1:1 ww-pure

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I made a batch of half ww half pure, with a small amount of tin from pipe joints, no way to say how much tin is in there. I will be using this in my 45-70 (430grfp over 31.8gr imr 4198) est. at 1400, and hopefully in the future in a sbh 7.5 at 1200+. my question is do I need to add anything or heat treat it? it seems to expand well when air dried slowly. just wanted you guys opinion. thanks, travis

[John Boy]

it seems to expand well when air dried slowly. So nothing else has to be done

[10 ga]

I use your typical 50-50+2% = COWW-soft+tin for my hunting alloy. works great for me. 10

[Kraschenbirn]

You could probably back off a bit on the COWW. I load 2 parts range scrap (9-10 Bhn) to 1 part COWW (+a bit of tin) in my smokeless .45-70s without any issues. Boolits are air-cooled, pan-lubed with Emmert's, and loaded 'as cast' to duplicate BP velocities in an RB and a Trapdoor.

Bill

[leebuilder]

1 to 1 is what i use for 6.5x55 accuacy is a bit better than water quenched COWW. Makes the nicest boolits.
be well

[zubrato]

How hard can 1:1 be pushed? I'm going to give it a shot water dropped with 1-2% tin in 9mm and 38 but I was pretty solidly under the impression rifle velocities would do better with straight ww water dropped. I get excellent results this way with 8x57

[runfiverun]

depends on the fitment of the boolit and the shape of the boolit.
in the 308 the mold I designed does 2400 easily with almost no tin in the alloy and ww's cut with soft lead.
I cut the ww's with soft lead to adjust the diameters to fit the barrel with minimal scuffing in the size die.

[Michael J. Spangler]

I use pretty much the same blend.
I mix up some alloy to equate to what we hope COWW to be. Then I add another 1% or so of tin.
I cut that 50/50 with some pretty pure stuff.
I use hi-Tek coating on the bullets.
44 mag 240 with 20 grains of 2400
357 mag 160 with 14 grains of 2400
45/70 405 with 32 grains of h4198. All the bores are shiny.
I've shot the same alloy with carnuba red lube in the 45/70 with much hotter loads and no leading at all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zubrato]

depends on the fitment of the boolit and the shape of the boolit.
in the 308 the mold I designed does 2400 easily with almost no tin in the alloy and ww's cut with soft lead.
I cut the ww's with soft lead to adjust the diameters to fit the barrel with minimal scuffing in the size die.

Do you mean cast 308 at 2400 fps, accurately or without leading using cut ww?

If I understand correctly from another thread this would more closely resemble a "pre slumped" bore rider maybe loverin type, rather than a steep spire point?

Thank you for the informative posts. It's interesting seeing how well softer cast bullets perform in terms of accuracy where we generally apply rule of thumb hardness.

Things were so much easier when I water dropped wheelweights for everything.
:D

[runfiverun]

this is what your 308's throat looks like.
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf
this is what the boolit looks like.
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-165A-D.png

why do you think number-2 looks like it does?
why is my alloy adjusted?
why do I get away with a lower antimony very low tin alloy.
that one i'll answer.
I get the boolit into the barrel straight and then accelerate it. [with a much too slow powder]
why did I stop at @ 2400?
I hit an accuracy node that I figured there was no way I was gonna better at any speed.
but I still have room to move ahead.
unfortunately I'm pretty sure the next node will be with a slightly quicker powder and a much higher velocity.

[DougGuy]

1:1 is what is also called 50/50. My all time favorite alloy for Ruger revolvers is 50/50+2% so you are real close with your mix OP.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

cool!great feedback, good news for me too, thanks. Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

micheal j spangler do you have a chronograph to tell me what fps you are getting out of your 45-70, I am shooting a 430gr boolit with 31.2gr imr 4198, and I would like o know about what I am doing. I am estimating 1350-1400.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

OK, Kidd,

I repeatedly see posts saying that 1 - 2% of tin being added to peoples alloys.

WHY? Is it because folk have read for years that this is needed for good bullets? If so, there needs to be a change in reading material.

I have tried the addition of tin and never found that it did anything but take money out of my pocket.

My standard allow is and has been for years, just plain old clip on Wheel Weights which according to the Lyman cast bullet book has a nominal .5% tin.

Millions upon millions of such bullets have been cast and fired successfully without the addition of tin.

My standard alloy for my 45/70 with a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast is a 50/50 - WW/lead mix with an even smaller percentage of tin.

This alloy would have an even SMALLER percentage of tin then the .5% of straight WW.

Casts great and shoots just fine.

As part of my standard operating procedure, I water quench almost all of my cast bullets, including those for the 45/70.

I have tested the 465gr WFN to velocities exceeding 1900fps. No issues.

First tried a 355gr WFN for hunting with the 45/70 and tested to just over 2500fps and hunted with 2300fps loads. HUGE wound channel, bad idea!!!! TOO MUCH VELOCITY!!!

For those bullets, I did add a small percentage of tin and found as said above it did nothing but take money out of my pocket.

The 50/50 - 465gr WFN fired at 1650fps has proven to be nothing short of awesome on deer and elk.

I have molds from, presently, 5 different manufactures and all cast great bullets without the addition of costly tin!

For the most part, needing to add tin to an alloy to cast good bullets is nothing more then an "old wives" tale.

Will be back in the field for an early cow elk hunt in less then two weeks, and packing the 45/70 with the 465gr WFN cast, but hope to later on take a deer with my RUGER 77/44 shooting a 275gr WFN cast bullet - velocity about 1700fps - cast from just plain old clip on Wheel Weights.

