The Christian ethic

[Blackwater]

The Christian belief is founded on belief in Christ, and probably best summed up in, "Believe on the Son, Jesus Chrst, and thou shalt be saved." But its ethic is the proceedures it applies to pursuing the execution of what our Lord admonished and advised us to do. It's about HOW we apply what we glean from the Word. And that varies from individual to individual Christian. How could it not, when the Bible gets ever bigger and more intricate and complex, the more we study it? This is the great challenge for us here and now. And our ethic has more to do with HOW we apply what we've managed to get from our experience and our reading of the Word.

So what IS the "Christian ethic," and is there even one at all, really? Is it something that varies from Christian to Christian, or can it be summarized in a brief, scintilating line or two? Catholics have their version, quite specifically stated, but I can't quote it from memory (sorry about that), so if some of you who are Catholic would provide it here, I'd be appreciative. I'll recognize it when I see it but can't quote it, what with being Baptist by denomination.

But the word "ethic" is defined my old Webster's New Collegiate dictionary as: "1. the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation; 2. a) a set of moral principles or values; b) a thory or system of moral values; c) the principles of conduct governing an individual.

In other words, it kind'a covers a lot of ground, when you start to try to "define" a single, universal Christian ethic. Do any of you know of one, even if it only covers most of Christianity and not necessarily all? I've been thinking that the Golden Rule might be as close as I can come on my end of the issue, but that seems awfully slight for such a big and important issue. This is something I've never read about or studied, so this post is a question where I'm hoping for some edification from the more thoroughly studied and infomed than I am on this. Who cares to contribute or comment?

[Ickisrulz]

What you have asked is not a very complex thing nor is it a mystery. Jesus said the most important thing is loving God and the second most important is loving your neighbor.

Loving God means putting him first when it comes to our behavior and resulting decisions. Loving our neighbors means doing the best thing for them. These commands have little to do with feelings.

[ArrowJ]

And who is our neighbor? Jesus covered that as well. Our neighbors are our physical neighbors, our family, our friends, and even our enemies.

One example of something that is not our neighbor is an animal. There are ways that a Christian should treat animals, but "I'd kill as quickly to protect my dog as I would a family member" is an untenable position to defend based on scripture.

Indeed, there are many that error on the side of personal harm because the Christian ethic does not demand self preservation. I do not expect that of people, and believe it is well within the Christian ethic to defend one's life and even the lives of other human beings.

To expand that to our favorite pet is absurd and devalues a human soul to that of an animal (soulless or not). Even if animals do have souls (a proposition I find VERY difficult to defend) the Bible makes it clear that mankind is set apart as created in the image of God.

Sorry Blackwater, but that has been eating at me. Obviously I am not saying anything about your love of Jesus or your position in His Kingdom, but I question your theological support for that position.

Before I am accused of getting off track let me say I believe this is a very big issue of ethics in the American church. At the very least our raising of animals to human status is a symptom of deeper problems that many of us clearly see (right is wrong, men are women, etc.).

When it comes to animals we are blinded by years of Disney movies, emotions over intellect, devaluing of human life through widespread abortion, and twisting of truth into relativity.

I assume the tar and feathering will now commence :)

[Ickisrulz]

And who is our neighbor? Jesus covered that as well. Our neighbors are our physical neighbors, our family, our friends, and even our enemies.

One example of something that is not our neighbor is an animal. There are ways that a Christian should treat animals, but "I'd kill as quickly to protect my dog as I would a family member" is an untenable position to defend based on scripture.

Indeed, there are many that error on the side of personal harm because the Christian ethic does not demand self preservation. I do not expect that of people, and believe it is well within the Christian ethic to defend one's life and even the lives of other human beings.

To expand that to our favorite pet is absurd and devalues a human soul to that of an animal (soulless or not). Even if animals do have souls (a proposition I find VERY difficult to defend) the Bible makes it clear that mankind is set apart as created in the image of God.

Sorry Blackwater, but that has been eating at me. Obviously I am not saying anything about your love of Jesus or your position in His Kingdom, but I question your theological support for that position.

