Blessings are Earned

[claude]

This is prompted by a beautiful witness I was privileged to see today.

Many of us have heard in one form or another a person say,"well God never does anything for me" and my mind asks, "well, what have you done for Him?" Have you told Him you love Him? Have you thanked Him for His blessings? Do you realise that everything we have comes from Him? It is always a good opportunity to drop a few seeds and see if any sprout.

Some might find this controversial, but blessings are not contingent upon salvation, but works, case in point;

Deuteronomy 28:1-3King James Version (KJV)
28 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.

3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.


These people were not yet saved, but were promised blessing for doing, in this instance hearkening diligently.

Christ had not yet come, the blood ordinances were yet in effect, they couldn't be saved until Christ made His sacrifice and while in the tomb went back and preached to them.

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

But it is works which garner blessing;


Proverbs 10:5-7King James Version (KJV) 5 He that gathereth in summer is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest is a son that causeth shame.

6 Blessings are upon the head of the just: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.

7 The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.

Gathering is work, and the worker is blessed, the sluggard.......not so much. (this has no reference to the disabled, works can be as simple as a smile or a good word to someone who is down.)

In fact works are the only things we can take with us when we move on;



Revelation 19:7-8
7 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/19-7.htm)Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 (http://biblehub.com/revelation/19-8.htm)And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Righteous acts are works, we are blessed for them now, they are our garments later.

I know this barely touches the surface of the subject, but I'm going to stop here before it gets tedious or boring. Enjoy your evening gentlemen!!

[Blackwater]

Thanks, Claude, for a very important post. I have to both agree with you, and disagree on it, but the difference is in semantics, and NOT within the things you cite. The only shade of meaning I'd disagree with you on your post, and that's all it is is just a simple "shade" of meaning, is that there's nothing we can really do to "earn" the blessings we receive. Grace is and must be the source of it.

HOWEVER, I also think it's CLEAR that WE have to give God something TO bless, if we're to receive our quota of God's grace, and His blessings. So we DO have to put forth effort, but even if we put forth out absolute best from the day we're born until we die, it's all for naught unless God's Grace is present in it, and at the heart of it.

So though I disagree, it's only a tiny bit, and I take your post as one of the most true and wonderful that we can possibly have in this earthly life we live now. Thanks. Great post, and only an old curmudgeon like me would dare to disagree with it even in this tiny distinction. I've just come to the point where these tiny distinctions mean much more to me than they once did. Even at that, you get an A+ here from me. Thanks.

[ArrowJ]

Ah what a nuanced subject. For instance, define blessings. Final salvation may be the only blessing some receive other than the every day blessings God gives (He makes it rain on the wicked and the good).

Paul speaks of being satisfied in whatever circumstances he finds himself in...and sometimes those are bad. Therefore we can deduce (from that and other passages) that blessings is not defined as only comfort and material blessings.

Blessings are also relative. If you are a POW you may give God praise for a day without torture, but if you are free you may give God praise for help fixing a flat.

The minute we start naming and claiming (not that this is what the OP is doing) we are in danger of trying to earn comfort which is not what we are told to expect from the Christian life.

An interesting subject.

[claude]

is that there's nothing we can really do to "earn" the blessings we receive.

God's words say differently, and if you disagree, which you are free to do, you are not disagreeing with me, but the living God. I have set this forth for the edification of those who wish to read it. God's blessings are contingent upon action, we must fulfil the "IF'S" before we can be blessed.

It is extremely simple to understand the context of the verses I used in my post, I have not changed the meaning to suit my agenda as is so rampant in biblical studies.

Deut 28:1...." if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments"...

Those are God's words, these words require action, action is work, blessings are contingent upon obedience, and obedience is work, one earns by the simple act of obedience. or....by works;

7 Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.


8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.


9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

I can make it no clearer than that, it is not me who speaks, but the Living God. If you wish to muddy the water, and cloud His meaning, feel free. If you wish to supplant blessing with grace, give it your best shot, earning grace was never intimated, and it won't fly. Should you have scriptural references to disprove that action (work) is required to receive blessings, by all means share that with us and edify us that we may learn together. Quite frankly, without offering scriptural reference when teaching or discussing scripture one has no credibility and amounts to something akin to polishing ones own apple.

[w5pv]

Thanks for the post,God Bless

[buckwheatpaul]

I often pray for what God does for us as well as those things that He does for us that we do not recognize that He has done for us. He only wants us to come to Him and profess Him as our God and to accept the great sacrifice that Jesus made for us....it is through this that we gain Heaven and our Father.....God! Amen

[square butte]

So much to address here - But I would say that God causes each beat of my heart and each breath I take. It's hard to imagine God not having done anything for me. But then I did not always live in that place. Gratitude helps to keep me there ...

[DerekP Houston]

Thanks for the read, tagging this for follow up later.

[ArrowJ]

My point was simply that blessings must be defined, that they are not all material, and that they are not all immediate or even in this life.

The Bible is full of stories of men serving God and yet going through times of physical and spiritual drought.

For reference see the book of Job, and David's Psalms of lamentation.

In addition God blesses even those that do not serve Him temporarily with physical blessings: every breath they take, good jobs, families, etc. Indeed, there are those that turn from God all their lives and are materially blessed much more than servants of God.

He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Matthew 5:45

You cannot exclude the evidence we see around us even if it is not in the Bible. All Truth is God's truth. The Bible makes no mention of best practices for casting bullets, but we know they are true by observation. This is the way He designed the universe.

The Living God has presented a more complex picture than you are presenting with your proof texts. http://www.str.org/articles/never-read-a-bible-verse#.V4juGfQ8KJI

Does God bless those that serve Him? Absolutely. Will they be blessed more than those that do not? Yes! Will those blessings always be material and physical in nature? No. Is there Scripture to support this view? See above (and the rest of the Bible, along with daily observation).

There are two possibilities. God pours out showers of physical, material, temporal blessings on every single person that obeys Him and we know that because of this there are very few people actually obeying Him enough to receive these blessings, or the blessings discussed are not always material, physical, temporal blessings. The story the Scripture presents from immediately after that fall until the final consummation would seem to indicate the later.

So once again, this subject is not as simple as saying God blesses those that obey Him without clarifying what that means. Otherwise the reader is free to choose what that should mean and complain to God when they are serving Him faithfully and suffering from debt, cancer, death, famine, etc.

I would gently propose that it is best to use the phrase "it is not me speaking, but the Living God" very carefully. In general (but not always) it can be a sign of a lower than healthy level of humility in approaching God's Word.

All that being said, if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God I consider you a brother in Christ, and am comfortable with us not seeing completely eye to eye on this issue as God will continue to bless as He sees fit in either the way you imply or the way I do regardless.

