Planned gunsmithing shop purchase: what are the most common jobs? [Archive]

Andy

07-14-2016, 12:51 AM

Edit: If you're coming new to the thread please read my other responses in the body of the thread, I've added a good bit of info that is probably worth reading before you respond. Some things I said in this first post I've corrected a bit or clarified in the following ones.

Edit #2: November 2018: I just happened to come back across this thread in an internet search almost 2.5 years later and thought I would do a quick follow up. The gun shop has worked out well and has become a much more significant part of my income than I expected it would be. I have built up a few niche areas where I am the go-to shop in the area and business has steadily increased over the last two years to where the gun shop is quickly becoming my main business instead of a side thing. I'm very appreciative of the info I got back in 2016 from this thread, it certainly helped me to approach things the right way and contributed to the business becoming a success. The additional work/income from the gun shop has rounded out self-employment nicely for me and I am able to stay gainfully employed in profitable work nearly 100% of the time now.

Original post follows:
Some key points I want to make before you read more are that this is a SIDE business that will be co-located with my existing business (i.e. I am the only guy running both things) and that I'm just exploring if I am likely to be able to net $1800 or more a year out of it.

Original post:

I'm about to become the owner of a turn-key rural (very small) gunsmithing shop. I am planning out the business and would like to know from those in business (or repeat gunsmithing customers), what are the most common tasks you are asked to do by customers. I will have my other (main) woodworking business co-located with this and I am a one-man shop. I'll have a small retail front (room for only 2-4 people in the store kind of thing) where I stock ammo, powder and primers and other items only by request or regular demand.

I will be the only gunsmith within an hour drive for about 1000 locals and add on a couple hundred hunters during the appropriate seasons as we're an attractive hunting destination here. The area is rural with generally low to moderate income locals with maybe 10% by volume higher income customers who own lakefront vacation property and/or come here to hunt.

I am not a trained gunsmith but the gentleman I am buying from is and has been showing me various tasks for about 6-10 hours a week as we have worked though the buying process over the last month. This will continue for a month from now so I have some chance to ask him to show me things based on your recommendations.

So, what do you get asked to do the most? Separate from that, what tasks make you the best money per hour or are the most fun and you will always keep doing for one reason or the other for example.

Edit: wanted to give some details on equipment as it relates to what jobs I can do: two very good condition atlas lathes (one with 36" between centers) with just about every piece of tooling/attachments imaginable, small mill with a huge assortment of tooling, couple small drill presses that could be better, heat treating furnace, barrel vise with lots of fittings, many small gunsmithing tools/jigs and an assortment of starret hand tools and that's about it. Everything is in tip-top, like new condition, the shop doesn't have a metal shaving or an out of place tool anywhere is how this man ran things.

M-Tecs

07-14-2016, 01:25 AM

Good luck on you new business. A friend of mine has a business model like yours. In passing he stated that he mostly did scope mountings and general cleaning. He also does a bunch of FFL transfers. If you have special skill focus on that. I know one gentleman that doesn't nothing other than stock work. Myself I'm a toolmaker and I am really only interested in working on match rifles.

What's the wait times on new FFL's now days?

Andy

07-14-2016, 01:47 AM

Thanks for the info, from what I have read online the last year or so it sounds like it is a 2-4 month wait once you have everything sent in, closer to the 2 month side. Surprisingly the little I have read on forums suggests they don't hassle you too much about it.

Mica_Hiebert

07-14-2016, 01:52 AM

barrel threading is pretty popular, my smith charges $50 +25 for a thread protector. trigger jobs and glass bedding are common requests too.not sure what he charges for those as ive only had him do thread work.

w5pv

07-14-2016, 07:18 AM

Take yourself a good gunsmithing course.I think it would pay in the long run

Preacher Jim

07-14-2016, 07:31 AM

Remember no one brings a job in till they need it yesterday. Many will not pick up work till the week before hunting season so you eat their job til then. Parts are getting harder to come by so get his lists of parts suppliers. Keep your records up to date you never know when the inspectors will check you. My friend lost his license because he had a junk action in the scrap bin and no record of it on book.
Do not take work you can not do unless you have a place to send it to finish. Network a source of people who do specialized things like metal finishes and such that you are not prepared to do.

pietro

07-14-2016, 08:06 AM

.

If you don't know how to run the equipment or weld (don't laugh) - especially the lathe(s) - either ask the former owner/gunsmith to tutor you, or look around for a local HS night class on machining metal & welding.

While mounting sights/scopes & cleaning (which "fixes" a lot of issues) jobs are common, drilling/tapping for various sights and/or scope mount bases will be important, and (given your customer base) likely the most productive ($$).

I'm also a woodworker, but unless one has experience and/or special skills, I would recommend staying away from re-stocking/checkering jobs for the time being - but IMO glass-bedding rifles can be both interesting & lucrative (given the cost of the supplies required).

What most customers have in mind though, is how much $$ a whatever job will cost them, so I would suggest taking the mystery out of it, and conspicuously post both your hourly rate and a flat rate for the most common jobs.

Don't forget to add your rate for idle chatter/BS to the list .......... ;)

.

Petrol & Powder

07-14-2016, 08:41 AM

I don't know what state you're located in but if the local regulations aren't too bad, there's money to be made in transfers and consignments. Both of those types of sales require little outlay from the FFL. You make your money when the gun transfers and you don't tie up much money while you're waiting to sell it. Theft, particularly night time burglaries, can be a problem so have a plan to address that issue. Never leave firearms in display cases when the shop is closed.
Most gunsmith type jobs are either things that gun owners are uncomfortable doing, like drilling & tapping for scopes or things they aren't equipped to handle. You can tie up a LOT of money in tools that you will rarely use. So limit yourself to jobs that are profitable with little investment in tools and time. Someone suggested farming out metal finishing and I would agree with that.
If your population is small (and it sounds like it is) you may wish to look to the internet to expand that customer base, particularly during off season.
Good Luck !

OS OK

07-14-2016, 09:27 AM

Just my opinion, but you ask...I think you ought re-think the deal.
If you wanted to work on guns you should have done an apprenticeship with a smith to learn the ins and outs of the trade, along with a good gunsmithing corse.
This is not like drawing a picture, where you can just erase a mistake and re-draw...this is a one time, get it right or you just screwed up a weapon type deal. Skills take years to master. For instance...tapping scope mounts into a barrel, you break a tap off in the barrel...oh spit...what next? Someone wants a trigger job and you get it wrong, if you catch it, you buy some new parts and start over...if you don't catch it and the weapons fires when it gets bumped and someone is injured...I don't even want to go there.
I would imagine that the Federal paperwork along with the insurance is going to take some time and need a constant customer base to keep that part of the overhead in check.
I can't remember ever going hunting and waiting to get to the lease to buy my ammo...
I'll bet this guy is doing back flips to be helpful in selling you this business, his customer base in a town of 1,000 doesn't sound too big.
You should examine his books and tax records for the last 3 to 5 years...
I think you are biting off more than you can chew, even if you think general sales will cover the overhead, breaking even is not making a living.

I'm not a pessimist...just an experienced optimist who ran his own business for the past 35 years...OS OK

izzyjoe

07-14-2016, 10:10 AM

From what I've read here, I get the same feeling as OS OK. You might want to really think this over, gunsmithing is not a real profitable business, you have to enjoy it. I was wanting to do the same thing, but money was the big factor for me, and if I put out the money how long would it take for me to break even, or even earn a check myself. I talked to my local gunsmith and told what I wanted to do, and he said he would be glad for me to open shop, cause he had enough work that was turning some away, but the more we talked I realized what he was getting at. Gunsmithing nowadays is even harder cause of the internet, somebody's breaks a gun then tries to play gunsmith there self, and then brings it to you at a last resort. And you have to learn to weed out kind of work, but it's hard to turn away work but sometimes you have to. I was thinking I could earn a living just cleaning guns, and mounting scopes, but most folks clean there own guns, and do most of the minior repairs themselves. But I would give it a good hard long look, and do a lot of research on his business and see if this is something you really want to do. And if you choose to do it I wish you all the luck!

Andy

07-14-2016, 10:35 AM

Thank you for all of the info guys, I really appreciate the responses. I definitely don't plan to be drilling and tapping scopes or any no-room-for-error jobs unless I am properly trained and practiced in them first. I know that I'm not a gunsmith or metalworker just because I came into some space and equipment, but I am a careful guy and can read and understand technical writing and follow instructions and I would like to learn to do this. I figure every conversation I'll be having with a customer is going to have to start with "I'm not a trained gunsmith..." for some years to come, and in the meantime I'm restricted to very low-risk tasks as I gain experience.

