Hunting with a 44 Mag Lever

[Scrumbag]

Hi folks,

As a newbie caster I'm looking for advice. Can anyone tell me if it is possible to make a cast bullet for hunting 44 mag that will have an ME of 1700ftlb. (Legal requirement)

Many thanks,

Scrumbag

[Nueces]

One data point - a 225 grain bullet would require a muzzle velocity of 1845 fps to reach 1700 ft-lbs.

For your own calculations, multiply bullet weight in grains times the square of muzzle velocity in fps, then divide by 450,435 to get muzzle energy in ft-lbs.

[Scrumbag]

One data point - a 225 grain bullet would require a muzzle velocity of 1845 fps to reach 1700 ft-lbs.

For your own calculations, multiply bullet weight in grains times the square of muzzle velocity in fps, then divide by 450,435 to get muzzle energy in ft-lbs.

Hi Nueces, yep, even have a spreadsheet that does it. What I'm just wondering is, do I, as a caster, have a hope of making a bullet that will stand the pressures / velocity required

Thanks,

Scrummy

[Cowboy_Dan]

Out of a rifle you should be able to get to 1800 fps or better before you need a gascheck. A 255 gr boolit only needs about 1750 fps to make your energy requirement, so yes you should be able to do it.

[runfiverun]

dang that's a lot of velocity.
maybe something a bit heavier at a slightly slower velocity would meet the numbers?
I know that increasing the velocity will make the "numbers" look good, but somehow doubt a 200 gr boolit at warp speed is going to be more effective than a 240 at 1400 fps. [about what I use for deer and elk in my 44 BTW]


J.M.O.
getting a cast boolit up to speed isn't the problem.
it's that 1800 fps is pushing things to the full maximum in the 44 mag no matter what bullet/boolit you use.. [and a carbine might not make it]
plus I have watched velocity and accuracy become much harder to attain at much over 1650 or so.

I'd bet just about all of the factory rounds out there don't even come close.

[Fenring]

25gr of H110 with a 240gr bullet should do around 1800fps for 1700ft/lbs. Assuming it's safe in your rifle!

My own loads with 275 and 315gr cast loads are around 1600 odd ft/lbs.

To get a cast bullet at that speed, it will either need to be very hard and fit the bore perfectly, or use a softer bullet with a gas check and again, perfect fit and good lube.

So many variables however, if such a thing will shoot in your rifle.

Ideally, you will want a bullet soft enough and of such a design that it will get some sort of expansion so a softer bullet with a gas check and a wide flat nose. Assuming you aren't hunting big and heavy animals that need a yard of soft tissue penetration. :D

[RP]

I have been check for hunting permission and other things but have never been asked if my ammo was strong enough are they going to test your reloads ? But I do not live in the UK. I hate to say it but it may be better to buy ammo and avoid the conflict and not have to prove my reloads are up to standards.

[waksupi]

Slow and heavy wins the race.

[Fenring]

Not generally the energy race though.

[Screwbolts]

A good read, written by Fenring. :-)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?310592-A-few-more-swine-with-the-96-44-and-Lyman-Devastator

[44man]

It alludes me why energy is used to qualify a gun. Figured by political hacks with no knowledge.
I don't think there is an animal in the UK that a .44 will not kill fast. Still comes down to the boolit and it's construction.
My 330 gr .44 boolit from my revolver has 1269 FP and 6' of animal is nothing with all torn up inside.
Even my .475 with a 420 gr has just 1647 FP and nothing will be on it's feet hit with it. I swear it will kill four deer side by side.
Gov't creep is the problem, hard enough for our friends over there to even own a gun.
Some states here that only a shotgun could be used because of flat land and worries about slug travel are allowing some pistols and rifles now but they have useless requirements. Even wardens don't know but have to follow a book.
It is not easy and might not be safe to get a .44 to that much energy let alone a boolit to take it. The case is really small.

[Hickory]

Slow and heavy wins the race.

This has been my experience too. Elmer was right.