Before I am accused of getting off track let me say I believe this is a very big issue of ethics in the American church. At the very least our raising of animals to human status is a symptom of deeper problems that many of us clearly see (right is wrong, men are women, etc.).

When it comes to animals we are blinded by years of Disney movies, emotions over intellect, devaluing of human life through widespread abortion, and twisting of truth into relativity.

I assume the tar and feathering will now commence :)

Proverbs 12:10 "The godly care for their animals, but the wicked are always cruel."

God's people take care of that which God entrusted to them. This includes the wild and domesticated animals. This is in addition to loving our neighbors not instead of. There is nothing wrong with eating animals or tasking them with service, but no cruelty should be allowed.

It is awesome to think how God gave us animals as companions. Some people out there have very few people in their lives and are comforted by having a loyal pet. Animals aren't human beings, but they have a special place in many peoples' lives that seems to be God appointed.

[ArrowJ]

Proverbs 12:10 "The godly care for their animals, but the wicked are always cruel."

God's people take care of that which God entrusted to them. This includes the wild and domesticated animals. This is in addition to loving our neighbors not instead of. There is nothing wrong with eating animals or tasking them with service, but no cruelty should be allowed.

It is awesome to think how God gave us animals as companions. Some people out there have very few people in their lives and are comforted by having a loyal pet. Animals aren't human beings, but they have a special place in many peoples' lives that seems to be God appointed.

I agree with everything you said. What I am speaking of goes beyond this.

[Ickisrulz]

I agree with everything you said. What I am speaking of goes beyond this.

I figured so. I am not aware of what prompted your post though.

[ArrowJ]

I figured so. I am not aware of what prompted your post though.

I believe it is unethical based on Christian values to value animals as equal to humans, which incidentally lowers humans value to that of animals. You end up with Christians that consider the inherent worth of their pet as equal to that of human children for instance. This raises ethical dilemmas. A house is on fire and you have time to save a dog or a child. If both are of equal value it is acceptable to save the dog and les e the child as there is no difference? Some animals exhibit homosexual activity therefore it must be natural and is ok. I have heard both of these arguments personally from followers of Christ. You see a man beating your child to death and you end his life. You see a man beating your dog to death and you do the same. These are ethical questions.

[Blackwater]

And who is our neighbor? Jesus covered that as well. Our neighbors are our physical neighbors, our family, our friends, and even our enemies.

One example of something that is not our neighbor is an animal. There are ways that a Christian should treat animals, but "I'd kill as quickly to protect my dog as I would a family member" is an untenable position to defend based on scripture.

Indeed, there are many that error on the side of personal harm because the Christian ethic does not demand self preservation. I do not expect that of people, and believe it is well within the Christian ethic to defend one's life and even the lives of other human beings.

To expand that to our favorite pet is absurd and devalues a human soul to that of an animal (soulless or not). Even if animals do have souls (a proposition I find VERY difficult to defend) the Bible makes it clear that mankind is set apart as created in the image of God.

Sorry Blackwater, but that has been eating at me. Obviously I am not saying anything about your love of Jesus or your position in His Kingdom, but I question your theological support for that position.

Before I am accused of getting off track let me say I believe this is a very big issue of ethics in the American church. At the very least our raising of animals to human status is a symptom of deeper problems that many of us clearly see (right is wrong, men are women, etc.).

When it comes to animals we are blinded by years of Disney movies, emotions over intellect, devaluing of human life through widespread abortion, and twisting of truth into relativity.

I assume the tar and feathering will now commence :)

No problem here. I just stated that as a fact, not defending it. It's just the way I'm cut out when it comes to my dogs. I recognize your stance, and I freely recognize the superiority of the human soul, vs. animals which we're taught have no soul. I'm not entirely sure about dogs, though, one way or another on the soul issue. I've known some who were so loving and so courageous that I can't help but wonder and question whether at least some have something akin to a soul? That's just my wonderings based on what I've observed. What else can we use to edify ourselves but what we observe?

Sometimes, I wonder (no conclusions, just wonder) whether we sometimes interpret some of the passages in the Bible too narrowly and literally. If you have all the answers, you're smarter than I am. Maybe the dogs just instill in us something in OUR souls that will last for eternity? If you have it all figured out, you're smarter than I am, and I can only salute you for that. Until I find such answers for myself, though, I have to stick with what understandings and wonderments I have. Nobody can just accept another's answers. We HAVE to do our own due diligence if we're to really, truly believe.