This would never pay if I was trying to do this as my only business and buying a storefront just for that, but the property pays for itself with the rental unit on it, the shop lets me expand my woodworking into a larger/better space, and the gun/metalworking stuff is already set up and ready to go so I feel like it is a low risk thing to try out. If I can make the gun side of things (truly) break even I suppose that really is enough for me as I am getting an improved woodworking space, a decent metalworking shop and keeping the last gun shop in town open as the perks from that break-even.

My break even point on whether to keep the gun store & gunsmithing side of things open and maintain an FFL would be $100/month in net income, and add another $50 to that for the value I place on the 100sf of retail space. So, if I can net $1800/year at a minimum this works out to me. Do you guys think I might reasonably be able to do that in my situation?

MrWolf

07-14-2016, 10:46 AM

Did you have a CPA review the books of the business or are you just paying FMV for the tooling? I am a CPA (retired from it now) and have seen clients burned when they did not listen and pay to have someone do the due diligence on the books. If you have someone do the review, get it in writing everything you expect them to do, etc. and have the invoice specify what they did. Really should have an engagement letter spell it all out. Old client bought a gym after many years of my telling him the taxes, books, etc. did not support what he wanted. He ended up buying a gym anyway and found out the cash is not there like the seller stated. Also be careful if you are buying his business are you assuming any of his liabilities including prior repairs, debts, etc? Best advise I can give is pay a few bucks for the attorney and CPA now versus major potential issues latter. Good points also on whether you have the expertise but you seem ok with basics covering the added costs and overhead.

OS OK

07-14-2016, 11:04 AM

Der Gebirgsjager

07-14-2016, 12:24 PM

Hi Andy, I'm a now-retired gunsmith and made my living solely in that occupation for a number of years. You've gotten some really good advice from the previous posters, and were I you I'd re-read it all carefully and sort through what does and doesn't apply to your individual case. I'm not going to advise you to- or not to- do what your are planning, but I'll be happy to add a few comments from my own experience for you to consider and see if they might apply to your situation.

First, a population base of 1,000 + tourists and seasonal hunters is a pretty small potential clientele on which to base a business. Where I was located the local population was only 500 and they seldom brought in any work. But where I made my living was being known for rebluing work, and I was the only one in the entire county that performed this service and it became 80% of my business. In one direction there was a town of about 8,000 population that was about 24 miles distant, and in the other direction there was a larger town of about 28,000. Folks would drive out to the country where my shop was located to bring me bluing work, which was kind of complementary. I don't mean the work was complementary (free), I mean that it was flattering to have them do so. I had, and still have, a large milling machine and lathe. The mill did allow me to do a couple of jobs that I otherwise would have had difficulty in doing, but the lathe got 98% of the metal work and I could have done without the mill. Just because of my location and the fact that I owned several acres on which my shop was located I never had much trouble with the governmental regulators, but you can't run a bluing business just anywhere because of the overflow from the tanks, etc. I had a front door that customers walked in, and about 10 ft. in front of them they were confronted by a counter which kept them out of the work area. Very important, that, because parts and tools will disappear if you let even people you trust behind the counter. In the front area I had an inventory of merchandise like you are proposing to do in which I invested about $6k. This was back in the 80s and things were a bit cheaper. I figured some good things to carry would be powder, primers, bullets, cleaning supplies, shooting glasses, ear muffs, etc. Mostly the stuff just sat there and gathered dust. Everything I sold came in via UPS, so I had to mark the prices my cost + shipping + a reasonable profit. More than once I was asked something like, "How come this can of powder costs $17.50 when I can get it in town (the big one) for $16.00?" The answer was what I just explained, plus that you can buy it here and have it immediately (convenience) and won't have to pay for the gas to and from town, about a 56 mile round trip. The answer would usually be something like, "Well, I've got to go to town next Tuesday anyway to pick up some chicken feed, so I"ll just wait and get it then." After about 5 years I discontinued the merchandise. Sold it all to myself at a loss, which helped my income taxes and got me a lifetime supply of certain items. The one thing besides actual gunsmithing that I can say was good money was dealing in used guns. I didn't carry anything like Ruger 10/22s that all the discount stores carried in town, but things like used Winchesters and Marlins, and to some extent military surplus guns were good sellers. I'd never pass up a good price on a broken or ugly used gun that was otherwise desirable, reblue and refinish it and put it out on the rack. Very often I could double my money on those items. But I seldom had a brand new gun of popular make in the sale rack because, just like the miscellaneous merchandise I couldn't compete with the "big box" stores that buy a box car load of any one model and send a few to each of their stores. I also did special orders and transfers, and made some money there. Although I came to do a great deal of rebluing work, I did do general repair work and it would be hard to say exactly what the main jobs were. Not much cleaning or refinishing of other people's gunstocks--those seemed to be jobs that they'd tackle themselves. I did do things like cut out new firing pins on the lathe, often for foreign made guns for which the parts weren't available; some drilling and taping for scope mounts and there was more than once when a customer had tried to do it himself and drilled the holes out of line and wanted me to make it work. As time permitted I built and sold a few custom hunting rifles. One of the local police departments decided to sell their confiscated/found firearms and I handled the sales and recorded the transactions for them (for a fee, of course). This worked into an annual event, advertised in the newspaper, items available for viewing in my shop and drop a sealed b id into a ballot box for an item you wanted, winners to be determined after a certain date. Brought in some traffic I wouldn't have had otherwise. I did a lot of action jobs on S&W revolvers. I lived on the same acreage, so when I was at home security wasn't much of a problem, but on those occasions when we left to drive into town to buy groceries it was a concern. When I was most active in the gunsmithing business it was still mostly a world of blue steel and walnut. Today that is changing with all the black plastic stocks and wonder coat finishes, not to mention stainless steel and endless accessorizing. I really don't know if I could make it today as a country gunsmith, and if I tried I'd take a different approach. I think that the key to success today is specializing in a certain area. There seem to be an awful lot of guys out there buiding 1911 pistols and AR-15 rifles of every conceivable configuration, so I'd look for an area of specialty not so crowded.

Best wishes, if you decide to go for it.

DG

Battis

07-14-2016, 01:37 PM

I see that you're in the "Northeast US". I live in northern MA and I cannot find a gunsmith. I've looked and asked and whatever but cannot find one. I've had a machinist friend do some minor work; otherwise I try it myself or just don't do it.
I did have a barrel relined by Bob Hoyt in PA - he's found a niche doing that.
Der Gebirgsjager had a great point about selling used firearms - that's the first thing I look for when I go into an out of the way shop. Antiques (cap and ball), military rifles, old ammo (I recently found an original magazine for my Winchester .351 Self Loader and some vintage ammo in a small NH shop), lead, powder. There's lots of old firearms in the Northeast - Kittery Trading Post in Maine seems to be the place they end up (James Julia for the high end items).
I have a few cap and ball revolvers with broken/frozen nipples in the cylinders - I'd like to find someone to drill them out properly. I have other antiques that need new mainsprings made from scratch. I recently came across a shotgun with a bulge in the barrel - I wouldn't know where to bring it to have the barrel cut down, or have the bulge removed.
The work is here.

Sur-shot

07-14-2016, 04:35 PM

Speaking of the NE you ever hear of Dick Riley of Hooksett, NH? Was the president of the NRA, a gunsmith, owned Riley's gunshop. I worked for Dick when I was in HS in the early 60s. I told Dick, when I asked for a part time job, that I wanted to be a gunsmith, he told me to go get an education, then get a real vocation, one that would make me a living and then, when and after I retired, be a gunsmith, but to never try to make a living working on guns. Dick was a man I respected and I also respected and valued his opinion. So 50 plus years later that is exactly what I am doing.

I just finished my brand new climate controlled 1800 sq ft gunsmith shop for me to "play" in. But it did not end with Dick, over the years I went and worked on my days off, in gunshops, learning how to build and refinish. I already knew how to sell stuff. Today I build custom rifles, handguns and shotguns. I also own a stock duplicator and build custom stocks. I also build such for our Special Operations troops, for the cost of parts only. My personal pay back for what they do.
Ed

bob208

07-14-2016, 04:47 PM

jobs change with the when I fist started working the gunsmith we did a lot of drilling and tapping altering bolts and sling swivels. quite a bit of trigger work too. now that the influx of cheap military rifles has dried up. it looks like putting on sights and scopes. along with fixing other peoples work. when I branched out into muzzloaders about every third one in the door was something stuck in the barrel.

dverna

07-14-2016, 04:52 PM

Do an asset purchase. Do not buy the business. That will shield you from past liabilities. Get an attorney and a CPA.

Whatever time you estimate to get to break-even, double it.

W.R.Buchanan

07-14-2016, 06:10 PM

Do an asset purchase. Do not buy the business. That will shield you from past liabilities. Get an attorney and a CPA.

Whatever time you estimate to get to break-even, double it.

Excellent advice!!!!! Your mark ups need to be 110-120% above total cost to either do the work, or obtain and sell the product.

You must completely adhere to these numbers religiously! On every job or sale. Anything less and you will go broke.

