Hollow point expension at modest velocity?

[Naphtali]

Several months ago I was given information so bizarre that it might be accurate. I would have queried earlier, but I thought I would embarrass myself with naïveté.

Okay, here goes. A significant problem with hollow point ammunition - in my specific case Remington HTR +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP - is the hollow point clogging with clothing or other material. Expansion does not occur, causing excessive penetration and significantly reducing ability of the bullet to stop the threat.

I was told that filling the "FBI Load's" hollow point with paraffin eliminates clogging, restoring the bullet's expansion while controlling excessive penetration.

I am reluctant to drip hot wax on live ammunition to test the information. So I'm asking: Has anyone tested this concept?

[Walkingwolf]

I am not a hollow point fan, but I doubt the wax would survive the intense heat of blow by before it exited the barrel.

But beeswax would probably season the barrel well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

It is common practice to load a grinding wheel with Beeswax to prevent it from clogging up when grinding Aluminum. Also to load a bandsaw blade for the same reason.

The Wax occupies the space between the granules of grit on the wheel but still allows to tops of the grit particles to be proud and do the cutting action. By doing this the wheel is already "loaded",, so to speak, and thus the hot metal chips have no place to go and collect. Otherwise the soft metal would simply clog the wheel and then build up to where it was above the grit and make the wheel useless.

The idea of plugging an HP would be a similar concept and would probably work in low speed applications. If you look at some of the Personal Defense Ammunition out there, the HP's have a plastic plug in them to prevent clothing from clogging the HP, and not having enough force to cause expansion.

If I was going to try this stuff out I would pour some Beeswax into some HPs, load them and shoot some Jello with them and see what happened. Only way to find out would be to try it.

Randy.

[Yodogsandman]

I've heard the same "bizarre" report for some time now, too. Silicone can be used.

[UKShootist]

Why not get a pork joint and some old clothes and try it?

[Outpost75]

Yes, it works. Any soft inert filler will work, ATV silicone caulk is easiest.

[buckwheatpaul]

Napthali, The often quoted FBI load was really developed for the Dallas Police Department in the early 1970's and subsequently adopted by the FBI. With that said Dallas used that load for years and it was effective in single shot stops without over penetration. The HP clogging with wall board and / or clothing is old and does occur at times....but I have been to numerous officer involved shoots where that old 38 Special round was used and did exactly as designed.....

[fredj338]

Yes it works, shooters have been doing such things for the last75yrs or so. The worst thing that happens with a plugged hp, jacketed or lead, is it won't expand & penetrate further. In all, not a terrible thing. If the bullet is in the right spot, expansion is just icing on the cake.
The important thing about any expanding bullet is the HP design. These lead HP have all gone thru 2 layers of denim.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/452-268-1K.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/45-215gr.jpg.html)

[Walkingwolf]

My brother was shot with a lead round nose 38 spl in the late sixties. The bullet missed the bone and did pass through but was found a short distance after it exited his arm. The soft lead bullet at low velocity deformed. It is highly unlikely the bullet had enough umpf to injure anyone had it hit another party. Thankfully the shooter had poor shot placement(another officer standing behind him).

The old 38 LRN had been used in a few shootings, and the ammo always performed by stopping the threat. In one case a detective shot a dirt bag in the groin that was holding a nurse hostage. The 38/44 factory round nose shattered the pelvis, and landed on the other side of the room. It made a slight dent in the metal cabinet in the ER.

Ammo is a personal choice, unless the government is deciding for you, same with weapons. A lung shot that does not hit ribs is going to pass through, there is little flesh for hydraulics. A limb shot without hitting bone is going to pass through, due to muscle tissue will lose most energy. That leaves the skull with a hard bone that God designed to protect the brain from impact. It leaves organs that will consume much of the energy even with FMJ. The true safety winner is shot placement and accuracy.

Even the rifle bullet that killed JFK only injured Governor John Connolly. A military hard ball rifle round at probably over 2000 fps, compared to less than 1200 fps most handgun ammo.