The bullets shown below are all cast with just plain WW with the exception of the 465gr which is cast of the 50/50 alloy. The after bullet in the second image was found in a large cow elk taken with a quartering shot. That bullet penetrated over 2' after taking out the BIG front leg bone where it lost most or all of it's nose (137.1gr) bringing it down to 327.5gr

Save your tin money for more brass, powder and primers.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

172745172746

[Hardcast416taylor]

50/50 in everthing from .32 acp up thru my .416 Taylor and .45/70 and about everything in between. Only add a taste of tin if the mold being used is finicky about filling out. I don`t H2O quench anymore, didn`t see a need. Use a good quality lube and be sure of large enough dia. for your barrel.Robert

[Oklahoma Rebel]

personally I throw some tin in mainly for plasticity, it help hold the boolit together under stress, plus the bonus of it helping to make my grease grooves fill out in the mould, currently I am using the same boolit that you have on the right, ifg it is a 45-70 430gr.noe, mine is a plain base though, can I ask, what kind of lube do you have on that boolit in the picture I was referring to?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Kidd,

That is Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) soft blue on the 465gr WFN 45/70 bullet.

After that photograph was taken I switched lube in the 45/70 and currently use White Label Lube, their "BAC" type.

I think it gives a bit better groups.

Have a bunch of both, so I am using the LBT in handguns and for lubing bullets for my RUGER 77/44.

That bullet is from an Accurate Mold made for the .444. 275gr and it seems to be doing OK in the .44 rifle.

I believe that if/when I run out of the LBT, I'll just buy from the White Label Lube folk.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[zubrato]

I add about 1% or less tin, watching the way the melt behaves when I stir it. Tried 2% and it was way too much.
The tin helps keep hard bullets together, and add a tiny amount of hardness to the alloy.
Improves mold fill out especially with pure lead wadcutters, and molds finicky about temp.

Bought a lifetime supply (20lbs) at a good will/Salvation Army for 10$ or so, don't care if I use some for really pretty bullets that cast well.
I used to cast without tin for years, too. I now see less reject bullets, especially when the mold gets too hot and the bullet features/sharp edges shrink away from the mold.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

crusty, thanks for thee info, and zubrato, I also see less rejects when using tin, it really helps with the ridges between lube grooves, I used to get some that were totally rounded, but now I hardly see those, except the first couple pours (which I just dump back in the pot, don't even bother to check them) have a good day y'all

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Kidd,

Makes me wonder if your casting a bit on the cool side.

I like to run 650 - 700degrees pouring from an open pot with a Rowell bottom pour ladle.

CDOC

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, next time I fire up the pot I will keep a closer eye on the temp. thanks, also do you have an estimated fps for my load, 430gr wfn 31.2gr imr 4198, 22inch barrel. sorry , I know it is probably a pain in the ... of a question but I have no chrono

[Oklahoma Rebel]

im guessing 1300-1400

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

No "pain" here Kidd!

This is what many of us are on the forums for, sharing what we think we know about what we think we know. :cbpour:

Going by my Lyman cast bullet book, they list a 450gr ahead of 31gr. of IMR 4898 at 1301fps from a 24" barrel.

This is info listed under the "Trapdoor" info. That is a top load for the trapdoor, but should be a piece of cake for a Marlin.

The Marlin info doesn't list anything heavier then the 405gr, while the RUGER #1 info does list a 450gr and IMR 4198 at 44gr. max for 1858fps. Again with a 24" barrel

CDOC

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yeah I like to keep my loads in the max trapdoor area , no reason to wear out my gun and nothing around here needs any more killin than that! the 450gr trapdoor load, is were I got my guess of 1350-1450. sound like that's close enough for government work eh? Travis

[TXGunNut]

I use 50-50 for most hunting loads, for the faster loads I HT the boolits if it benefits accuracy. I usually add tin to get better fill-out, generally 1% or less.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Kidd,

That should get er done, especially if your using a bullet with a large meplat/Wide Flat Nose.

When I first starter loading for the 45/70, it was after many years of dealing with and load for typical high velocity center fires.

I found my first hunting load with a WFN 355gr bullet at 2300fps to be DEVISTATING!!!!!!!

I tested that bullet to a bit over 2500fps.

I find the 465gr WFN at 1650fps to be everything the 355 wasn't. Great put down with no excess damage.

The 1650fps is the sweet spot for my bullet/load/rifle. I have tested higher but keep coming back to the sweet spot.

If the sweet spots was at a bit lower velocity, the critters would be just as dead with the Great WFN bullets.

CDOC

[white eagle]

what is the cost of 1-2% tin in your alloy
I can't believe it's a deal breaker
might be though if you are making thousands of pounds
of alloy

[Michael J. Spangler]

micheal j spangler do you have a chronograph to tell me what fps you are getting out of your 45-70, I am shooting a 430gr boolit with 31.2gr imr 4198, and I would like o know about what I am doing. I am estimating 1350-1400.


I'm using H4198 so it might not be close to what you're doing. I don't have a chrono but the book listed about 1500 FPS out of a 24" If i remember correctly.
I'm shooting it out of a 34" sharps most of the time.
I believe IMR4198 gives a little better velocity. I would say you're right in the 1500 or so FPS depending on barrel.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

hey I PM'ed you a minute ago, I hadn't seen that message yet, sorry for the redundancy

[dubber123]

im guessing 1300-1400

Kidd, I am using H-4198 instead of your IMR, but they are very close. 30.0 grains with a 415 cast ran 1,307 Fps from a 25" barrel recently. Yours is a 22.5" barrel I believe, but your charge weight is higher. I believe your guesstimate is right in the ballpark.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

cool, thanks for the extra brain! I went back and checked the lee book and ended with the same conclusion still. have a good day , Travis