, or 38 super.

[Beef15]

38Super brass is far more expensive and almost unheard of to scrounge. 9mm brass is practically everywhere.
I'd go 9mm for plinking/HD/SD, and something else if PF mattered for matches.
But a Colt will always be a Colt and hold value better if that's factor.

Lee's 356120TC is an affordable and well performing 9mm mold. No experience with your powders.

[ReloaderFred]

The .38 Super is a great round. Mine have proven to be very accurate, too. It would be my recommendation over the 9mm/.22 TCM.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Pinsnscrews]

A local vendor has instock fired .38super brass $14 per 100 rounds.

[Kraschenbirn]

If the .38 Super is a Colt (mfg. in Hartford) or a Springfield Armory, I'd grab it in a heartbeat and never look back. Admittedly, the Super is pretty much a handloader's cartridge these days but, in terms of ballistics, it's definitely superior to the 9x19 and a 'real' 1911 frame provides plenty of potential for upgrade...if you're so inclined. Recently, a shooting buddy picked up a LNIB Springfield Armory that I wish I'd seen before he glommed onto it.:sad:

Bill

[hp246]

You don't say what you intend to use it for. If this is gonna be a plinker putting a lot of rounds down range, I'd go with the 9mm. If this is gonna be a carry gun, and occasional range time, I'd go with the .38 super.

[Pinsnscrews]

hp246 it will be a handload only target with the occasional carry. I just don't leave the house much anymore with my back issues.

[crowbuster]

9's are a dime a dozen. Love the 38 super. The +p will surprise you. Very nice

[Ithaca Gunner]

Once you have the Super, all you need is a 9mm barrel and you'll have both.

[robertbank]

Once you have the Super, all you need is a 9mm barrel and you'll have both.

This. My bet is you will shoot the 9MM far more than you will the Super. I would grab the gun after checking it out thoroughly. It may have been a high volume USPSA gun shooting major loads. It would matter to me, others maybe not so much.

Take Care

Bob

[Ithaca Gunner]

Just thought of something, you can get 9mm shooti'n ammo by the case now for about the same price a case of .22 ammo would cost.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Here's an interesting article on loading the .38 Super.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...-the-38-super/ (http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloading/super-powders-for-the-38-super/)

I have a stainless frame cut for a Para/Clark ramped barrel I haven't gotten around to yet, plan on doing a 10mm on it, but a Super .38/9x23/9x19 still isn't out of the question.

I had an old Colt Super .38 in the 80's and simply added a 9mm barrel to it. The Super head spaced on the rim as did Colt barrels through the 90's I believe and wasn't very accurate. The newer barrels head space on the mouth of the case and are noted for fine accuracy. A properly head spaced barrel, or the same in a ramped barrel, and good +P brass should put the Super in the realm of a 4" .357 Magnum revolver. (Note I said good +P brass or a ramped barrel in conjunction with careful hand loading, read the article carefully)

[bruce drake]

You can't convert the double stack 9mm/22TCM RIA frame up to 38 Super but you can add a 9mm barrel to the RIA 38 Super 1911. I own a single stack 9mm RIA Govt Model that I've also fitted a 38 Super barrel to the slide as well. for day to day range use, I use it in it's 9mm Luger setup. When I clean it up after the trips to the range I use the 38 Super setup (different mag, and barrel bushing but same 14lb recoil spring)for personal defense with 124gr hollowpoints.

[lotech]

While I'm not really a fan of either cartridge, I've had two Colt .38 Super pistols and many more 9mms; shot cast in all of them. Velocity/performance difference is probably less than what many folks imagine. The biggest distinction is the .38 Super has mystique.The 9mm doesn't.

[scattershot]

RIA makes a nice pistol, to be sure, I've had three of them. For my money, the Colt will always be a Colt, and tend to appreciate in value. The ammunition will sort itself out. Advantage: Colt.

[Ithaca Gunner]

While I'm not really a fan of either cartridge, I've had two Colt .38 Super pistols and many more 9mms; shot cast in all of them. Velocity/performance difference is probably less than what many folks imagine. The biggest distinction is the .38 Super has mystique.The 9mm doesn't.