[Blackwater]

I have no quarrel with your interpretation, Claude, as you meant it to apply. None a'tall. I only meant to clarify the context within which it is given. That's all. Verses without context CAN be misleading, especially to those young in their faith's walk. So I just felt compelled to qualify it slightly.

As an example, I'd point to Job, and how super faithful he was through all the trials God allowed to come upon him. And yet, God allowed them all. But in the end, Job was very richly blessed, and all that he'd lost was restored to him by God, once he'd proven himself. But we can't "buy" God's blessings with our good works. I'd again point to the example of the widow with the two mites and the rich man who boasted and made a big show of his contributions to the "poor box," and all the flowery prayers he rendered up, with one eye toward finding who was watching and admiring him. Remember who was blessed? The widow with the two mites, because she was humble, and wasn't doing anything for the benefit of others standing around, but for the love of her God that was in her heart, and she'd given all that she had to give. The boisterous rich man had much more than plenty left over after his donation.

So yes, God counts on us to give our time and efforts and though so that He might have something TO bless, but those blessings don't always come when WE want them to. Sometimes, God lets us be humbled before he'll send his blessings.

And yet, it's ALSO true that if we don't do our due diligence, He won't have anything TO bless. So it's really a pretty complex matter, and varies from time to time and person to person, and with what God knows we really NEED, IF we're to have our best of all possible chances of proving our worth to Him and His purposes.

Great post, Claude. It's one of those questions and propositions that gets deeper and deeper the more you tussle with it, but it's always a very crucial one to our faith. Even when His blessings seem to be denied us, it's STILL up to us to remain faithful, and prove ourselves in adversity, so that he CAN truly bless us once we've proven ourselves. And the more stoutly we DO prove ourselves, the richer will be the blessings we reap. But even then, they may not always be reaped in THIS world, but in the next. I suspect some awfully humble and mild folks here, will hold some high offices in Heaven.

And how can God make Himself be known if he doesn't sometimes allow some very righteous among us suffer horribly, in order to PROVE what His love and our love for Him can really do here? So some of us HAVE to suffer in order to provide examples for others, who need to see good examples of faith under duress.

But God always pays his IOU's, either in this world or the next. Too many young Christians think they can "buy" God's blessings with good works, and nothing could be further from the truth. Sometimes, He just lets some of us suffer so that all those around can see the power of real, true faith under duress. How could it work otherwise?

[Char-Gar]

That post sir, is an eisegetical crock made up from a patchwork bits and pieces of scripture without context. It is also far out of step with what we know from the New Testament about grace. Matthew 5:45 and many others.

[Ickisrulz]

We have to be careful in comparing the Old and New Covenants. The Old Covenant was a contract. This contract said God would bless Israel when she obeyed and punish her for disobedience (to bring her to obedience). It was cut and dried in how God would deal with Israel (although he was extremely patient and forgiving).

The New Covenant is not like the Old. We receive Salvation as a free gift because of God's love for us. With it comes a personal relationship with God, peace and joy. We are not promised anything beyond this as far as a special blessing.

Paul did talk about correction for Christians. But, according to Jesus, we cannot say that anytime something bad happens to a person God is punishing them. We just don't know what is going on when random bad happens to those around us.

If we want to live a happy (i.e., blessed) life, we will follow the principles laid out for us in scripture. The blessings are built into God's system--I guess you could say they are "earned." For example: work hard and you will have food to eat, pick a good wife and you'll be happier, raise your kids right and they'll succeed. Of course this doesn't mean something bad won't happen to us. Bad things happened to the Apostles and they were pretty good guys.

[Char-Gar]

There was a group of Jewish Christians that dogged the footsteps of Paul and he went on his missionary journey's. They told Paul's Gentile converts, that Paul was a good fellow all right, but he didn't give them the whole picture. Not only did they have to accept Jesus as Savior, but they must be circumcised and follow the law. Church history records these folks as the "Judaizers".

Paul condemned them roundly and even declared them to be anathema. To Paul it was Jesus and Jesus alone. There was no Jesus plus anything. Jesus was entirely adequate, without any kind of plus.

The situation became so acute, there was a big council called in Jerusalem where the matter was decided. Peter issued the decision and said it was only Jesus and to be a Christian did not require circumcision and the following of the law.

That should have settled the matter for all time, but the Judaizers/Legalists were not done, but went underground. They are still with us in many various reincarnations. They insist that it takes Jesus plus more.

Dear friends and brothers, anytime you hear somebody telling you that you need Jesus plus something else to have all the full blessing of God, reject that out of hand. This is a heresy as old as the faith itself. Never fall for a bunch of proof texting offered as proof for a proposition that has been rejected for 2,000 years. The Judaizers are yet among us!

[rl69]

Char-Gar your both right y'all are talking about deferant things. Jesus = salvation period. And I'm sure Claud fully agrees with that.

Works = worldly blessing. Which is what Claud is saying.

Now with all that said, God can, and will, bless whoever, He wants ,whenever, He wants.

if you have God in your life but you are living like hell you will never receve the full blessings he wants you to have in this world

[rl69]

His good work caused God too place a hedge around him so no harm could come to him.

Also for his faith, threw his trials he was rewarded.

what is your take on job. In context to this thread?

[rl69]

I agree, but the point of the post is believers receive blessings from deeds. Or,you are rewarded for your works, however you want to word it??

[rl69]

I agree 100 %

[DerekP Houston]

I agree, but the point of the post is believers receive blessings from deeds. Or,you are rewarded for your works, however you want to word it??

See this is where I have a difference of opinion with the Joel Osteen types promoting financial gain "if you just plant the seeds." Lots of people buy into the theory but nowhere did I see it mentioned that you will receive blessing just for wanting them. If it makes them feel better by all means carry on, but I can't understand it. To me, church isn't about the instant gratification or reward for helping....just makes me feel better and that's all i need at the moment.

[rl69]

You are correct. But if you are doing works for for rewards you are not living in the spirit. Also as Clay pointed out sometimes you receive your reward on the other side.

[DerekP Houston]

You are correct. But if you are doing works for for rewards you are not living in the spirit. Also as Clay pointed out sometimes you receive your reward on the other side.

Yep fine by me, I consider all my efforts just "paying it forward" for the blessings I recieved as a child. Stable house, 2 loving parents, traveled the world on company paid trips (relocations), and my college fund. I'm sure we had some rough times that they glossed over and we didn't even noticed. He also provided college education for all of us, though I made a poor decision of which school to attend. Even though my dad has told me in no uncertain terms it was a gift with no repayment needed, paying my college loans off enabled me to make some better choices and prosper. I *will* find him a '67 camaro one of these days as a gift in return. May not be stock or vintage condition, but fair is fair.

[johnson1942]

char-gar is 100 percent correct. he is the only one here with guts enough to keep this discussion christian. hope he keeps posting correct answers to the babies around here. wish the babies would listen.

