Lathe Purchase Dilemma

[dsbock]

I have the option to buy an Atlas 618 lathe with some tooling for $500.

I brought over a friend who owns several lathes and worked as a machinist to see the lathe and he says it's in good shape.

Anyone have one of these lathes? I'm not looking for anything massive at this time. The 6x18 dimensions of this lathe seem right to me for anything up to simple rifle barrel work.

I would appreciate any thought on this.

Thanks.

David

[Bent Ramrod]

I've had one for decades, and the number of jobs it's pulled out of the fire are legion. You can't make heavy cuts on the thing, and the hand change gears slow down the work, but for the hobbyist on a tight budget with only a minor amount of room, it expands one's gun repair capabilities amazingly.

The $500 cost should include enough tooling to make the purchase worthwhile. If part of that tooling includes the three and four jaw chuck, the right and left hand tool holders, the tailstock chuck and dead center, all the change gears and spacers, the manual, a thread gauge and a micrometer, and the machine itself is in good condition, it should be a fairly decent buy. If it includes the milling attachment, you are in even better shape.

Clausing/Atlas still supports the machine with parts, and of course they're parted out all over E-Bay, so you should be in good shape for spares for the rest of time. You can check and see what Atlas 618s in various conditions go for on there to see whether the purchase price is out of line or not.

[bob208]

they are way ahead of the harbor fright mini lathes for the same price.

look up rp machincs on you tube. he does a lot of work on one. makes it look like it is a much bigger lathe.

[akajun]

In New York you are in the used machine tool
meca. For 500$ you can buy a much larger/ stouter machine.

[dsbock]

The tooling (so far) includes:
two live and one dead center for the tailstock
one toolpost and holder
a bunch of various cutters (carbide)
two 3-jaw chucks
and a random assortment of other odds and ends.
It may include a quick change toolpost, a knurling cutter, and some other miscellaneous pieces.

No 4-jaw chuck or tailstock chuck as far as they know. The lathe was their late fathers and they are still finding stuff, some of which is for the much larger South Bend lathe.

Akajun, where I live in New York, good quality lathes for a reasonable price are few and far between.

Thanks for the input folks.

David

[JSH]

David that sounds a fair deal to me. I have been to several auctions chasing used lathes in my neck of the woods. Most were SB 9's, condition has varied but price has stayed right around $1000. The last one I looked at was real nice and well cared for,sold for $1600 with zero tooling going with it for that money. Lathe came with original tool holder and a three jaw chuck and tail stock. All the extras sold for new price or more!
So I have went back and pretty much decided on one of the Grizzly lathes. I know some folks knock them but one old machinist actually called me and we had a long visit. He has had his benchtop lathe for 30 years with no measurable wear from use, he said he played with his every day at least an hour or so and the last several years it has run 6-8 hours a day doing some piece work.
A used lathe from a USA maker comes with its own issues. The Asian varieties have there issues as well. Depending on what you plan on doing with it should determine a lot and what kind of tolerances you expect to hold.
This is coming from a person that has enough knowledge to almost be dangerous, lol. I have done a fair bit of homework on these bench tops in the last few months. I am lucky to have a couple of tool and die maker friends that are real helpful in my choices. A lot can be done with little equipment, if you know how to make work what you have.
Jeff

[bob208]

the other question to ask is do you want a lathe now or spend the next few months or a year looking for one? I have played that game both ways. in the long run it is better take the deal you have in hand.

[halfslow]

I recently got one in nice condition.
Since I already have a HF 6x19, I know how useful one this size can be.
The more accessories you can get in the deal, the better that price becomes.

One thing I missed about the HF model is I did not get a 4 jaw chuck.
This has been an annoyance that I think the Atlas 618 has solved.

