Refacing a frizzen with D2 steel ?

[RU shooter]

I have read and seen pictures were guys have refaced a well worn or low sparking frizen with a harder higher carbon steel in one example it was a old thin file that was brazed on and contoured to match . While I do have some old files I also have some thin pieces of D2 steel from a project at work that would be just about the perfect thickness . My question is would D2 make a suitable steel for a good shower of sparks? It's fairly high in carbon content 1.5 % or a little more if I remember right , down side I'm thinking though is its almost a semi stainless steel as well unlike some other tool steels . Thoughts ?

Tim

[Tatume]

Hi RU,

Harden a piece and try to spark it by hand. If it will make a good fire starter, it will spark in your flintlock too.

Take care, Tom

[Plastikosmd]

I didn't know the answer, so I googled-fu-ed. this was a cool read on flint/steel and sparks and how it works, maybe a hint there
http://survivaltopics.com/flint-and-steel-what-causes-the-sparks/

[bedbugbilly]

Over the years, I've also seen frizziness "re-faced" by adding on a new striking face that sparks well. It's been a lot of years and I'm not up on steel anymore - but years ago, Dixie, etc. used to sell "Casenite" (I believe that was what it was called) to rehired the surfaces of a frizzen face.

Good advice given on taking a piece of what you have and trying to use it like a flint and steel - that should tell you if it would work or not. Let us know how it works out for you - we can all learn new things! :-)

[RU shooter]

Hi RU,

Harden a piece and try to spark it by hand. If it will make a good fire starter, it will spark in your flintlock too.

Take care, Tom

I'm far from a metallurgist even though I cut bend and roll form steel every day , but from what I read D2 is an air hardened tool steel so it should be hard already I assume ? the 3/4 inch slab I had to water jet was being used for a cut off die without any type of heat treat to it .

I'll try striking it with a flint after work today and see how it goes .

[Tatume]

D2 is typically shipped annealed, and can be machined when soft. It is then heated slowly to about 1000C and allowed to air cool, during which time it hardens. It must then be tempered.

[M-Tecs]

- but years ago, Dixie, etc. used to sell "Casenite" (I believe that was what it was called) to rehired the surfaces of a frizzen face.



EPA forced it off the market awhile back. I wish I still could find some.

[elmacgyver0]

Kasenit is available from Brownels, Midway etc.

[Tatume]

Not by that name.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/color-case-hardening/surface-hardening-compound-prod27119.aspx

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/119479/cherry-red-surface-hardening-compound-1-lb

[Tatume]

RU didn't mention the make of rifle that has the worn out frizzen. If it is a modern gun, it might be simpler just to replace the frizzen.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=frizzen

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/0/1/LOCK-SQA-FR-FR

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=l2a3rir61t6q80n1 8bnqctvai7&keywords=frizzen&x=0&y=0

[M-Tecs]

Not the same stuff. Kasenit used ferrocyanides. I have Cherry Red and it does not compare to the Kasenit I had from the 70's.

[RU shooter]

RU didn't mention the make of rifle that has the worn out frizzen. If it is a modern gun, it might be simpler just to replace the frizzen.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=frizzen

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/0/1/LOCK-SQA-FR-FR

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/advanced_search_result.php?osCsid=l2a3rir61t6q80n1 8bnqctvai7&keywords=frizzen&x=0&y=0 My lock still sparks although not as much as I think it should ,Its a TC but the frizzen thats on it is not an original TC or the lyman replacement . Was thinking about refacing sorta as an experiment as I have the materials and the time already .

[Col4570]

The last one I refaced was for a Shotgun as follows.I used a piece of Thin springsteel shaped to fit the contours of the Frizzen ,I then drilled 3 holes through both and riveted them together,I then hardened the lot by heating to cherry red then quenching in cold water.
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/001-10.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/001-10.jpg.html)

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/001-19.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/001-19.jpg.html)
another view.

[StrawHat]

Similar to Col4570, I have riveted a piece of steel from an old handsaw to 5 or 6 frizzens. I used more rivets but the same idea, shape, rivet, harden. They now make enough sparks so priming might not be needed.

Kevin

[Fly]

I don,t know I would recommend D-2 Tool steel. As the post above said D-2 comes annealed so it
can be machined. But D-2 can be hardend to 65 RW & that too hard. Yes it can be annealed, but
unless you know what your doing it,s a long slow process. I have made many stamping dies using
it. But I have seen many crack also.