[Blackwater]

You know, this has been a very good discussion, with great contributions from both sides. I can't help but wonder if maybe this is one of those times when we are seeking a pat, canned answer, that really just doesn't exist across the board in all situations. I think this likely because God's will can vary with each situation and individual. He blesses whomever He pleases, and provides challenges for those who need them, perhaps to humble them, or for some other good reason.

Thus, I think there's great validity on both sides of the issue, and the specific answer in any given situation depends on the simple will of God himself, and what He wants to be achieved. He's in control, not us, and too often, we look for very simple answers to very complex and variable questions. This, it seems, is one of those, for nobody here has posted one word that I don't think is true. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," pretty well proves Christ is ALL we need for salvation. But the blessings we receive depend not on our faith, but on God's will, and that varies for each of us, according to His plans. That's the only answer I've ever found that seems fully satisfying. We all tend to seek simpler answers to questions that just don't lend themselves well to simplistic, pat answers. The answers we find may well suit the situation we're addressing at the moment, but to then apply it across the board to ALL situations may well not. To me, that's an indication that we're supposed to THINK, and reason it all out, with diligence and love in our heart, and trust in God. Do that, and we tend to come up with more than one, simplistic answer and we avoid trying to ram that square peg in the round hole. Just seems the only logic there is to glean from all of the good info presented here. That's all I can make of it, anyway.

[johnson1942]

blackwater, your a fence rider and you speak vomit and thanks to some one for teaching me the word verbose, verbose with no connection at all. thats you. cla m and char-gar are the real deal. they are not on some throne looking down on all of us handing out mindless dribble. i saw a slick pastor take 30 thousand dollars out of a small church once. thats good for a weekends work. he went back to his sinfull life in calif. laughing all the way. he was one of those money from God boys, left that church because if they are that stupid couldnt be around them. their is a good word for you blackwater that comes from me, your a ya butter. you ya but every thing. you and i know who and what you are, dont we, i know that you know that. i also dont want any comments and dribble from you or i will really cut loose. listen to these grown up christian men for once and put it away. they have words of wisdom.

[Char-Gar]

Shortly after I became a Christian (1970) and was preparing to leave the practice of law and go to the seminary, a wise man from the East gave me some sage advice that I have carried with me all these years.

He said: "Always remember, my younger brother that theology is not God, it is just men talking about God."

I have always tried to understand the total witness of scripture with more emphasis on the New Testament. I have very little patience with people trying to string together isolated scripture passages to prove this quirky notion on another, as if it really matters. As if, folks really understand God's working or their poor efforts and understanding will somehow force God to conform to their thinking.

These kinds of discussions accomplish nothing. They do not illuminate , they do not educate, nor do they lift up the crucified and risen Christ. They just rehash old heresies , make new ones and in general distract from the central focus of faith in Christ.

Here are a bunch of folks who profess to be Christians carrying on about whether what is accomplished through hard work is a blessing or just an accomplishment of the flesh. The salient truth of the matter is, whatever you call it, it isn't about Christ and you can't take it with you when you die.

We are living in a time when most folks in American wants nothing to do with Christians and their churches. They are interested in Jesus, but not the folks who carry his name. Ever wonder why?

American Christians are the most unfocused people I know. Muslims on the other hand a very focused. Muslims know who they are, what they believe and how to live that belief. American Christians just know how to quibble and count the dancing angels on the head of a pin.

This isn't Jesus boys, just a whole bunch of yak..yak about what people think is a blessing or not. I have my views, but who cares about them. Get focused boys! The fields are white unto harvest and the workers are few.

[johnson1942]

thank you, you are being listened to.

[DerekP Houston]

I'm not there yet, still learning. Appreciate both sides of the conversation.

[ArrowJ]

He said: "Always remember, my younger brother that theology is not God, it is just men talking about God."

These kinds of discussions accomplish nothing. They do not illuminate , they do not educate, nor do they lift up the crucified and risen Christ.


Hmm, you said a mouthful there. I reread my posts because I agree with your assessment of the primacy of Christ etc. and wanted to see where I was off target. Unless it is in falling prey to useless theology I do not think it was unbiblical.

I think the above quote is where I disagree to some degree (although not fully). Your post is in fact a theological discussion. Therefore there are times when it is necessary and edifying to discuss theology. Does this particular thread illuminate, educate, etc.? I think it could. If a believer or even an unbeliever were to read it and learn that following Christ is not about earning rewards etc. this could be beneficial to them and ultimately increase the glory given to Christ.

That being said, you make great points. Perhaps the horse is beaten enough in this case.

[Blackwater]

J42, why the venom? Is that truly as Christian as you set yourself forth to be? I state only what I've come to think about the scriptures in total, and have stated some of the reasons for it. You, on the other hand, have donated nothing but venom and aspersions, stated as absolute fact. If your interpretation of the scriptures differs from mine, isn't that to be expected among Christians? Isn't such sentiments as yours what has weakened us, and fragmented us for a very, very long time? Why do we have to sink to that to express ourselves? Most of the best Christians I know are not like that.

They state what they believe, and aren't intimidated nor diminished in the least that someone else sees things differently than they do. They have the peace and contentment that we've all been promised IF we'd just apply what Christ tried to teach us. I thought this was a very good discussion, and indicative of the variances of interpretations, and whence they come. If you see it differently, so be it. That's YOUR right. It's also your obligation to consider it, and seek wisdom wherever you find it.

Some of the questions in Christianity have always been answered differently by different folks at different times and places. But to think any of them are as you describe me is pretty ego-centric, don't you think? And NOT according to what Christ instructed us to be and do. But it's your opinion, and I honor that. I just simply disagree, and I disagree for the reasons stated. And it's only a shade of meaning, to boot, so why that should initiate such an accusative reaction as yours is beyond my ability to justify. But again, that's me. Not you. You have to believe and act and state what YOU think, and defend it if you see fit, in whatever way you see fit. I have no problem with that. Seeking out differing views is how we're supposed to learn and grow "in the Word," isn't it?

So I take your passion to be devotion to the Word, and not quite as it came out of you. I honor your passion, but we all say things in our passions that don't come out quite like what we meant to say. I can live with that.

But you haven't given me any reason to change my view. You just stated a countering view as though that was supposed to be enough. But not one of us believes without good and valid reason to do so, as best as we can discern what is meant by what the Bible says. Literality has its assets, but also its limitations. I don't think Christ intended us to limit ourselves in discerning all that the Bible has to offer us, and I'm certain He didn't intend us to divide and fight among ourselves about it.