I found a lot of info about them at these two sites:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/atlas6inch/
http://users.frii.com/katana/618.html

[KCSO]

I HAD a SB 9A that I used for a long time and like a fool I got rid of it for a bigger new and improved Grizzly. I ended up buying another Atlas 12x36 for threading and such as it works better than the new lathe. I paid $1200 with a LOT of tooling. This was from a machinist of the old school and was clean with no bed scarring and when I dial in 10 thou it cuts 10 thou not some metric close. The old ones if well kept will do the job you jest need to be creative in your set ups.

Now from the start, no matter what anyone tells you learn to single point you will need it on occasion and use a 4 jaw only for the first year so you can learn to dial it in in under a minute. I had to pass both these tests before I was allowed to use a die or a 3 jaw chuck.

[Bent Ramrod]

Second KCSO's advice on the four jaw chuck and learning to single point. If there is one way my Atlas has paid for itself, it is all the money I saved not having to buy special dies for the weird threads and diameters used in gun screws. You can do without a three jaw if you have a four jaw (and perhaps a dial indicator for setting up), but there will be things you want to do that will require a four jaw, and no artistry in shimming up a three jaw will suffice. Last I saw, ones in that size were about $100, but that was a while ago. You might use that as a dickering point on the final price of the setup.

That's good advice from bob208 as well. Unless you are living in or near a depressed industrial area, where machinery comes up on Craig's List or the auction sites daily or weekly, the question of what you want to do--lathe work or searching for the perfect machine at the perfect price--becomes a factor. I saw a lot of machine tools for sale in Southern California before I left. The same stuff almost never appears for sale here in Arizona.

[Frank46]

Looked all over Louisiana when I wanted a lathe. You'd figure being in the oil patch there would be plenty to look at. Found exactly one lathe sitting on a service road covered in rust and the wiring looked to have been ripped out of whatever electrical box it had been connected to. No price tag except the name of the business. Found the company and asked around about it. $5000 and what you saw is what you got. Bought a jet 14x40 gearhead lathe with goodies and stand for considerably less. Frank

[6bg6ga]

I'd spend a little more money for a newer lathe capable of making a heavier cut without slowing it down to the point where it stalls.

[EDG]

Spend another $500 to $1500 and get something that resembles a real lathe.
I had one of those and it was not fit for anything but turning case rims.

I only paid $75 for mine and I didn't really think it was worth that. I have about 10,000 hours running many different lathes and that was the most disgusting machine I ever tried to use.

[plainsman456]

I got mine for 400.00.
It does a good job at cutting threads and turning other items.
As said it won't stand a large cut but then it doesn't weight a ton.

Get it and do some cutting it's fun,but i still want a larger lathe when i grow up,I am around 60+-.:bigsmyl2:

[dsbock]

Thanks for all the feedback folks.

Just to clarify, I'm not deciding between this lathe and another lathe, I'm deciding between this lathe or no lathe for the duration.

My discretionary funding was eaten up by medical bills and a reduced work schedule. I want to get a lathe sooner rather than later because there may be no later.

I have heard many good things about this lathe as a hobbyist machine and a few bad things, mostly regarding it's power in production work. Overall the feedback has been more to the positive.

Any more feedback from actual experience with this lathe would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

David

[cheese1566]

I say buy it!

Get the the best and most you can afford. I would look at it myself if around here. I was actually in the local machine shop yesterday discussing oils and lubes and we got to talking about the old Craftsmn 109 I bought two weeks ago. He showed me an old small Atlas in the back that they keep around for some specific jobs they find easier to do on it then their big ones.

If its your first one, I think it will be just fine start on and learn. You could always go bigger from there.

Enjoy and most of all have fun!

[dsbock]

I was able to take a more detailed look at the Atlas 618 lathe. It is in excellent condition. I looked at the gears: no missing teeth. I pulled off the three-jaw chuck: came off easily and the spindle has clean threads. The current owner is including a new in box set of quick release tool holders and knurling tool (current value $185) as well at the items I mentioned above and a few other bits and pieces. We agreed on $625 for everything. I'll post pictures once I get it home next week.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

David

[plainsman456]

You have done a good thing.