I always sent the dies out to my heat treater & trusted him but still had a few problems.

JMOHOP Fly

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What is the meaning of "worn out"? If the frizzen has been worn too thin and is in danger-of cracking, I would rather reinforce it by silver soldering a new layer than riveting it. Or you could deposit a layer of special hardfacing welding rod, but for that you need the equipment and skill, and probably a minimum quantity of rods you will never use. I think hardening by quenching would be fine, but if you want to try an air hardening steel I think A-2 might be better than the relatively tougher D-2, but I think either will work.

If the thickness of the frizzen is good, and you have simply scraped through to soft steel which won't spark, the best remedy is to reharden. This can be done, in the only way the original flintlock makers had, by heating it red for a considerable period in a closed vessel of animal charcoal. As long as the vessel is properly closed, bonemeal from a garden shop will turn into animal charcoal. The stories you hear of special mixtures, binding with wire, instant transfer to the quenching bath etc. etc., are just about getting an attractive mottled pattern. You don't need that on a frizzen, where burning powder will spoit the colours anyway, and letting it cool and then reheating and quenching will harden it just as well.

A deeper hard layer will be produced by modern compounds, or at least could before the content was limited. I believe one of the main ingredient in Casenite was potassium ferricyanide, although colour means that isn't all it was. You can buy potassium ferricyanide on eBay, though you must beware of the ferrocyanide, which is different. Only I wouldn't try to remove residue with strong acid, as it can then evolve hydrogen cyanide, Nazism's old friend Zyklon B. In other circumstances it is probably a little less toxic than our old friend ethyl alcohol. That may sound a great leap of logic to count upon, but for comparison, it is quite hard to cross the bridge from water to hydrogen peroxide, H2O to H2O2, and the latter is vicious stuff when concentrated.

Kasenit sounds as if someone has done a deal with the defunct but registered Casenite brand. I have some Kasenit, and it worked, but I don't know how to test how deep it worked. It is worth searching for "case hardening compound" as well as those brands. There is some on eBay UK, and they would export. But it is a very expensive, albeit truthfully described and effective, if it turns out to be pure animal charcoal. You could always ask.

[gnoahhh]

Old formula Kasenit was wonderful stuff. I have a big can of it I have been using sparingly over the years for special projects. My dad rescued it out of my grand dad's shop, and the old man died in 1973 so that should be a clue as to how old it is. I rescued a fair number of frizzens with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

There is some useful information in the Wikipedia article. Among other things it says:

'Small items may be case-hardened by repeated heating with a torch and quenching in a carbon rich medium, such as the commercial products Kasenit / Casenite or "Cherry Red".'

Another snippet of information that surprises me is that it says bone isn't very effective, and horn is much better. I know bone turnings from the turned bone button industry was used in Birmingham by the gun trade, but maybe a mixture of this less active carburizing agent with, say, horn turnings from the same industry, helped produce the mottling.

Some of the very bright modern colour case hardening we see is actually cyaniding, done by immersing in sodium cyanide - molten I believe. I've seen single shotgun receivers of what think of as the H&R type (though I don't remember the maker) which were done in oddly regular coloured stripes this way. Nitriding involves very hot ammonia gas. But of these substances are very dangerous indeed - far more so than potassium ferricyanide.

have some horn dust from buttplate making, and bits of sheep horn from making a couple of shepherd's crooks, which I can reduce to chips with my electric planer. When next I have a need I will try horn plus ferricyanide. But there is a current thread on rifle stocking in which someone expressed worries - illusory I think - that grinding a horn buttplate to size would produce an unpleasant smell. There is nothing illusory about case-hardening with it. Even an airtight box ought to be opened outdoors. I'd barbecue it, with a forced draught, and it wouldn't be an expensive barbecue.

Less surprising is that starting with pure carbon won't case-harden steel. It is reminiscent of the fact that despite the formulae with C in it you see, you can't make gunpowder with pure carbon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case-hardening

[Fly]

There is still case hardening compounds * more likely always will.
https://www.amazon.com/CHERRY-RED-TR-CHER-1-HARDENING-COMPOUND/dp/B00DHMIY1K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468526378&sr=8-1&keywords=case+hardening

Fly

[seagiant]

Hi,
I've never done a frizzen but see nothing wrong with simple carbon steel.

D2 is a die steel and if memory serves is air-hardened (as mentioned) but I THINK it calls for "heat soaks and ramping up of temps in the heat treat process?

Why knifemakers have electric heat treat ovens with timers! (SS is similar!)

