Sizing .45 ACP to .451?

[prickett]

I'm heard someone say he sized his .45's to .451 and gets good accuracy. I normally do .452" and am happy with it. But, I'm wanting to get a bullet feeder for my press and think that .451's would function better (I use coated bullets so I don't have to worry about lube gumming things up).

What are your experiences with sizing to .451? Do you get any leading or less accuracy?

I'm loading for an XD Tactical and a M&P.

[bangerjim]

My 1911 45ACP only shoots 451's. I PC everything and size to 451 to get them to chamber/cycle and to prevent them from bulging out my brass cases.

Accuracy? Well......at 452, most will not cycle, so yes, 451's do shoot accurately!!!!!!!!

My method also includes using a Lee Factory Crimp Die on them to get excellent chambering. Not a single no chamber/cycle since I started doing all 45ACP's that way.

No leading at all.

Your mileage may vary.......but it works great for me!

banger

[beagle]

I also size to .451 in a Colt Combat Target Model and a Ruger .45 convertible. Accuracy is as good as I can shoot and no leading./beagle

[Mk42gunner]

I've never powder coated a boolit; but I have shot a lot of both .451" and .452" cast lead projectiles, mostly out of 1911's with a few others thrown in. I never really saw any great difference in accuracy or reliability, but I wasn't trying to shoot the x-ring out of a bullseye target either.

If you are set up for .452" now, and things work well, all you would be out to try .451" is a sizer die.

Robert

[sghart3578]

I experimented with .451" and .452" bullets in my 1911 and my S&W 1917. I couldn't tell the difference. But I am not a great pistol shot either.

Both chambered and passed the plunk test in my 1911. I think the muzzle velocity is low enough that it didn't make a difference for me.


Steve in N CA

[DougGuy]

Whatever fits best in the throat will be the most accurate. They don't say fitment is KING for nothing. It really doesn't matter about bore/groove diameter, as long as the throat is slightly larger, fit to the throat.

When you have no throat, boolits have to be smaller so they will even fit in the chamber, this makes them smaller than the groove diameter which will never be as accurate as a boolit that fits and seals snugly in the bore. This is accomplished easiest, with a boolit slightly larger than groove diameter, and a throat large enough that the boolit will seat into the throat. <<This is the important part, the throat will act like a machined guide that centers the whole cartridge in the chamber and centers the boolit in the bore. This arrangement will ALWAYS work better than a boolit that is deep seated to get it to plunk, because the throat will not accept the shoulder of the boolit.

For an older military spec 1911 barrel, many of these will plunk and shoot a .453" with no throat work, so again, fit the boolit to the throat for best accuracy. Most modern barrels are .451" ~ .452"

[runfiverun]

I have never tried .451 in any of my 45's.
I'm not sure I even have a 451 size die.

[Char-Gar]

I started with a .452 sizing die and used it for decades in a variety of 45 Autos. One day, I measured a bullet and it was .453. Lyman got that wrong but I never had a problem.

I replaced it with both a .452 and .451 sizing dies. Sized bullets were spot on with both. After shooting both, I could tell no difference in anything, so I put the .451 up and still use the .452. Why .452 and not .451? Well just because.....I like even numbers.

In the past few years, I have read on this board, how some folks can't get their pistols to work well with .452 unless the barrel is throated. I have never had that problem in the several dozen Colt, USGI and Norinco 1911 pistols, they all take .452 just fine. I suppose that with everybody and their spotted goat making 1911s these days, some of them will require throating to shoot .452 bullets, but I don't have any of them.

Bottom line: I doubt if you will notice a difference, but if for some reason .452 does not work, then get a .451. I really don't like modifying firearms if a hand loading solution is available. I am just funny that way.

[DougGuy]

In the past few years, I have read on this board, how some folks can't get their pistols to work well with .452 unless the barrel is throated. I have never had that problem in the several dozen Colt, USGI and Norinco 1911 pistols, they all take .452 just fine.

Charles 20+ yrs ago, any gun show drop in 1911 barrel would plunk and shoot .452" and throating never was an issue. It wasn't even a consideration, and if you go back into the 1980s and 1990s gun rags, you will likely NEVER find an article or even a discussion on it. We didn't throat any of them they just worked. With .452" boolits. I shot pin loads which were 255gr K style LSWCs, I shot full WC, I dug out a box of old loaded .45 ammo and nearly ALL of the assembled rounds in that box had a good amount of boolit sitting proud of the case mouth. Quite the assortment of boolit styles too.

Back then I didn't even know what a throating reamer was!

Now these days? Totally different animal. 98% of the .45 ACP autopistols made will not plunk ANY of those assorded handloads that I used to routinely run through my stable of 1911s without a hiccup. Most common is about a .040" inch long ring of .451" freebore in front of the chamber. Some are .4515" and even the aftermarket barrels like Storm Lake, Lone Wolf, KKM that have a decent .100" or .125" of freebore only size it .451" or .4515" and there is no way that any of these barrels will plunk a .452" or a PC boolit that has -any- measurement across the boolit greater than .451"

I have a growing collection of dummies that customers have sent in, this is a representative slice of what people are using, and the barrels they have sent along with them fully fit in the description and dimensions of the paragraph above this one. I will be willing to bet that most of these dummies will plunk in almost any 1911 barrel made 20 or 30 years ago.