Also, you really need to be able to assess your relative skill level, and not trying to be negative here, but it sounds like you don't have any. This is a problem as any gunsmithing skill that requires machine work or competent hand work, is not something you just pick up by being shown how to do it on one or two cases. It takes literally years of doing these operations to become competent enough to get it right the first time, every time. Kind of the reason why people go to a gunsmith in the first place.

Anyone can bolt on a scope and have a decent chance of getting it right. You can bolt on piece parts of a dizzying array with no more skill than the ability to use an Allen Wrench. No body really needs a gunsmith for this type of work and working on your AR is kind of part of the deal. Like Working on your Volks Wagon was in the 60's and 70's.

I am a highly skilled machinist/toolmaker with 35 years experience. I sweat blood when tapping holes in the Receiver of one of my essentially junk guns!!!!

Just handling someone else's expensive gun gives me chills knowing that if I sit it down on a metal chip or bump it on something I cause damage I can't easily fix. And this responsibility is what stopped me from becoming a Gunsmith along time ago.

Once again I am not trying to be negative here, but rather show you some of the reality of the road you are looking at going down.

You need schooling from a real school, 2 years minimum! Then you need to work under some one who actually knows what they are doing after that.

Only then would I consider going into business in this capacity. You are also going to need about $100K to get you thru the first year or so, unless you are independently wealthy and don't need to work anymore. As a one man shop your overhead is not just the shop expenses, it is your total expenses to live work and eat. Most people don't consider these extra costs when looking at going into business. You will consider them when you pay the bills at the end of the month.

Randy

Mica_Hiebert

07-14-2016, 06:24 PM

My suggestion is to get your licenses squared away and buy the crappies beater truck guns you can in your area or off gun broker. Practis on those guns refurbishing them and doing gun smith work, trigger jobs, bedding, scope mount drilling/tapping muzzle breaks etc and sell them at enough profit to pay for your over head, then when you have the experience to work on customers guns with out ruining them I would open up for business.

Parson

07-15-2016, 08:53 AM

I did much the same, very short apprenticeship, some tool and die experience then self thought, it can work but if I had to do it over again I would pick a specialty and stick with it. I know more gunsmiths that got out of it for one reason, they got sick and tired of working on junk, dealing with public that knows almost nothing but demand everything will eventually burn you out

pietro

07-15-2016, 10:44 AM

I know more gunsmiths that got out of it for one reason, they got sick and tired of working on junk - dealing with public that knows almost nothing but demand everything will eventually burn you out

So true - The folks bringing in work are mostly not gun-savvy (workwise), and will not want to pay much for whatever job.

The other reason for not understanding how much a job will cost lies in perception - an expert makes what he's doing look easy, and everybody believes they're expert enough to do the job as easily, or better.

It's easy enough to rationalize away the perils of taking over a business, so please take the due diligence (CPA, lawyer, etc) before taking what could very well end up being a bath.

.

Ballistics in Scotland

07-15-2016, 11:56 AM

The problems have been very clearly set out by most people here. The business in small accessories without legal controls is has worsened considerably with the increase in e-shopping.

A lot depends on how much the premises will really earn their keep from your other business - and, of course, how much of your time and energy it takes. One reason gunsmiths have to charge more for their time than some customers like or understand, is that no matter how much time you can sell, you can't buy in any more stock of it. You have to beware of jobs you could happily do well for yourself as an amateur, who traditionally doesn't cost up his time, but which won't pay you enough per hour.Study books on gunsmithing, and some of the old ones, like Roy Dunlap, George Nonte, Harold E McFarland and Virgil Howe are among the best, because they are about improvising rather than buying expensive tools you will only use once, and a lot of the firearms they describe are now in the can't-get-parts bracket.

There are a couple of ways to do a good thing with facilities on the scale you describe. One is to find some specialized job you can do, and others aren't doing. That is how you pick up customers from far away. Study books, schematics, reloading catalogues, firearms patents... You might even find something of your own worth at least a cheap provisional patent via some simple system like http://www.patentwizard.com/ . This board and others will provide information on old or antique firearms for which some easily lost or broken part isn't available. You can't compete with a bigger firm on this, once they are actually doing it, but you can make things that sell in numbers too small for them.

Just for example if I was a professional gunsmith - which I'm not, not even a failed one - I would consult a firm like TJ's and see if they could tool up for a batch of barrel liners in the fast-twist 6mm. required for the many 6mm. Lee Navy rifles which have ruined bores,

Another - though it needs to be approached with caution - is to buy, repair or refinish and resell antique or collectible firearms. Some of these go cheap because they don't quite justify the work, but others do. Another is to find some kind of conversion job you know will find a market niche. To quote an example which no longer exists, Greener and after them Webley used to make the Greener GP, a very strong Martini-action single shot 12ga shotgun. But because few people in the UK shoot deer with slugs, they never made a cylinder bore version with a good receiver sight or low-power scope.

I mention as an example of something that should cause you hesitation, the conversion of shotguns into double rifles. This can be done successfully, and I am convinced there is a market, but you would have to be very sure of yourself on the score of safety. I believe I would rather lose a few fingers than be sued by someone who has.

A very useful way of getting known would be to become at least a local champion in some shooting sport. Well plenty of people want to... But benchresting, for example, cuts out a lot of the qualities it takes to be a brilliant shot. I have a friend who held the UK light varmint record with ten shots in about four inches at a thousand yards, on his own farm. It did him quite a bit of good in his business, which was principally in suppressors at that time, although he wasn't any kind of champion in quietening down firearms.

nekshot

07-15-2016, 03:02 PM

I have been watching this thread thinking how much I identify with you. I did not go the gunsmith for public route because I could not sleep at night if I messed up a fellas gun or if he thought I did. But I made a hobby out of it and I am boss and I don't care what anybody thinks of my work. My brother raced open wheel cars all his life and spent a lot of money but he is happy. I had a close friend(he died) who sold his 70,000 dollar drag strip car for 30,000 the other year and he was happy. Why, because these fellows chased a dream. I am chasing mine but for almost all of my investment I should get a greater return. If you could keep your cash flow on your regular work ability then go for it and to hang with the naysayers!

Andy

07-15-2016, 08:46 PM

I really appreciate all of the thoughts everyone is putting into their responses, that's what I love about this forum. Lots of really sound advice from trying to specialize in a certain task to ways to avoid competing with online/big store prices etc.

A few more details:
- I don't really want to say the numbers or anything but this property came at a very attractive price and the machinery and inventory were basically thrown in to sweeten the deal and make it financially feasible for us. It is adjacent to our land in a rural area so we wanted it with or without the equipment. So please don't worry that I'm paying too much, I feel like God really blessed us with this thing and both he and I are very happy about how it worked out.

- I shouldn't have said "I'm buying his business" because I realize now that was the wrong term. I am purchasing all of his business assets, he has closed his business, and I will be moving my woodworking business to his previous location and also running a small gun shop with the tools/equipment/inventory he has left for me. My goal in this post is to explore whether it is worth it to do that as a small side business and find out what the common jobs I might be likely to run into are.

To answer a few questions/points:
- I do mean that the retail area will only be about 100 sf, a 10'x10' area. I have an open shop plan and this would be a cordoned off area of that with displays/shelving in a boxed area with a retail counter barring entry into the shop (gated bench style). I intend my retail space to be a bare bones thing where I'm offering the items that aren't easy to order online, and other small accessories based only on the demand I see. Based on his experience I think I'm lucky if I average two 15 minute customers a day, when they walk in I greet them and work on something noiseless nearby while they are there.

-I hope to make money on transfers, occasional used gun sales (including using gunbroker to sell locally purchased items), ammo/powder/primer sales and gradually increase the role that gunsmithing plays in my income as I gain skills. Before I would stock regular accessories I would have to have a few people ask for them. A huge percentage of people shop online for that stuff now so I don't want to try to compete with amazon and midway where I can't.

- I will take the advice to get professional training seriously, I think that is sound wisdom. I am accustomed to turning away work if I cannot do it with perfect confidence in my woodworking business and I will apply that same logic here. I definitely am not going to be a hack job gunsmith, but I can clean guns, mount scopes, boresight and replace basic parts while I gain knowledge.

Given what I'm limiting myself to in size/scope of the business, do you guys think it is reasonable that I can hit my break-even point of $1800 net a year? Shop is already paid for/heat/electric by the woodworking. I just need $1800/year from the gunsmithing/gun store portion and this use of shop space and the direct costs of the gun side of things are then worth it to me.

sparky45

07-15-2016, 09:44 PM

Fantastic plan Andy, I wish you well.
S45

JonB_in_Glencoe

07-15-2016, 09:54 PM

I can't offer any business advice, but it seems others have that covered.
What I can offer is my experience as a customer.