I train for three targets when shooting, the head, heart, and pelvis. Head is usually an immediate stop, heart and pelvis will cause massive loss of blood. Plus the pelvis will likely put the criminal on the ground. Harder to hit the spine usually results in an immediate stop just as reliable as a head shot. But for the spine penetration is needed, unless the person is shot in the back.

[Victor N TN]

Back in the mid 1970s a friend of mine "SAID" that he filled 44 mag HP bullets with mercury (you could go to the local drug store and buy it) and topped it with candle wax.

He and I hunted a lot a long time ago. He might stretch things a bit. But I don't know of a lie that he told.

[runfiverun]

glue gun.

[DougGuy]

Dang r5 on it again! I like that one!

[GhostHawk]

I would not be afraid of dripping hot wax on a loaded round. Lead, perhaps, if you did enough of it. Wax, no, simply not going to get hot enough before it runs away.

And I agree with the glue gun idea. Bondo I believe has been used, along with a world of other substances.

[beagle]

There was an article way back when in the American Riflemen. The subject was enhancing expansion on HP bullets. As I recall, it was based on the .45/70 and the .38 Special/.357 Magnum.

The method attempted was to fill the hollow point cavity with several substances. As I recall, they used cooking oil, 30W motor oil, water, hydraulic fluid and maybe Crisco and GP grease.

The cavity was sealed by seating a BB and in several cases, a fired primer and capped with sealer.

The bullets used as I recall were the 457122 Gould HP and the 358156HP.

Results varied dependent on the expansion of the filler. Some were better than others for the purpose.

Maybe some of you packrats that save American Rifleman magazines can dig it up and post results/offer scans.

It was pretty interesting./beagle

[beagle]

The Union Army experimented with mercury filled bullets during the civil war. They apparently worked well. Supposedly soldiers caught carrying them were hung on site. Kind of put that idea on the back burner./beagle


Back in the mid 1970s a friend of mine "SAID" that he filled 44 mag HP bullets with mercury (you could go to the local drug store and buy it) and topped it with candle wax.

He and I hunted a lot a long time ago. He might stretch things a bit. But I don't know of a lie that he told.

[fredj338]

I believe Keith even exp with black powder filled hp capped with a primer. Gotta be a shallow penetrator.

[cainttype]

Yes, it works. Any soft inert filler will work, ATV silicone caulk is easiest.

Ditto

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3149.jpg.html)

These were cast of air cooled 50/50 WW-Pb, HP's pre plugged with LBT Blue Soft boolit lube. They were shot through 4 layers of denim into water, or wood. Expansion was identical every time. Vel was 850 fps. from an 1-7/8" barrel.

The numbers are retained weight, starting at 162 grains.

[3jimbo3]

A friend and I experimented with mercury and candle wax in .357 hollow points. We shot his mailbox post with a hollow point plain, the result was a bullet somewhere in the post. We then used a mercury filled hollow point. The result was his wife was extremely po'd that we had to replace the post. It worked really well. We did this about thirty years ago, I'm pretty sure if you were to get caught with such a load now you would probably become a guest of a federal institution of the judges choice. It was fun though!

[gwpercle]

And heaven forbid you use it in a self-defense situation ! The lawyers would have a field day with that.
I don't even want to think what would happen to you for shooting a bad guy with a mercury filled HP in California ....!

[William Yanda]

So far, several substances have been mentioned for the purpose, candle wax, RTV silicone, hot glue and others. Results from negligible to notable have been reported. Has anyone theorized on the mechanism involved? Why would it make a difference if one of these substances were used instead of denim or wallboard? I am curious, not trolling, and I'm definitely not volunteering to demonstrate the results.
Bill

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Back in the mid 1970s a friend of mine "SAID" that he filled 44 mag HP bullets with mercury (you could go to the local drug store and buy it) and topped it with candle wax.

He and I hunted a lot a long time ago. He might stretch things a bit. But I don't know of a lie that he told.