You will also find out the the lathe is the cheap part,the tooling can drive you to distraction.:bigsmyl2:
I was lucky to get a quick change tool post for mine as well as 14 bit holders,threading tool and a knurling tool for 400.00.

Just take time to get used to it and you can turn some good looking threads.

[Bent Ramrod]

You will also find that it's a lot more "empowering" (as well as a lot more fun) to be a "manufacturer" than a "consumer."

Congratulations on your lathe.

[targetfreak]

Your next purchase/search should be for a four-jaw independent chuck. After that, a 3C collet closer and collet assortment, if you are extremely lucky. I have the same lathe and am very happy.

[PaulG67]

How much larger is the "Much larger South Bend" and what price and did you consider it and if not why not?

[dsbock]

The much larger South Bend is at least a 12x24 if not larger and would overwhelm the space in my workshop. When I pick mine up tonight I'll get more details.

Now to find a source for a 4-jaw chuck with a 10TPI threaded base plate.

I'll post pictures when I get it home.

Thanks.

David

[Bent Ramrod]

Look under "Atlas Lathe Parts" on E-Bay. There is also an Atlas newsgroup on Yahoo for any problems you might have. Some of those people sell their surplus Atlas stuff from time to time.

[dsbock]

Here are some pictures of the South Bend Lathe Paul G67 was asking about:

173014
173015
173016
173017
173018

[dsbock]

Here are some pictures of the Atlas 618 I bought. Pictures of the accompanying tooling coming soon.
173019
173020
173021
173022
173023

[izzyjoe]

Those are fun little lathes, you can do a lot of work on those, just take your time and don't hotrod it! I purchased a 12x54 atlas a few years back, and I found out I had to cut barrel threads at the tailstock, cause the spindle bore is only 7/8. So i can get small barrels in there, like 22's, but I have a lot of fun with mine, just haven't used it in few months cause it's been to hot in the shop. I wish you all the luck, And have fun!

[blackbahart]

that is a nice lathe ,when purchasing used its good to get a second opinion ,if you are starting out with used ,parts accesories and support.After that buy what you can afford when it presents it self .As using it will get you experience on them and when you wish to upgrade to say a larger one or more features you now know what your abilities are and what you require

[dsbock]

Blackbahart,

When I first looked at this lathe, I brought a friend who worked as a machinist for many years with me. He pronounced the lathe acceptable. While I have a good general knowledge of machinery, I know that I don't know very much about lathes.

My next step will be to build a stand followed by mounting and leveling the lathe. I'll be using these plans (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1A97WlhXy5zbWM5ZUVmY21OTkE) for the lathe stand.

After that I'll start making small pieces of metal out of bigger ones.

I'll post some pictures of the accessories that came with the lathe later today.

Any and all suggestions on how to get the most our of this lathe are appreciated.

Thanks.

David

[cheese1566]

dsblock,
rmcc justvsent me a copy of a manual for the Atlas 618. I cannot ise it as my craftsman 109.21270 is a Dunlop.
Can you use it?

[dsbock]

dsblock,
rmcc justvsent me a copy of a manual for the Atlas 618. I cannot ise it as my craftsman 109.21270 is a Dunlop.
Can you use it?

Absolutely! Which manual do you have?

I'll PM you my mailing address.

Thank you very much.

David

[SierraHunter]

I've got a older lathe I picked up awhile back. It is a 8x42 and I got it for $450 with all the extras and a couple milk crates of cutters and boring bars. I personally wouldn't get anything with less then a 36" bed. I used to work at a machine shop and the smallest one we had there was a 10x60.

[dsbock]

SierraHunter,

I'm a hobbyist. All my metal working to this point has been on my drill press and/or with hand files.

The lathe I purchased is all I could afford in both money and space. If my circumstances for both change in the future, I would certainly consider up-sizing.

Since you worked in a machine shop, do you have any suggestions for getting the most out of the lathe I have? Tooling and accessory supply sources?