But there's always some who break ranks in many serious discussions of theology, and try to end the discussion when they feel the least discomfort or challenge. I never challenged you or anyone else to do anything but think and contribute. Isn't that how such theological discussions were meant to be conducted? Have we become so lame and intimidated and closed off from other Christians, that we can no longer even discuss important concepts within Christianity? Most of us can. A few seem to try to close off discussion and power through and declare their own vision as "The One." I'm not at that point in my own walk, that I know things THAT concretely, but if you are, more power to you.

You don't care about my verbosity. You just don't like what I have to say. That's fair enough. Nobody here likes ever word that's posted. Are we to all go off on our own then, and separate ourselves from each other, thus weakening the total body of Christ in this world? How's that likely to come out in the end? We've been doing just that for an awfully long time. Look around. How's it seem to be working where you live?

Is it not time when we put away our petty differences of opinion, and concentrate on doing the work of God? And if we're to do His work, how is it that we're to do it when we close off so many, many other believers in Christianity? When did we all have to get everything perfectly according to any one of us? Christ admonished every one of us to "study to show thyself approved," and in doing so, does that not indicate that we all have something to learn from each other, at least from time to time?

Too often we Christians (and everybody else in this country it seems) get to a point where we feel "comfortable," and never learn or grow beyond that point. I don't think that's what Christ had in mind for us, but if you differ on that point, then you'll have to go with whatever you've determined to be right for you. If you could maybe show me some reason, or the error of my ways, mightn't that not be a good way to do as you were instructed by the originator of our Faith? But you didn't. You took the easy way out, the one that made you feel more "righteous." I guess you've pretty well answered that age-old question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" pretty well in this instance. So be it if that's what you demand for yourself. But for me, this ain't about you or me, it's about Christ, and understanding Him and His words. Some, though, see it as a battle between individuals. If you can show me the error of my ways, I'd likely come over to your way of thinking, but you've cut that off at the gate, haven't you? Why? Was it for Christ, or for your own ego and uncertainty in your belief, and a desire not to challenge it lest it not hold water? Only you can determine that answer. Not me. It's part of the self-analysis that we all have to go through along our separate ways.

Theology is great, right up until it starts to divide us, but the answer is NOT to just not discuss it, and pretend it doesn't exist. The answer, really, seems to be to reason and talk it all out. You cut that off with your post. But you don't have to let it stay that way. We had a pretty good discussion going. It could continue, if we'd simply let it.

[Char-Gar]

[QUOTE=ArrowJ;3712275]I think the above quote is where I disagree to some degree (although not fully). Your post is in fact a theological discussion. Therefore there are times when it is necessary and edifying to discuss theology. Does this particular thread illuminate, educate, etc.? I think it could. If a believer or even an unbeliever were to read it and learn that following Christ is not about earning rewards etc. this could be beneficial to them and ultimately increase the glory given to Christ./QUOTE]

An unbeliever would not read this post, as it is just Christians bickering over nothing of consequence. I don't consider bickering to equal to doing responsible theology.

[Hogtamer]

Ephesians couldn't be clearer. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works lest anyone boast. In fact we were created for good works prepared especially for us. That is our Christian.duty.

[ArrowJ]

[QUOTE=ArrowJ;3712275]

An unbeliever would not read this post, as it is just Christians bickering over nothing of consequence. I don't consider bickering to equal to doing responsible theology.

Perhaps you are right. Do you not rebuke, correct, instruct etc.? It would seem that if something false is said it should at least be addressed to some degree before being dismissed as having degraded into bickering (which seems to have happened here). For that matter, much like your comment on theology which was theological this secondary discussion on bickering could be seen as bickering by an outsider (although I do not personally consider it so).

Also, this forum is full of unbelievers. Of course, I have to admit that at this point it would be less than beneficial for them to see most of this thread. I guess that makes that point. Perhaps the minutia of theology should be discussed on the "inside"? I do not know. I will let it go at this point in order to avoid further muddying of the water.

[DerekP Houston]

Perhaps you are right. Do you not rebuke, correct, instruct etc.? It would seem that if something false is said it should at least be addressed to some degree before being dismissed as having degraded into bickering (which seems to have happened here). For that matter, much like your comment on theology which was theological this secondary discussion on bickering could be seen as bickering by an outsider (although I do not personally consider it so).

Also, this forum is full of unbelievers. Of course, I have to admit that at this point it would be less than beneficial for them to see most of this thread. I guess that makes that point. Perhaps the minutia of theology should be discussed on the "inside"? I do not know. I will let it go at this point in order to avoid further muddying of the water.

Without all the bickering I wouldn't have gone back to see what I was missing. Feel free to call me out if I misinterpret something or get the wrong point.

[rl69]

Johnson I'm curious as to what I ,or anyone else has said that was wrong? This hole thread seams to be a huge misunderstanding of what is being said. No one is preaching works over salvation.

[Blackwater]

Was it Paul who said "count it all a blessing?" I forget at the moment, but whether we realize or understand it or not, even our "problems" and "troubles" are a blessing, if we could just see them rightly, and not through our own peculiar set of desires .... and our everpresent laziness. Who among us has just "let it go" because we didn't "feel up to it right now?" If anyone here has never done that, please speak up! You're really a rare bird in this life!

That's WHY I know that it's ALL a "blessing," but I also have to acknowledge that we don't always recognize blessings when they come to us, and too often see them as "problems" rather than "opportunities." That's really the crux of all that I intended to state here. If anyone can counter it, please do.

[rl69]

Nor is it my focus. plus I'm so far in the rears I could never catch up. good thing there is no point system.(joke)

[dtknowles]

[QUOTE=ArrowJ;3712275]I think the above quote is where I disagree to some degree (although not fully). Your post is in fact a theological discussion. Therefore there are times when it is necessary and edifying to discuss theology. Does this particular thread illuminate, educate, etc.? I think it could. If a believer or even an unbeliever were to read it and learn that following Christ is not about earning rewards etc. this could be beneficial to them and ultimately increase the glory given to Christ./QUOTE]

An unbeliever would not read this post, as it is just Christians bickering over nothing of consequence. I don't consider bickering to equal to doing responsible theology.

I did and have been. I read the Chapel posts I just try not to inject undue disagreement.

Tim

[Char-Gar]

Johnson I'm curious as to what I ,or anyone else has said that was wrong? This hole thread seams to be a huge misunderstanding of what is being said. No one is preaching works over salvation.

It isn't a matter of works over salvation. It is a matter of earning our blessings after salvation. There is the strong message that what Christ did on the cross was not enough for all the blessings of life. Now that we are saved, we must earn more blessings. That may have not been what the OP intended, but that is why I and others read.

This opened up a Pandora's box of issues about the place of material good in life, etc. etc. etc. I think the OP was poorly worded. The OP got all caught up in some testimony and though he had found a gem and started this without thinking things through. However, he did say he thought this might cause some controversy and on that he was correct.