Just the way things are, CNC machining has taken over and is SO accurate and repeatable, and if the mfgr takes any 5 or 6 factory loads and plunks them, and they plunk, that's all they are going to do. There is no adherence of SAAMI specs in the process, since none of the jacketed factory rounds are .453" which btw, *IS* the SAAMI spec for .45 ACP boolits. I think right there, is where the deviation from SAAMI came into the picture, when CNC took over and factory jacketed rounds were only ever .451" so if you look at the reasons why modern barrels need throating, right there it is, and this is how it got this way.

This is why older barrels will gladly plunk .452" handloads and newer barrels won't. Furthermore, it is made even worse by claims of "match grade" barrels which manufacturers have tightened the specs in their numerical programming to produce minimal chamber dimensions. The funny part of this is, WHO shoots matches with factory ammo? Kind of an oxymoron don't you think?

[DerekP Houston]

I use a .451 die, didn't know the difference at the time I ordered it. The only 1911 I have shoots it awesome with no issues so I haven't changed it. I either hi-tek or powdercoat my rounds and then run them through the sizer. No keyholing problems at all, no leading, :shrug: didn't feel the need to change it. IIRC I looked up the size recommended in my load book and went with .001 over size. Will test out the same rounds in my new 1911 when it arrives and I have time to hit the range.

[ShooterAZ]

I have a Para-Ordnance P14-45 that will only chamber and shoot .451 sized boolits. Everything else likes it at .452. Kind of a PITA to have to size differently for one gun.

[243winxb]

Match groove diameter + .0005" if possible. My S&W likes .451" The Colt .452" for best accuracy. I did return dies to Lyman till i got ones that sized as marked. Most guns/shooters cant tell the difference.

[lightload]

In my older 1911s I always sized at .452 in order for the case mouth to have more bullet pull or grip on the bullet. This tactic was necessary to prevent set back when using thinner commercial brass. So I selected this diameter for reasons other than fit. My ammo always shot accurately and did not lead. When loading jacketed bullets I preferred the thicker military brass. I was young, ignorant, and happy.

[DougGuy]

I have a Para-Ordnance P14-45 that will only chamber and shoot .451 sized boolits. Everything else likes it at .452. Kind of a PITA to have to size differently for one gun.

That's what barrel throating fixes.

[Cowboy_Dan]

I have a Para-Ordnance P14-45 that will only chamber and shoot .451 sized boolits. Everything else likes it at .452. Kind of a PITA to have to size differently for one gun.

That's funny, my brother's P14-45 happily eats .452" boolits, loaded just the same as his pre-A1 1911. Any idea when your P14 was built?

Every time we shoot his 1911, I reflect on the fact that it definately was issued in WWI. If only it could tell us its story ...

[Shiloh]

Every gun is different. In a tight chamber .451 might make a difference. Mine feeds and shoots .452 very very well.

Shiloh

[fredj338]

I load for 7-8 diff 45acp, always sized 0.452", lubed or now coated.

[Wis. Tom]

I have a Springfield Armory 1911-1A, that will only shoot a .451 boolit. I have tried multiple different molds, but that, and my Lee 45 crimp die, is the only thing I have found, that gives me dependable cycling, every time. My other 1911s' aren't as picky, but that one is.

[WFO2]

I have used 451 in jacketed bullets and 452 in jacketed as well and all my 1911's run them fine. I stumbled across 452 when I bought Berry's bullets to reload .When I start casting for my 45acp I will use 452's .Still studying on a mold for that one .

[DougGuy]

I have a Springfield Armory 1911-1A, that will only shoot a .451 boolit. I have tried multiple different molds, but that, and my Lee 45 crimp die, is the only thing I have found, that gives me dependable cycling, every time. My other 1911s' aren't as picky, but that one is.

This is why.

99% of modern production .45 ACP barrels either have little to no freebore in front of the chamber so the boolits are jammed right into the leade in to the rifling when the round is chambered, or what little freebore they DO have, is just a hair too small to let a .452" boolit into the throat. Either way throating the barrel fixes the issues the best way possible. No more having to seat deeper which really only creates a second problem as a workaround to the first, tight or non existent barrel throat. Stock Springfield Armory barrel on left, throated Springfield Armory barrel on the right.


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Both1_zps194dd462.jpg.html)

[Wis. Tom]

Thank you DougGuy. I love this place.

[Smk SHoe]

I size all my .45 ACP to .451. My sprinfield armory 1911 would probably cycle sized at .455-.458 ( lots of round down the barrel 50K-60K ) But i reload for all the neighbors ( 7, 1911's or clones ) and .451 feeds in everyone's. What I may loose in accuracy I gain in confidence that any of my .45 ACP will cycle.

[h8dirt]

I use 0.452" exclusively in my 45's -- autos and revolvers. The auto's are from Colt, Wilson Combat, Kimber and Glock (after market barrel). Never had a problem. I'd avoid the Lee FLSD like the plague if in persuit of premium accuracy -- they will reduce the diameter of your "boolit".

[3 gun Gus]

I size mine to.453. Fit is king, size them to what works.