Thanks.

David

[SierraHunter]

The guy that taught me how to run a lathe and mill (and I am by no means good at it..still a beginner) told me when he took an apprentice ship that the guy told him he would break $600 a week in tooling. I'm broken a fair number of cutters, and as bad as I hate to say it, I still do. I honestly buy the cheapest tooling I can find for now since I still go through it at a fairly high rate. Harbor freight has somewhat decent stuff.

[Bent Ramrod]

There's a four-jaw chuck for the 6" Atlas on E-Bay right now. A little grungy but the original box and instructions. Don't know how to copy links on this Tablet but just type in "Atlas 4-Jaw Chuck" and it should come up. The bid was 15 bucks last I looked. Keep an eye out for the milling attachment, too. Generally they go for inflated amounts, but they are pretty handy for little jobs.

You have a good machine there, and by the time you get skilled enough on it to need larger and stouter equipment you won't need anybody to tell you what you should buy next.

Get a copy of Ways and Means by A. H. Cleaves and The Amateur's Lathe by W. H. Speary. Milling Operations on the Lathe by Tubal Cain is a valuable read too. Browse up the Olde Tyme Book Store (I think that's it's name now) which is the reincarnation of the old Lindsey's Books. They reprint a lot of the old machine shop books. That forgotten skill and technique is right in there with us guys working in our basements and garages.

[SierraHunter]

There is a older book by the title of "how to run a lathe". The author slips my mind at the moment but it is a very good book.

Something to think about...no matter what modern lathe you have, it is probably better then anything Harry Pope ever dreamed of, and he built some fine rifles with what he had. The secret to a lathe is just start messing with it. Go buy some cold rolled steel and just start cutting. Doesn't have to anything in peticular. Just cut. Try different things. Watch how the cutter works and learn from it. Practice different crown styles, or building top punches. If you have marlins with the cheap plastic followers build aluminum followers. The most you run it, the better you know it, and just like with a gun, the better you know it, the better work you can do with it.

[dsbock]

I received a Harbor Freight flyer in the mail today. I'll have to see what they have for lathe tooling. I heard something similar about breaking tooling.

This looks like the 4-jaw chuck (http://www.ebay.com/itm/381715309620?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT) you mentioned on eBay. I asked the seller about the spindle threading. My lathe is 10TPI, some of the older lathes were 8TPI. I've seen a few of the milling attachments go for several hundred dollars. Too rich for my blood.

I've been building my machining library for a while now. Among others I have:
"How to Run a Lathe" by South Bend Lathe Works
"The Amateur's Lathe" by Sparey
"Basic Lathework" by Bray
"The Home Machinist's Handbook" by Briney
"The Starrett Book for Student Machinists" by Starrett
"Machine Shop Basics" by Miller
"Machine Shop Practice, Volume 1" by Moltrecht
I even found a copy of "TM 1-420: Lathes" from 11/29/1940 and "TM 10-445: The Machinist" from 11/12/1941

Lindsey Books continues on as Your Old Time Bookstore (https://www.youroldtimebookstore.com/). I'll see what else they have.

As soon as I get my lathe bench built and the lathe mounted and leveled, I'll be making small pieces of metal out of larger ones.

Thanks for all the input folks.

David

[izzyjoe]

You have some very informative books there,also build a bench that you can park a Mac truck on!

[dsbock]

Izzyjoe,

I'm building a bench to these plans (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1A97WlhXy5zbWM5ZUVmY21OTkE). 2x10 legs, 3/4" plywood sides, and back, double layer 3/4" plywood top. I think I'll be good.

Thanks,

David

[SierraHunter]

South Bend. That's who that book it by.

[plainsman456]

Might make the bench high enough that you don't have to stoop over when using it.

I did mine and it has saved whats left of my back.

[dsbock]

Plainsman456,

Yup, that's the plan. Bed height of the lathe should be elbow height on me.

I'll post pictures of the bench when I'm done.

Thanks.