You are correct, most factory ammunition has been loaded down at least 100fps for the Super over the years narrowing the gap between it and the 9x19mm. Now figure in the Super velocities are usually taken from a 5" barrel and the 9mm from a 4" barrel, the gap narrows even more. As for factory ammo, only a few "boutique" companies load the Super near it's potential. I would make a few simple and cheap modifications to a Super 1911 for this hotter ammo, Replace the beveled bottom firing pin stop, (army's idea, 1913 I believe) with a square one, (Browning's original design) replace the factory main spring with a 23lb spring, and the firing pin spring with heavy duty spring, you can work with the recoil spring and maybe go up a lb or two, but not much more.

The 9mm wasn't a popular chambering in the U.S. prior to the end of WWII, police departments wanted a cartridge to better penetrate automobile bodies than the .38spl. or .45ACP and the Super .38 was born in 1929 with a 130gr. FMJ bullet at around 1,300fps. to answer the needs of police.

[charlie b]

If it were me I'd get the Colt in .38 super, but, plan on buying something like a Barsto barrel that headspaces on the case mouth (unless the Colt is a later one that does this). I was always partial to the .38 Super, but, I tend to favor wierd cartridges, like the .357 Sig and 10mm. I am also a Colt snob :)

The go out and buy a 9mm barrel for it. Plink with the 9mm and shoot the .38 Super when you want the added velocity. Best of both.

[Walkingwolf]

I am not positive but I believe that current colt barrels headspace on the case mouth. Should be able to see looking down the barrel. Even my 38 specials will headspace on the case mouth if they had no rim. Just take a 357 case that has not been roll crimped and it will stop leaving the exact difference between a seated 38 special, a 357 uncrimped case. I once owned a 38 super and it was very accurate, sorry I traded it. My revolvers that headspace on the rim are very accurate especially my S&W model 25.

38 super does allow for roll crimping on hot loads. I never found I needed a roll crimp.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Walking wolf, I do believe all Supers now head space on the mouth. It took Colt a while to admit this though and was probably the last to do it, late 1990's, early 2000's if I'm not mistaken.

[dverna]

A 9mm +P is pretty close to a .38 Super in factory loadings. And there are a lot more loadings for the 9mm. Plus brass is cheap and easy to get.

[RJM52]

Colt barrels were headpsaced on the case rim from 1929 to 1990+-. The first Colt manufactured 1911 with a headspaced on the case mouth barrel was the SUPER ELITE in 1986. It was a distributor exclusive for AccuSport Corp. who demanded that the chamber be cut that way.

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=182030

Colt probably changed only because they were being made to look bad from new 1911 manufacturers like Springfield Armory, Detonics, AMT and others who all headspaced their Supers on the case mouth from day one and their guns all badly outshot Colts... That and in the early 1980s the .38 Super was "discovered" by the IPSC crowd all of whom were replacing their barrels with BarSto because the Colts shot so bad...

The new Colt Supers are excellent shooters however.

If it were me starting all over again, I would buy a target sighted 1911 like a Kimber Stainless Target II or SA Rangemaster and have a second barrel fitted along with a .22 Conversion Unit... Then you have a powerful accurate round for maximum results when carrying, a cheap practice round and a .22 for plinking and small game...

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%2038%20Super%20Ammo%20Tests.htm

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

http://www.38super.net/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Trail+gun+perfection%3a+Kimber%27s+.38+super+stain less+target+II.-a0285993666


Bob

[Forrest r]

If it were me starting all over again, I would buy a target sighted 1911 like a Kimber Stainless Target II or SA Rangemaster and have a second barrel fitted along with a .22 Conversion Unit... Then you have a powerful accurate round for maximum results when carrying, a cheap practice round and a .22 for plinking and small game...
Bob

+1^^^^^

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/ropair_zpsjjjmkgtp.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/ropair_zpsjjjmkgtp.jpg.html)

The Marvel conversion kits are extremely accurate and make an excellent addition to any 1911.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/1911marvel.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/1911marvel.jpg.html)

I've owned/shot allot of 1911's in 38super over the decades. We'd buy 38 supers and have 9mm bbl's fitted to them. If you are going to:
Shoot light bullets, either caliber will work.
Target/plinking loads, either caliber will work.