At any rate, I don't think there is anything to be gained by continuing to wrangle over this issue and who said what and why. I have said my piece and with that I will go on to other things.

God's richest unearned blessing to all!

[rl69]

Quote " now that we are saved, we must earn more blessings " I can not speak for Claude,but this is not how i took his post ,and don't think that's how he meant it. What has been laid on my hart is that . "Now that we are saved we can earn blessings threw works".everything we have has been given to us by God. And it is him that chooses what we have.

[DerekP Houston]

Quote " now that we are saved, we must earn more blessings " I can not speak for Claude,but this is not how i took his post ,and don't think that's how he meant it. What has been laid on my hart is that . "Now that we are saved we can earn blessings threw works".everything we have has been given to us by God. And it is him that chooses what we have.

I'll just say thanks for all i've been given and keep paying it forward. Perhaps my blessings on someone else are what leads them back to the fold. Mysterious ways and whatnot. I don't expect anything to be given or rewarded I'll take care of me and mine. It makes me feel better about things if I help others, so that is all that matters to me at this point.

[claude]

no charlie, it was poorly read on your part, perhaps to simple,there is zero reference to Christ's sacrifice being inadequate.

It opened the pandora's box in your mind possibly, but many here understand thoroughly the truth that God doesn't change. When He makes a promise it is everlasting.

For those of you unable to define blessing, I will give you a tutorial:

H-1293. Berakah, ber-aw-kaw'; from H-1288; benediction; by impl. prosperity:--blessing, liberal, pool, present.

.... H-1288. barak, baw-rak';

a prim. root; to kneel; by impl. to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):-- X abundantly, X altogether, X at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, X greatly, X indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, X still, thank.

Isn't that just so very deep? Such a difficult concept.

This is for your edification charlie, we cannot pick up the bible and not read of Jesus unless we are ignorant of who he is, willingly or otherwise. God is Jesus, Jesus is God, another extremely tough concept;

John 1:1-5King James Version (KJV) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Furthermore charlie;


2 Timothy 3:16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy+3:16&version=KJV)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Now you just go ahead and spin away on that charlie, you opinionate to your little butt's desire, it will not change the truth one little bit, that truth being if you want God's blessings, His nod of approval, you perform;

Simple Definition of perform


: to do an action or activity that usually requires training or skill




and performance is work;

Simple Definition of work


: a job or activity that you do regularly especially in order to earn money





: the things that you do especially as part of your job




If your job is not to please Christ, I feel sorry for you charlie.

If you wish to attempt to make me look foolish, I revel in it;

1 Corinthians 1:25-27King James Version (KJV) 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Good day to you sir, this will be my last word on this matter, I have addressed you only because you seem to have such an extraordinarily high opinion of your knowledge of all things scriptural and yet I see no proof of it. What I see is a man regarded by himself as beyond reproof, a withered and sere wineskin, a man deluded by his imagined brightness. But, that is only what I see, it is God who does the deciding charlie, and He sees differently;



1 Samuel 16:7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel+16:7&version=KJV)
But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

[jmort]

I don't get why the usual blow-hard cannot have a civil discussion about something he disagrees with. The Bible instructs that God be tested in a single area, and that area is giving. Not like a slot machine or ATM or even a reward on earth, but that seems implied as well as a heavenly reward. Too many people are afraid of the Bible. The blow-hard is the last person/elder you want showing up from your church when you are on the bed of affliction. You would end up with some wishy-washy prayer, "God I know you probably won't heal this man, but I'm going through the motions. Amen."
So what is the one area we are instructed to test God?:

Parallel Verses

New International Version (http://biblehub.com/niv/malachi/3.htm)
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.


New Living Translation (http://biblehub.com/nlt/malachi/3.htm)
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test!


English Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/esv/malachi/3.htm)
Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.


New American Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/nasb/malachi/3.htm)
"Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.


King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/malachi/3.htm)
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be roomenough to receive it.


Holman Christian Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/hcsb/malachi/3.htm)
Bring the full tenth into the storehouse so that there may be food in My house. Test Me in this way," says the LORD of Hosts. "See if I will not open the floodgates of heaven and pour out a blessing for you without measure.


International Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/isv/malachi/3.htm)
"Bring the entire tithe into the storehouse that there may be food in my house. So put me to the test in this right now," says the LORD of the Heavenly Armies, "and see if I won't throw open the windows of heaven for you and pour out on you blessing without measure.


NET Bible (http://biblehub.com/net/malachi/3.htm)
"Bring the entire tithe into the storehouse so that there may be food in my temple. Test me in this matter," says the LORD who rules over all, "to see if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until there is no room for it all.


GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://biblehub.com/gwt/malachi/3.htm)
"Bring one-tenth of your income into the storehouse so that there may be food in my house. Test me in this way," says the LORD of Armies. "See if I won't open the windows of heaven for you and flood you with blessings.


JPS Tanakh 1917 (http://biblehub.com/jps/malachi/3.htm)
Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, That there may be food in My house, And try Me now herewith, Saith the LORD of hosts, If I will not open you the windows of heaven, And pour you out a blessing, That there shall be more than sufficiency.


New American Standard 1977 (http://biblehub.com/nasb77/malachi/3.htm)
“Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this,” says the LORD of hosts, “if I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.


Jubilee Bible 2000 (http://biblehub.com/jub/malachi/3.htm)
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, and there shall be food in my house, and prove me now in this, said the LORD of the hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


King James 2000 Bible (http://biblehub.com/kj2000/malachi/3.htm)
Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house, and test me now in this, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


American King James Version (http://biblehub.com/akjv/malachi/3.htm)
Bring you all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house, and prove me now herewith, said the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


American Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/asv/malachi/3.htm)
Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it .


Douay-Rheims Bible (http://biblehub.com/drb/malachi/3.htm)
Bring all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in my house, and try me in this, saith the Lord: if I open not unto you the flood-gates of heaven, and pour you out a blessing even to abundance.


Darby Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/dbt/malachi/3.htm)
Bring the whole tithe into the treasure-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I open not to you the windows of the heavens, and pour you out a blessing, till there be no place for it.


English Revised Version (http://biblehub.com/erv/malachi/3.htm)
Bring ye the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


Webster's Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/wbt/malachi/3.htm)
Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


World English Bible (http://biblehub.com/web/malachi/3.htm)
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house, and test me now in this," says Yahweh of Armies, "if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough for.


Young's Literal Translation (http://biblehub.com/ylt/malachi/3.htm)
Bring in all the tithe unto the treasure-house, And there is food in My house; When ye have tried Me, now, with this, Said Jehovah of Hosts, Do not I open to you the windows of heaven? Yea, I have emptied on you a blessing till there is no space.

[jmort]

And the follow-on from Jesus

Parallel Verses

New International Version (http://biblehub.com/niv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


New Living Translation (http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full--pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back."


English Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/esv/luke/6.htm)
give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”


Berean Study Bible (http://biblehub.com/bsb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."


Berean Literal Bible (http://biblehub.com/blb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure pressed down, shaken together, running over will they put into your lap. For with that measure you measure, it will be measured again to you."


New American Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/nasb/luke/6.htm)
"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure-- pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."


King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


Holman Christian Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/hcsb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you; a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over--will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."


International Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/isv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A large quantity, pressed together, shaken down, and running over will be put into your lap, because you'll be evaluated by the same standard with which you evaluate others."


NET Bible (http://biblehub.com/net/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you: A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be poured into your lap. For the measure you use will be the measure you receive."


Aramaic Bible in Plain English (http://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/6.htm)
“Give and it will be given to you in good measure, pressed down and overflowing, they shall cast into your lap. For with what measure you measure it will be measured to you.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://biblehub.com/gwt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and you will receive. A large quantity, pressed together, shaken down, and running over will be put into your pocket. The standards you use for others will be applied to you."


New American Standard 1977 (http://biblehub.com/nasb77/luke/6.htm)
“Give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, they will pour into your lap. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”


Jubilee Bible 2000 (http://biblehub.com/jub/luke/6.htm)
give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down and shaken together and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye measure out it shall be measured to you again.


King James 2000 Bible (http://biblehub.com/kj2000/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your lap. For with the same measure that you measure it shall be measured to you again.


American King James Version (http://biblehub.com/akjv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you mete with it shall be measured to you again.


American Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/asv/luke/6.htm)
give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again.


Douay-Rheims Bible (http://biblehub.com/drb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you: good measure and pressed down and shaken together and running over shall they give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you shall mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.


Darby Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/dbt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom: for with the same measure with which ye mete it shall be measured to you again.


English Revised Version (http://biblehub.com/erv/luke/6.htm)
give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again.


Webster's Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/wbt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye give to others, it shall be measured to you again.


Weymouth New Testament (http://biblehub.com/wey/luke/6.htm)
give, and gifts shall be bestowed on you. Full measure, pressed, shaken down, and running over, shall they pour into your laps; for with the same measure that you use they shall measure to you in return."


World English Bible (http://biblehub.com/web/luke/6.htm)
"Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."


Young's Literal Translation (http://biblehub.com/ylt/luke/6.htm)
'Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed, and shaken, and running over, they shall give into your bosom; for with that measure with which ye measure, it shall be measured to you again.'

[rl69]

Clay I think that has been the main misunderstanding in this thread. I know that I do not believe in the carrot and the stick approach. I liken it too a child wanting too please his father. And the father rewarding him for his effort. And if I never get that pat on the head,that's fine I still want to please him.

[skeettx]

:)
My premise, It is about God, it is not about me.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(NAS)

That said, once in Fellowship with God (Saved) then we are to try to be more like Him and please Him (good works)

[Ickisrulz]

And the follow-on from Jesus

Parallel Verses

New International Version (http://biblehub.com/niv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


New Living Translation (http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full--pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back."


English Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/esv/luke/6.htm)
give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”


Berean Study Bible (http://biblehub.com/bsb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."


Berean Literal Bible (http://biblehub.com/blb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure pressed down, shaken together, running over will they put into your lap. For with that measure you measure, it will be measured again to you."


New American Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/nasb/luke/6.htm)
"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure-- pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."


King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


Holman Christian Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/hcsb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you; a good measure--pressed down, shaken together, and running over--will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."


International Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/isv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you. A large quantity, pressed together, shaken down, and running over will be put into your lap, because you'll be evaluated by the same standard with which you evaluate others."


NET Bible (http://biblehub.com/net/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it will be given to you: A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be poured into your lap. For the measure you use will be the measure you receive."


Aramaic Bible in Plain English (http://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/luke/6.htm)
“Give and it will be given to you in good measure, pressed down and overflowing, they shall cast into your lap. For with what measure you measure it will be measured to you.”


GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://biblehub.com/gwt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and you will receive. A large quantity, pressed together, shaken down, and running over will be put into your pocket. The standards you use for others will be applied to you."


New American Standard 1977 (http://biblehub.com/nasb77/luke/6.htm)
“Give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, they will pour into your lap. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return.”


Jubilee Bible 2000 (http://biblehub.com/jub/luke/6.htm)
give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down and shaken together and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye measure out it shall be measured to you again.


King James 2000 Bible (http://biblehub.com/kj2000/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your lap. For with the same measure that you measure it shall be measured to you again.


American King James Version (http://biblehub.com/akjv/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you mete with it shall be measured to you again.


American Standard Version (http://biblehub.com/asv/luke/6.htm)
give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again.


Douay-Rheims Bible (http://biblehub.com/drb/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you: good measure and pressed down and shaken together and running over shall they give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you shall mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.


Darby Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/dbt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom: for with the same measure with which ye mete it shall be measured to you again.


English Revised Version (http://biblehub.com/erv/luke/6.htm)
give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, shall they give into your bosom. For with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again.


Webster's Bible Translation (http://biblehub.com/wbt/luke/6.htm)
Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye give to others, it shall be measured to you again.


Weymouth New Testament (http://biblehub.com/wey/luke/6.htm)
give, and gifts shall be bestowed on you. Full measure, pressed, shaken down, and running over, shall they pour into your laps; for with the same measure that you use they shall measure to you in return."


World English Bible (http://biblehub.com/web/luke/6.htm)
"Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you."


Young's Literal Translation (http://biblehub.com/ylt/luke/6.htm)
'Give, and it shall be given to you; good measure, pressed, and shaken, and running over, they shall give into your bosom; for with that measure with which ye measure, it shall be measured to you again.'

Just for the record, this "promise" is concerning MERCY per its context. Be merciful and God will be merciful to you. This verse has nothing to do with anything material.

[Boaz]

In my church I am instructed to study the scripture and use it for a guide in my life . We are all drawn to different verse as part of GOD's plan for us as an individual , it is part of our personal relationship with him . The same message in verse could have different meaning to different people as is GOD's way , it's not an accident . I read and pray for guidance , much scripture is finite but much is applicable to different situations in combining verse. It's a combination of all with his plan for you . Without him directing you there is no understanding what his word means to you .

[jmort]

"...this "promise" is concerning MERCY per its context."

Makes sense in context. But there are many who take it in terms of giving. I tend to agree with you, but I find it to be a "blessing" that adds up:
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/6-38.htm

[Ickisrulz]

"...this "promise" is concerning MERCY per its context."