The dog comment was more of a confession than an advocacy. But your point is well taken and duly noted anyway.

[Blackwater]

I believe it is unethical based on Christian values to value animals as equal to humans, which incidentally lowers humans value to that of animals. You end up with Christians that consider the inherent worth of their pet as equal to that of human children for instance. This raises ethical dilemmas. A house is on fire and you have time to save a dog or a child. If both are of equal value it is acceptable to save the dog and les e the child as there is no difference? Some animals exhibit homosexual activity therefore it must be natural and is ok. I have heard both of these arguments personally from followers of Christ. You see a man beating your child to death and you end his life. You see a man beating your dog to death and you do the same. These are ethical questions.

Again, point well taken and I have no disagreements with any principle you state, but I think you've misunderstood me. While I in NO way regard an animal's life as being "equal to" a human's, I still regard them as important enough and valuable enough that I'd never allow them to be abused or squandered, and if it took shooting someone to stop that, I am capable of that, though I'd hate it terribly. And if evil promotes a person to severely mistreat an animal, is it ethical to allow it in your presence, when you have the power to prevent it?

Say a dog is being severely beaten with a tire tool, and you tell the guy to stop, but he just curses at you and returns to his merciless beating. So you draw your gun to prevent a crime, and he laughs, and starts toward you. What would you do? I know what I would do, though it'd be hard. But I know what my personal ethics are, and I simply am not capable of giving in to and thus, being a part of allowing evil to reign.

I do most emphatically NOT equate a dog's life with that of a human's. In a fire, I'd absolutely go for the child, every time. But I cannot allow evil to have its way in my presence. If I'm ever found wrong because of that, then so be it. But I can't and won't allow it. It's just not in me to do that. Whether that's right or wrong will probably be argued forever. I make no pretense that it's either. It's just what I'd personally do, and just hope it was right. Sometimes, that's what ethics are really all about - personal decisions about right and wrong and what extents we might go to in order to maintain the good in this world.

And that's a part of why I asked the original question. I'm not totally settled in all respects on just what the real Christian ethic is, unless it's like the Golden Rule, and what ArrowJ said. Makes sense to me, but I just wondered what more there might be to it that I've just never personally run across.

[ArrowJ]

Well that is honest anyway. We certainly all have things we do or would do that we are not comfortable with...some of us just pretend we do not. Thank you.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for helping me clarify it all.

[buckwheatpaul]

Maybe I am taking this too simply .... but the Bible is the guide and It says that the way to Heaven and God is by sincerely declaring Jesus as our Savior and then to study the Bible and follow its teaching and to me that also includes putting others first by spreading the WORD and not having a hidden agenda that puts you first and at the expense of others....

[Blackwater]

Good point. As defined in the OP, I was just wondering if anyone had a clearly defined explanation for what our Christian ethic is, or ought to be. I find it interesting that we don't have one, or at least that I can find. Maybe we as a body ought to create one? I kind'a thought the Catholics might have one codified in the body of their theology. After all, they have a 1500 year head start on us Protestants, and they had those monks whose only job was to think and interpret and write about the Bible and what it all means. I'd expect them to have something like this before I would any of us Protestants, on account of that. Not being Catholic by denomination or taining, I just didn't know, and I've never heard of an officially codified version in our Protestant faith. The OP was just a feeler for some info on the subject. Thanks for what you've offered on it.

[Ickisrulz]

Good point. As defined in the OP, I was just wondering if anyone had a clearly defined explanation for what our Christian ethic is, or ought to be. I find it interesting that we don't have one, or at least that I can find.

How was my answer unacceptable to you? It is from the very mouth of Jesus.

[dtknowles]

Do no evil and make the world a better place

[claude]

Sometimes, I wonder (no conclusions, just wonder) whether we sometimes interpret some of the passages in the Bible too narrowly and literally.

And thereby limit God, I know I do at times, and somewhere down the road there will be another layer added to my understanding. and I'm sure there will be layers after that.