The only place the 38super has any real advantage over the 9mm is with 158gr/160gr bullets. If your not going to shoot full house loads with 160gr bullets in the 38super, I'd get a 9mm 1911 and not look back.

9mm brass is everywhere/free
9mm is an extremely accurate caliber in the 1911

A 1100fps+ 125gr hp plinking load for the 9mm 1911

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/ro9mm50ft_zpslprjmumk.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/ro9mm50ft_zpslprjmumk.jpg.html)

[Petrol & Powder]

A 9mm +P is pretty close to a .38 Super in factory loadings. And there are a lot more loadings for the 9mm. Plus brass is cheap and easy to get.

And 9mm +P+ is even closer.

The 38 Super brass is not common and is expensive.

The 38 Super is a fine cartridge and can out perform the run of the mill 9mm luger but the difference becomes thinner when you push the 9mm to its limits. If I was trying to make a power factor the 38 Super or 9 x 23 would be my choice but for general fun shooting, the 9mm is going to be far less expensive.

[Walkingwolf]

One of the things about 38 super, and 9X23 is I hardly ever hear of FTF, or FTE problems. Anytime I have heard a gun owner complain it has always been a 9mm, the shorter tapered cartridge has to have a perfect magazine to be reliable. The 38 super is both longer, and a straighter case.

I have a 9mm Largo, and I would not trade it for 9mm, or use a 9mm barrel. I load all my own ammo so any savings on ammo are moot to me. Also 9mm operates at considerably higher pressure to achieve the same velocity.

[dverna]

WW

Good 9mm ammo is very reliable. I took a defensive handgun course and fired 600 rounds without a FTF or FTE using a Lone Wolf barrel in a Glock. High pressures are if no concern. Brass life for a 9mm is irrelevant as cases are $25/1000 delivered to your door if you cannot get them for free at the range.

I do not load to +P pressures for practice ammo but use +P for defensive loads. Nothing wrong with the .38 Super but IMHO it is not a significant improvement over a 9mm. Plus the 9mm is available in high capacity pistols - just seems like a better option for most people.

[robertbank]

WW

Good 9mm ammo is very reliable. I took a defensive handgun course and fired 600 rounds without a FTF or FTE using a Lone Wolf barrel in a Glock. High pressures are if no concern. Brass life for a 9mm is irrelevant as cases are $25/1000 delivered to your door if you cannot get them for free at the range.

I do not load to +P pressures for practice ammo but use +P for defensive loads. Nothing wrong with the .38 Super but IMHO it is not a significant improvement over a 9mm. Plus the 9mm is available in high capacity pistols - just seems like a better option for most people.

This, plus 9MM is available everywhere on virtually every continent except Antarctica. Too, it has proven itself effective longer than any other pistol cartridge made today.

Take Care

Bob

[Ithaca Gunner]

With all the positive points for the 9x19mm cartridge, (and there a lot!) on a 1911 platform though, I'd build a Super with a 9mm barrel and mags as a "just in case" thing. I don't dislike the 9mm, I just like the Super.

[9.3X62AL]

I have very little hands-on time with the 38 Super, less than 100 rounds in my lifetime. 9mm I have fired at least 100,000 of. There is my bias, out front.

I have never been attracted to the 38 Super, though I reload and enjoy a number of calibers far less common than the "trienta-ocho esupero". It just never offered enough-better performance than the 9mm does to prompt its addition. Due to load selection by my agency, I don't carry the 9mm socially any more, it's 357 Mag/40 S&W/45 ACP for me.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I'm just the opposite, I've got more trigger time with the Super, but only because I prefer the 1911 platform over any other self loading pistol. That said, I'll state this, the Super is a better cartridge for hand-loading, but to realize the true potential of the round, it really should be in a ramped barrel where +P+ loads bring it into the .357Magnum realm. I've never hand-loaded for the 9x19mm simply because ammo is so cheap! Really, I recently saw 9x19mm on sale somewhere for right around $300.00 a 1,000! At that price...I ain't reloadi'n it!