Makes sense in context. But there are many who take it in terms of giving. I tend to agree with you, but I find it to be a "blessing" that adds up:
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/6-38.htm


Tithing is not something mandated in the New Testament. It is part of the Old Covenant. The contract with Israel was primarily an earthly blessing in exchange for obedience. If Israel followed the Law, she would be blessed with material prosperity and peace. Part of the Law was giving a tenth of the material blessing back to God. Israel was not doing this when Malachi addressed it. Malachi said once Israel began following the Law again (tithing) she would be blessed.

Christian Jews in the New Testament continued to bring tithes and offerings. But this was for tradition and their way of life rather than a New Covenant requirement. There are passages dealing with money in the New Testament, of course. But these say we must advance the kingdom, take care of the truly poor and support God's ministers. Needs must be taken care of but there is no set amount we are required to give to God. There is no suggestion we will be blessed materially because we give.

I've heard the misuse of these verses on different occasions. It can be confusing unless one does their own research and understands the difference between Israel and the Church.

[Clay M]

I never harped on giving.
I told the people ,"You know what you are able to give, you know what the needs of the church are, and you know exactly where the money goes and how it is spent."" What you give is between you and God, and I don't want to know."

I never touched the plates.

We used the money for my meager salary, the building fund, and mission work.

I always believed in a church being active within the community and being involved in local missions.

I found that when people were involved in doing mission work, there was less bickering and discontentment.

[Blackwater]

I have now gone back over what's been written here several times, at various times, trying to discern where the antipathy has come from. And it still seems to me that here in this two dimensional realm, devoid of expression and tonal inflection and cadence and character of voice, it's all been generated from divergent understandings or perceptions of what some of the words herein stated really mean, and HOW they're meant. There's no weighting or intent discernable here in this two dimensional electronic realm. And nothing generates more passion than religious discussions! Add those two things together, and it's hard to have a genuinely effective discussion, especially when you add in man's (even believers') passions and perceptions into the mix.

I personally don't care what another Christian thinks, or if it differs from what I think. I only care whether he IS a Christian, and whether he displays it righteously. None of us always does that last, I'm afraid. It's our weaknesses coming out in various ways. And this, I think, is intended by God to be a caution light to us. I just hope we exercise our due diligence in heeding that caution light.

There's no need here for declarations of another Christian's lack of sincerity or understanding. That's a given for ALL of us, for not one among us, even the most studied, formally or otherwise, can ever know it ALL. I think this is intended by God to keep us humble, and humble folks don't generally attack their fellow Christians. But it DOES happen within our ranks, of course. it's a shame when it does, but the offenders always seem to have justifications for their offense, rather than a calm and Godly attitude toward their fellow Christians. So, as long as folks like that remain most prominent in our Faith, people around us will continue to get turned off to our message. What a waste and a shame and a tragedy that is! And it's NOT what we were advised to be about as followers of Christ. It's something we need to correct, I think, bu that's only my view, and no one man in Christianity can tell another what to do. Only to consider things. Then it's in the other's court to do with as they see fit. That's really all any of us CAN do. The rest is up to each of us as individuals, and the sincerity of our search for more and better answers.

[johnson1942]

man blackwater that was the best use of verbose in the transfering of guilt that i ever read. your a master of that. really really good. just proves my point. i could use your post in a psychology 101 class.

[Blackwater]

Whatever you want to make of it. That's up to YOU. You obviously think you've discovered the REAL Truth, and anyone else is just wrong. So be it. If you were as right as you seem to think, and were following Christ's very clear instructions, you'd post WHY you think that, but you don't. You just cast further aspersions at one who doesn't quite agree with you like you think I should. I'm OK with that. If you're not, it's your problem, not mine. I'm too busy searching for the Truth, and if you don't want to impart it, I'll just look elsewhere, but sometimes, that's what folks who take the tactic you have wanted anyway - a reserved and exclusive view that you don't and won't share with anybody. That seems TO ME to be in direct contradiction to what Christ admonished us to do, but you have your particular view, and it's not required in any way to be the exact same as mine. As has been said, belief is all it really takes, but that's just the start. Then, we have to "study to show thyself approved," and part of studying is getting it wrong. Some don't care whether or if they get it wrong, they just want an answer they can adopt and use as it pleases them. That's been going on for 2000 years now, and wasn't unknown even among the apostles in their earlier days of following Jesus. He had to train and even at times chastise them to shape them into what he intended for them to be, and what they'd HAVE to be to do what was ahead of them.

There's absolutely no psychology in that. It's just simple truth. If you failed to note it in your reading of the Bible, you might want to check it out once more, and note the parts you missed. Or not. Your call.

[johnson1942]

now you speaking for me and putting words in my mouth. man are you on a roll. it is very very easy to get you to show who and what you really are. i dont doubt your salvation, but you are a spoiled child who never ever grew up. bet your glowing like a light bulb now, you getting some attention. cant help your self can you? too late for you to grow up.

[Boaz]

That's what these type 'discussions' are good for .... causing hard feelings and hate . Not to mention what non believers think . The pit is the more appropriate place .

[johnson1942]

just trying to have him do some reality orientation and self refelection. the child needs to grow up. took enough of his **** and had him ruin enough good discussions, he needs, again, some reality orientation. that why they call it tough love, tough love is not enabeling. im comfortable im doing it right. i have had years of experiences in just this area. others have told me im on the right track here, he just ruins it so men of wisdom never ever post as they dont want to deal with him. again he ruins every good discussion that is started here and below. your right, it belong below but he brought it here so here it is.

[Boaz]

I'm not even upset , it always ends this way ......no purpose served . I'm not picking sides , I will believe /do what the Lord puts in my heart . We all should .

Anyone want to argue that ?

[DerekP Houston]

I'm not even upset , it always ends this way ......no purpose served . I'm not picking sides , I will believe /do what the Lord puts in my heart . We all should .

Anyone want to argue that ?

Actually that's exactly my philosophy. And to put my money where my mouth is I did go ahead and donate to the collection plate. I still rather donate to friends/family/deserving folks but I see the point about needing to help the church out with its financial obligations. I've been blessed quite a bit the past year even with the layoff.

[rl69]

It's kinda funny to hear about the offering plate. We don't pass one,we have a box in the back you can give if you fill lead.

how was y'all's service Derek ? What was it on ?

[Ickisrulz]

It's kinda funny to hear about the offering plate. We don't pass one,we have a box in the back you can give if you fill lead.

That is awesome. I have never been to a church that did that. From what I understand this was the method for accepting donations at the Temple in Jesus' time. I'd bet your method results in the same amount it would if the offering were taken in the middle of the service.

[rl69]

The AFCC is not a governing body,the churches that belong to it or not required to follow its suggestions. But from the cowboy churches I have visited it seams to be SOP.

We also do not do alter calls.the preacher will show anyone who want too give their life too Christ,how to pray he tells them you can do it right where your at, and that he and the lay pastors will be up front after service if you have questions or need prayers.