David

[Crank]

David,
I saw this thread shortly after you posted it, but didn't feel I had much to add at that point. At this point, congratulations on the new acquisition, you did the right thing since the original question was based on buying this lathe or no lathe at all. Looking back at the number of lathes I have owned over the years is almost disturbing, but it was always a matter of opportunity and what I could afford (usually pretty broke). As others have stated, you will learn with this one, both in the aspect of how to use it, but also how well it meets your needs. That will be invaluable should you later decide that something else will better suit your machining desires. I have had 3 Atlas's, 4 South Bends, Sherline, Enco, Rockwell and finally my "last lathe", a 14x60 Graziano Sag 14. It's 9 feet long, weighs 3000lbs and runs a full 5hp on 3 phase power through a rotary phase converter. Space and finances prevented owning something this massive in the past, so all of those others in the past helped me learn what was going to suit my needs later in life. The others have confirmed the truth, the lathe is the cheap part, tooling will be where you can go crazy spending money, so buy prudently and keep you eyes open for other lathes that come available. Sometimes you can buy them with a bonanza of tooling, keep the tooling and then re-sell the lathe to offset the cost. Keep it fun and enjoy the opportunity to learn. I wish you the best.

Mark

[bob208]

check out the you videos I posted about. the guy shows you how to make most of the tooling for your lathe. even a milling attachment and steady rest. right now I have a guy coming to my place and I am teaching him to run a lathe and mill. after a year he got a south bend 9" with the long bed and a Rockwell vertical mill. now when he comes I have him making tooling he needs for his machines. when I was learning tool making we made most of our own tooling.

[Frank46]

While the trend today is carbide tooling I bought my first lathe just after I got out of the navy. So started learning how to grind my own tool bits and was cheaper than carbide. Good practice and suprisingly they worked very well. The lathe mentioned is a craftsman 6"x20" one and still have all the gears, tooling I bought and just about all the goodies that they offered at the time. Frank

[Bent Ramrod]

The advantage of carbide tooling is speed and heavier cuts. Small lathes don't have the rigidity to work these advantages in most cases, and a chipped or broken edge is the frequent result. A few "quality import" brazed-insert carbide tools are handy to have around, though, if you encounter an unexpectedly hard piece of metal you don't want to bother annealing.

Oh, I forgot--get a copy of Machinery's Handbook. Used book stores frequently have older copies cheap in their Technology sections. All the Good Stuff there in one volume.

[Kilroy08]

For the smaller lathes learning how to grind various tools out of high speed steel is very important. As Bent Ramrod stated, carbide tooling can be problematic in the smaller machines. Rigidity AND tool pressure come in to play here.

Check out mrpete222 on youtube. His channel is a free college level education in how to be a machinist.

[dsbock]

I'll keep my eyes open for a copy of "Machinery's Handbook" in my travels.

I have a grinder and have been reading up on grinding HSS tools for a while. I'm prepared to ruin a bunch before I get any right.

I've been following Lyle (mrpete222) for a while now. I've learned so much from his videos. He picked up the Craftsman version of the 618 (https://youtu.be/RafC7w7R4rc) and will be doing a series of videos on it as time permits.

Thanks all.

David

[Clark]

Here are some pictures of the Atlas 618 I bought.
173769
I got a 1938 Atlas Craftsman 12x36 lathe when my age 57 friend died in 2005 of a heart attack while hunting. He had put Timken tapered roller bearings and shims in it.
I forget what I paid the widow.
I put a Pac Nor 270 barrel on a pre 64 Win M70 and shot 9 mule deer with it.
I put a fat barrel on a 243 Mauser with it.
I put a skinny barrel on a 243 Mauser with it.
I put a fat 6mmBR barrel on a Sav 99 with it.
I put a 308 barrel on a Mausers with it.
I put another 308 barrel on a Mauser with it.

I gave the lathe to a guy I hunt with. He makes car parts with it.