[runfiverun]

Elmer went a little overboard.
I like medium and medium.
I dunno why, but mediocre loads with nominal or just over middle weight bullets does just fine for me.
cast and jacketed it seems to work.

[Scrumbag]

Thanks for the info folks, looks like I'll need to do some more digging and investigating things like gas checks.

The 1700 ftlbs is a pain as it means even the venerable 30-30 doesn't have enough energy to meeting the ME threshold in a lot of loadings. (And there is no way that that 30-30 isn't a good deer getter. White tail and Fallow deer are close in size: works for one, works for the other I feel).

We have a silly law in Scotland on a mimimum MV of 2450fps so quite a few 303 loadings aren't legit in Scotland, 9.3x62 in all bar pretty much 232gr loadings isn't fast enough and the 45-70 is apparently no good for deer either....

[Scrumbag]

Just been looking at Buffalo Bore. Apparently their Deer grenade will do the following with a 240gr bullet:

➤ 1935 fps -- Marlin 1894 20 inch
➤ 1897 fps -- Marlin 1894 18 inch
➤ 1871 fps -- Marlin 1894 16.5 inch
➤ 1578 fps -- Ruger Super Blackhawk 5.5 inch
➤ 1535 fps -- Ruger Redhawk 5.5 inch
➤ 1466 fps -- S&W MT Gun 4 inch

So, out of a lever action all will be legal. Any ideas of how to recreate the performance?

Or would I be better going heavier and slightly slower?

ATB,

Scrummy

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Scumbag,

I am currently in the process of developing loads for my RUGER 77/44. I am using a Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet from an Accurate Mold, made by Tom in Utah.

My best load at this point with the 275 - 280gr bullet is just over 1700fps and using the formula given in the second post I meet your needed requirements with 1764 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

This bullet is made for the Marlin .444, so it should work just fine through your lever gun.

Little question, this WILL be a worthy deer stomper at 100yds.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Scrumbag]

25gr of H110 with a 240gr bullet should do around 1800fps for 1700ft/lbs. Assuming it's safe in your rifle!

My own loads with 275 and 315gr cast loads are around 1600 odd ft/lbs.

To get a cast bullet at that speed, it will either need to be very hard and fit the bore perfectly, or use a softer bullet with a gas check and again, perfect fit and good lube.

So many variables however, if such a thing will shoot in your rifle.

Ideally, you will want a bullet soft enough and of such a design that it will get some sort of expansion so a softer bullet with a gas check and a wide flat nose. Assuming you aren't hunting big and heavy animals that need a yard of soft tissue penetration. :D

Thanks Fenrig, may I ask what bullet you use?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Using the Wide Flat Nose bullet profile in the .44 or .45 caliber WILL get er done without expansion.

That bullet profile is highly effective. If the bullet expands a bit, so be it, but it is not needed.

First in order of importance is proper bullet to bore fit. That will go a long ways in helping to develop a satisfactory cast bullet hunting load.

I'd suggest avoiding .459 dia. unless slugging your bore has shown that to be a good starting place.

I have sized my .44 bullets at .431 for years and that is what I'm using for my 77/44.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Scrumbag]

Right, I shall need the rifle first ;)

[robg]

The rules are a pain but why not use a lighter boolit so you can speed things up .

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

The heavier bullet will give better results in many ways, especially if penetration is a consideration.

CDOC

[Gunnut 45/454]

Though I don't have a 44 Mag I agree with those that have chimed in go with the 240 gr as it seems to be the bullet for the 44! I shoot 45LC myself an the sweet spot for my 45LC Rifle seems to be the Lee 255gr! An it can be pushed to 1600-1700fps but I don't as it doesn't need to too do the work on most critters. At 1500 fps it will shoot clean through most anything I want to shoot!