Now for real world effectiveness. With todays hollow point ammunition I see little difference in flesh and bone ballistics. The Super may open up a hollow point .007" larger than a 9x19mm, but does it matter? I doubt it. In a hospital emergency room, they say there's little difference in a .45 hollow point wound and a 9mm, so I doubt there's much between a Super and a 9mm. The Super may have an advantage in hard target penetration, (body armor, automobile body) over the 9mm or .45ACP, but there's always the 10mm, .41Magnum, .44Magnum and the list goes on, all the way to .50BMG that will defeat hard targets even better.


38 Super vs 9mmInevitably there is a comparison between the 38 Super and the 9mm Luger. The Super has a clear advantage, though it is not a huge advantage. The Super propels a 130 grain bullet about 25 fps faster than the 9mm propels a 115 grain bullet. That translates into a roughly 60 ft. lbs. M.E. advantage (about 15%) for the 38 Super. Whether that difference is meaningful or not is a matter of opinion, with 38 Super lovers voting Yes, and 9mm lovers voting No. Like many things in life, we view things in a light that favors our preference. Still, the math places the 38 Super ahead of the 9mm.
9mm +P loads do approach the Super’s power level. But the 9mm +P is loaded to higher pressures than the 38 Super. The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the standard 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi. The 9mm Luger +P maximum is 38,500 psi. The 38 Super SAAMI maximum average pressure is 36,500. Some of you readers are protesting because today’s 38 Super has the designation of 38 Super +P. That’s right. But remember that the +P name designation was added in 1974 solely to distinguish it from the old 38 Automatic, not because the Super was suddenly loaded to higher pressures in 1974. It was a “bureaucratic” name change only, not an actual change in pressure. So, in fact, the 38 Super +P is still the standard pressure 38 Super just as it was when created back in 1929. If the 38 Super was loaded to an increased (real) +P pressure designation it would be much higher than the 9mm +P. For example, the +P designation added 3,500 psi onto the standard 9mm SAAMI maximum. Doing the same to the 38 Super would result in a SAAMI maximum average pressure of 40,000 psi. That would boost velocity and power significantly, well beyond the 9mm +P, and even beyond the 9mm +P+.
The ballistics of 9mm +P+ ammunition are in line with, and slightly exceed, the ballistics of the standard factory 38 Super (Table 3). Winchester’s (http://www.winchester.com/) 127 grain Ranger +P+ produces 441 ft. lbs. M.E. Remington’s (http://www.remington.com/) 115 JHP +P+ produces 438 ft. lbs. M.E. Remember that the 38 Super’s standard 130 grain FMJ produces 426 ft. lbs. M.E. Higher pressure loads (real +P or +P+ pressures) in the Super would easily surpass 500 ft. lbs. M.E. and would be close to the 9X23 Winchester. By the way, the 9X23 can be loaded to at least 46,000 psi (Winchester’s 15th Edition Reloader’s Manual) which explains why it has such impressive performance and makes it one of the highest pressure handgun cartridges around.
Fortunately there is an example of ammo loaded by the same company to maximize the potential of both of these cartridges. CORBON (http://www.corbon.com/) loads high performance ammo for the 38 Super and the 9mm Luger. When comparing these loads the 38 Super still has a lead over the 9mm. CORBON’s 9mm +P loads peak at 482 ft. lbs. M.E. But their loads for the 38 Super reaches nearly 520 ft. lbs. M.E.
However, as COL. (Dr.) Tom Haggarty pointed out, the velocity figures for these cartridges are from different length barrels. The loads at CORBON (and most other manufacturers) show that the 9mm is clocked from a 4 inch barrel, and the 38 Super from a 5 inch barrel. A longer test barrel for the 9mm would increase the velocity. The usual rule of thumb is that an additional inch of barrel length adds roughly 50 fps (depending on a variety of factors). This would push the CORBON 9mm +P velocity for a given bullet weight to within 25 fps of the equivalent 38 Super round, making the difference between them very small.
One critical feature will always give the edge to the 38 Super. The 38 Super’s longer case, and therefore greater case volume, means higher velocity for a given bullet weight when both cases are loaded to the same pressures.