I can remember some of the limitations.
At cutting threads and chamber on a barrel, it takes twice as long as a big powerful heavy lathe.
Any barrel material larger than the 0.78" hole in the headstock is going to be out in the steady rest.
It would take forever to remove pounds of steel to make a big barrel vise or action wrench.


173770
I made a spider for it.

[dsbock]

Here are some pictures of the bench I'm making for my lathe. Made from 2x10 lumber and 3/4" plywood. The top (almost finished) is doubled 3/4" plywood with pine trim at the outer edges.

174276

174277

174278

[dsbock]

The bench is built and the lathe is mounted and (as best as I can tell) leveled. And yes, that is an old coffee can used as a cover for the reversing switch. The previous owner made it and I decided it had to stay.

175138

175139

[Kilroy08]

Looking good!

For teaching yourself to grind tools from HSS blanks, grab some cheap 1018 3/8" square stock and use that to practice grinding the profiles.

[No Blue]

I looked at a little bigger Atlas about 30 years ago; 12x36. Nice shape and had the standard tooling that most came from the factory with. But he wanted $1500, which is about $3000 in todays money. So I looked, found a Frejoth 13x39, Taiwan, fully tooled with the cabinet/stand 2hp motor and 1 yr old for $2500. This lathe was $4900 new.Back then everything cost at least twice what you'd pay today. Just didn't have the competition, they didn't know how to make it fast and accurate because CNC was still just for the really big guys. They made it on manual machines and then scraped the ways to get it straight and level, or a surface grinder like Frejoth. They were the wholesale manufacturer for a lot of the labels you see in this country.

But when I was looking, anything a hobby guy would like was top dollar. The big lathes were selling for about scrap value unless they were a Monarch or some Swiss or German tool room lathe. Those were big bucks. If two guys with a length of 4x4 wood and some chain could lift it, price was way up. I had to use my engine hoist to lift and move the Frejoth, and that would limit where I could sell it.

I also bought a SB 9x18 about 20 years ago, that's perfect for most home shops. Enough power for most jobs, 120v, 2 guys can lift it. That was encouraging to hear how much those puppies are selling for, mine was $500 with the 3 and 4 jaws, face plate, taper, expanding mandrels, probably 200 pounds of tooling.

The electric motor is this odd ball they don't make anymore; repulsion induction or something like that. It has a handle on one end that rotates the brush holders. At one extreme it's full speed clockwise, and as I rotate the handle the other way, the motor slows down, stops and reverses direction until it's full speed counter clockwise. Perfect for a lathe.

You got the same library I got, I found Ebay single point boring bars out of China were a deal for the hobby guy.

Have fun!

[dsbock]

Completed my first project on the lathe.

The ball crank on the compound rest was missing the nut. I found a nut with the same thread, chucked it up in the three jaw and turned it down to the correct diameter. Worked like a charm. I had some chatter at first, but I adjusted the cutter angle and everything smoothed up. Nice finish and everything.

I still have much to learn, but I'm getting there.

David

[snowwolfe]

I admire you for starting this new hobbie. Always wanted a lathe when I was younger but now feel like I am to old to take advantage of one.

[dsbock]

Snowwolfe,

We're never too old to learn something new. My father is 79 years old and started learning about (and selling) newly developed medical devices.

Give it a try, see whether you like it or not.

David

[fiberoptik]

Used same in high school (South Bend)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fiberoptik]

Then moved to a Monarch. BBBBBbbbbbIIIIIIIGGGG!


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[ricksplace]

Try these folks for chinese tooling

cdcotools.com
wttool.com

I tried a 5" 3 jaw chuck from cdco. After careful fitting to a new backing plate, it runs at .0015" tir on my southbend 9a. It is rated at .003 tir. Chuck and a new backing plate was less than 100 bucks.

Wholesale tool has about the best prices on 1/4" hss tool bits.

[dsbock]

Ricksplace,

Thanks for the websites. I'll take a look at them for a four jaw chuck.

David