I have brought plenty of work to gunsmiths in my area, Mostly action work on revolvers...lighter springs and a bit of polishing, so I'm told. Also, I've brought in several rifles to have the receivers D&T for scope mounts. My local smith doesn't have a specialty, and I learned the hard way, not to have him do anything outside his comfort zone...Yeah He has screwed up two of my guns. He paid for new parts on one gun and denied the breakage on another one...hard feelings followed that.

The last time I was there, I had him pillar bed a rifle and I asked him, what makes up most of his business. He said, mostly shotgun mods (Choke work, bedding actions, and installing recoil reducers). There is a lot of trap shooters in my area, and the recent craze of trap shooting in public High Schools (extracurricular) has brought him lots of new business.

Der Gebirgsjager

07-15-2016, 10:59 PM

I'll say a bit more, if you're not tired of hearing it. Yes, making $1,800 a year should be a snap. That's only $150 a month. If you drill and tap 4 scope mount holes at $20 each, mount a scope for $35, sell $50 profit worth of merchandise, order a $650 firearm for a customer for a 10% fee you're already at a total of $230--and that was easy, and you can probably do a lot better. Figure, though, that most jobs will cost you something in parts, material and time; so your $ 1,800 may entail rolling over $2,500. Remember that it takes money to make money, and you'll have to restock the merchandise you sell and replace the gunsmithing supplies that you use, be it sandpaper, drill bits, taps, whatever. But it will likely start slowly until word gets around that you are in the gun business. Your best advertising is "word of mouth" from satisfied customers, but a little formal advertising doesn't hurt either. It doesn't have to be expensive advertising, a lot of rural areas have "shopper" and "bargain" newspapers that run ads very inexpensively or even for free. If you do good work your business will grow, because there is always a market for good craftsmanship. Sadly, as another poster commented on, some "gun people" seem to be among the cheapest and most demanding on the planet, and one unhappy customer will always be out there telling anyone willing to listen what bad work you do and how you screwed up his gun, marriage, credit rating and drove him to alcoholism. So as you run across these folks you want to discourage them from patronizing your establishment with words like, "Oh, I don't work on those. They're just outside my field of interest. I couldn't get parts, and if I did they'd be super expensive. I'm booked solid, and I can't take any more work in right now. Too much on my plate." I'll bet that time and experience will cause you to think of things even more creative. Besides the counter dividing the retail area and work area you need to have a very prominent sign "Minimum Labor Charge $35.00" (or whatever seems right to you) and stick with it. I have known guys in the business that would not pick a customer's gun up off the counter unless they first had a $20.00 bill in their hand. There are a couple of ways of viewing that, but one of the ways is that if you go to a doctor or a dentist they don't examine you for free and just charge for the operation or filling, they get paid for the exam. When the customer brings the gun into your shop he had a pretty good idea of what is wrong with it or what it is that he wants done to it. Those that don't are quite willing to let you use your expertise in examining their gun and arrive at a diagnosis, tell them what is needed to fix it, and are then just as likely to say something like, "Well, I'll just take it back home" and turn around and leave and go try to fix it themselves, as they are to leave it in your shop for you to work on. Resist the temptation to be a "great guy" when you see an easy fix, just fix it right there on the counter in front of them, and hand it back and say "No charge." You'll get a reputation for doing free work and their buddies will start showing up expecting the same. You can try hard to always be pleasant and have a smile or grin and a new joke to tell, and you don't have to be a horse's posterior, but that $20 bill you just let walk out the door will never return, and it could have gone toward your $1,800 goal. Someone very famous once said, "A man can not serve two masters..." and I think that you're going to find that to be the case. If you put in the time on the gun business it will squeeze you out of the woodworking business. Like I said, it's almost certain to start slowly because you're starting at "0", but it will grow and become all you can handle and in a few years, probably very few, you'll be looking at a net of $35-50,000 per year. In reading over your posts I can see that you've got ideas, mostly good, on how to proceed and on ways to make money, and I believe that you'll do well. Best wishes.
DG

HollowPoint

07-16-2016, 09:51 AM

Although I have been self-employed for most of my adult life, I won't presume to give you any advise on your potential purchase of this side business. I suspect that in the back of your mind you've already run both the worst-case-scenerios and the best-case-scenerios multiple times.

I just wanted to wish you the best no matter what you decide. It may or may not be easy but, I think your plan; as you've described it, is doable. And I know that the really hard part is actually pulling the trigger on this purchase and seeing where it takes you.

HollowPoint

MrWolf

07-16-2016, 10:50 AM

Andy, sounds like you have it pretty much worked out and how you rephrased it makes more sense. Think of it as having to make $1,800 more a year in payments on something you really want. If the gun shop works, great. If not, still ok just figure another way to make $1,800 to pay for everything that you are getting or cut back on something else. You may even save that much in fees and discounts supporting your hobby. Seems a small price to me. Good luck.

Geezer in NH

07-16-2016, 12:18 PM

Get your LIABILITY Insurance before opening and do no work without it.

Ballistics in Scotland

07-16-2016, 04:03 PM

- I do mean that the retail area will only be about 100 sf, a 10'x10' area. I have an open shop plan and this would be a cordoned off area of that with displays/shelving in a boxed area with a retail counter barring entry into the shop (gated bench style).

Well that is a lot less claustrophobic than a 10x10 room, and people do like to see what is going on. Interrupt your work, possibly, but you have to balance that against getting them in there. If you find only a small trickle of people coming in, havye a coffee percolator on the counter.

It is good advice to be careful what work you accept, both because of the economics of time and tooling, and if you feel liable to foul up. But you should never lie about your reason for doing so. If you say "I just can't compete for that kind of work with somebody in.... ", or even "I really don't have the special skill that one needs", they might tell a friend or two. But if you say the parts aren't available, and they find out they are in the Brownells catalogue, a lot more than that may hear about it, and "You've got to admit he was honest" won't come into it.

Now there is another book worth having, and this time a cheap one: the Brownells print catalogue. Study it long-term, not just for what you might buy from it, but for tooling you can make up cheaply and well enough for using a few times.

HangFireW8

07-16-2016, 04:10 PM

Bread and butter work is:

Scope mounting
Fixing bad scope mounts
Butt pads/shorten/lengthen stocks
Jammed guns
Broken/missing part
Polish/reblue
Trigger jobs
Accuracy package (glass bed, crown, scope mount centered and trigger job)

Work is seasonal for hunters. If you work near a trap and skeet range better learn shotgun work.

Andy

07-16-2016, 07:55 PM

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses, I want everyone to know that I thoughtfully read each one even if I don't happen to mention it when I post again.

Der Gebirgsjager I want to say thanks for your lengthy (in a good way) responses, I know it takes time to write that info and I am reading every word of it. It being a small town where I know most people personally I think I have some risk of having an awkward situation if I fixed a problem quickly for a customer right in front of them from the "be a good guy" thing you mentioned, that is certainly a potential issue. With my woodworking business I avoid this by telling people I have a $50 minimum, and by never doing shop work right in front of a customer. If they insist on waiting I let them know that my insurance doesn't let me do work while there is a customer in the shop (true for my policy but also handy sometimes) and they can wait in the car if they really want to. People understand that better with power tools than hand work so I was thinking this will be a little more difficult to stick with when doing very simple gunsmithing tasks on a "right now" basis. I know how to price professionally but I could use advice on doing so in a friendly "small town" social manner with people you know, for quick jobs where they want to wait around I'm especially concerned about being able to stick to my policy with this. Any thoughts on that specific situation anyone?

Hollow point thanks for your good wishes, I can update that we're closing tuesday so we have pulled the trigger and are very excited. (Again property is a good purchase for us even if we don't do the gun shop part, so I don't want anyone to think I'm asking for advice after the fact).

Mr. Wolf that's a bit how I'm wanting to look at it, it is for example a very convenient add-on business given that I like the hobby so much myself. But for example the advertising/added insurance costs/retail space do need to make me some money or I could just get an FFL and drop those aspects and have most of the benefits without the cost. So, I very much agree in feeling but want to pencil it out business-wise and make sure it works.

Geezer in NH thanks for the tip. I actually just bound coverage for tuesday through the nra endorsed insurance through lockton. They were very helpful and much cheaper than other alternatives I looked into. As of tuesday I'm covered for the building, inventory, tools, premises liability and liability on any gunsmithing work I do, as well as a bunch of other situations that aren't worth detailing. It is a very good policy though and was only a bit more than insuring the building separately so I was quite impressed with them. If anyone needs an agent recommendation drop me a PM, I have been very happy with mine.

Ballistics in scotland thanks, I am a good internet shopper and my wife and I do everything we can online. I am definitely always 100% honest with customers. I feel like if the part is out there, I can find it whether it is ebay, numrichs, brownells midway or on a forum etc. so that is one of my strong points in business I think. I like finding old items online that others say are unavailable, whether it is for yard machines or something else so I think I have something to offer there to my clients.

