Titegroup- should I look elsewhere?

[Jon.Moore]

Dear Friends, I am not new to casting, but I am trying new stuff! My question goes like this: I have an AR-15 in 9MM, with a large scope, shoot RCBS 115 RN water dropped WW lead, with White Label 2500 lube, sized to .357". My load has been (friends suggestion) Titegroup powder at 3.6 to 3.7 (LEE Powder disk) From a sand bag rest at 25 yards, the best I can get is about 3-1/2" to 4-1/2" groups. When I shoot jacketed bullets, I can shrink that group to less than 2"!! If I increase the load to the next disk "hole"-- the group really flies apart!! What the heck? Should I look into different powders- what would be a good load? I'm not a speed freak, just want a good accurate load that kicks the action open! Thanks!! Jon

[tazman]

My experience with a 9mm carbine was to improve accuracy with cast, I had to use a heavier boolit. Mine would not group well with boolits below 135 grains.
It shot it's best with 147-155 grain boolits. These weights equaled the accuracy of jacketed in my carbine.

[DerekP Houston]

Sounds like you need to drill and screw into that cavity that is "slightly" too large and make it able to adjust the powder drop down. Lee auto disks are great but sometimes you need a charge between the 2 sizes you get from the disk.

[OS OK]

Group sizes can be adjusted with a '+ or -' of only a few tenths of a grain and you can continue to chase it down in those increments...that'll be rough to do in that throw.

[FergusonTO35]

I would try a slower burning powder given that you probably have a 16" barrel. Something like Unique, Universal, or SR-4756 should be just the ticket. With the slugs you are using, what you are seeing may be as good as it gets. A boolit with more of a bearing shank like the Lee designs could do the trick.

[Jon.Moore]

Thanks for all the info! I saw some thing about "Titegroup" being very picky and hard to use exactly,, had a thought my "Lee Auto disk" may be to blame also. What about "Silhouette" powder? I know nothing about it, is it slow burning? Supposed to be good in 9MM.. Thoughts? Thanks, Jon

[runfiverun]

silhouette is too slow.

you could try a couple of other things before moving on too much.
you have a good baseline load right now, try building on it.
size to 358 and try a little harder alloy.
for my 9's I use my normal ww alloy cut with soft lead and some tin added, then I mix it with lino-type and air cool.
then size to 358.
I run my 9mm pistols like a small 45 acp [bout 900-950 fps] since they kill the paper every time I pull the trigger.
you could also just try backing the titegroup load down .2grs at a time and see how that goes.

[Scharfschuetze]

That RCBS 115 grain boolit has shot well in my 9mm pistols when using COWWs, so I would think that it should do well in your carbine.

I like the suggestions posted above in regards to using a slower powder. I get good results from Unique and 231 in the 9mm, but of course that is in pistols. I use a lot of Tightgroup, but in lower pressure straight wall cases like the 38 Special and reduced loads in the magnum revolver rounds. In those applications it works a treat.

With my 9mm pistols, I size to .358" for best accuracy on average. Perhaps a slightly larger size might also help (or hurt) so I'd also give that a try.

My only experience with carbine length 9mm weapons is with sub machine guns. What do owners expect of accuracy from the various 9mm semi-auto carbines with 16" barrels like the OPs weapon?

[Sasquatch-1]

How does the rifle shoot with factory loads?

[FergusonTO35]

I would think it should shoot at least as well as a good .22 rifle. Fast powders like Titegroup and Bullseye can actually produce less velocity out of a carbine because they finish burning before the bullet exits the bore. That could very well be happening here.

[Jon.Moore]

FergusonTO35.. so if I use a slower powder like SR-4756, would I have a problem shooting this load in a Glock 19-? Would all the powder burn in the case as it should? I shot the same powder load-- increased to 4.2 GR's (Titegroup) with Berry's 115 RN, and it shoots much better, almost cover the group with a quarter.. This is why I think I have a problem with my lead bullets being undersize, where the 115 jackets will retain their tighter fit to barrel. This being said, I'm sizing to .357... but do they remain .357 after loading and slight taper crimp? I plan to switch up to heavier bullets 124gr's+ when cash flow increases! Thanks for all replys!!! Also will try powder coating my bullets, to help hold size..
I like your idea-- the faster powder could be the problem.. will change powder soon!

[Soundguy]

Thanks for all the info! I saw some thing about "Titegroup" being very picky and hard to use exactly,, had a thought my "Lee Auto disk" may be to blame also. What about "Silhouette" powder? I know nothing about it, is it slow burning? Supposed to be good in 9MM.. Thoughts? Thanks, Jon

Titegroup is fine, I'm using it almost solely in mid caliber handguns, with cast projectiles, with great results.

[tacotime]

I would say if you have tried a few increments up and down the published load range for TG and no joy, try another powder.

Having tried TG in about every pistol and boolit combo I could, I found it just could not be made to be the best performer in every gun. On a couple of combos, I tried all the TG levels, then found a 700x load was way better on one, and another, WW231 was much better and old Bullseye is often better. That said, TG is king for some people and some combos!