Table 3: 38 Super vs 9mm Luger



Cartridge


Manufacturer


Bullet Weight*


Published Velocity†


Muzzle Energy††




9mm Luger


Generic


115 FMJ


1190


362




9mm Luger +P


Remington


115 JHP


1250


399




9mm Luger +P+


Remington


115 JHP


1310


438




9mm Luger +P+


Winchester


127 JHP


1250


441




9mm Luger +P


Cor-Bon


100 Pow'Rball


1475


482




9mm Luger +P


Cor-Bon


115 DPX HP


1275


415




9mm Luger +P


Cor-Bon


115 JHP


1350


466




9mm Luger +P


Cor-Bon


125 JHP


1250


434





















38 Super+P


Generic


130 FMJ


1215


426




38 Super+P


Cor-Bon


100 Pow'Rball


1525


516




38 Super+P


Cor-Bon


115 JHP


1425


519




38 Super+P


Cor-Bon


125 JHP


1325


487




38 Super+P


Cor-Bon


125 DPX HP


1350


506





















9X23 Winchester


Winchester


125 STHP


1450


583





DPX HP = all copper Barnes X Bullet. FMJ = Full Metal Jacket. JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point. STHP = Silver Tip Hollow Point. * Weight in grains. † Velocity in feet per second. Velocity is usually measured from a 4 inch barrel for 9mm Luger, and 5 inch barrel for 38 Super. †† Muzzle Energy in Foot Pounds and calculated as: Bullet Weight times Velocity times Velocity divided by 450436.



Bottom line, if I wanted a mid size cartridge on a 1911 platform to hand load and play with I'd go with the Super and do it with a ramped barrel to milk out every last bit of performance from it. Other than that, I'd probably go with the 9mm and take advantage of ammo cost and availability.

[slughammer]

hp246 it will be a handload only target with the occasional carry. I just don't leave the house much anymore with my back issues.

If your back issues cause problems picking up brass I'd get a 9mm and plan on letting the brass lay. (or maybe just one more revolver!)

[Pinsnscrews]

Moot point at this time, someone else bought it out from under me before I could get to the store to pick either of them up. Lot of good information and I appreciate everyone who stepped forward.

[9.3X62AL]

Lotta food for thought throughout this thread. One idea that occurred to me.......for a time I ran both 308 Winchester and 30-06 bolt rifles, and a few 308 gas guns as well. I opted out of the 308 about 15 years ago, because of the increased performance possible with the 30-06 with heavier-weight bullets in the bolters. The -'06's longer neck is a small "plus" for castings as well.

This diametrically opposed to my preferences in 35 caliber self-loaders, though (9mm vs. 38 Super). Consistency is indeed the last refuge of the unimaginative.

[cpaspr]

I've never hand-loaded for the 9x19mm simply because ammo is so cheap! Really, I recently saw 9x19mm on sale somewhere for right around $300.00 a 1,000! At that price...I ain't reloadi'n it!


Not counting the value of my time nor electricity, I can reload 1000 rounds of 9mm for less than $70. That's with a 120gr cast bullet, figuring lead at $1/lb, Bullseye powder at $25/lb and primers at $35/thousand. That's really a replacement cost value. My lead was actually free, and I got my powder and primers for a bit less. I'm actually loading for $46.60/thousand. I'll stick to reloading. Since I already have everything and don't have to buy more components, from my wife's perspective, I reload for free! :bigsmyl2:

[charlie b]

Lotta food for thought throughout this thread. One idea that occurred to me.......for a time I ran both 308 Winchester and 30-06 bolt rifles, and a few 308 gas guns as well. I opted out of the 308 about 15 years ago, because of the increased performance possible with the 30-06 with heavier-weight bullets in the bolters. The -'06's longer neck is a small "plus" for castings as well.

This diametrically opposed to my preferences in 35 caliber self-loaders, though (9mm vs. 38 Super). Consistency is indeed the last refuge of the unimaginative.

Funny cause I am about to put a .308 barrel on my Garand because I don't deviate much from the factory load, so, .308 and the availability of NATO ammo is a bonus for me.