Hangfire thanks for the list, that's a key part of what I was looking to hear from this thread. I feel like I have the skills to do the scope mounting, scope mount fixing, butt pad/stock LOP adjustment and broken/missing parts tasks fairly well currently, and would not be comfortable with most jammed guns, trigger jobs or accurizing. Those last three are work I would turn away at this point due to inexperience. Bluing/refinishing I would like to find a good place to send it out to, so that I can at least offer it to customers who don't want to shop for it themselves. If anyone has any recommendations on a good gun metal finishing business please drop me a line. I imagine someone on here does it but I haven't needed it personally so I'm not aware of who.

Thanks again everyone, I'll keep writing back as long as you do and want to say thanks for the advice and the encouragement.

targetshootr

07-17-2016, 09:54 PM

If the previous owner is available, I would ask him to work part time for you. Or maybe find a local machinist who you can take work to if you feel unsure about a project. Probably most important is to be dependable and then you'll never have to advertise. If you become covered up, take a small deposit and then call the customer when you're ready for his gun. Some of us wait years before seeing our guns again and we can lose interest by the time it makes it to the bench. Earlier this year I sent an N frame for a barrel and cylinder swap and it's been six months already for what I imagine is 2-3 hours work since no finishing is required. And I pre paid.

Ballistics in Scotland

07-18-2016, 06:46 AM

Letting a one-day job take a year gives you the time to have a lot of 2-3 hour barrel and cylinder jobs take a couple of days. The one-year man is likely to resent it less than every one of the latter owners will resent waiting a month.

Andy

07-18-2016, 09:33 AM

The previous owner is moving away and fully retiring unfortunately, so he's out of the picture other than phone calls.

I am a firm believer in running my businesses on a first-come-first-serve basis, within reason. In other words, I work on jobs in the order they come in unless there is a compelling customer-driven, economy of scale, or parts delay reason not to. Typically I would think I should never bump one customer ahead of another unless there was a significant situation ike a hunter on vacation with a broken sight/scope, or something of equal urgency.

Fortunately my woodworking schedule is usually highly flexible so these situations are unlikely to arise often unless something dramatic changes in both business plans.

Der Gebirgsjager

07-18-2016, 10:55 AM

Hi Andy, and thanks for your thanks. I think everyone here is wishing you well and sincerely trying to help. About the fix-it-while-you-wait thing, if you can, you should--because like I said about a slightly different angle the $20 won't come your way again if you let it go out the door. But there's a psychological angle to it. See, it's not like you don't deserve to be paid for fixing it even if it's what seems to you to be a ridiculously easy fix because the customer didn't know how to fix it and you did, but you don't want to do it in front of him because then he sees how easy it was and maybe becomes resentful. So you need to accept the gun, duck around the corner out of sight and do what needs to be done, then bring it back to the counter. Then the customer is both impressed and satisfied. Ahhh.... the mysteries of gunsmithing!

44man

07-18-2016, 02:09 PM

I am self taught. Been at it all my life but only a side line. To make money is to charge a lot. Don't bet the house on getting rich. It was like old TV repair men, charge 3X more. I also repaired TV's and radios and made a ton of money by charging less so word of mouth spread all over Ohio. I just did more jobs without cheating, 3X the work. I got TV's from across the state. Nothing to come home from work to see the garage filled. Not something you want to see with guns. A lightning strike I could fix for $25 cost $79 from the shop. Factor in gas to get parts and I still made money.
I learned to checker myself but you can lose your shirt with the time spent. I built custom, carved ML's and made stocks from planks. When someone pays $300 for a piece of wood for you to build a rifle, you will see fear and a ton of time. Then they want custom checkering.
Many good smiths today will price you to death. They have no other way to survive. I lost money on most jobs so I still do my friends work while they watch. I had a job other then my work ALWAYS. You suck dry sand instead of water if you want to live off a gunsmiths pay. You better know EVERYTHING.172516172518172519172521 some of my work.

44man

07-18-2016, 02:21 PM

Some more.172523172524 Better know a Ruger, Colt or S&W inside out. All rifles. You need to trouble shoot fast and have a fix with parts right now. Glass bedding the right way and pillar bedding. Fix a broken stock.
Don't give up your day job.

M-Tecs

07-18-2016, 02:32 PM

Since this is a side business you only need to take jobs you are comfortable with and have the time to do. Best money per effort is going to be FFL transfers. Next is used gun/consignment sales. Best way to build your FFL sales to do free FFL transfers for Duck Unlimited, Pheasants Forever and the various youth raffles that rural areas have.

44man

07-18-2016, 02:55 PM

Transfers are what? $25 to $35 and maybe a few a month. That will not support you. Paper work and records will eat you alive. When the feds come, everything better be perfect.
You make money by specializing and if you are good enough, charge top dollar. Make a mistake and you eat it.

M-Tecs

07-18-2016, 03:38 PM

I friend of mine has a one man shop in a rural town of 1,700. He has done over 500 transfers per year for the past 6 years. Anytime you take a customers firearm in for over night you have to enter it into the bound book. Can't get away from the paper work. No 4473 required on repairs but the 4473 only takes a couple of minutes on a transfer. He charges $25.00 a transfer but it is rare that the customer doesn't purchase something else like scope mounts or ammo. A large percentage of the transfers involve purchasing and mounting a scope/mounts or ammo.

He does free transfers for all the banquet's in the area but he does get a free meal and entrance to the banquet for his efforts. He has taken 95% of the transfer from the local hardware store simply because he is seen supporting the local event. The hardware store owner doesn't attend any of the local events either as a member or an FFL.

He doesn't get more specialized than glass bedding and tapping holes.

Andy

07-18-2016, 08:38 PM

gebirgsjager I had a similar thought on that too, not sure if my shop layout can let me have an out-of-sight area but I certainly can see the reason for one in the situation you mentioned. Any way you cut it I know I'll be doing simple jobs free/cheap/trade (as they do for me with their areas of expertise) for friends, but how to handle a simple job with an "acquaintance" is my exact weak spot I think.

44man, that's some beautiful carving on what looks like a curly maple stock, the effort that went into that is not lost on me, very amazing craftsmanship there.

M-tech thank you for that info, I would love to have even 10% of your friends transfers a year I think, if I can get anywhere near him I'll consider myself "having it made". Sure they will take time but I need more billable time in my work week not less so I'm ready for that part of it. No matter how you slice it transfers are a direct time = money situation so unless I'm turning away more lucrative work (unlikely for me) I am happy to do as many as possible and hope to have a business like your friend's where that works out. Good idea in terms of connecting with local shops and raffles/banquets, your mention of that gave me a few ideas of who to talk to right off the bat in the area. Anything that helps kids get into the sport is on my priority list of things to support. They are the country's insurance policy on gun rights.

44man

07-18-2016, 09:27 PM

You sound like a good man and might do alright so don't let me sour you.
Working with wood might be the most challenging and I have stared at many planks or pre cut stocks for a long time. I made all my ML's from curly maple planks and the Swede I showed was from a cherry tree that fell in my woods. The Enfield was a friends original military stock.
I also made my own patch boxes from brass sheet and all the other parts except the trigger guard and butt plate.
Just set your mind to what you want to do.

Geezer in NH

07-18-2016, 11:16 PM

Working without the insurance may hurt you badly. Unless you want to hurt your wife and family.

I am retired from a Manufacturing FFL.
\
At best in the years the shop was open I made 10K after costs. That included transfer fee's, and used gun profits. New guns good luck, ammo sales also good luck. Wally world and others will make selling ammo retail a loss.

Customers are very fickle. No experience working on fire arms you IMHO are in fantasy land. Like guns to play with trust me in less than 2 years you will hate them.

Lets stop the fantasy I have been there and back. You will loose what you put in originally and possibly way more than you ever thought.

Talk to a good money consultant first. The rule is in a gun shop to come out with a million bucks in 2-3 years you must put in 2 million

This is a gun lovers forum but Bossiness is Business sorry to bust a bubble just trying to save you grief and a Marriage maybe. BTDT

his

waksupi

07-18-2016, 11:35 PM

As a full time builder, I will suggest you start collecting recipes for beans and rice. It's a tough business, especially since the young pups are playing with black rifles.

44man

07-19-2016, 09:54 AM

I became fast friends with one of the best smiths in the area, Charlie Crum after he seen what I could do. His knowledge of every gun is astounding but he has bad health problems and if not for the VA, he would not be here. Due to health he has a back log that he never gets to. He lives on pauper amounts.
I go in for a part and he will open a drawer for the gun and find a part most of the time or will tell me where to find one. He will charge me what the Gun Parts catalog says. I usually give him more.
If you specialize with one thing, you will be better off. Better be real good at it too.
Be Baker at Freedom, $100 for a trigger spring change and you pay postage each way. I made a new spring for a friend for a bottle. Most complicated revolver on earth with parts that fail.
What would you do if you pushed the hammer with your thumb and see the firing pin come out on a 97 or 83? One has a hammer block, the other a transfer bar. Send it back and pay through the nose.
Best pistol smiths charge a lot but stand behind their work. Any gun sent back or returned cuts your profits.
I remember a lifetime ago when I loaded paper shotgun shells. Neighbor wanted a bunch. He stored in a fruit cellar with about 100% humidity. Paper swelled so they would not chamber so he blamed me. Biting the bullet can kill you.