[44man]

I worry about a hard boolit going too fast. They produced the worst for me.
It is why I hate ME figures, a FMJ can have a tremendous ME but is a sharp stick on game.
From what I have seen a WFN driven very fast will move tissue out of the way from the pressure wave off the meplat. A lot of book energy but no transmission into the animal.
Now that might work in an elephant or buf and a .50 BMG should be reckoned with. But notice most solids for big game are RN. The BMG has so much velocity and energy it explodes.
The ideal velocity from my .44 revolvers has been at 1300 fps or a touch more, with hard boolits.
A hard .45 boolit of 320 to 335 gr at 1160 fps has never lost a deer either. It kills faster then the same weights from a 45-70 at 1630 fps.
The quest for more velocity and energy can bite your butt. There is no substitute for a proper bullet/boolit for what you shoot.Too many animals have been killed for hundreds of years with very small guns and ML's with RB's with sad book energy figures.
If a boolit is too fast, it needs only a little expansion so it will slow going through and transmit energy. I have come to believe in the DWELL time idea. Actually a slower boolit will benefit from some expansion. Just don't get too much. Best is always 2 holes and any energy lost is moot.
I wish the powers that be hunted instead of sitting at a table, reading books.
Unfortunately, they don't know what end poops.
I often wonder if they just don't want to stop you from hunting and owning a gun.
I can only say a .44 mag revolver will kill anything so don't think more velocity will improve it. IT IS YOUR BOOLIT.
Nothing I have done testing has shown what a boolit does in an animal except the animal itself.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Interesting 44man,

Your .45 is going to have a hard time killing a deer faster then the bang/flop I typically see with my 465gr Wide Flat Nose bullet fired at 1650fps from my 45/70. This I got to see.

My one experience with a WFN at a higher velocity, 2300fps muzzle, was something I don't want to repeat due to the huge wound channel it left. Pressure wave, ya probably, but it simply pushed the tissue and bone out the back side, not mushed just gone, leaving a huge wound channel.

Once was enough, the 465gr at 1650fps is just sooooooooooo much better!

Hope to take a deer this Fall with the .44 rifle and a 275gr WFN cast at 1600 - 1700fps.

Will see how that goes.

If my son ever gets enough time from work to hunt with his .444 and that same bullet, we will see how the higher velocity preforms. That will be interesting. I hope that the slightly smaller meplat with the .431 - .44 bullet gives a lesser wound channel then the .459 - 355gr WFN did at 2300fps.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[44man]

I have no experience with super high speeds and hard lead but even air cooled WW metal will expand. I water drop to 20-22 BHN. But have no idea what real fast and hard will do.
Chances are you have some expansion but you did not mention the alloy.
I have smoked deer with a softer alloy and lost meat with my 45-70, it was too much. The hard part is a fast kill without smoking them.
Keep me informed.

[Scrumbag]

Thanks for all the advice and discussion folks. So, of a roughly 200gr mould what would people recommend?

[Scrumbag]

Also, need to pick a rifle!

[TCLouis]

Do you still have mastodons on some the estates there?

[44man]

Too strange to figure! We have shotgun states that now allow certain calibers but put restrictions on the case, hoping to not have a boolit go too far, then the added rule for expanding bullets. If they knew how far a .44 can travel, they would outlaw it too.
Powers that be can't tie their shoes. To allow a caliber, then want more energy then it can do does not compute. They just don't know what it takes to kill an animal.
One time on a public hunting area I was shooting at rocks on a RR bank at 500 yards with my BH, .44. I over shot once and guys came to tell me I cut a branch way above them where they were camped. It was over 800 yards. Now there was no camping allowed there so there should have been nobody for miles, signs all over-NO CAMPING. It was scary! Yes the little .44 is something else.

[Scrumbag]

Mastadons would be fun to hunt for I feel. I've just waiting for global warming to bring the hippo, crocs and bufalo back personally....

[popper]

I'm confused. MV or ME restrictions? I did a spreadsheet that does PF (momentum) E vs fps & grains to find peak performance. Does factory 44mag meet the requirements?

[Scrumbag]

I'm confused. MV or ME restrictions? I did a spreadsheet that does PF (momentum) E vs fps & grains to find peak performance. Does factory 44mag meet the requirements?

In England and Wales, we have an ME requirement.
In Scotland, they have a different ME requirement but there are also stipulations on MV.

(***** or SNAFU: You decide....)

Some factory 44 Mag will do it.