There's knowing and there's knowing, but consider the possibility that you are getting warm. I don't think there is much doubt that mercury-filled cavities can sometimes produce dramatic effects, although I believe the jury is still out on whether they do it by promoting expansion, or by decelerating less quickly than lead and copper, and leaving a cavity guaranteed to be unclogged. But I don't know if they are reliable in their effect, and as with generalship, the important factor isn't the best they can do, but the worst they might.

That is minus the other snags. Mercury will form a gooey amalgam with all metals in common use except iron, and there is a very strong likelihood that it will do it more on one side than the other. It would have to be enclosed in some kind of capsule or lacquer, and that is likely to produce added eccentricity. Not many people test such things for terminal effect and for accuracy. Glycerin is less active, but far lighter.

Explosive bullets have been used since not long after the invention of percussive primers, both for blowing up ammunition wagons and for dangerous game. I would suspect that the Gould bullet, with the inserted .22 blank, would be the best of them. But they have never caught on in either capacity. They don't always go off, and Ronald Reagan could tell you a thing or two about that. They just turn into bad hollowpoints. Even if they do, it is likely to happen on the surface and turn a dangerous large animal into an extremely angry one. It takes a big bullet to do this well, and most people thought a big lead bullet, like a .44 Magnum HP, isn't in conspicuous need of having its inadequacies overcome.

The use of soft wax or glue is far more promising. I've seen excessively hard lube staying in the grooves all the way to the target, and any lube ought to stand byblow all the way to the muzzle. I'd say beeswax should be fine, but in a flat-based bullet you could cover it with a disc of paper label or self-adhesive copper foil tape. I buy the latter to keep slugs off my potted strawberries, as there is a faint electrolytic effect they don't like. Most of the common waxes with a higher melting-point than beeswax are hard enough to shatter, but soft high-temperature wax sheet is used for making investment casting models. I've used the 3/16in. version from McMaster-Carr, self-adhesive on one side for sticking to card, for lube cookies.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So far, several substances have been mentioned for the purpose, candle wax, RTV silicone, hot glue and others. Results from negligible to notable have been reported. Has anyone theorized on the mechanism involved? Why would it make a difference if one of these substances were used instead of denim or wallboard? I am curious, not trolling, and I'm definitely not volunteering to demonstrate the results.
Bill

Denim and wallboard are compressible, but a liquid or semi-liquid substance isn't, and will transmit a forceful impact on the front into outward movement. The effect is well illustrated by experiments with shotgun wads in earlier times. Cork would compress without expansion, so it didn't seal well, and produce bad patterns and shot fused together by heat. Rubber expanded too well, producing an excellent seal but grossly excessive pressures. Good quality felt with edges rolled in grease got it just right.

[dubber123]

So far, several substances have been mentioned for the purpose, candle wax, RTV silicone, hot glue and others. Results from negligible to notable have been reported. Has anyone theorized on the mechanism involved? Why would it make a difference if one of these substances were used instead of denim or wallboard? I am curious, not trolling, and I'm definitely not volunteering to demonstrate the results.
Bill

As noted, you basically need to keep the cavity filled with a substance that can flow under pressure. HP's shot into straight water usually look well expanded, because water... flows. Plug the HP with wood, sheetrock, cloth, etc, and the HP often fails. I had repeatable results with my cast HP's with a soft, flowing filler. Unplugged ones were erratic, and often failed at the modest velocities I was shooting.

[popper]

Not sure that HPs get plugged as much as collapsing the wrong way on initial impact. Any hard filler would prevent that. Water is not compressible so acts the same way.

[S.B.]

I believe Keith even exp with black powder filled hp capped with a primer. Gotta be a shallow penetrator.

Al Georg, in his book, experimented with hollow point filled with a reversed .22(with bullet nose snubbed off) in .44 magnums, exploding bullets he called them, also. IIRC I still have the tool I bought from him many moons back?
Steve