HangFireW8

07-19-2016, 06:56 PM

M-Tecs

07-19-2016, 07:55 PM

Ammo sales vary by location. At my friends shop it's 78 miles one way to Walmart or a major sporting goods store. It's his shop or the small town hardware store. He started doing light gunsmith and FFL transfer out of his home. He moved into a retail store front several years ago and is doing very well. His only really specialization is doing all FFL transfers free of all the banquets in a 60 mile radius. He gets a significant amount of sales from attending these events.

44man

07-20-2016, 11:02 AM

You take care of shooters but in the end you need to feed your family and pay the mortgage and gas, electric bills. Those thousands of bills that come in.
I can afford to help shooters free since I owe nothing. But you need to earn a living. I get along with SS now since I have no debt. Still a lot of bills to pay but I need no credit. I buy with a card but it is paid in full each month so there is no interest. We have one card, Cabela's Visa with over $200 in points. I need to get some free stuff.
The best thing anyone can do is pay off the house and never run up bills. Pay cash.

ulav8r

07-23-2016, 04:55 PM

Concerning doing walk-ins while they wait, it the work is done out of sight of the customer, do not have anything of value in the waiting area within reach. One dishonest customer could wipe out the profit from 50 others.

Ballistics in Scotland

07-24-2016, 05:32 AM

It's a gun shop, even if only a small one. A camera, even a dummy or one that isn't connected to anyone, shouldn't strike anyone as too much like Big Brother watching them.

Andy

07-24-2016, 08:54 AM

Thanks again for the responses everyone, was working outside all day for a few days and didn't get to write back until now.

44 man: That's pretty cool that you made the brass parts yourself, that had to take some work. I have been thinking a lot about specializing, as you mentioned in your second post. If I can develop a niche area and focus myself on that for a few years until I am top notch in that, and conduct business by internet/mail for the niche, I think that could be a great augmentation to this business.

Geezer: I already have insurance that covers me for gunsmithing liability. I don't plan to do anything someone would consider risky until I am trained, but I have it nonetheless. I would be happy to make half of what you did each year from this, as this is a side business for me. I don't think it is a fantasy to think I can make a little bit of side money from this and enjoy it in the process. I sure want to try it out and would like any advice you have on what jobs you feel are profitable for someone in my situation/with my skill level. I would agree with you that if I was trying to make a living off this business alone or trying to do difficult gunsmithing tasks without training I would be in fantasy land, but that is not what I am doing here.

Waksupi: I think you make a very valid point in mentioning how much of the gun trade is in newer more modular firearms, of the type that demand much less need for a gunsmith. I imagine the current crop of guns from the last 20-30 years alone has made this trade much harder to make a living in, as I would think each gun owner needs much less gunsmithing in his life now than he would have 50 years ago.

I second the idea on cameras, I think the margins are too small and the "pocketable size" items too pricey to not have some sort of theft deterrent in the store. I think I would either have cameras or just wait at the counter using the computer while someone is browsing. I would like to avoid doing a quick walk-in job while someone waits at the counter for a number of reasons and this is one of them.

lightload

07-25-2016, 08:39 PM

Andy

07-25-2016, 09:15 PM

lightload thanks very much for that thought, I would really appreciate knowing which guns are a "pandora's box" to get into so that I can avoid them or approach them very cautiously

Ballistics in Scotland

07-26-2016, 04:29 AM

Perhaps some can advise you on guns to avoid--either because they are a nightmare to dis and reassemble or because parts are not available. The old H&R revolver line requires 3 hands to work on. Remington's Nylon 66 can be tough to reassemble. Browning BLR lever rifles and the BPS pump can be challenging to work on. If you look at the various rifles, pistols, and shotguns imported into this country in the last 40 years, you have a large number of different firearms with few or zero parts available.

What do our retired and active gunsmiths suggest about maintaining a parts inventory? Looking at Brownell's catalogue, I see that parts have become extremely high. I suspect more than one gunsmith has put money into a clunker that the owner refuses to pick up.

I can't retire from professional gunsmithing, because I have never been in it. But the Brownells print catalogue (much better than the online version to browse for ideas in) gives both the retail price and a coded trade price, so that your customers won't know it. They used to give me that price just because I was overseas I think. I don't have a copy now, but it was something quite simple - a letter W instead of a decimal point if memory serves me correctly.

Brownells also offer their own four-volume set of books, "Gunsmith Kinks". I don't own them, and go only by hearsay, much of it from Brownells themselves, who pledge their word that it has much information on how to deal with specific guns. In fact they say the books are tremendously good, but as they are intended to sell other things which form their main business, I doubt if that is far out. The early volumes are by the late Bob Brownell, and probably quite dated, but so are a lot of firearms designs.

I knew a very experienced and sensible American enthusiast who didn't like Bob Brownell, because he found his jokes excessively ribald. But probably you can handle that.

I doubt if someone on the scale envisaged here can afford to maintain a parts inventory just on the chance that the guns will walk in. It can probably be profitable for the breakable parts of firearms known to be popular in your area, but otherwise knowing fast and reliable sources is more useful.

If you have an idea for some device of your own, it is a good idea to look into manufacturing processes and contractors who provide them. For example just about anything can now be made by lost wax casting in steel. You can get a scope mount in the form of a quarter rib for the Ruger No1, but there could be an opening for other scope mount systems in the common Shilen and Douglas barrel contours. I've got a block of D-2 air hardening steel in which I had a rectangular mortice spark eroded, and someday I will it into a stronger receiver to accommodate Cadet Martini internals.

fjruple

07-26-2016, 06:28 AM

I have found this thread to be very interesting and informative much of it very true. I have been a licensed gunsmith since 1972. I got into the business as a back up to my full time occupation in event I was lay-off so there would be a seamless transition in cash flow until another full time job can be found. It has worked out well for me. Four basic items that you most do are: Proper firearms licensing at all level of government; a local propriety variance on your place of business, a good business attorney and insurance. I've incorporated the business as a LLC in Delaware and a foreign company here locally to protect my family and propriety from lawsuits. As far as business, run it as a business and not a hobby. I believe someone here has already said it after two years you will be sick at looking at guns. Define find your market! And keep attuned to the changes. Back in the 80's and 90's, I specialized in National Match M1s, M14(M1A), and M1911A1s. That market has changed to AR platforms, I had to change with it. The business is constantly changing and you will have to say attuned to those changes. Try to specialize and be good at it!! For example specializing in anodizing AR uppers and lowers, or gunsmithing specific models of popular guns that are no longer serviced by the major manufacturers, or specialize in making firing pins, and today there seems to be a market for experienced revolversmiths. Learn to say no, Nicely! Often you will get the guy with the $50.00 rifle who wants to get a new barrel made and installed for $25.00!! Be honest with him and give the real cost. If still wants it fixed, tell he will have to pay for the parts up front there is nothing like being stuck with a $50.00 rifle with a $200.00 bill if he does not come back for the gun.

As far as training, I started out as an apprentice to a gunsmith in Germany. But I found many of the learned skills can be obtained from local courses in machining, welding, and wood working at your local community college. While the application of these skills are not specific to the gun trade they can help you out in your business. I even took a class on metal casting at an art class just to learn the art of metal casting if I had to made any parts that did not requiring forging. Gunsmithing is a trade that you will never learn it all, you will learn something new everyday. Join the American Gunsmith Association and start a reference library; old TM and FMs, Gun parts (Numrich) catalogues, Old Brownells catalogues are helpful. Go digital if you can.

Good luck in your business endeavor and don't be afraid of failure, we humans learn from our mistakes and errors.

--fjruple

nekshot

07-28-2016, 02:53 PM

I have enjoyed this thread and all the excellent info given. As I was following the thread I could not help but think how much knowledge we lost when Goodsteel moved on. Fellas like him and his willingness to share with us wannabees are hard to find.

Kestrel4k

07-28-2016, 08:56 PM

Just a few comments - my only area of expertise is giving my local gunsmith a fair bit of business. :oops: One reason he does better than the other gunsmiths in the area is that between his own machining abilities and a machinist associate, he has much more capability than other local shops. He has 'open hours' 3 days a week, and is closed for the two other days so he can concentrate on gunsmithing. Many folks only want to drop by & chat, so this sort of schedule permits both aspects to exist in relative harmony.

Growth opportunities that I can see; barrel threading due to the vast increase in suppressor sales; the associated thread protectors are best sourced from ebay @ $8-$10 ea (and even cheaper in bulk) - my LGS says he can't even begin to match those wholesale prices.