Maybe we as a body ought to create one?

With all due respect haven't men been trying to do that for thousands of years, and generally failing. IMHO, the wheel has already been invented.

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV) 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Sometimes love is hard, we know Jesus never sinned, we know He was perfect, so what can we take away from the incident of the money changers?



Matthew 21:12 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=Matthew_21.12) And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mark 11:15 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=Mark_11.15) And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
John 2:15 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=John_2.15) And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;


Jesus took a whip to them and kicked their butts, and being as He was perfect and never sinned, and practised love, I must conclude that they were driven out of the temple because He loved them enough to stop their sinning, at least for the moment.

This was no exception where He slipped one time, because He never slipped.

[Ickisrulz]

And thereby limit God, I know I do at times, and somewhere down the road there will be another layer added to my understanding. and I'm sure there will be layers after that.



With all due respect haven't men been trying to do that for thousands of years, and generally failing. IMHO, the wheel has already been invented.

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Sometimes love is hard, we know Jesus never sinned, we know He was perfect, so what can we take away from the incident of the money changers?



Matthew 21:12 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=Matthew_21.12) And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mark 11:15 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=Mark_11.15) And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
John 2:15 (http://av1611.com/verseclick/gobible.php?p=John_2.15) And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;


Jesus took a whip to them and kicked their butts, and being as He was perfect and never sinned, and practised love, I must conclude that they were driven out of the temple because He loved them enough to stop their sinning, at least for the moment.

This was no exception where He slipped one time, because He never slipped.

This is pretty much what I said in post #2. I am not sure how that didn't answer the question.

[claude]

This is pretty much what I said in post #2. I am not sure how that didn't answer the question.

I agree with you, and the simplicity of post #2, no one upmanship intended.

[Ickisrulz]

I agree with you, and the simplicity of post #2, no one upmanship intended.

I didn't think you were trying to one up me. I am just surprised at the original post's question because it is so readily apparent in scripture. But yet Blackwater seems to be looking for something different and I am not sure what.

[Ickisrulz]

Do no evil and make the world a better place

There were ethics prior to Jesus' time that said "do not do evil." The Christian ethic started by Jesus stated "do good." It is not just the opposite of evil, it is doing good for someone when they need it and you have the ability to do so. Evil might be stealing someone's food while good would be sharing your food with someone who has nothing to eat. Maybe you were thinking along these lines when you said "make the world a better place."

[dtknowles]

There were ethics prior to Jesus' time that said "do not do evil." The Christian ethic started by Jesus stated "do good." It is not just the opposite of evil, it is doing good for someone when they need it and you have the ability to do so. Evil might be stealing someone's food while good would be sharing your food with someone who has nothing to eat. Maybe you were thinking along these lines when you said "make the world a better place."

The short answer is, yes.

I am treading lightly in the Chapel and not arguing. The OP seemed to be looking for a simple straight forward statement, kind of like a Boyscout motto for Christians. Yes, the make the world a better place would including sharing your food with someone who has nothing to eat or help your neighbor paint his house or pick up trash in your neighborhood but it is more than do good things it includes not doing bad things that are not really evil (better to talk about the differences between Evil, bad and wrong some other place). Sometimes we only have bad choices or make a mistake but we can fix the damage we caused that is what "make the world a better place", leave the world a better place because you were here. Don't just take, give back more than you took. Some people might not think that this is required of Christians but I think the Bible tells us that God has entrusted this world to us and he expects us to take care of his creation.

I would like to leave this here without argument, if we might. It was just an Idea, I am not a Christian so if anyone does not think it fits I am fine with that. It is quite likely someone else can come up with something better.

Tim

[Blackwater]

How was my answer unacceptable to you? It is from the very mouth of Jesus.

I'm at a loss here. I didn't think I'd directed any dissatisfaction at any of your posts. What are you referring to, specifically?

[Blackwater]

I didn't think you were trying to one up me. I am just surprised at the original post's question because it is so readily apparent in scripture. But yet Blackwater seems to be looking for something different and I am not sure what.

No, I'm not really looking for something different. Just wondering if any denomination has codified it officially. I've never heard of such a "Christian Ethic" as being part of any denomination's body of beliefs, and just wondered if I'd missed such a thing somewhere. That's all.