[johnson1942]

its all about the Son of God and building up the body of believers. doesnt get better than that.

[Blackwater]

Johnson, you were the first to turn this thread into a venom spewing match, which if it were in the pit, would be understandable. Here, it's not. This has always been a place where folks could disagree agreeably. I've tried to do that. You have not. I've already stated I've been back over all that was posted here several times, trying to find where I'd erred, and if indeed I had. All I've done is state what I thought. That's it. And if you'd wanted to "straighten me out," you certainly could have, or at least tried. You did not. Instead, you chose to lace this thread with venom and pat accusations without backing it up in any way.

That's not what the Chapel is about, but that's what you did here. If you want to see things differently, or take whatever I post and make whatever you will of it, then I can live with that. I will not, however, join you in your pit-like posts here. I can't control you, but I can control my own self, and I refuse to lower myself to your level of venom spewing. Think and believe whatever you wish. Agree or disagree as you deem fit or necessary. But please, keep the venom in the pit, and not here. That's just plain old-fashioned Christian decency. We don't have to spew venom whenever someone posts something that conflicts with our beliefs. But it seems common, and therein lies the great weakness of modern day Christianity. Nobody's talking TO each other, but AT each other. Not much gets done in the later case that's good. I'd think every Christian could see that.

[dtknowles]

If somebody insulted you during Church Services, at a wedding or funeral, do you make a scene or just let it go?

Tim

[johnson1942]

their you go again blackwater, you just dont learn. you keep exposing your self. transference of guilt. the first time was a masterpiece, the last one not so much. you are a slow learner. now be honest, tell us how this has been the happiest day you have had in a long time. you have got a lot of attention today, you got to be shinning like a light bulb. glad to have made your day.

[Blackwater]

Attention??? Me??? All I've done is state what I believe. If that's "wanting attention," then I guess everyone here who posts what they think is "seeking attention." But they're not. They're here to learn and where they can, to share their own ideas and beliefs. You have obviously got some sort of serious problem with what I believe. I can live with that. Apparently, you can't. But this is my last post to you here. You have the floor. Say whatever you wish.

[DerekP Houston]

It's kinda funny to hear about the offering plate. We don't pass one,we have a box in the back you can give if you fill lead.

how was y'all's service Derek ? What was it on ?

Vacation bible school was last week, I'm not up to date on the calender so we just find out when we walk in the door.

They were singing all the verses they learned during the week and a general kids session. My son started throwing a tantrum because he heard there was "ice cream social after service" and daddy said not until after. Walked him around and looked at all the class rooms and pictures counting and doing shapes until he calmed down then we listened from the hallway. He refused to go back in but I *did* make him wait until the other kids were released and eating ice cream before he got his.


On a different note:
my offering issues stem from the same church i've mentioned before. No one was rude up front or anything just passed around as usual. It was seeing the church members laugh and mock people while counting it in the office that soured my stomach. *especially* when we noted on ours it was for "church use only" not for their building fund. I was an alter boy and both parents worked there so I frequently blend in to the background and just listen in. Like I said, now I know it was just the people but the whole experience has been tinted through that lense.

Not sure what all the bickering here is about I just skipped over it.

[johnson1942]

sorry guys, when he stops trying to turn this focus around and lay it back on me i will stop. i can not let a personality disorder like his win. as you can see he is still trying that transference of guilt thing like a little boy in middle school. he is sayiny things i never ever said to divert. i do not doubt blackwater when he says jesus is his savior. that is not the issue. he just takes over and ruins and diverts every good post from good mature commited christians that start here and points it all to him self to feed his all about self disorder. simple as that. their are a lot of mature good commited christians with a lot of mature christain knowledge that starts a post and then it goes in the toilet from blackwater. these men are leaders in churches and even pastors and on the board of deacons and lay pastors. some are just good every day hard working christians. i even like the ones seeking knowledge like the man from england. sometime their oppisition is really just seeking questions and answers. sorry guys then along comes blackwater and puts water on the fire because he takes over and no one wants to deal with him. i know others are out their that want to post wonderful comments but know that will just feed his endless dribble and seeking of attention. ive been pm/d and even phone calls because my phone number is easily found about what is up with this guy. its very very simple, he ends every thing that is good that starts. blackwater, stop putting the fire out. address why you really do this. you have a problem.stop the transference of guilt thing. you are not good at all in hiding your disorder. you are a end less void for sucking up attention. good or bad attention, it makes no difference to you. your with adults here, stop being the disrupting middle school child. thats the truth, thats the way it is and your exposed.

[rl69]

Vacation bible school was last week, I'm not up to date on the calender so we just find out when we walk in the door.

They were singing all the verses they learned during the week and a general kids session. My son started throwing a tantrum because he heard there was "ice cream social after service" and daddy said not until after. Walked him around and looked at all the class rooms and pictures counting and doing shapes until he calmed down then we listened from the hallway. He refused to go back in but I *did* make him wait until the other kids were released and eating ice cream before he got his.


On a different note:
my offering issues stem from the same church i've mentioned before. No one was rude up front or anything just passed around as usual. It was seeing the church members laugh and mock people while counting it in the office that soured my stomach. *especially* when we noted on ours it was for "church use only" not for their building fund. I was an alter boy and both parents worked there so I frequently blend in to the background and just listen in. Like I said, now I know it was just the people but the whole experience has been tinted through that lense.

Not sure what all the bickering here is about I just skipped over it.


It sure is fun watching the kids.we had 4 baptisms, the youngest was around 8. she had been diagnosed with leukemia at a early age. When she was in the hospital she told he mom don't worry Gods got this.

she just got back from church camp, she didn't want to go, she told her family she would but they had to go too church. She had probably 6 people there.

Another was was fruit from youth camp

one was a good friend of ours the wife and I new nothing about it it was a good thing and I'll leave it at that

and the last one was one of our lay pastors. I know that seams strange, but the way our church operates lay pastors serve for the purpose of the pastor. We all have different jobs and responsibilities

[Pine Baron]

Okay, I've stayed out of this thread because I had a hard time following everybody bickering and gaining absolutely no sense to most (not all) that was posted. For what it's worth, I believe the key to understanding the blessings that we receive vs. the works we may feel obligated to perform lies in understanding what UNCONDITIONAL love means. Get it?

[Blackwater]

Got it. They run strongly parallel, but are not necessarily always interlinked. But two things that run together as closely as works and blessings DO seem to be, at first glance, inextricably liinked. But not knowing their independence from each other CAN lead many to think they're being "punished" instead of merely "challenged." We serve as examples for all around us, and many find it easier to follow an example they see rather than mere words spoken to them. So it's crucial for many that they see examples of faith that is tested. THAT means MUCH more than all the preaching and teaching we can do, oftentimes.