Also, with many potentially-accurate new rifles being shipped with accuracy-robbing flexible plastic stocks (Savage comes to mind), I would think that doing action bedding into Boyd's laminate stocks (their product line is quite affordable with good performance for the money) could be good bread & butter work.

Another thing that some folks seem to like is service bundling: they might be dissatisfied with the accuracy of their new mass-produced lower-grade rifle, so offering a basic accurization package such as bedding, crown, trigger, etc; may make your service time more efficient - compared to smaller individual jobs where you spend as much time with (uncompensated) handling/customer service as in the billable work.

With the increasingly-popular Ruger 77/xx series, bolt shimming to tighten up their variable headspace is easy money - fast, effective, and very inexpensive to do on your end.

Just to kick around a few ideas from a customers' perspective ...

HangFireW8

07-29-2016, 03:38 PM

Kestral brings up a good point. You can offer a safety check bundle for $25, which will quickly pay for the headspace gages required. I think I already mentioned the accuracy package (crown, trigger job, glass bed and align scope).

Geezer in NH

07-29-2016, 03:50 PM

New EO from Zero, Get a Manufacture's license and pay your ITAR fee before anything.

weaselfire

08-01-2016, 08:33 AM

Yes you can net $1,800 a year. As a woodworker, you could net that just doing custom grip panels for 1911s.

Ask the guy you're buying from what the mist common jobs are. Locally, scope work, sighting and hunters going out tomorrow suddenly figuring out their deer rifle won't fire. General Smith's will do almost everything. Your market locally isn't large enough to specialize much.

You're not going to do a two year resident gunsmith school, even if you could get accepted or afford it. Go to the American Gunsmith Institute and get their free introductory package. Their basic gunsmith course will fit your needs and the knowledge you gain is invaluable.

Gunsmithing is a skill and, like woodworking, needs hands on practice to perfect. Combined with the AGI knowledge, you'll start feeling confident in about two decades. :)

Get over not knowing anything. Very few gunsmiths knew what they were doing when they started. But once you understand how firearms are designed and how the parts work, you can figure out any of them.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

lightload

08-01-2016, 07:10 PM

You might offer a good deal to the local police or sheriff departments and clean and inspect their weapons for a nominal fee. Not related to this suggestion is another thought.

When working on a $2000 shotgun, a mistake might cost you a lot of money and a lot of hard feelings. But the same mistake on a Mossberg pump will still make the owner mad even if the cost to you is not terribly high. So I think that if I were you, I would consider having one price for putting a recoil pad on a Mossberg and a higher price for putting one on Browning or Beretta. The higher price would pay for the extra time that might be needed.

I agree that gun owners are picky and as a rule wish not to pay much for repairs. The funny thing is that the same guy who will pay a lawn mower mechanic $125 for a small repair will holler and scream for paying a trained gun smith the same hourly rate.

Another activity that will eat up your time is ordering parts. First they have to be located, and if they are mis-identified either on your end or the vendor's end, you have lost even more time. Too, ordering them one at a time will mean that the postage(likely high)can be a significant part of the item's cost

GOPHER SLAYER

08-01-2016, 09:36 PM

I have some very sound advice. Don't do it. I gave a friend that advice and he bought the gun shop anyway. He had a good location here in Southern California but it didn't take long for him to hate to go to the shop. Too many people coming in just to talk guns. I think he closed in less than two years and he was making money. If you make friends with the customers they will expect some freebies but if you charge them then you are no longer friends. I can go on but I suspect you will go ahead with your plan to have a gun shop. If you do go forward you must remember that this is not a hobby, it is a business. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

cold1

08-01-2016, 10:56 PM

Value your time, specialize in a few areas, dont be afraid to turn down work.

I am not a gunsmith nor do I own a business. I have specialized in a very specific form of refrigeration in a very niche market. I do work for a business entity because I dont want to put in the 60-80hrs a week that being a business owner requires. With all of that being said:

Value your time: The people are coming to you for a reason, they dont want to do it or they dont know how to do it. They come to you because you do. Charge accordingly. You have the knowledge, tools, time, talent etc.. whatever you have they dont. Take your time and do it better than anyone else. Charge more to fix someone elses mistake. Dont be a butt about it, but let them know that it takes extra to "fix" something that shouldnt be "broken".

Specialize in a few areas: I dont know enough about gunsmithing so I can suggest which areas to even look at. I can tell you about my industry and why I specialized. Most folks get into HVAC then 1 or 2 people fall into refrigeration, then maybe 1 or 2 out of those 1000s in refrigeration end up specializing even more. Everybody and there brother "knows somebody that does HVAC" on the side so competition on repairs and installations are cut throat. I would equate that with the AR platform in the gunsmithing world. With the actual refrigeration there is not as much demand, but there is also not many people that "do it on the side". It is a different world from HVAC and not too many people can make the switch. it requires a deeper understanding of the refrigeration cycle, different gasses, different equipment, etc.... These guys get good to great money and the only competition is from other companies that are licensed like them. I would equate this to a really great, established gunsmith. Then there are people like me that have taken it one step further and have specialized in one particular field (Ultralow temp and cryogenics) I am not good with the everyday run of the mill HVAC systems, I can hold my own in "regular" refrigeration, but I excel at my particular field. I think in terms of my field, my equipment is setup for my field, my knowledge is specialized for my field. It is a niche market, but my name is known to all of the major manufacturers and we have a great working relationship with each other. There is no real competition in my area, I know the other people in the area that do it and we know each others strength and weaknesses. We routinely send work to each other for various reasons. I would equate this with the gunsmith that only does one or two things but does them better than anybody else.

Dont be afraid to turn down work: Since you have already stated that the gunsmithing will be a side business and not your main income, turn down the work that is not going to pay you enough. I turn down work all the time because people want me to do "just enough to keep it going". That is not how I work, you pay me a premium and you get premium work in return. If you do not like my estimate, then there are plenty of "hacks" out there that will take your money and give you what you want. You can then bad mouth them, not me. Of course i put it in nicer words but that is the gist of it.

Lastly there is what I call "stupid money". If its a job I dont want or a customer i dont like to work for, I price the job stupidly high. If they are stupid enough to pay, then its high enough that I would be stupid to turn it down.

Andy

08-01-2016, 11:37 PM

Thanks for the continued thoughts everyone, there aren't many posts in this thread that haven't been helpful to me in one way or another, even if it is just to approach something cautiously.

Many of the posts have made a good case to work toward a niche specialization and that does seem like sound wisdom. I will have to mull over what that could be for me, there certainly are a lot of options.

There are a few people who have written posts that I believe are genuinely meant to be helpful, but are somewhat negative along the likes of "don't do this for any reason, all that will happen is you will lose money and/or hate it..." sort of thing. If you're one of those guys I would ask that you please go back and read all my responses and make sure you understand the situation I am in (this being a side business) and the questions I am asking. I appreciate your input but if the advice is always not to do it then there wouldn't be any gun stores. We have already purchased the place and will be opening it back up in the coming months so whether or not to do it is not an issue, how to do it successfully is. Please give me advice on that, that's what I'm looking for.

On a slightly different topic, what do you guys think are some simple metalworking tasks that can be done on lathe/mill that can make money in a rural area? Any specific fields or professions worth advertising to? It seems like in woodworking there is at least a time or two a year where I would gladly pay $50 for some part I need today to get a key thing done (even if it is a $10 thing online) and I can see from the limited training the owner gave me that a good bit of those things are easy tasks I could do in an hour or less on the lathe or mill.

For example I kept breaking these special $20 countersink bits I needed to use on some ipe flooring a year or two ago. The gentleman I bought the shop from modified a different countersink I had to a better design and that has lasted longer than 4 or 5 of the $20 flawed design ones would have. That part was easily worth $50 to me but it only took him 5 minutes to do. I would like to make sure people know my business as a place to get those kind of non-gunsmithing problems solved as well so any thoughts on that are appreciated.

shoot-n-lead

08-02-2016, 12:07 AM

Excellent advice!!!!! Your mark ups need to be 110-120% above total cost to either do the work, or obtain and sell the product.

You must completely adhere to these numbers religiously! On every job or sale. Anything less and you will go broke.

Also, you really need to be able to assess your relative skill level, and not trying to be negative here, but it sounds like you don't have any. This is a problem as any gunsmithing skill that requires machine work or competent hand work, is not something you just pick up by being shown how to do it on one or two cases. It takes literally years of doing these operations to become competent enough to get it right the first time, every time. Kind of the reason why people go to a gunsmith in the first place.

Anyone can bolt on a scope and have a decent chance of getting it right. You can bolt on piece parts of a dizzying array with no more skill than the ability to use an Allen Wrench. No body really needs a gunsmith for this type of work and working on your AR is kind of part of the deal. Like Working on your Volks Wagon was in the 60's and 70's.