And believe me, I did NOT miss your post #2. If I had to pick a verse that codified it for us all, that would have to be it, at least for me. But official governing bodies of our various Christian sects sometimes establish certain statements that sumarize and codify their essential beliefs, and I wasn't aware if any had actually done such a thing, and thought I'd ask. No big deal, really. Mostly, I was just showing my ignorance, probably, but it's only ignorant until you get a good answer. I'm totally satisfied with the ones here, for my part. It just seemed to be something we probably should have as a header for each of our sects, but I'd never heard of it, and wondered what I've missed. I feel better now if I haven't missed anything. But I can't help but wonder if it might not be a good thing for us to do, as a body of believers within our various sects, and maybe even across the board as Christians - sort of a universal statement of our collective ethic. That's probably a pipe dream, with all the in-fighting we often do, and particularly the leaders of the various sects. But it'd probably be beneficial for us if we just applied the principles the Lord laid down for us, individually and collectively. Again, no big deal. It was just a rather innocent inquiry about something that occurred to me. Thanks for the replies.

[Ickisrulz]

I'm at a loss here. I didn't think I'd directed any dissatisfaction at any of your posts. What are you referring to, specifically?

In post #13 you are still looking for an answer. So my post did not satisfy you. Since my answer is the summation of God's requirement for man, I am wondering what you are asking for. Is it a slogan of some sort or mission statement?

[Ickisrulz]

Of course there are the creeds...The Apostle's Creed and so forth. Maybe this is what you want.

[Plane340]

The Bible does codify an moral ethic. At least it is my belief that it does. Let me start out by saying I am not any denomination. I would probably consider myself a Messianic Christian. I believe the entire Bible is completely true and useful. I keep (to the best of my ability) all the commandments listed in the Torah (first five books) and the commandments of the New Testament. Some might mistake that I was trying to earn salvation. This is not the case. I fully accept that salvation is by grace alone, but I run from lawlessness out of gratitude to my King. It is how I show that I love and respect Him. Many told me that what I was doing would be a curse, but I have found the Torah to be a blessing beyond measure. Read Psalm 119, His Word is a light for my feet. I do not look down on others for not keeping Torah, nor do I feel I am superior. Torah is not for me to judge you with, it is for me to judge me with. Which is what the original question was about I believe.

[rl69]

Denominations or set up by man they have nothing to do with Christianity. Some people need to go to a priest to confess their sins. Some need rules to live by (don't cut your hair you can't wear short birches) there is nothing wrong with living like that, as long as you understand only threw Christ we are saved. We also need to understand just be use we need these things to fill like we are good Christians. Not everyone is the same. So we need to preach Christ's love,and trust that the lord will guide whoever we or witnessing to.

So if you want to drink drink,if you think it's wrong don't drink.just love one another, and don't worry about the speck in your neighborhood eye. Trust in the lord to teach him just as he is teaching you

[Boaz]

Lot to be said for rl69's post . The second great commandment does not target anyone to hate or call out .

[ArrowJ]

and don't worry about the speck in your neighborhood eye.

This is not actually what we are told to do. It says first remove the log from your eye and THEN you will be able to help your brother. The problem is that we tend to a) leave the log there and b) misinterpret Scripture to mean we are never to make judgments about fellow Christians behavior which simply is not what the Bible teaches or models.

[Ickisrulz]

This is not actually what we are told to do. It says first remove the log from your eye and THEN you will be able to help your brother. The problem is that we tend to a) leave the log there and b) misinterpret Scripture to mean we are never to make judgments about fellow Christians behavior which simply is not what the Bible teaches or models.

Outstanding. Yes that speck is causing pain and should be removed. The log Jesus asked us to watch for is in fact judgement/condemnation. When we judge/condemn we cannot help others.

[Plane340]

Whenever I feel the need to point out someone else's transgressions, I try and I hope that I am humble and gracious in my delivery. This is not always easy. But my heart must be aimed at restoration. Saying things to just prove I'm right or to prove how smart I am are often more harmful that the transgressions themselves. I first must earn the right to be heard by the person I am addressing. This is done through relationship. Again, not always the easiest path, but in the end is far more profitable.