[Ramjet-SS]

Ruger 77/44 bolt action is formidable weapon when loaded with a 310 grain GC RF from Lee. Loaded over 17.5 grains will yeild you 1300 FPS.

A 240 grain SWC CG Keith style will get you close to 1800 with 24.0 grains WW 296 .

Both the above loads if cast to a Lyman #2 alloy will kill up to and including Grizzly Bear and Moose. The above loads will drive through both shoulders of wild pig with live weight of 400 lbs.

Another gun suggestion would be a TC Encore Rifle with custom Barrel that you can get a faster rate of twist so you can run heavy weight bullets at medium speeds with accuracy. The Over all length on the TC rifles with a longer barrel can be shorter than a standard actioned rifle.

A good place to Shop for the assecories and the barrels is http://http://www.eabco.net/EABCO-Accuracy-Barrels_c_2893.html

[Jake70]

Thanks for all the advice and discussion folks. So, of a roughly 200gr mould what would people recommend?

The 214gr LEE SWC would be a decent choice. I think it would perform better than their 200gr RNFP for hunting, and it's quite accurate to boot. Your going to have to push those bullets pretty hard to get to 1800 ft-lbs of energy though. For the 214gr, your going to have to push it to 1950 FPS. Your goal might be easier with 240gr bullets.


Also, need to pick a rifle!

Whatever you pick, I would get something with at least a 20" barrel since muzzle energy is a concern. 24" would be even better, but they're not as handy to use to me as the 20". Can you own a lever action? It's hard to beat a Marlin 1894.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Just out today to do some testing with the 77/44. Haven't gone through all the info as yet, but this is what I saw from a 310gr Wide Flat Nose from an Lead Bullet Technology (LBT) mold.

I wish this bullet would function through the 77/44 magazine, but it is too long.

I used it in my RUGER RedHawk and got 1300fps from the 5.5" barrel. Today, from the longer RUGER 77/44 barrel a 5 shot average was 1516.6fps.

Same load as I'd used in the handgun, 19gr of AA#9

I needed to hand feed the rounds one at a time, but wanted to see how it grouped and what kind of velocity it reached.

The bulk of my tests today was with a 275 - 280gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) bullet from an Accurate Mold. This bullet is made for the .444, but feeds and functions just fine in the RUGER.

The lighter bullet was in the 1700fps +/- range.

Didn't group as well as I'd like, but it would put the hurt on 100yd deer for sure.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Fenring]

The Lee 310gr FNGC will work in the 77/44 - works a treat in my 96/44.

20gr of ADI 2205 / H110 = 1500fps over the chrono. :)

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

??????????????? What ?????????????????????

Cdoc

[44man]

??????????????? What ?????????????????????

Cdoc
Did not fit the one I shot either. Bad point with the Ruger magazine.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

My "??? WHAT ????" referred to a post that must have been deleted.

It was just a long list of letters and numbers all run together.

CDOC

[canuck4570]

mystery
I deleted my reply loaded with a pack of number…. funny thing I never subscribe to the thread or did any reply mmmmmmm who knows…..

[Scrumbag]

The rules are a pain but why not use a lighter boolit so you can speed things up .

Yes, went down this route.

So far trying the Hornady XTP 200gr. Not bad result but feeling could be better.

Going to try the 210 gr Sierra JHC next, again with H110. (Rifle prefers the 240gr to 180gr PPU FMJFP I've shot so thinking the heavier bullet might be an answer).

Also to my eye, the bearing surface on the JHC looks a bit longer so might not be a bad thing.

Still wondering if I can get a gas checked bullet at 2,000 fps for a hunting load.

ATB,

Scrummy

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Talking cast bullets here rather then "J" bullets, but I tested during load development 175/180gr cast to the low 1900s from a little RUGER 77/44 rifle. Much better accuracy came at about 1750fps and the two deer I've taken with the rifle both were dead where they stood.

It is kind of like with the 45/70 and people using light for caliber/cartridge bullets in an attempt to flatten the rainbow like trajectory, and yes, I have been there and tried that, if that is the goal with higher velocity and/or lighter bullets, there are just much better cartridges available.