I am a highly skilled machinist/toolmaker with 35 years experience. I sweat blood when tapping holes in the Receiver of one of my essentially junk guns!!!!

Just handling someone else's expensive gun gives me chills knowing that if I sit it down on a metal chip or bump it on something I cause damage I can't easily fix. And this responsibility is what stopped me from becoming a Gunsmith along time ago.

Once again I am not trying to be negative here, but rather show you some of the reality of the road you are looking at going down.

You need schooling from a real school, 2 years minimum! Then you need to work under some one who actually knows what they are doing after that.

Only then would I consider going into business in this capacity. You are also going to need about $100K to get you thru the first year or so, unless you are independently wealthy and don't need to work anymore. As a one man shop your overhead is not just the shop expenses, it is your total expenses to live work and eat. Most people don't consider these extra costs when looking at going into business. You will consider them when you pay the bills at the end of the month.

Randy

Did you read the part where he said that he was not depending on this for his living?

doc1876

08-03-2016, 06:34 AM

Did you see that obummer just signed a new law requiring gunsmiths to have a $2500 a yea licence???
Type 07FFL must register for ITAR 22CFR 122.1

KenH

08-03-2016, 03:51 PM

Geezer mentioned that in post (edit to correct) #69, and I was getting to the $2250 (or is it $2500/yr?) license cost. There is almost nothing you can do that's not required under that darn executive order he signed....... and I'm VERY scared it's going to get worse with Hillary!!!

Here's a link to the info mentioned:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/featured/fed-itar-registration-for-gunsmiths/

Down toward bottom is the scary stuff (bold 'n underline for emphasis: "For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register."

Geezer in NH

08-05-2016, 08:02 AM

ITAR has always been required for an 07 manufacture.

The BATF many years ago added bluing and other steps in gun smithing as manufacturing. Obozo's EO was not the start or solution as any other of his Eo's IMHO.

weaselfire

08-05-2016, 09:26 AM

weaselfire

08-05-2016, 09:32 AM

Now, to all those that recommend not becoming a gunsmith because you can't earn any money. Thousands of gunsmiths are making a decent living already and thousands more join the field every year. There are plenty who fail, but it's not the business of gunsmithing that makes them fail. Plenty of small businesses, about 90% currently, fail in the first year. Of ALL businesses in all fields. Not a reason to not open a gunsmithing shop.

The OP asks about what jobs he can do in his area and nobody on the internet, unless they are in that area, can provide the answer. He'll need to do the research in his area for his business goals. That's part of being in the 10% that succeed.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Ballistics in Scotland

08-05-2016, 10:03 AM

Lastly there is what I call "stupid money". If its a job I dont want or a customer i dont like to work for, I price the job stupidly high. If they are stupid enough to pay, then its high enough that I would be stupid to turn it down.

Your advice is mostly good, but people don't get together and discuss their specialised refrigeration jobs with other specialised refrigeration enthusiasts. Let a customer find a gunsmith, even a desperately hungry gunsmith, who does that job for a quarter of the price you named - or would have done it for a quarter what he did pay you - and you might as well rent a billboard to publicise it.

JonB_in_Glencoe

08-05-2016, 10:37 AM

"On a slightly different topic, what do you guys think are some simple metalworking tasks that can be done on lathe/mill that can make money in a rural area? Any specific fields or professions worth advertising to? It seems like in woodworking there is at least a time or two a year where I would gladly pay $50 for some part I need today to get a key thing done (even if it is a $10 thing online) and I can see from the limited training the owner gave me that a good bit of those things are easy tasks I could do in an hour or less on the lathe or mill."
Andy,
That is a great idea you've thought of. You should try to visit with local manufacturers, especially if they are making steel items, if there are any in your area? and make personal contacts.
I have worked in the industrial electrical manufacturing industry for several different manufacturers all my adult life(30+ yrs). There is always a division of teh company that makes sheetmetal partsand maybe machined parts as well for the final product. They frequently need specialized steel parts, even if they can make the items themselves, they'll get busy and won't have time to make the parts themselves...it happens all the time. Some are as simple as a custom milled bushing that fits a metric hole and a SAE size shaft. There is BIG money if you can deliver quickly. It's all about making personal contacts, so they think about you, when they need those parts, and generally, they need the parts "same day".

in regards to this...

"There are a few people who have written posts that I believe are genuinely meant to be helpful, but are somewhat negative along the likes of "don't do this for any reason, all that will happen is you will lose money and/or hate it..." sort of thing."
I'm sorry, but those type of comments are the nature of any internet forum...just ignore them if they aren't helpful to your situation, everyone will be happier in the long run.

cold1

08-05-2016, 09:50 PM

Your advice is mostly good, but people don't get together and discuss their specialised refrigeration jobs with other specialised refrigeration enthusiasts. Let a customer find a gunsmith, even a desperately hungry gunsmith, who does that job for a quarter of the price you named - or would have done it for a quarter what he did pay you - and you might as well rent a billboard to publicise it.

Yes they do. Our customer base is very close nit and they do compare cost and services. There has been times that even when I price the job stupidly high, they took it and did not complain.

We have had desperately hungry refrigeration guys try to break into the business for a quarter of what the professionals charge. They get a few customers to bite, usually the ones that are a pain to deal with or the ones that just want it done cheap. 99% of the time they screw the pooch and the customer ends up calling a pro and paying more because the pro has to fix what someone else screwed up.

I am not saying this to imply your statement is wrong, I guess I am looking at it from someone that is established in the business and can afford to turn away a customer. Sometimes it is cheaper in the long run to turn away that PITA customer or job because you know that one way or the other you will loose your butt on that job.

No offence meant by the rebuttal, just clarifying from a different point of view.

doc1876

08-07-2016, 09:12 AM

First, it's not an executive order. It's a clarification letter from DDTC, the Department of State. Any 06/07 FFL might have needed to register prior to this, what changes is that some functions that BATFE did not classify as needing a manufacturer's FFL may now be included.

There are a lot of gunsmith functions that do not require ITAR registration. There is a ton of incorrect information on gun forums. Get your facts, talk to the agencies for clarification and, if needed, consult a lawyer.

Jeff

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I just was sharing the information that was give me by one of the better gunsmiths around. This is what he has been told to keep his business open. If this is wrong, and I hope it is, then good. if not I wanted to pass along the information for him to be aware of.

ON another note, I don't see this subject in post #67..........

doc1876

08-08-2016, 05:00 PM

http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-obama-signs-new-gun-control-executive-order-puts-gunsmiths-out-of-business/?utm_source=ConAm

Geezer in NH

08-08-2016, 06:24 PM

Look at the ITAR lists. Make a machine screw you are liable for the ITAR fee as it is considered as being used in a weapon. BTDT pay to play is the name of this. don't it will be a Federal charge.

weaselfire

08-09-2016, 05:46 PM

http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-obama-signs-new-gun-control-executive-order-puts-gunsmiths-out-of-business/?utm_source=ConAm

Yep. 'Cause if it's on the internet, it has to be true.

Now hit the source:

https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/itar.html
https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/

And there is nothing that turns making a machine screw into performing manufacturing on an ordinance item.

For the OP, you may or may not need to deal with ITAR. But you're going to need to go through BATFE to get the FFL first. Talk to your local field office and get some guidance from them on what you may or may not need.

Jeff

sparky45

08-09-2016, 07:48 PM

Oh, to be as naive as the weasel. Can't you see this is ALL subject to interpretation? When they get the order (not law) to tighten the "screws" guess what happens; you find yourself in a court trying to defend yourself against a unwritten law. Happens all the time with the likes of the EPA, IRS, ect.

KenH

08-10-2016, 10:38 AM

ON another note, I don't see this subject in post #67..........

Doc, you are correct, #67 was a typo on my part, the correct number is #69. I've edited my post to reflect this.

Folks, if you go to this link to read a PDF file issued by US Dept of State you will find the named concerns on page 3.

https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/documents/ITARRegReqFirearmsManufacturers.pdf

2. Registration Required – Manufacturing: In response to questions from persons engagedin the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration isrequired because the following activities meet the ordinary, contemporary, commonmeaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:

a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability of assembled or repaired firearms;

b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;

c) The production of firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks,cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);

d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or reloading of ammunition;

e) The machining or cutting of firearms, e.g., threading of muzzles or muzzle brake installation requiring machining, that results in an enhanced capability;

f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;

g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and

h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.

Note items how many things are considered day to day gunsmithing chores.

Also, this link says a gunsmith doing only "one occasion" requires registrating:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=55a455b1ea3229e407bcaa52a922a609&mc=true&node=se22.1.122_11&rgn=div8

122.1 Registration requirements........ For the purpose of this subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of manufacturing or exporting or temporarily importing a defense article or furnishing a defense service. A manufacturer who does not engage in exporting must nevertheless register.....

Ken H>