[Blackwater]

Of course there are the creeds...The Apostle's Creed and so forth. Maybe this is what you want.

To tell the truth, I wasn't sure what I was looking for. Just asking a very open-ended question. And BTW, it wasn't that your answere wasn't satisfying at all. It's just that we Christians are a quite varied lot, and I was looking for all the input I could find on the matter, because it occurred to me that if we don't have a general Christian ethic, that covers all of Christianity's many sects, then maybe it might be functional to create one, though I don't believe we're adequate here to that task. It was just a very open-ended question, and one I didn't know the answer to, so I sought those answer(s) here. I'll never have a problem with your answer, and if it were in my power to create a general Christian ethic, I don't think I'd find a better one than what you stated. Open ended questions just seek as much input as possible from as many angles as might be pertinent, so please don't get your feelings hurt over it. You and I are on the same page very much.

[Blackwater]

There's SO much wisdom and understanding in all the stuff that's been said here! Thanks, guys. In a day and age when it's become "fashionable" to put down others so the putter downer can feel better about him/herself, it's really refreshing to see the "wisdom of the ages" hasn't gone the way of the dodo! And it never will, of course, but PC theology has made SO many inroads into our culture, even into many churches, that it's concerning whenever I see it. Truly, the "love of God" has become very significantly more wishy-washy than it's ever been before in history, I think. And yet, solid belief and wisdom from it still abound. It's just not published or talked about much any more, which allows the general ethic of cynicism to grow and expand ever more incrementally. It's good to see how many real believers and scrupulous practitioners of our beliefs there really are. We may differ here and there on this point or another, but Christianity is still very much alive and active in our land. This, I think, is our great hope today, and our great promise for tomorrow, whatever it might bring us to. How could it not be so?

[rl69]

This is not actually what we are told to do. It says first remove the log from your eye and THEN you will be able to help your brother. The problem is that we tend to a) leave the log there and b) misinterpret Scripture to mean we are never to make judgments about fellow Christians behavior which simply is not what the Bible teaches or models.


Thank you you you are 100% correct. I used that passage incorrectly. What I was trying to say is we need to stop holding others actions to the to the standard to which we are led. the lord convicted me to stop drinking but that doesn't give me the right to condemn other for drinking.

With that said if I see a brother destroying his life and family with alcohol I need to go too him and try to get him back on the right path. But if we do this it needs to be done with love and after much prayer.

Agin thank you for pointing this out.please if I ever post something that goes Gods word correct me.

[DerekP Houston]

Thank you you you are 100% correct. I used that passage incorrectly. What I was trying to say is we need to stop holding others actions to the to the standard to which we are led. the lord convicted me to stop drinking but that doesn't give me the right to condemn other for drinking.

With that said if I see a brother destroying his life and family with alcohol I need to go too him and try to get him back on the right path. But if we do this it needs to be done with love and after much prayer.

Agin thank you for pointing this out.please if I ever post something that goes Gods word correct me.

Sigh again I have been proven to be inferior to 1000+ year old knowledge. I am guilty of holding others to my standard and bringing a fury upon them if not met. Thanks for the info guys. I will try my best to do better at that, to me many things are simply right or wrong with no gray area.

How could I have been this wrong for so long =/.

[Blackwater]

It's called "being human," Derek. And not one of us here has missed that little detail. We've all fallen short, misunderstood, assumed stuff we shouldn't have, and if there's any way for us to err, I doubt we've missed any of them. But Christ doesn't care about all that. All that He cares about is where we end up. One of the most difficult things for me to come to an understanding of, is how He can, once we become Christian, and make our profession of faith however our denomination may do that, was to accept that the things we'd done before that just go "poof," and disappear in a cloud of smoke as far as the Lord is concerned. It's the Grace extended to us by virtue of the blood He shed on the cross, dying in our stead, that allows Him to do that. Can there be a more humbling thing than that? And it took me years to come to understand and accept how that works. I guess I'm just a low learner. If I have an asset, it's probably that I just never seem to quit with things, until they're resolved. Even that can be a burden at times, though. Ain't it fun being human? Or at least humorous?