Again with cast bullets and a 45/70, the results with a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast at 1650fps have been ever so much better then with the 355gr WFN at 2300fps.

Sometimes, light bullet weight, cast or jacketed and higher velocity have little advantage to heavier and slower.

To each his own, just be safe and enjoy!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Scrumbag]

Crusty,

You make many good points. And if I wasn’t trying to make 1,700 ft lbs muzzle energy id happily go for the heavier, slower bullet but in 44 mag it seems the heavier bullets won’t make the ME

[Cast_outlaw]

Well scrumbad according to the calculator I have (link below) your bottom velocity for a 240gr is 1786fps makes exactly 1700ft lb for a cast I don’t have any published data dose that (that dose not mean there is none I just don’t have any) I did get a 240 over 1600 with Alliant reloader 7 in 44-40 but it has a little more capacity oh and yes the action on my gun for it is strong enough for that and it is under max pressure only just but it is so with the higher pressure capabilities of the 44 mag it should be possible best of luck

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/bullet-kinetic-energy.php

[Scrumbag]

Hi Cast Outlaw,

Yes the got the formula, my issue is finding data that will get a 240gr. 44 mag to that speed.

ATB,

Scrummy

[Petander]

It's pushing the limits for sure.

Vihtavuori N110 will give you the max.

We have energy limits too, 1250 ftlbs @ 100 meters for whitetail. Impossible to load 357 mag carbine to that, 50 meters is possible with stupid light boolits but well.. we are required to use a 243 at least. These energy rules always prefer light,fast bullets by nature of physics laws. Finnish whitetails just don't die with a 357. That 1250 ftlbs/100m is around 2000 ftlbs / muzzle I guess. Really bad bc:s here with these boolits,though.

While I'm in the "more gun is better" -league, some of these energy rules make no sense to me. Like a typical factory 45-70 ammo, not moose legal in Finland. Not enough energy, 1500 ftlbs required @ 100 m.

I would try N110 if you want to push. It gives 1875 fps in a 20" 357 mag Rossi with 170 grainers with normal OAL,well within CIP. But only halfway whitetail legal, energy-wise.

[Scrumbag]

Hi Petander,

Our laws are just on Muzzle Energy fortunately.

It seems from published data that the way to achieve 1700ftlbs at the muzzle is to use 200gr or 210gr jacketed bullets driven fairly fast. I can't find data from a source I trust that gives me enough velocity. I can get into the high 1600 ftlbs with 240gr bullets but nothing quite hits the limit.

I've used the Hodgdon H110 data and Hornady 200gr XTPs and have some Sierra 210gr JHC I will try next. These do meet the ME requirement with H110 as published. The 200gr XTP give OK accurancy but I have a feeling the 210 might be better.

My rifle certainly prefers 240gr factory ammo to 180gr so suspect that's the way to go.

Scrummy

[Petander]

H110 is good max powder,too. 180 will get your ftlbs. I would use jacketed for deer though...

Here is 240 Lee / Vihtavuori N110 compressed to madness,as an example for what NOT to do:

https://i.postimg.cc/LXS7zbQ7/IMG-20191201-142154.jpg

It's most probably not going to happen with a 240 bullets. QL estimates 357 mag really well with N110, my chronoed velocities match good. Just like 45-70 and 500 that I load cast quite a lot.

[Petander]

Well here you go,240 loaded longer OAL... But only for certain,strong guns.

I wouldn"t try this at home. I shoot a 45-70 and 300 WM,grouse to moose.

https://i.postimg.cc/25HTMrQN/IMG-20191201-151442-803.jpg

[beltfed]

FWIW<
I shot my second last deer with my Orig Win '92, 44WCF
Load was 200gr 429434 HP over 22 gr 4227. Clocks about 1350fps.
About like the original BP loads
One shot thru Heart, out the other side , One Kill.
Deer went about 60-70 yards and dropped dead.
It did the job.
But not like my orig M86 / 457483-385grFP clocking 1750fps
Or my 358 Win, 358218,250 gr Paper Patched , clocking 2350fps
over my Oehler 33
beltfed/arnie

[Norske]

When you shop for a rifle, pay attention to the rifling twist rate. My Super Blackhawk revolvers 1 in 18" twist) love the Lee 310gr bullet, but my Marlin 1894 with its 1 in 38" twist doesn't.