I have always used plain carbon steel (1095,5160, W2, O1, ect.) and see nothing wrong with it for this application, and is a LOT easier to form and heat treat!

[elmacgyver0]

Right about the Kasenit, didn't think it was that long ago I ordered it. Glad I still have most of the can left!

[Eddie2002]

Last year I was working on a Investarms flintlock that had a bad frizen, it was soft and the flint only hit the bottom 1/4 of the frizen no matter how it was set. Ended up buying a Seidler frizen as a raw casting and with just a little work made it fit and boy what an improvement with the action. Was able to move the mounting hole just enough to get the flint up on the top third of the frizen and got a great hot spark. Oil tempered it with ATF fluid, best modification ever for that lock.
Just putting it out there that it might be easier with better results to replace a frizen instead of resurfacing it. 172302
Here's a picture of the new frizen installed.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, replacement has worked well for you. An alternative might have been to bend the frizzen slightly. If it was too soft, and scratching the back revealed softness there as well, the very slight amount of bending could probably be done cold, but one of hardened steel would have to be annealed and rehardened. My guess is that that is what most modern ones are made of, since investment castings can be made about as easily from one steel as another.

Case-hardened steel would be the better of the same annealing and rehardening treatment. I have seen a Martini lever that only had fine surface crazing from rather more bending, and that was on the side of the bend that was stretched, not compressed. But I would definitely want to reharden a valuable antique.

[mooman76]

They have discussed this on another board I frequent. In fact it was just brought up. I don't know about D2 steel but it went back and forth between hardening or adding a piece of hardened steel. Seems like half chose hardening the frizzen and others had used a thin file silver soldered to the frizzen or even a good hack saw blade. A few chose to just replace the frizzen but that would depend on how good it was to start with. Not sure how you would do it but if you can figure out if it sparks good with flint before you do the task.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/300632/

[Fly]

D-2 is oil hardened not air hardened. A-2 is air hardened . But as the post above said the Knife
carbon steels as O1 or 1095 & so on would work fine. But there again a case hardener would
be the easy way to go, if it were me. Sorry I had a brain fade on D-2 it is Air harden. For some reason I was thinking 4130 as oil harden.
http://shop.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/color-case-hardening/surface-hardening-compound-sku083000033-27119-52952.aspx?cm_mmc=PPC-_-Itwine-_-Google-_-083-000-033&gclid=CjwKEAjwk6K8BRDM3aCSkdCtzSQSJAA3Vf385ixxpezv dIOVH0XTctQefXUfcfz9lZ6czShxpH9btxoCZNrw_wcB
Fly

[MarkP]

I am not sure about frizens but D2 is a high carbon high chromium air hardening tool steel; higher wear resistance as compared to A2 but with less toughness (ability to absorb energy) need to austentize at a higher temperature than O1 and or plain high carbon steels (1850 F range). High wear resistance due to the formation a chromium carbine nodules.

[RU shooter]

Ok You guys are confusing me ! Lol Either way air of oil hardened it's still a higher carbon steel of more wear wear resistance than what most frizens are made of so I'm gonna give it a go as a mock up anyways I tried a flint against it and seems to spark so for a trial Im just going to rough shape a piece I have that's about 1/16 thick do a quick epoxy job to the frizen face and see what happens if less than ideal I can simply heat it up with a heat gun and remove it .

[country gent]

D-2 is one of the harder tool steels to machine and grind but is impact resistant and does harden nicely. With correct heats and times it can be hardened and annealed back to where you want it. Im not sure I wouldnt form and fit it then lightly harden it some. Shoot for around 50 rc thats wear resistant and not to brittle. Depending on thickness of the new face even case hardening may go completely thru. But with D-2 I wouldnt worry about case hardening. I would refit to match the old frizzen after hardening anneal and silver solder together. A thin even filmn of solder and some flux clamp together and heat to solder melts and bonds.When polished the polihed edge will have a thin even silver line around the edge making it kind of distinct lookin. The big thing is getting the surface you need to produce good sparks before hardening it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a 24ga hammer gun, about as good as Belgium made them, which is in as near mint condition as you can expect of a 1926 gun. It came from an auction in Australia, and my theory is that some Australian got it there before discovering that 20ga cartridges wouldn't fit. The number 24 is prominently inlaid in silver, but had tarnished to almost match the bluing. That will happen with silver solder too, and adjacent to where black powder is burned, it would be hard to prevent it.