If it was just logistics and not the platform I'd pick a 9mm over .38 super. And it would not be a 1911 in 9mm. If I am using a 1911 it is in .45ACP, .38 super or 10mm. If I get a 9mm it will be in a gun designed around the shorter cartridge. I'd probably opt for a High Power or one of the newer guns with high cap mags.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Not counting the value of my time nor electricity, I can reload 1000 rounds of 9mm for less than $70. That's with a 120gr cast bullet, figuring lead at $1/lb, Bullseye powder at $25/lb and primers at $35/thousand. That's really a replacement cost value. My lead was actually free, and I got my powder and primers for a bit less. I'm actually loading for $46.60/thousand. I'll stick to reloading. Since I already have everything and don't have to buy more components, from my wife's perspective, I reload for free! :bigsmyl2:

I do like your wife's perspective!

[9.3X62AL]

Charlie B--

The 1911-series and the Beretta 92-series pistols are kinda big for the 9mm caliber, for certain.

But the two most accurate 9mm pistols I have ever fired were one each of these two platforms--and on the same day. One was a stock-looking but much-refined 92FS--it literally placed factory W-W 147 grain JHPs one on top of the other at 25 yards. The 20-round composite target had a ragged cavity just over 2" across centered on the X-ring of an NRA pistol bull. I didn't think a 9mm could do such things.

Soon thereafter, I got the chance to run a box-stock and near-new Springfield Loaded 1911A1 in 9mm. Same ammo--20 rounds at 25 yards made a ragged 2-1/4" cavern, with one called flyer out about an inch left. This pistol left a lasting impression upon me, and only the scarcity of replacement OEM magazines has kept me from snagging one of my own.

[robertbank]

Al the Wilson 9MM 10rd mags are excellent. Ran well in my STI Trojan and Norinco NP-29 (a 1911). I'm not sure I would go with Springfield necessarily, but if that is what floats your boat.

My CZ 75 Shadowline to date has been my most accurate 9MM, although the Mke 25 Sig 226 plunks the bullets where the sights are pointing, which sometimes reflects where I am aiming.:-o

Take Care

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

I get by with my P-226 x 9mm currently. There was a move afoot to approve 1911A1s for general carry by my old shop, but as of now only the SWAT guys and current range staff have the go-ahead. I am not going to spend close to $1000 for a pistol I can't carry "on paper" at this point of my life. I have really thinned the herd over the past 4-5 years.

[charlie b]

Charlie B--

The 1911-series and the Beretta 92-series pistols are kinda big for the 9mm caliber, for certain.

But the two most accurate 9mm pistols I have ever fired were one each of these two platforms--and on the same day. One was a stock-looking but much-refined 92FS--it literally placed factory W-W 147 grain JHPs one on top of the other at 25 yards. The 20-round composite target had a ragged cavity just over 2" across centered on the X-ring of an NRA pistol bull. I didn't think a 9mm could do such things.

Soon thereafter, I got the chance to run a box-stock and near-new Springfield Loaded 1911A1 in 9mm. Same ammo--20 rounds at 25 yards made a ragged 2-1/4" cavern, with one called flyer out about an inch left. This pistol left a lasting impression upon me, and only the scarcity of replacement OEM magazines has kept me from snagging one of my own.

Oh, I have no doubt that they can be VERY accurate with 9mm. It is just if I am going to carry a 1911 with it's single stack mag it will have a cartridge that fills the space/length. If I want a 9mm it will be in a grip size appropriate to the cartridge.

[robertbank]

Oh, I have no doubt that they can be VERY accurate with 9mm. It is just if I am going to carry a 1911 with it's single stack mag it will have a cartridge that fills the space/length. If I want a 9mm it will be in a grip size appropriate to the cartridge.

I have several 9MM double stacks and the actual grip circumference is not noticeably longer or shorter than the 1911 in 9MM.

My old STI Trojan shot the 9MM as accurately as do my 1911's in 45acp and just as reliable. From my experience there really was no practical difference either between cartridges and/or platforms. Capacity of course is not an issue up here as we live with a 10 round limit.

Take Care

Bob

[charlie b]

Correct. A double stack in 9mm is about the same as a single stack 1911. QED