[Scrumbag]

Yeah i understand some of the Winchesters have 1:38" barrels or such and therefore not great for shooting heavier bullets.

My Chiappa is 1:20

[Scrumbag]

Petander, I wonder what powder Buffalo Bore are using. Also what the extraction is like?

Sounds like they are seating the bullet a fair way out of the case if too long for the Henry

[Tripplebeards]

Petander, I wonder what powder Buffalo Bore are using. Also what the extraction is like?

Sounds like they are seating the bullet a fair way out of the case if too long for the Henry


And my guess is they probably don’t group very well in most guns at that velocity. I don’t think they even list what they’ve sized the bullets at either. Imo it’s just a marketing gimmick for someone that doesn’t cast bullets and reload.

[AlaskaMike]

I haven't seen it mentioned, and I apologize if I've missed it, but with the use of those 200 or 210 gr. JHPs I would be concerned that they may be intended to expand at .44 special velocities, and would simply explode at .44 magnum carbine velocity.

Also, I don't know if Alliant 300mp powder is available in the UK, but it appears it can get better velocities with safe pressures than H110. If it's available there, that might be something to look into.

[onelight]

44 mag factory 240jhp can explode from a rifle on deer hunting buddy put one in the shoulder of a medium size white tail , when we peeled the hide it had a fist size cavity right under point of impact part of the core about 135 grains worth was found in under the skin on the off hip he ran about 75 yards no blood trail.
Yup it worked , but expanding pistol bullets at rifle velocities are not a good choice.

[kavemankel]

I have had no issue using 44 Cal. 310g WNFP GC loads in my 77/44 magazines.
These were commercial True Shot.
I do not have a mold for this heavy of a projectile but want one bad. Puts the hurt on pigs, but I haven't got a deer with one.

[lcclower]

I had a '94 Marlin in .44 Mag, 38" twist, micro groove, it would just barely shoot inside 12 inches at 100 yards, slugging the barrel showed it needed a .432 bullet. Starting loads with cast bullet, mold shimmed out with aluminum tape (RCBS 2-Cavity Bullet Mold 44-250-K 44 Caliber (430 Diameter) 250 Grain Keith Type) and sized .433 still shot about a foot at 100. Bore scope showed the barrel was egg shaped under the roll marks and under the dovetail cuts. Rebarreled with a Ballard rifled barrel, slugged .430, loaded with the same bullet (cast with tape removed) sized at .430 grouped about 6 inches. Tightened every screw on the rifle, never did get any better, sold it on gunbroken.
A month later, .30-30, 160 gr soft lead with notebppk paper wrap, 10 gr, Unique, hit a hog broadsides just below the ear and scattered brains out the other.
I'd not encourage fooling with '94 in 44 mag. 444 Marlin, 45/70, yeah. Longer bullets, faster twists. Don't have any experience with the bolt actions in 44 mag.

[Scrumbag]

Hi folks,

Sorry for bringing back a Zombie thread CV19, closures of ranges and travel restrictions here has made getting on with load development and testing a bit difficult.

I have developed a 210gr JHC load with H110 and not bad on paper at 50 yds.

I was more recently thinking, Barnes has load data for the 200gr and 225gr XPB being shot out of 444 Marlin at far great velocities than I could get out of a 44 mag carbine. Wonder if it would be worth a try...

Still is an excuse to by some N110 or Ramshot Enforcer ;)

[robg]

the lockdown is a pain here too .got a few loads to sort out for my 45-70 and 357 mag but cant try them out .

[Scrumbag]

the lockdown is a pain here too .got a few loads to sort out for my 45-70 and 357 mag but cant try them out .

I hear you, Rob. My folks are in N Wales so I understand some of the Welsh lockdown issues.

Scrummy